[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Should you open an airport location? Find out everything you need to know next on the Brewbound podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.
[00:00:21] Jessica Infante: And I'm Jessica Infante.
[00:00:23] Justin Kendall: And Zoe is traveling. So she's not joining us this week, but look for her next week. I hope so.
[00:00:31] Jessica Infante: We'll see.
[00:00:31] Justin Kendall: Yeah. Should she ever return?
[00:00:34] Jessica Infante: Zoe's long weekend has gotten a lot longer thanks to flight cancellations. But fortunately for her, she's flying out of SeaTac where she could visit the brewtop social concept that our podcast guest this week worked on.
[00:00:47] Justin Kendall: Oh, look at that. What a transition. You should be proud of that one. Thank you. As we mentioned, we've got a featured interview this week with Experience 3 founder Liz Einhorn. Jess and I both chatted with her and she really breaks down and gets into the weeds on what you need to know if you're even considering doing this and if you shouldn't consider this.
[00:01:13] Jessica Infante: Really insightful conversation. Liz is an old buddy of mine and she has been doing her own thing now for, I think she said nine years. Liz does a lot of consulting work for hospitality groups, but one of her specialties is airport concessions. So she has helped various taprooms set up airport locations. She also has great advice for if you just want to get your beer in the airport in general. So really great chat with Liz and I'm excited for everybody to hear it.
[00:01:42] Justin Kendall: Stay tuned for that. And if you want to hop on an airplane and go to Los Angeles in December, we'd love to have you. December 9th and 10th, we're going to be doing Brewbound Live. Once again, did you know that the Firestone Walker party is returning again? I did know that and I am thrilled. I am too. I love that party.
[00:02:03] Jessica Infante: Great time, as always. We also have a couple of new speakers to announce, right?
[00:02:08] Justin Kendall: Yeah, bringing back our draft conversation that we had a couple of years ago with NBWA VP of Analytics and Chief Economist Lester Jones and DraftLine founder Jen Hawk. They're going to talk about why this year is all about occasions and not volume. And Lester is really pushing that idea. And I think that's been borne out a lot with what we've seen through the World Cup. Thank you, international visitors. And hopefully we can carry that on into the fall with college football and NFL and Brewbound Live. Well, Brewbound Live is obviously an occasion. It is a social occasion.
[00:02:51] Jessica Infante: You know, I was just reading a story right before you and I hopped on about how Massachusetts is exploring the idea of designating fun zones, where basically they loosened a few things for World Cup time and they want to keep it going, which was like a 3 a.m. last call, which not for me, but I hope everybody has fun and like designated outdoor consumption areas. So could be cool.
[00:03:15] Justin Kendall: I remember Trillium and all the beer gardens that pop up during the summer and all those spaces were packed.
[00:03:23] Jessica Infante: I think when you live in a land where winter really sucks, summer itself is an occasion.
[00:03:28] Justin Kendall: Yeah, unless you're here and it's 110.
[00:03:30] Jessica Infante: Yeah, you could really use the nice cooling sea breezes that we get here in the Northeast.
[00:03:35] Justin Kendall: Yeah, I do miss the sea breezes, but mentioned Firestone Walker. You could work at Firestone Walker. They have a big job opening now. Brand director. You could work on a lot of cool brands like Kali Squeeze. Did you notice that?
[00:03:50] Jessica Infante: I did notice that.
[00:03:52] Justin Kendall: That is not my encouragement for you to apply.
[00:03:54] Jessica Infante: Oh, me personally.
[00:03:55] Justin Kendall: Well, yeah, no, no. The you is like a royal you. Oh, yes.
[00:04:00] Jessica Infante: I was going to say, are you telling me to quit?
[00:04:02] Justin Kendall: No.
[00:04:03] Jessica Infante: I don't want to move and I don't want to go back to marketing. But yeah, Hannah Barnett, who had graced these airwaves a little bit ago, she seems to be moving on and they are looking for her backfill.
[00:04:15] Justin Kendall: Yeah. Could be you. Could be you. Also, you could be a brewer at the aforementioned Trillium. They've got one listed. Weldworks has a brewer job listed. You could work there in Colorado. Lots of great jobs out there. And if you are hiring, the Brewbound job board is the place to go to find your next star hire. So check it all out. Let's get into the news. And it's a wild news week. So where do you want to start? Pick your poison.
[00:04:45] Jessica Infante: I think the story that you wrote this morning is going to need the most airtime. So I think we could knock some stuff out real quick.
[00:04:51] Justin Kendall: Let's start with James Watt. He's trying to buy back BrewDog. He's made an offer to Tilray. I think Tilray has filed that into its cabinet and probably isn't paying much attention to it. But what do I know?
[00:05:04] Jessica Infante: I would assume that this is now just becoming to them a bit of a, like a mat situation. Like there is this buzzing that keeps happening around us and we don't know what's going on. But yeah, James said that he made an offer. Amount of the offer was not disclosed. The amount of the first offer that he made before Tilray had officially acquired BrewDog, that was revealed in some reporting out of London. Supposedly James offered 30 million pounds for his second bid to buy BrewDog, which comes obviously after the first one before Tilray had bought BrewDog, so he is back again offering Tilray money now, whereas previously I guess he was offering the bank. the money. First time around, he was willing to put up 10 million pounds of his own money in the offer that was ultimately rejected. Tilray paid 41 million pounds for the brand earlier this year and has invested another 50 million pounds to stabilize it. So I don't think they're going to find James's offer too attractive.
[00:06:04] Justin Kendall: No, and they've called BrewDog their crown jewel, I believe, or one of their crown jewels. It really seems to be the brand that they're really investing in. So I would be shocked if Erwin said, yeah, here you go.
[00:06:19] Jessica Infante: They just waited for that UNO discard pile to build up and they finally got the one card that they had been waiting for. I hope it makes the 20 other UNO cards in their hand worth it.
[00:06:28] Justin Kendall: Well, they've offloaded at least one of those UNO cards.
[00:06:31] Jessica Infante: At least one. And James was very excited to see that.
[00:06:35] Liz Einhorn: Yeah. Mark your calendar. Brewbound Live is back on December 9th and 10th in Los Angeles. Join brewers, distributors, investors, suppliers, and industry partners for two days of beer and beverage alcohol conversations, fresh perspectives, and product discovery. Early registration pricing is available now. Head to brewboundlive.com to register.
[00:06:55] Justin Kendall: Again, another story that you covered, and that's leadership changes at the National Black Brewers Association.
[00:07:01] Jessica Infante: Yeah. At the NB2A, we only recently learned that a founding executive director, Kevin Asato, departed the organization a little quietly back in April, and they are now shifting to a board-led model, which I think will be good for them. Board President Annie McGinnis, who is a co-owner and business development manager for Vine Street Brewing, is now in charge and running the show. And she's called their board down to just four, and I assume Annie didn't make that decision entirely by herself. I'm sure they all decided to do it together, but they had a previously had a really sizable board, which can be good, but can be bad, you know, I think it's going to be much easier for them to be a lot more nimble and decisive when they're down to just four liters. And so in addition to Annie on the board, there's also Rich Bloomfield from Funky Town, he is the treasurer. And then there's two vice presidents, Garrett Oliver, Brooklyn Brewery Brewmaster, he's the first vice president. And Ale Sharpton, Piano Keys founder, is second vice president. And they've got a lot going on this year. Annie and I chatted really quickly last week. They've got a special hot blend from Roy Farms called Velvet Cake. You can purchase that from the farm and proceeds will go to NB2A. Their ongoing brewing equipment grant program is still on. So if you've got some equipment that is just taking up space in your brew house and you want it to find its next home, definitely reach out to the MB2A because they will be able to direct it to a Black-owned brewery that is in need of equipment. And it's kind of a win-win for everybody. Great program.
[00:08:36] Justin Kendall: I agree with you. Great program. And looking forward to seeing what Annie and the board can do with the MB2A moving forward. Let's talk a little bit about Ballast Point Brewing Company and what's going on there because Ballast Point is wrapped up in a pretty serious couple of lawsuits, it looks like, among its ownership factions. There's one owner who allegedly took out $3 million in loans that he didn't clear through the board or even disclose to the CEO. And that has left Ballast Point in peril from what it sounds like in these court records. This was a doozy of a story that you wrote.
[00:09:19] Jessica Infante: this morning, and I would just like to know what financial institution is handing out money to a company without vetting. To me, this seems like everything was just kind of, oh, Bellis Point, I know them. Great. Here's millions of dollars. Like, what went on?
[00:09:36] Justin Kendall: It's a pretty wild story. I don't think I've seen a lawsuit like this ever while covering the brewing industry. There's not one that I can remember that just my jaw hit the floor the more I read about it.
[00:09:48] Jessica Infante: I think we need to give people a refresher on their ownership situation because it's not quite as simple as kings and convicts bought this brewery.
[00:09:56] Justin Kendall: Yeah. So last August, you wrote a story about them taking on new investors. And one of those investors was William Grow. I believe that's how you say his last name. I might have it wrong, but he joined along with a hospitality group. They all invested in Ballast Point. From what I've read in the lawsuit, it looks like Gros Trust has a majority stake in Kings and Convict Holding, while this other hospitality group, It holds, I want to say it's like a 30-some percent share. And then Brendan Waters, who we've talked to before, who was with Kings and Convicts, has a...
[00:10:40] Jessica Infante: He's the convict of the King and the Convict, which is not to say that he is actually a convict, but they named the brewery after one of them being British and one being Australian.
[00:10:49] Justin Kendall: Yeah, so John Corey Ventures is his deal and it maintains a 10% stake in the business. So that's kind of how things set up. Although there's all kinds of convoluted ownership within this ownership and they've got like a deadlock on the board between Grow and this hospitality professional.
[00:11:09] Jessica Infante: He didn't come in with a hospitality group, right?
[00:11:12] Justin Kendall: Renzella did. They all invested at the same time. It was all part of that August announcement. But things appear to have fallen apart shortly after that investment, according to the court records. That was in August. The court records say, I'm just going to call him Dill going forward. I love that. He starts taking out these loans. The first is from Libertas Funding. And according to the lawsuit, they don't even know the amount. But there have been three installment payments of more than $70,000 total. Then in December of last year, he takes out a cash advance of $1.25 million from this group called City Capital NY. It's a New York-based cash advance company under Madison Group. And the repayment amount on that is more than $1.8 million. And it has weekly installment payments of more than $90,000. I was shook when I read that because I don't even know how you get out from under something like that.
[00:12:14] Jessica Infante: No. As like, I don't know, a 30,000 barrel a year craft brewery?
[00:12:18] Justin Kendall: Yeah. No way. It's like nothing I've ever seen before. So these three loans, they total around $3 million. And the lawsuit alleges that to take these out, Bill, he allegedly forged documents to make it look like he's got 100 percent control of the company and that way he could leverage these assets. He claims that he has personally guaranteed these loans and that he's already paid back $2 million. But on the company side, they're saying, look, we've got one distributor, Columbia Distributing is what they said, has already told them that they're going to withhold payments because the cash advance company has sent the distributor a letter saying, we're going to garnish these earnings. Oh my God. And so that's part of it. They've got bank accounts that are frozen that they can't access. They're saying if this continues, we're not going to be able to pay people. We're not going to be able to produce product. We're not going to be able to operate, period. And it could sink the company.
[00:13:27] Jessica Infante: I'm surprised it hasn't already. This sounds crazy. And I guess we'll just keep watching. I mean, to put a little context on your story, I went into the old BA records and in 2016, which was the year after Constellation Brands had bought Ballast Point, Ballast Point's output was like over 430,000 barrels. And now we're down to 30,000 barrels. So I mean, a lot of things have gone on with this brewery between now and then. but to just have 400,000 barrels of beer evaporate is crazy town.
[00:14:05] Justin Kendall: Another thing was they came after their Stripe point of sale money. Oh, shit. Yeah. So it's just like they're getting hit from all ends is what it looks like in this lawsuit. All allegations not proven. Got to work its way through the court system. Bill, though, does have four other civil lawsuits filed against him in San Diego County Superior Court. That's just something else that's out there. I don't know very much about those because those are all pretty well locked down from what I can see as far as an access point. It looks like you gotta go to the courthouse to get access to those, but he's named in those.
[00:14:46] Jessica Infante: Well, fortunately for you, you are going to San Diego.
[00:14:49] Justin Kendall: I don't know that I'm gonna make a trip to the courthouse, but maybe that helps me expense this trip.
[00:14:53] Jessica Infante: There you go. Yeah. That is banana town. Lord.
[00:14:58] Justin Kendall: Those are sort of the big stories out there. We've got Boston Beer earnings that'll hit the site this week. By the time you're listening to this, it might already be on the site. Stay tuned for that. And we just got a whole lot more coming. The hits keep coming.
[00:15:14] Jessica Infante: They do. The 21A offer in compromise.
[00:15:18] Justin Kendall: The struggle is real.
[00:15:19] Jessica Infante: The struggle is real out there, yeah. The TCB sent out an email on Friday, as they do, saying that they had reached an offer in compromise with 21st Amendment Brewery, which they claimed owed excise taxes to the tune of $1.2 million, racked up between 2018 and 2025. This has nothing to do with 21A's recent news of a few months ago, having their brand rights acquired by evil genius. And they settled with the federal government to provide $423,000 And that was accepted. And now I would just like to know if I can do the same with my federal loan service provider, because that's a pretty good deal.
[00:15:59] Justin Kendall: I'm always shocked at these offers and compromise. I know that the government is like, well, you know, this is what we're going to get.
[00:16:06] Jessica Infante: Exactly. So same for me, you know. But something I think, not that I didn't realize, but also it's like usually the contract brewer, which is what they were doing a lot of out of that brewery in San Leandro, the contract brewer is responsible for excise taxes on the contract produced volume. So I could see maybe there's some mix-ups here and there and it was, do you pay? Do I pay? Who knows? And we just don't have to pay the government as much as we're supposed to. So Department of Ed, I'd like to make a deal.
[00:16:39] Justin Kendall: Call them up, see what you can do.
[00:16:41] Jessica Infante: I'm sure that'll go over really well. Yeah. Sorry to sneak a surprise news story in on you.
[00:16:47] Justin Kendall: No, you can check all that out at Brewbound.com. Become an insider today. Let's get to our featured interview with Experience 3's Liz Einhorn.
[00:16:58] Jessica Infante: Our guest today is Liz Einhorn, dear friend of mine and the founder of Experience3, a hospitality consulting firm. Liz, thanks for being here. How you doing, bud? I'm great. Thanks for having me. It's so fun to like bring your friend to work day. It is bring your friend to work day. And this is not nepotism at all, because you are absolutely like the foremost expert that I can think of in this space that we're going to talk about. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Almost 20 years. Summer and vacations and travel on the brain made me think about airport beers, which I would say are, you know, a top five all time beer. And this is you. You are the expert that I think of when I think of airport concessions and all of that great, great stuff. So before we dig in, you've got a journey that got you here and I know it. But how about you talk to us about the journey that led you to starting Experience 3 so the audience knows about it as well?
[00:17:52] Speaker 1: Sure. So we know each other from working together at Boston Beer. I spent a decade at Boston Beer, and I had a really atypical career track there. I did sales locally in Philly, where I'm based, and I was really interested in national accounts on premise. And this job opened that was like national accounts airports. And I raised my hand, and I remember the HR person at the time was like, are you willing to travel 85% of the time? And I was like, yeah, let's go. And they're like, what do you know about beer at airports? And I was like, I know that there's planes and I know that people really enjoy to drink beer at airports. And they were like, okay, great. And then I started doing more and more research and I've always, you know, obviously my backgrounds in sales, but always been a huge brand and marketing nerd. And I got to see firsthand in the several years I spent in that role, not only managing distribution of products, working with the different restaurateurs that are commonly referred to as concessionaires in the airport, working with them to increase our visibility in airports and points of distribution and all that jazz, but also got to manage and oversee the Boston Beer branded concept program. So if you see Sam Adams Toast Atlanta or The Meeting House or Brew Club, things like that. That program was my baby. So it was really cool to kind of see expressions of brands come to life. And I was at Boston Beer from 2007 to 2017, which was such like a juicy, innovative time. I was part of the team because I was in this unique sales role that had national scope. I was part of the team that helped take Angry Orchard National when anything and everything from Just Beer to Coney Island to extensions of Twisted T and Sam and then truly like getting to see that firsthand and do it on a large scale was super fun. And I loved it and I love traveling and growing brands and talking to people and from airports that got promoted to working with chain restaurants and on-premise chains, which had been my initial goal. And then I started three. So it's three E's, explore, educate, engage. That's the framework that we use to work with clients on growth strategy. And I've had the agency for nine years now, which, you know, I blinked and it's been nine years, which is incredible. And so a lot of the work that we do, because it is so niche is folks helping grow in the airport space, whether that's an expression of their brand in an airport, so translating what they do on the street, and then creating a concept around that, managing the business development path for that, and then also working with brands to kind of figure out as part of their organic growth, do airports make sense for us? So it's been very fun. In addition to working with brands, I also created a brand that's a restaurant that I opened in 22 with my partner there called Brewtop Social, which celebrates the beers, wines, and spirits of the Pacific Northwest. So that's super fun. And if you're flying through SeaTac, give us a visit. But yeah, it's been a blast. And I'm excited to chat with the beer experts today on your thoughts on airport beers too.
[00:20:56] Justin Kendall: You said something there that I wanted to dive a little deeper into and that's an airport concept. Is it right for you? What are the boxes that you have to check for that to be the right decision?
[00:21:09] Speaker 1: So you'll hear me say this a lot. It's really cheesy, but when you've seen one airport, you've seen one airport. They're all different. So there's not a universal black and white truth of like, this space will work. This brand will work. There's so many variables, but. First and foremost, I would encourage folks to think about their production capability. Without a doubt, airports are a phenomenal place for beer brands and even extensions of breweries, whether it's cider or mead or seltzers or any expression of themselves to get brand exposure. You've got a captive audience. But to answer your question, the first thing in terms of criteria, make sure you have the production to handle the output of what's required. More often than not, it's heavy volume, and it's not the easiest in terms of getting deliveries and things like that. You know, there's certain times that you can deliver, there's certain volumes you need to do, there's certain security measures you have to go through. So there's a lot of challenges that requires a lot of patience. In terms of like the styles of beer, think about who the audience is. It's every single demographic is under the sun, but you have folks that are either trying to grab something really quickly or they might have a longer layover or they might be delayed. But you want to think about offering styles that may be a lower ABV or more sessionable. Think about the occasion of like how they're going to consume it, what they're going to consume it with. I applaud, I'm always so excited about innovation and what folks are brewing and kind of pushing the boundaries of beer. The airport might not be the place to try your like funky monkey super sour. There's only so much room, so you have to factor that in too. You're working with spaces that are smaller footprints, airports as like an entity, their infrastructure was not essentially built. for restaurants. So as much as food concessions are a core element of what we experience as travelers and consumers, you know, back of house, plumbing, electric, things like that, things that we need for draft systems might not be there.
[00:23:14] Justin Kendall: What's a volume floor to even consider this as an option for a brewer?
[00:23:21] Speaker 1: Listen, not every airport, like I said, is built the same and not every space even within the airport. When we think about airports, if we're putting together pro forma or putting together projections, we think about in-planing customers. So in airports, you've got in-planements and de-planements. De-planements are the people getting off the plane. They're probably not going to have a beer unless they have a layover. They might grab a water bottle before they leave. Otherwise, they're headed to their destination. In playments, you can have people that, or have terminals that have hundreds of thousands of people walking through them daily. Now that's the higher end of the scope. If we think about in terms of draft beer, you know, low end, maybe one to two kegs a week. And then I've also seen 20 kegs a week. It's pretty significant, or it can be pretty significant. I also think that's having the right brand selection too.
[00:24:10] Justin Kendall: Absolutely.
[00:24:11] Jessica Infante: 20 kegs a week is crazy talk.
[00:24:15] Speaker 1: Again, that's the high end. Let me be very clear. That is not every airport. That is not every space in the airport. There's some airports, just like restaurants, where good, bad or otherwise, the beer sits on the line. We don't want that. We want volume. We want things that are going to move. I've been so excited since you reached out to me last week about coming on and chatting with you guys about this. And I don't know if it was just the phenomenon of something is top of mind, so then you see it more. But I just read about Great Lakes opening at Cleveland Airport, which I think is a long time coming. Like, to me, that is a perfect example of a quintessential, like, Cleveland actually, I think, has a great food and beverage scene. And it's not talked about as much as other places, but to have something like Great Lakes, that's indicative of what Cleveland is. The beers are popular. They're well-known. They're approachable. Like, I think that's exciting. Two silos just opened in the D.C. area. They have a brewpub concept. So I think we're going to see more and more, not just beers coming to airports, but more breweries having expressions of their concepts.
[00:25:19] Jessica Infante: So what are the steps that make these airport concepts possible? Because when you and I debriefed a little bit last week, we talked about how most often they are not owned by the brewery. So there's probably a lot of steps in between here and there. What do brewery owners need to know?
[00:25:35] Speaker 1: That's an understatement. So yes, more often than not, again, every airport is its own unique footprint. But from a procurement standpoint, more often than not, there's RFPs, requests for proposals, that go out for concessions programs. they will be identified as food, beverage, retail, and they typically come out in packages. So it's not one single location. So it's something where I've had breweries or restaurateurs come to me and they're like, we want to open in the airport and we want to open it ourselves. And I'm like, well, the airport that you're interested in, the package that's available, if there's a package even available, these are also cyclical. So it's not something where like, this isn't a rolling system. of, you know, every year something comes out. These spaces have anywhere from seven to 15 year lease terms. So there can be times where in terms of the cycle, it's not something where it happens automatically. That's where it goes back to your first, your initial question, Justin, of like, where and what do the brands need to be prepared for? And it's like, this is where patience, it's a long game. It can be a long game, it can be a lot of like, hurry up and wait. But in terms of the steps, this is working off of theoretical. There's procurement that's out there. Follow the airport. Airports are very vocal. When they have concessions programs going out, look at their social, look at their websites. More often than not, airports will have outreach meetings. And at those outreach meetings, whether it's the airport authority themselves, or their management, or if they use a developer, those entities, those stakeholders will go through like, okay, this terminal, these spaces are coming out. They're also usually marked. So it's not just something that it's like, Terminal 1, Spaces 1 through 10 are open. It'll be like Spaces 1 through 10 are open in Terminal 1, but Space 1 is coffee. Space two is Mexican. Space three is quick serve grab and go. So where those spaces, you want them to A, see if there's something that their brand could be a fit. I should have clarified this before I started jabbering, but these are the steps for them to have a physical concept.
[00:27:46] Jessica Infante: Great.
[00:27:46] Speaker 1: So I would say then at these outreach meetings, they can reach out to the airport and say, we're interested in doing business with the airport. They can find out who the concessionaires are that are currently in the airport. Consultants like myself are usually at these meetings because we're there on behalf of our clients. I refer to all the concessionaires as the alphabet soup gang because it's like HMS, SSP, OTG. You just put a couple consonants together and then they're there hanging out. Talk to people, talk to your communities. Airports can be overwhelming and the timing is long, but the potential is outstanding. And the steps for folks to do it is research the opportunities, see if there are things available, and then track it. So we have brands that have certain markets that they're looking at, and we know that the airport isn't going to have anything coming out for three years. So we have benchmarks that that like in a year and a half, we'll start having conversations on their behalf, because it's usually folks to get prepared for these procurements. I mean, some of these deals are worth gazillions of dollars because it's multiple packages and a high volume airport. So they're planning in advance, because usually when the Again, every airport, every procurement, this is such a nuanced space. So they all will vary, but usually from the time that they release it to the time that you submit your bid for consideration is like a 90 day period, roughly. So it moves really quickly. It's a lot of hurry up and wait. airports are not easy to get into. If they were, everyone would be in them.
[00:29:16] Jessica Infante: Totally. I feel like the easy connection to think is, oh, if I'm in the airport, we'll get tourists to our city visiting our brewery. But that's not really the direction that the foot traffic is going to flow. You're not going to have somebody get off the plane in the airport, go to your tap room in the airport and have a beer and then like come see your brewery. Because usually, like you mentioned, like you'll get people who are about to get on a plane, not the people who got off the plane.
[00:29:41] Speaker 1: Again, it varies, like, I mean, how consumers and how humans are going to react to certain brands is going to vary. But that's, to me, like, that's the coolest part about being in the airport is that it really is an interactive billboard. Treat it the way, like, if you're investing in, you know, putting a billboard up on a highway, coming or going, people will see it. So they're not necessarily stopping in and climbing to, like, sit on top of the billboard and be like, here we are. So I think it's something that if they don't stop there, they still get the exposure or there'll be that muscle memory of like they pass it and then they're out and about and they're like, oh, this is here. Airports require a lot of time and attention. There's a reason why I have a job and I've had an agency for nine years. It's something where it's like this is not a set it and forget it moment. If this is something that you think is an opportunity for you, you want to dedicate time and resources to it in terms of like, are there opportunities to sample at the airport? Like to me, that's a better pass through in terms of like, if you can not only get the exposure, which is so valuable, but also have like an experiential moment. I think that's something that's cool. I think that since COVID, we've seen from a marketing perspective, because there's such a ramp up of digital menu boards and QR codes, good, bad or otherwise, because that's there, consumers and travelers in the airport can absorb information and get exposure to stuff way quicker. You can see from a distribution standpoint, which is another thing to consider, I mean, If there's not an opportunity right away to get a concept, it doesn't mean like you said there's twiddling your thumbs. Like, is there an opportunity that you can get distribution and then have proof of concept that, you know, you got your product into XYZ location and in the two years it was there, it was the top draft line. Those are things that when you submit for a bit, it's about crafting a narrative for why you make sense in that space and who your guest is and things like that. It's challenging, but that's part of the fun. That's what sparks me up is like figuring out, OK, how do we craft our story in a way that we can not only like push volume, drive awareness, do all of that, but like be a good partner to both the concessionaire that, you know, is serving our product or executing our concept and the airport themselves. I also would encourage the folks that are looking at stuff to use your wholesaler as a resource. Like that was something when, and you and I talked about this last week, that was a huge opportunity when we were putting together kind of like the metrics for Brewtop Social was like relying on the wholesaler networks that were out there, and we had two core wholesalers that we did a bunch with and still continue to do a lot with in the Pac Northwest market, because we could then operationally make it easier for our teams. They're not getting 18 different deliveries a day. If you self-distribute airports, it's not impossible, but it's much harder.
[00:32:33] Jessica Infante: Let's move on to that part of all of this is the, let's say you're not quite ready for your own concept, but you do want to start selling into the airports. How does that process even work and how can you get started?
[00:32:45] Speaker 1: Again, it's going to vary by market, but I would kind of start with like, how have you approached other, you know, national on-premise accounts? Do you have chain activity? Do you work currently with high-volume locations? If you're in four on-premise locations and the bulk of your stuff is an off-premise, jumping to airports next might not be the most logical step. So I think it's self-awareness is key. So sometimes the path to the airport doesn't mean you're immediately going into the airport. You also want to showcase proof of concept. There's only so much room, literally. It's like a fight for real estate in the airport. Because again, we talked about the airport infrastructure themselves. They don't necessarily have walk-ins. They don't have storage there. So how are you, how are you stacking and doing things in a way that like, you know, stack them high, watch them fly in the airport is great in theory, but you want to make sure that the space warrants that. So it's like, how are you relevant in your own geography if you're going to be in the airport? It's hard because it's so varied by market of how they get in. I also think going back to, and this is something where you can reach out to the airport, you can look at the airport's websites, you can look up the different concessionaires. When you think about how and what we're going to do this, don't be afraid of great opportunities, but just make sure you prepare accordingly so you and the concessionaire are set up for success. Because what you don't want is you don't wanna, and I'm not trying to sound threatening, but you don't wanna get in the airport, have an out-of-stock within two weeks, and then you're never working with that person again anytime soon. So I think it's something where no one wants to go into something and not do great at it. So make sure that you have the metrics in place of what worked when you were in other high-activity, high-volume locations. What was that process like? How can you work with your wholesaler on it? Are there opportunities through the wholesaler? Can you leverage things within their portfolio? So you're one of multiple brands underneath their umbrella that goes in. Is that an avenue that you can explore? Again, this will vary by location, by concessionaire, by airport, but it can never hurt to have the conversation.
[00:34:57] Jessica Infante: So you don't want to, let's say, open up your first airport draft line with like a rotating IPA that you only made a handful of sixles of.
[00:35:07] Speaker 1: the consumer in me is like, yeah, cool. I want that.
[00:35:12] Jessica Infante: I want to report IPA.
[00:35:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, like I want to be able to go and like have this beer that I can only have here. And I've seen situations where we do programming like that. And it's awesome, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of research. And it's not something that is it's not the first. I also wouldn't to things that you have limited amounts of or seasonals, like be really cognizant of seasonals and seasonal transitions. You know, to me, I think a seasonal in an airport is outstanding in the sense that you have limited real estate, you can rotate what's going on. I brought up like we have more digital menu access now. So that helps too. Historically, when we had to print menus, like transitioning stuff was challenging, right? And if you're just writing just as brewery seasonal, you kind of lose some of the the whole intention of why you wanted to be there in the first place of the brand exposure. But now, you know, digitally, you can change things in a flash. So it opens up a lot more opportunity to be there. But you just want to make sure that you're accounting for the right volumes.
[00:36:16] Justin Kendall: I'm sure this varies from airport to airport, but a lot of the traffic is folks either going for work, they're going on vacations, they're going for whatever reason. And I'm curious how perceived value of an item factors in versus the actual cost as far as providing value within an airport space. How do you sort of view that?
[00:36:42] Speaker 1: Great question. I was wondering if the $27 beers at the airport would come up. Because more often than not, they do. So again, in terms of perceived value, I would start with thinking about who the carriers are in the terminal. So it's not just thinking about the space, like if I talked about how there's certain use clauses that you have in terms of like, this space is designated for fast casual or coffee or ethnic or grab and go, whatever. But if you have something where it's set up and it's in a lower carrier terminal and it's set up to be like more of a family-friendly casual dine, then again that also comes down to your product selection. I'm not saying that it should be all domestic lights, but you also think about like from your product lineup like what is going to make sense so that the sticker shock isn't going to scare someone. Typically in airports, anything in terms of pricing, because we know that airports and concessions in general are higher than what you see on the street, it's a 10 to 15 percent increase. Now, if somebody is a leisure traveler versus if someone's a business traveler, there's also usually a difference in terms of how they're approaching it. There's also there's something of vacation mentality. The airport has no rules in the sense that, like, you could drink four IPAs at 6 a.m. It also has no rules that if those four IPAs happen to be $60 because they were 15 bucks a pop and they would have been $6 on the street, it's kind of just, that's what happens in the airport.
[00:38:09] Jessica Infante: So we've talked a little bit about craft breweries, as in Great Lakes, as being a great example of a brand that translates to an airport. But what about other parts of Bavalc? Like, could an RTD brand pull off a successful airport concept?
[00:38:22] Speaker 1: I mean, I think in general, the kind of expressions of brands, I mean, Truly has, I know that's a seltzer, not an RTD. I mean, I guess they have like the Truly Vodka. They have a space in Atlanta. There is, I believe, I want to say it's either Fort Lauderdale or somewhere in Florida. There's an RTG one. I'm not saying it's impossible. I think that it's like if it's the only thing that's open, people would go. I mean, that's the joy of you're there. It's a captive audience. But to me, I do think the airport is a little bit of the upside down of like when you look at total industry and beverage trends. Spirit-based RTDs are what's been driving growth, but that would never be my first go-to in terms of if I was building a concession in an airport. In fact, in general, when I'm advising on beverage programs and things like that, very big proponent of RTDs on the street and airports, unless the airport, and this is another complicated layer. If the airport has a stadium license, meaning that you can be at said, like, you're in terminal one, location one, you get your tacos and your, you know, margarita RTG to go. If it's a stadium license, I can then take it outside of the confines of what the lease lines are for that space. Then I'm more inclined to encourage a client to have RTGs available. Otherwise, in terms of margins, unless you're giving your product away, which nobody wants to do, like be in the airport to have it be successful for you, what I can make pouring a vodka soda is never going to compare to an RTD. With the exception of, and again, I'm based in Philadelphia, so I see this firsthand, if you said to me that Stateside or Surfside was going to do like a pop up in the Philly airport, that would be to me the exception of something that I think you've got a market that it's home market. It's something where it's a great brand that's had a lot of traction. It's super exciting. The brand itself lends itself to a concept. It's high impactful colors. It's something that as food and beverage programs and concessions and airports continue to be elevated, it's impactful enough that it could potentially grab people. But otherwise, do I see a world in which there will be a high noon pub? I mean, it's the airport. Anything can happen. But I would think that a local craft brewery would probably have more traction. Like beer continues to be such a strong player in the airports. And there's something about beer so overstimulated when you're in airports. And there's so much going on that having just a beer and a burger in an airport, it hits different because it's like, OK, I'm safe.
[00:41:00] Justin Kendall: How prolific are stadium licenses in airports?
[00:41:05] Speaker 1: It's I would have, I mean, and it varies based on, you know, you can have some terminals that have it, some that don't. Oh, that's crazy. Well, yeah, because it depends on the carrier. It depends on, you know, we have to factor in whether or not it makes sense. It depends on if there's a lounge there and like they'll have stuff, you know, folks can't bring alcohol onto the planes. Obviously, if it's duty free, it's they can bring if they've purchased something from duty free. They can bring that on the airplane, but it needs to be sealed and can't bring open containers. on the planes which as a consumer sometimes I wish I could but also as a traveler it's probably for the best in terms of like minimal shenanigans. It's a great question but I would have a hard time kind of giving you it's this percentage because it's just it varies so much.
[00:41:54] Jessica Infante: Minimal shenanigans sounds like it would be
[00:41:58] Speaker 1: Would that actually be a fun airport bar name? That's what I was thinking. Yeah. My dream is I just want to open, as somebody that lives in airports, I just want to open a retail shop that's called Should I Left at Home that has one sock, contact lens case, all the things. That's what we want. And I would sell beer and RTDs there.
[00:42:20] Jessica Infante: Okay, what would your markup be? Because I feel like I have left, I've gotten to the airport and realized I didn't have a phone charger and then you buy one and it's like 50, 60 bucks for a charger at LAX.
[00:42:33] Speaker 1: In theory, when concessionaires are doing the markups, when I say the average is 10 to 15%, the airport will give stipulations. They're not allowed to exceed certain things to protect the consumer. So on the back end, you know, you do research as the concessionaire and you provide like, this is what I'm basing my pricing off of. But in terms of the markup, my answer would be the very politically correct one of whatever the guidance from the airport was, I would do whatever the highest part was. Like if it went to 15%, I would probably mark up 15%. Not because I'm trying to make money, but because in the last 10 years, We saw a statistic recently that it was, on average, it was $750 a square foot to build in the airport, which that was wild. It's now 2,000 a square foot.
[00:43:22] Jessica Infante: Holy cow.
[00:43:23] Speaker 1: There is so much in terms of infrastructure, construction, bringing people in, labor, unions. The airport pricing is what it is. We're not just trying to charge a price to charge a price. There is a method to the madness. And again, that's why to me, it's so critical to have the right brands, even within those brands, the right like styles and representation of those brands that you can optimize, not just the consumer experience, but like your sales too. Like it has to be something that like gels together.
[00:43:55] Jessica Infante: All right. So let's say you are a brewery that's gotten a draft line in your local airport. What can you do to support that? Because you can't just drop by for tastings, right?
[00:44:04] Speaker 1: No, I had somebody that was like, I'm just going to buy a one-way plane ticket every day. And I'm like, no, thank you. Don't do that. Some airports, again, different opportunities by airports. It's going to vary on a case-by-case basis. Usually concessionaire, if you're able to work with the airport to find out what you're allowed to do, but like if you want to do a sampling, if you want to be there, if you want to do things like that, these things are possible. You just have to do appropriate planning for it. And you can have somebody escort you. So whether it's somebody from the concessionaire or somebody from the airport, if you plan it in advance, that's why I've had people ask me, like, how are influencers starting to do things at airports? And it's because they're getting escorts so that they're, like, coming in so that, like, it's not something where, like, they're being bought plane tickets to go somewhere. There's also, like, here in Philadelphia, in the Philly airport, there's, like, a buddy pass that you can get if you're flying with somebody else. I don't know if they're extending that. to other people if they were there for a business purpose. But again, I'm wondering, like, if there's a possibility of using that as a way to say, hey, we're coming in. We'll pay the 30 or 40 dollars. It's a lot cheaper than a one-way plane ticket. I mentioned before, like, airports are doing more and more on social media. So, like, find out, hey, like, can we collaborate with you on social media to share that we're now at the airport? I would, again, treat it as a case by case and I'd want to learn more about the airport. I would also like not just look at the social media as a prospective partnership tool, but I would also encourage them to like, have they ever partnered with whether it was a restaurant brand or a brewery or an RTD or whomever? Have they done samplings before? Are there opportunities to do stuff? There's also there's a lot of community focused events. If there's something where in Atlanta, I know that the team there, they do a big 5K every year that a lot of folks participate in. Are there other things? Or is there a golf court? Are there? things that are happening within the community that are airport adjacent that don't necessarily have the restriction of having to be behind security. That could be something to consider. Those are multi-purpose events. Like I always am thinking of like, how do you optimize any and all opportunities? So that's also something that if you're trying to get exposure for your brand, find out about those events. Like that might be something where that could be a way to get your product in front of decision makers and influencers at the airport. would be supporting things like that.
[00:46:28] Jessica Infante: What about traditional things like POS or like t-shirts for the servers? Are you allowed to provide things like that?
[00:46:34] Speaker 1: I would follow whatever the legal stipulations are of that state. So if it's something where You know, if you're allowed to do the giveaways, great. If it's something where it's coasters or, again, if there's digital signage, neons, things like that. Again, I would just use the same tactics that you do on the street. I always say to, like, folks, like, airports, stadiums, these are not places that you should be afraid to pursue. They just are a bigger building that might have some restrictions. You might have to buy a ticket to get in, but it doesn't mean, like, the potential's not there.
[00:47:09] Justin Kendall: Let's talk a little bit about Brewtop Social at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport. How did you get involved and tell us a little bit about why that concept is a little different than what we've talked about before? Because it sounds like there is a rotating cast of clients there.
[00:47:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't own and operate it. I conceptualized it for a concessionaire partner who they operate it. They came to me when they were as part of the bidding process. Where they are in the airport had been a restaurant, Anthony's Fish House, for like 20 plus years. And it was one of those airport locations that had always been there. And the upstairs of it had been storage. So they were like, hey, we're going to bid against Anthony's, which was like a big, this is like a David Goliath situation. In terms of that process, it was like, hey, we want to bid. We want to figure out conceptually what we do here. We envision some sort of beer garden. You know, what does this look like? So then I helped them figure out everything from menu to logo design to name. Brewtop both evoked the idea of that we were above, but also like the mountain ranges in the Pacific Northwest. And we have like signature trees as part of the design and things like that. It's intended to be curated to have the majority of offerings be local to that area. So you do have stuff that's on rotation, so it allows for some of the operational challenges. It was also, as I mentioned before, it was very, very focused on the distributor. That was like a new thing and it was wild to me because this is... a concessionaire who I think that you don't know what you don't know, but coming from the supplier side, I feel like I had the advantage of knowing that like when you have a strong partnership with your wholesaler, it really can drive the potential of what you're doing. and having the right people in the right room and not having folks work in a silo. How we went after the bid and how we crafted the concept itself was, like, we built from looking at the portfolios of what they had. I mean, I had certain breweries that I had in mind that, to me, there wasn't a world in which I was going to open a, like, a Pond Award, like, if we got it, which, you know, I'm so grateful that we did. But I wasn't going to open without having Rubens on draft. They're just a personal favorite of mine. I love their beers. I love the team there. I don't know if they remember me. I'm in breweries all the time. And I don't always introduce myself just because I want to. I probably have talked to you in some way and I've said like, hi, I'm Liz, but I don't necessarily say this is what I do because I want to see like what the experience is without it being any sort of I don't need or want special treatment. I want to know what it's like day to day. I wanted to have a concept that would like evoke stuff. I also was very cognizant of like, I didn't want to just have breweries that were all in the Fremont neighborhood. I wanted to think about like something that I think makes the Pacific Northwest and Seattle in particular, such a strong craft beer market is that you have so many different neighborhoods that have really strong craft breweries in them. So I wanted to make sure that we diversified not just the styles of beer, but the neighborhoods. So it really was a celebration of local and to me that was something that helped us win the bid because if you're creating a concept that is indicative and representative of the market you're going into, what better way to showcase that through not just variety of products, but through different communities as well.
[00:50:32] Jessica Infante: What has being included in the set at Brew Tap Social done for the breweries that are there?
[00:50:38] Speaker 1: From all the feedback that I've gotten since we've opened, I'm not as involved with the day-to-day anymore. We have a really strong team there. And CI, which is the main concessionaire, they really do a phenomenal job. If I may, I want to give a shout out to Eric Baines. He's like their director of brands and concepts, and he was just like an absolute joy to work with on this project. I think it's exposure. I think that it's high volume. It gives them you know, a seat at the airport table. And a lot of these breweries, some of them already had because SeaTac as an entity has been great with celebrating locals. Some of them had already been in the airport prior. So it was just kind of an extension of what they were already starting to see and do. There's another project I worked on in Raleigh, who ironically, the team that I worked with, the concession I worked with on the Raleigh project, it was called Carolina Craft, like celebrating stuff there. They're now a partner in the brewtop space. They weren't initially when we bid after it, but it's funny, just like the world is small, that worked out. And that was another one where we looked at kind of like what's in market. So I think that you're going to see more and more celebrations and not just in beer. You know, I've seen actually on the retail side in Nashville, you've got, you know, there's a retailer that's doing that has like a whiskey focus shop. Like I think that we'll, we'll maybe as much as we're going to see, like in terms of my predictions, as much as we'll see some like single brewery expressions, like the Great Lakes or Two Silos that I mentioned, I also think we'll start to see more of like the Brewtop model where it's a celebration of that city, that community, that state. And Brewtop, I also, I mean, my agency, everything we do is growth strategy. So Brewtop has been built for scale. So we might see Brewtop in another airport in the future. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, hopes and dreams. Fingers crossed.
[00:52:32] Jessica Infante: Awesome. Well, Liz, before we let you go, I do have a couple of fun lightning round-ish questions for you. What is the most memorable airport beer that you've had?
[00:52:41] Speaker 1: Honestly, probably the first beer I had at Brewtop Social. I know that's cheesy. No, how could it not be? But it was so cool to see it come into fruition, and it was a bail breaker. But I just remember sitting there and being like, this is really cool. Also, the Chicky and Pete's in E, which is like a local sports bar in Philly, we had just won, as you know, apparently I'm part of the team, we had just won the Super Bowl. A bunch of us were like drinking beers and just total strangers being shenanigans. And I was also, when I say we had just won, it was like two weeks later, which is fine. Again, welcome to Philadelphia sports fans. And like just the entire bar erupted in go birds. It was like a crescendo and everyone was like raising their beers. And I was like, this is a Nike commercial. This is someone's commercial somewhere.
[00:53:25] Jessica Infante: That's at least medium level shenanigans.
[00:53:28] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that definitely exceeds mid level shenanigans.
[00:53:30] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Good ones. Okay. What's your favorite airport to travel to or through?
[00:53:35] Speaker 1: Oh, that's like asking me my favorite kid, dude. Well, I mean, I think San Fran, their food program is outstanding. Denver is also doing so much in food and beverage and celebrating local. And then I'm biased, but I love visiting Seattle for obvious reasons.
[00:53:53] Jessica Infante: Fair enough. And as a super seasoned traveler, what's your best and or most unhinged airport hack? What do the people need to know?
[00:54:03] Speaker 1: Oh, always have Ziploc bags with you. And people are like, why do I want a Ziploc bag? Why don't you want a Ziploc bag? That and hand sanitizer at all times. When I'm at the airport and if I want snacks, I want a sweet snack and I want a salty snack. And more often than not, my salty snack is Cheez-Its. There's something about like a Cheez-It, just like tomato juice hits differently on an airplane, a Cheez-It hits differently on an airplane.
[00:54:23] Jessica Infante: I would agree with that.
[00:54:25] Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times I have spilled said Cheez-Its. And I sit up and there's like an orange army on the seat of crumbs. And I'm like, apologies. But if I had a Ziploc bag, my prayers would have been answered.
[00:54:39] Jessica Infante: There you go. Yeah. Perfect. Well, you, my friend, are an absolute gem. Thank you so much for joining us for this chat. And how can the people find you if they want to learn more?
[00:54:49] Speaker 1: They can reach out on Instagram at experience3. Again, three E's, Explore, Educate, Engage. That's a framework we use to help our clients grow. On our website, we have a thing that they can fill out. You know, my team is great. I have somebody that she is on it. So you'll hear from me or Amelia very quickly. And then maybe I won't be as much of a mystery shopper anymore. Maybe I will also try to say hello when I'm out and about. But yeah, drink beer at the airport. Be safe. Make sure you also hydrate for every beer. Have a glass of water.
[00:55:19] Jessica Infante: Great place to leave it. Liz, you're the best. I hope to see you somewhere soon. And thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thanks. And that's our show for this week. Thank you for listening. The Brewbound Podcast is a production of BevNET CPG. Our audio engineer for the Brewbound Podcast is Joe Kratchy. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski. Our designer is Amanda Huang. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your colleagues and friends and review us on your listening platform of choice. You can find our work at Brewbound.com. And we also welcome feedback and suggestions at podcast at Brewbound.com. On behalf of the entire Brewbound podcast team, thank you for listening. We'll be back next week.
