[00:00:11] Justin Kendall: Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.
[00:00:16] Jessica Infante: I'm Jessica Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.
[00:00:19] Justin Kendall: Yet a long pause there because you've been gone for so long.
[00:00:23] Jessica Infante: Thank you guys for your patience. It's been, it's been an ordeal, but happy to be back with both of you on the pod. Welcome back.
[00:00:31] Justin Kendall: Let's hear about some of these travels. We talked a little bit about Sierra, but we couldn't really get into it last week. So why don't you share a little bit about your trip to Asheville, Mills River, places in between.
[00:00:44] Jessica Infante: I love that we're doing this on the first day of school. Here's what I did on my summer vacation. And by vacation, I mean a business trip. Yeah, I went to Asheville, North Carolina. I've never been there, which feels silly because I've worked in beer for 16 years and it is a place to go. It was awesome. Beautiful place. Really liked being there. Couldn't move there myself. I don't know that I would fit in and also I would miss the ocean. But really, really lovely. So the purpose for the trip was to visit our friends at Sierra Nevada, which you guys talked about, and also the crew at Highland Brewing, who graciously invited us to their wholesaler meeting. I also fit in some visits to Bearded Blush, White Labs, Yeast, their taproom. I feel like I say this about every brewery I go to, the pizza, oh my God, so good. I went to Wicked Beads Functorium, I went to Burials Forestry Camp, I went to New Belgium. I was a busy little bee. And the thing that kept striking me the most, particularly in my visits to New Belgium and Sierra, is that What you're able to build when you're building with intention is amazing. They knew both of these breweries were going to have like substantial hospitality businesses. So they were able to really like build in like really great spots to just enjoy their product and enjoy like the natural surroundings. They both really seamlessly fit into their locations. Really, really cool. I'm still gobsmacked by just how gorgeous Sierra Nevada is after like two weeks. The Highland meeting was super fun. We'll have a story about that soon. The second part of why I wasn't here was that I was without a computer for a while, which we don't need to discuss, but we'll get that story done, I promise. What the Highland crew did that I thought was really fun and different was they did table-side discussions with all of their distributors in the room where the presentation happened, but with Q&A that happened over text. If you're at a table with people and you get a discussion question, you gotta talk about it. Sometimes you got one loud mouth who runs the table. That didn't happen here because they were asking, and they were asking really nuts and bolts things. They are, I think I'm allowed to discuss this, they're exploring an RTD. So they asked everybody in the room, what should the ABV range be? What packaging format should we use? And you could use your phone to text in. And results just showed up right there live on the screen, and then you could talk about it. I thought it was a really genius way to harness your wholesaler's opinions in an ABP setting.
[00:03:15] Justin Kendall: Yeah, you've got them trapped. You got them right there. They can't go anywhere.
[00:03:19] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and they have to answer you.
[00:03:21] Justin Kendall: Yeah.
[00:03:22] Jessica Infante: I do want to give a big shout out to my new buddies at RH Barringer, Jimmy, Gabriella, and Jason. They welcomed me to their table when I felt like a new kid on the first day of school in the cafeteria and didn't know where to sit. And Jimmy, apparently huge fan of the Brewbound podcast, and I promised him I would say hello. So, hey bud, how you doing? Hope your Labor Day was good.
[00:03:41] Justin Kendall: Hope you sold a lot of beer.
[00:03:43] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I hope you sold a lot of beer.
[00:03:45] Justin Kendall: What was the best thing you drank on the trip?
[00:03:48] Jessica Infante: Tough one. I mean, look, I drank a lot of, no surprise to either of you, Sierra Pills. And their special pills, glasses. It was beautiful. So good.
[00:03:59] Justin Kendall: What was the best thing you had at Highland?
[00:04:02] Jessica Infante: Daycation IPA. Just really, really good. A really nice, you know, 4.9% ABV. Not crazy hoppy, as in not like offensively bitter, but very respectable, 40 IBUs. It's a great day. They also, Zoe, I thought of you. They also had an experimental pickle beer on. That was really good. Nice. It actually tasted like pickle.
[00:04:25] Zoe Licata: Not just dill overload? No. No.
[00:04:29] Justin Kendall: Zoe, I'm going to put you on the spot too.
[00:04:32] Zoe Licata: Oh boy.
[00:04:32] Justin Kendall: What are the young LDAs drinking during Labor Day weekend? Super light. Super light?
[00:04:38] Zoe Licata: Without a doubt. And again, as always, whenever we talk about these things, this is a very small sample size of mainly people that I am around. But yeah, there were multiple people who brought super light to our annual Labor Day block party events that we go to. It was in, I think, at least three different coolers. You finding that Superlite was having some out-of-stock issues? I haven't noticed it, but this was also the first time that I've specifically seen folks have it. Specifically Superlite. There's been a little bit of talk about some of the other offerings out there, like the Vodka Aid or the Spiked Aid, but Superlite is officially around. I did hear inside scoop from a couple folks that used to work at some of the bars downtown, and they said some mixed things about their work with sales reps, but that has since been resolved. So hopefully that hasn't affected Superland at all.
[00:05:34] Jessica Infante: Hey, I asked because I was chatting with the liquor store staff in New Jersey where I was over the weekend. And they said they were getting out of stocks on super light variety packs, but they've been able to just hand mix their own single flavor four packs. Which if you're like a big fan of like blue, but not red, great news. Yeah. Interesting. Also, this is your last Beach Banner Plane update of the season. Happy Dad was flying flags on planes that said restocked everywhere.
[00:06:03] Justin Kendall: Interesting.
[00:06:04] Jessica Infante: Which didn't know that they weren't, but also like that's kind of inside baseball for general consumers, right?
[00:06:10] Zoe Licata: Yeah, unless it was like a common problem that like, oh, I can't find happy dad everywhere, but I didn't really know that was the thing.
[00:06:19] Justin Kendall: Maybe they're saving on a character count. Maybe you only get like so many characters on the banner on the plane. We're happy dad trains Rob, too I don't know maybe could be Never know apparently big cargo thefts going on well, I Think we need to plug brew down live which it is coming up December 9th and 10th and in honor of our next announced guests I'm gonna drink a sippin' IPA, the new non-alcoholic IPA from Lawson's Finest Liquid. And we are welcoming Adeline Drewart, the CEO of Lawson's Finest. She is now in her third year as CEO. And this is the second part of a conversation that we're going to have on CPG execs moving into craft beer. We announced Ellie Pressler from Sierra Nevada will be joining us last week and Adeline will be joining her on the panel. So we are stoked to have them both.
[00:07:23] Jessica Infante: Yay. And happy anniversary to Adeline. Yeah. How is that?
[00:07:28] Justin Kendall: Oh, that's good. See if I get any complaints too this week on drinking non-alcoholic beer on the podcast. Low AB beer.
[00:07:37] Zoe Licata: Controversial.
[00:07:38] Justin Kendall: Yeah. Who would have thought?
[00:07:39] Zoe Licata: Why? What happened last week? There are some, I don't even know what you call them, man bros. Man bros. In the comments section of Instagram to our reel for with Justin drinking the 2 point or what was the percentage 2.3%? Go to yeah 2.8% Go to so good I don't know why I didn't shout that out. So they're drinking that and they're calling out, why are you drinking this? There was one that was saying like, might as well drink water if you're drinking 2.8%. Someone was claiming men don't need low alkyl beer. They also don't drink IPAs, which that didn't make any sense to me.
[00:08:19] Justin Kendall: Yeah, men don't drink IPAs.
[00:08:21] Zoe Licata: Men don't drink IPAs.
[00:08:23] Jessica Infante: That's a new one. Wow, because who is drinking all those IPAs? Great question.
[00:08:28] Justin Kendall: Clearly, all the women who Love extra better hoppy beers.
[00:08:33] Jessica Infante: Yeah, totally the ones sounds like we're starting to reach a new audience on Instagram Yeah, it was it was fascinating.
[00:08:42] Justin Kendall: There were some acronyms thrown around too. Oh, I can't even remember what they were Zoe was going she got out the brass knucks and she was going at it.
[00:08:51] Zoe Licata: I'm not letting that shit just hang out in our comments I'm gonna talk back a little bit, but I'm gonna kill you with kindness. And so you can't really rebuttal.
[00:08:59] Speaker: I
[00:09:01] Zoe Licata: And so yeah, I went back at these people. What did they say? Now I'm gonna go look. Men don't care about calories in beer. Men like ABV and less IPAs.
[00:09:12] Justin Kendall: We are a monolith.
[00:09:13] Zoe Licata: I think the other man who was fighting pleaded his comment because it is no longer on here. He should be afraid.
[00:09:19] Jessica Infante: Wow. I posted a picture of me drinking this Sierra Nevada go-to 2.8% IPA while I was at Sierra Nevada. And I did get a message in response from a friend of mine who also listens to the Brew Brown podcast. He might be my only friend I know in real life that listens to the Brew Brown podcast. Hi, Chris. And he asked if it was worth the calories. And I said, yes. Yes, it is. This beer is delicious.
[00:09:44] Zoe Licata: Yeah. One comment brought up like, hey, is this just like catering to more the same crowd of the craft dudes and the flannels? Now they're just older, so you're catering to them. And it kind of connected nicely to a story that Justin just posted about New Trail and they have a new beer that's under 4%. It's a little higher, but still under 4%. And they said that that is not just for that group. They're also targeting Gen Z with that for folks who are in that better for you space. So that's kind of an interesting pull that Gen Zers might actually be into beer if it's that lower ABV.
[00:10:19] Justin Kendall: Wild to think.
[00:10:20] Jessica Infante: I mean, look, going from like not drinking in college to then just drinking like 9.5% double IPAs when you graduate, that's not really a recipe for success for anybody. So yeah, Zoe, I think you're on to something.
[00:10:34] Justin Kendall: You can hit people on both ends of the spectrum here. You know, get those young LDAs and the old LDAs.
[00:10:40] Jessica Infante: Por que no los dos? That sounds like what our friends at Nutrail are doing too.
[00:10:46] Justin Kendall: Well, join us at Brewbound Live tickets available now. We also got to plug the job board. You can go to Brewbound.com and check out all the jobs over there. You can post the job too. So if you're looking for new employees, hit up the Brewbound job board. We also have a conversation this week with a two-time MJF Foundation Scholarship awardee. That's Dashawn Agbonze. He is with Von Ebert Brewing. And Zoe, you conducted this interview last week.
[00:11:14] Zoe Licata: Yeah, Dashawn was great. We talked a lot about his education journey. He's been in the beer industry for 13 plus years now and started really deepening his brewing education in 2020, 2021 at the start of the Michael James Jackson Foundation when they first offered these scholarships to folks, specifically people of color and other disadvantaged communities. And he has since then done two programs through the MJF scholarships, been through a bunch of breweries now at Von Ebert, just came back from Germany and was doing a four-week program there and learned a lot about their brewing techniques. as well as how they're attracting consumers that are looking for other things, but specifically with beer. So that was a fun part of our conversation. You'll hear Germany's answer to diverting to other needs, but still giving everyone a beer option. But yeah, it was a great conversation really talking about the importance of a beer education and how it allows you to make mistakes and to try different things without costing the company you're working for a lot of money in doing those mistakes. So yeah, really, really fun conversation.
[00:12:25] Justin Kendall: Well, stay tuned for that. But let's get into some of the news of the week. And we've got some major people moves going on, especially for folks who are selling into Whole Foods Market. They're going to want to know this one.
[00:12:37] Jessica Infante: Yeah, Mary Guiver, who has long led Whole Foods beer buying team is moving back to produce, which I guess is where she had started. She posted about this on LinkedIn. She is super excited for the change. And you know, I get it when you're doing the same thing for a real long time. Sometimes you need something new and exciting. She told me that they are backfilling her role, but they're not sure who the real person is going to be yet. So stay tuned for that. And hopefully we'll let you know who you should be talking to at Whole Foods Markets to get your beer on the shelves there, because they have been a huge champion for local craft. So congrats to Mary, the Dame. Mary has been knighted by Belgium for her contributions to Belgian beer.
[00:13:25] Justin Kendall: What a legend. Congrats to her. Lost to produce.
[00:13:29] Jessica Infante: It's a bummer.
[00:13:30] Zoe Licata: They need her right now, honestly.
[00:13:33] Justin Kendall: Seriously.
[00:13:34] Jessica Infante: Produce does need some help.
[00:13:36] Justin Kendall: Good luck working with Taylor Farms there. And then a follow-up to last week, Pabst is offering $20,000 for the allegedly stolen beer that was taken. And I will say that the Montclair Police Department in California posted about this theft at an Anheuser-Busch distribution center there, but obviously Pabst has played up this quite a bit. And have you been following this story, Jess, while you were out?
[00:14:07] Jessica Infante: Honestly, no, I was hoping that you guys would tell me about it. I did have a mistaken identity of Moncler's, but now that I realize it's not the one that I was thinking of, it makes a little bit more sense to me.
[00:14:18] Justin Kendall: Yeah, definitely not Jersey. Although apparently with the cargo thefts on the East Coast, it could have been.
[00:14:24] Jessica Infante: Yeah, yeah. Constellation had this problem in New York City a year or two ago. I think my question is just how much money can you really make fencing beer?
[00:14:34] Justin Kendall: I do not know how much you can make, but you can go to prison for a few years after this, if you do get caught doing this, like the guy in the Bronx.
[00:14:43] Jessica Infante: Well, and I also assume if you're a retailer that somehow gets caught selling stolen alcohol, you certainly put your license at jeopardy, right? Absolutely. I mean, is there like a shadow three-tier system, like do the guys who take it, hand it off to somebody else who sells it to somebody else? I can't wrap my head around the logistics here and what you would have to do to make this worthwhile. Beer is heavy. Famously so.
[00:15:12] Justin Kendall: Especially that beer.
[00:15:13] Jessica Infante: Yeah.
[00:15:14] Justin Kendall: That's a lot of glass bottles to be moving around.
[00:15:17] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, I mean, look, we're all talking about Pabst.
[00:15:20] Justin Kendall: Yeah. I think that they've done a great job of turning this into just genius marketing. Probably got more out of this than the beer is actually worth at this point. And no truck was stolen, by the way, even though they pointed to a missing truck or whatever.
[00:15:36] Zoe Licata: Suspect.
[00:15:37] Justin Kendall: Apparently it's just like forged documents that they're doing. They're like rolling up with forged documents, loading up the beer, taking it away.
[00:15:46] Jessica Infante: I mean, it'd be really funny if these were just people who were like stocking up for like a big party.
[00:15:50] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Hey, it's fraternity recruitment season, right? You got to supply those parties somehow.
[00:15:57] Justin Kendall: Don't try this at home.
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[00:16:54] Justin Kendall: So Zoe, how much has the weather affected the Beer Institute's economic reports in the latest edition of that that they shared last week?
[00:17:05] Zoe Licata: Weather was not as much of a factor, not brought up as much as a factor as the previous report, but imports, so whatever that may be due to, weather, just prices, continued unrest, a million things. Imports really dragged down the overall total beer volume for July in this kind of end of summer data. Total beer supply for July was down 4.9%, but imports were specifically down double digits, down 11.5% for July. We know that, you know, July was supposed to be this big month of America 250 and the FIFA World Cup. And we saw through reporting at that time that a lot of that benefit was happening in the on-premise. And it seems like just overall beer volume did not meet expectations for this summer like we thought they were going to. Which I don't think is entirely a surprise to anyone at this point. You know the B.I. 's data is a couple months behind in real time. That is due to just the government processing data and how long that takes. So we'll see going into August what that actually looks like next month in early October. But yeah, kind of a downer report from the BI, unfortunately. But you know, Andrew always tries to give it a positive spin, and he said the BI's numbers are a little bit better, so that shows that on-premise is balancing things out a bit. He said this also could be due to a lot of stocking up ahead of the summertime, and so that just affected volume later on in the summer. But yeah, not great numbers.
[00:18:47] Justin Kendall: Well, we can move on to one more story before we get to our featured interview. And let's talk a little bit about FIFCO USA's sale to a private equity group. So Seagrams, Genesee, Labatt, Magic Hat. I confirmed that they even got Magic Hat. All those legacy brands, who knows what they're going to do with them, if they're going to keep them where they are or try and breathe some life into them. But we have new ownership for FIFCO USA, which is now North American Breweries again, NAB.
[00:19:21] Zoe Licata: Once again, it is NAB once again. I think our fellow beer journal, Dave Infante said that this company has nabbed FIFCO USA. So shout out to Dave for that one. So new ownership, but also kind of not totally new people. So the private equity group that has acquired this, the FIFCO USA portfolio and business and everything was co-founded by a former CEO of FIFCO USA, which was then North American Breweries at the time. And he has implanted a new CEO that also formerly worked at the company in leadership positions. So there's a lot of familiar faces here that are coming back to operate this business. The commentary in the press release feels very similar to a lot of the comments when a brewery buys itself back from a larger company. The energy felt very similar. This is, of course, a private equity group, so who knows what is going to actually happen with these brands, but it was a very interesting move and comments by everyone about that move in that press release.
[00:20:34] Jessica Infante: Well, I hope for them it's more similar to like a funky Buddha situation than a 10 barrel situation.
[00:20:39] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see what happens with them, but. They seem very positive about the brands and they need some kind of change because we've seen FIFCO USA has kind of dropped a bit in rankings for top vendors. Their sales haven't been the best for a decent amount of their brands. You know, they're down double digits so far this year in Surcona off-premise scans. And we know that there must have been something going on because Heineken bought a bunch of these FIFCO operations last year, but specifically did not want FIFCO USA. kind of money on what actually happened with that, because then in this press release announcing the deal, it says that this private equity group bought FIFCO USA from a Heineken subsidiary. So we don't really know what went down with that. Heineken was very adamant that they were not taking FIFCO USA, so it's kind of an odd situation going on.
[00:21:35] Justin Kendall: Yeah, it seems like they did end up with it after all.
[00:21:39] Zoe Licata: Yeah.
[00:21:39] Justin Kendall: I mean, they were always going to flip it, but it's just kind of like, all right, I guess we'll take it.
[00:21:46] Jessica Infante: Yeah, right. Like, I mean, how long could they have had those brands? And I assume those brands aren't big enough to be like, you know, need to get the DOJ involved, you know?
[00:21:54] Justin Kendall: Yeah.
[00:21:54] Zoe Licata: So they're placed on the ownership of Distributora La Florida, which was one of the businesses that Heineken specifically bought. So that's in their kind of South America and various operations.
[00:22:09] Jessica Infante: So when can I drink a number nine for old time's sake?
[00:22:13] Zoe Licata: They have said the acquisition has been completed. So in theory now.
[00:22:18] Justin Kendall: I don't know if you have to go to the Genesee Brewery to drink that or not. Very well could have to. I have no idea what the footprint was on it before. They said that it was available in limited markets. It came out like, oh, the rumors of Magic Hat No. 9's demise was greatly exaggerated, although probably not that greatly.
[00:22:43] Zoe Licata: Yeah, that was another murky reality.
[00:22:47] Justin Kendall: Someone please buy that brand. Again.
[00:22:50] Zoe Licata: Once again. We'll see what Southair, Southair, I'm not entirely sure how they're pronouncing this equity group, S-A-O-T-H-A-I-R, Southair Capital Partners, what they do with it. Yeah, North American Breweries is back. I guess we need to start changing our references and data reports.
[00:23:13] Justin Kendall: Those things are always the slowest too.
[00:23:15] Zoe Licata: Yep.
[00:23:16] Justin Kendall: Those are always the slowest changes.
[00:23:19] Jessica Infante: Circana still tracks Canarchy separate from Monster.
[00:23:22] Justin Kendall: Exactly.
[00:23:24] Jessica Infante: There is no magic hat within a hundred miles of my zip code. Maybe that will change.
[00:23:30] Justin Kendall: Well, you can read all those stories at Brewbound.com, but let's get to our featured interview.
[00:23:36] Zoe Licata: If you have been listening to the Brewbound podcast or if you've been keeping up with our content, you should be very, very familiar with the Michael James Jackson Foundation. But we haven't had a chance yet to really talk with anybody who has taken advantage of the scholarship programs that the MJF provides and actually gone and pursued education in brewing and or distilling. And so here to talk about it, we have Dashawn Agbonze, who is going to detail his extensive education that he's achieved and a lot of the fun things he's been able to do with MJF. So welcome, Dashawn.
[00:24:08] Dashawn Agbonze: It's good to be here.
[00:24:10] Zoe Licata: Thanks for joining. I think the easiest place for us to start is what made you want to, in the first place, pursue some sort of education within brewing?
[00:24:20] Dashawn Agbonze: I just personally believe that if you're going to do something and you love it, you should probably try to do it at the highest level. I never got into this industry as a hobbyist, so I had the opportunity to do it and I did it. And more than anything, I felt like a lot of people just couldn't answer a lot of the questions that I had about okay, we're doing this, but why? So looking for an education definitely helped. And earlier in my career, I just felt very insecure because I didn't intuitively know the answer to these questions. And, you know, I may be a lot of people feel that way as well, but I wanted to know more.
[00:25:02] Zoe Licata: What was that kind of the early stages of your career? What were you doing and what made you kind of that instinct to learn more?
[00:25:10] Dashawn Agbonze: Like most people started in the cellar and blending beers and everything like that. And more so just understanding something symbols like, Hey, like, okay, we're carbonating this way. Is this the best way to do it? Or it's a lot of like, well, you know, so-and-so did it. And it's like. I need more than a so-and-so or like yeast metabolism. Like that's a really, really big thing that I think is really like underestimated when it comes to fermentation and maturation of beer and stuff like that. It wasn't just making beer, like having an end product. It was how do I control everything as best I can.
[00:25:48] Zoe Licata: Most people that listen to this podcast, they're working within the beer industry. They have experience with beer. They know that beer is not as simple as you would possibly think. There's a lot of science that actually goes into what you're making. And even the folks that started as hobbyists, it takes a lot of education to actually get into doing this as a profession. So you wanted to learn more. You had questions. People couldn't necessarily answer them yet. How did you then find out about MJF?
[00:26:16] Dashawn Agbonze: It was during, uh, 2020, uh, it was on Reddit and I saw a post and then I looked into it. And then the moment that applications started popping up, I believe in 2021, I was just applying until eventually I got a, a scholarship for my, my first cohort. And it really just meant a lot. Like it was, it was crazy. Like from my perspective, like I almost gave up, but, uh, it ended up happening.
[00:26:46] Zoe Licata: Why weren't you confident in that was going to happen?
[00:26:49] Dashawn Agbonze: Just insecurity. Like I, outside of, you know, doing Siebel and the World Brewing Academy stuff, I personally, like, I have my own library of like, not the usual suspects of books, but like things that like, really interests me. And I just felt insecure. Like I maybe that like, a scholarship wouldn't be beneficial towards me, among with other people as well.
[00:27:14] Zoe Licata: Well, then you ended up getting it and you got to go first, the first step of your education process. What were some of the most crucial things that you were able to learn through that first initial program?
[00:27:25] Dashawn Agbonze: It gave me a lot of validation that I knew the things that are like fundamental for a baseline career. And if you were quality focused or like raw materials and stuff like that, packaging, like the engineering behind that. it gave me a lot of confidence that I was learning things and being tested on it, more importantly, and being able to feel good about it. And as well, I was able to get contact with some of the instructors there and talk to them and ask them questions at a much different scale and level of experience where you have people that have been brewing longer than I've been alive. I'm 37, so being able to communicate with people that have been doing this longer than I've been alive, it's pretty crazy.
[00:28:13] Zoe Licata: That's what's kind of fun about the beer industry is there's folks from all over the place and all different stages of their life. Some folks have been doing this since, you know, their first job and others, this is kind of their third or fourth career. And just the vastness of people's stories is really cool. So you got to learn through that program, have these conversations. What was then the next, next step in your career?
[00:28:36] Dashawn Agbonze: just working better. The paper, it means something, but it's only just a minimum. It doesn't necessarily represent what you can do. And I honestly think the opportunity means more than the paper. The MJF, you know, they're doing a lot. A couple years ago, Garrett posted something about DMJF have sent more people of color to Siebel than they've had in like combined in three years than they have in 20 years. So stuff like that, like the opportunity to do it and to do well really meant a lot to me.
[00:29:13] Zoe Licata: Yeah for anyone who wasn't aware the MJF does more than just provide scholarships to it also does mentorship programs it works just connect people and have a network because network is such a huge thing in a lot of industries but especially beer and as most people I think should be aware at this point your network is defined a lot by just the culture and whatever is already going on in an industry. And so if there isn't a lot of diversity, if there isn't a lot of change happening in that industry, then that can make it a lot harder for some folks to access that network. So MJF has been really cool in doing that. Did you do any of the mentorship programs or anything with MJF?
[00:29:51] Dashawn Agbonze: I did not. I did do a lot of collaborations to help benefit and just bring awareness to the MJF, just the mission as well, which I think is equally as valuable to get people on board as an industry as a whole.
[00:30:05] Zoe Licata: Yeah. You created some of the collaboration beers, right? What was that process?
[00:30:09] Dashawn Agbonze: Correct. Essentially, the first couple of places, Surly in Minnesota and Cigar City in Tampa, Florida, I reached out to my friends that I've made in the industry. I'm like, hey, I got this opportunity and I think more people should be able to have this opportunity. Let's do something and let's make a beer that people will actually drink and we can raise money and awareness and everything's great. And worked out great. My last one was at Breakeside here in Portland, Oregon. And I just shot my shot at Ben Edmonds. I'm like, hey, I've done this before. Would you be interested in making a beer? And I'm on your timeline or whatever. And he's like, absolutely. And we made a beer called Beer Hunter. Last year, in reference to Michael Jackson himself, it went really well. And hopefully since I've been in Germany for the last four months, there's still time this year to do a collab this year, but I definitely hope to make one next year as well.
[00:31:13] Zoe Licata: Awesome. Was the Germany trip also related to learning more about beer at all?
[00:31:18] Dashawn Agbonze: Yes, being in Germany was a part of my second scholarship, being able to go and finish out the second half of the master program in Germany, in Munich. That was a really excellent experience.
[00:31:31] Zoe Licata: Yeah, that's an incredible program. What were some of the best parts of that program or stuff that you really enjoyed with that?
[00:31:39] Dashawn Agbonze: Lots of troubleshooting. The Germans don't believe in magic or, or luck. There's an explanation for everything. And more than anything, just how the profession is seen there. Uh, in Germany, it's a regulated trade. Like you go to school, you're an apprentice for like two years, two, three years. Then you're a brewer and then you can become a master brewer, brew master. Uh, and you go to school for that. And it's like very much a profession. Like it's a professional job.
[00:32:08] Zoe Licata: Now you've done two programs, you've been able to finish this and you're now brewing in Von Ebert, correct?
[00:32:16] Dashawn Agbonze: Correct.
[00:32:16] Zoe Licata: Really fun team. We've talked to Sam over there a bunch. What are some of the things that you are kind of having fun doing or enjoying doing now just as a professional within this space?
[00:32:28] Dashawn Agbonze: At Von Ebert, my job is I am kind of the unfun police in the sense that I, uh, it takes us, you know, 100 seconds to do this thing. How can we do it in 99 or, you know, like listening to everyone's feedback and just like seeing how we can like better our process. because ultimately everything in beer is like, we want beer that has really good shelf life, but we also want the beer to taste good as well. So it's like, how do we tear along these, these edges, these margins of, of getting what we want and not compromising and making sure everything's, everything's fun.
[00:33:06] Zoe Licata: Yeah. You say that's the unfun police, but that also seems like a pretty crucial role in the craft brewing process, especially these days.
[00:33:16] Dashawn Agbonze: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm always like, why are we doing this? And ultimately like the Germans, I don't believe in magic. Like I need an explanation. Like let's, let's talk it out. And part of that is also like train people so that everyone can see the same vision. And you know, like we have the same goal because we know exactly how to get there.
[00:33:37] Zoe Licata: Does anything come to mind of misconceptions people may have about just kind of the education needed to do brewing as a career or just to really find, even though the Germans don't believe in the magic, but find the magic within with creating beers?
[00:33:53] Dashawn Agbonze: I think the education is important because it enables you to be in a controlled space to fail. You're not putting a business online. You don't have employees, families that you have to risk in order to learn that, hey, a clean tank would make the beer that you want, you know, or like, hey, contamination via your canning lines can happen, or how to solve these problems in essentially a safe space. And it's also like a level of professionalism. Would you ever go to the doctor and say, wow, this doctor is overqualified to help me not die? So same thing with like a brewer's like, okay, this person went to school, they've been tested to a minimum level. Like we all have a certain level of expectation. And that's also what they do in Germany with their apprentices that they still have to go to school. They still have to learn stuff even for like other trades as well. Like it's very much that like everyone has a minimum expectation. No one wants to fail, but the failure has a reason. There's no mystery behind the failure.
[00:35:01] Zoe Licata: Right. Every failure is actually a lesson in helping for the future.
[00:35:06] Dashawn Agbonze: Absolutely.
[00:35:08] Zoe Licata: You came into this professionally in quite an interesting time. I mean, 2020, 2021 to start that program, craft beer has been on such a roller coaster since then. What gets you really excited about craft beer right now?
[00:35:21] Dashawn Agbonze: So my career started in 2013, but what really gets me excited is working or meeting with people that are younger than me and seeing them being passionate. I definitely have to give a shout out to my old apprentice. Colton Costner, he is a UC Davis brewing program graduate. And the dude's like 10 years junior to me, but like, he is just so passionate. He and I just talk about the beer and it's like, you know, like this is literally going to be your industry. And like, he definitely tries to push the passion on people that he works with as well. And like being able to like do all this hard work and then look at a glass of beer and like, I want to drink this. it's like a siren's call and you enjoy it. And then it's like, it's like, imagine making the best ice cream you've ever made. And then it's like, maybe one day someone's going to taste this and they're going to like make ice cream too. It's the same thing. Like being able to give this to someone when it's beer isn't culturally part of our American identity as it is in Germany, but being able to still share that and like inspire people to walk this path. That's the exciting thing.
[00:36:34] Zoe Licata: Like, yeah.
[00:36:35] Dashawn Agbonze: I don't care whatever advanced hop products come out. Like if I can get someone to want to make beer, that's crazy.
[00:36:41] Zoe Licata: Yeah. I recently was like on a virtual tasting with the folks over at Alaskan where they've been doing it for 40 years. And they were saying it's still the most exciting thing for us is when people are like, this beer is so good. Like how did you create this beer? Like just the feeling of someone being really excited to drink their beer is still. their favorite thing in the world 40 years later. It was really cool. So you started in 2013 within the beer industry. It's changed a lot in that time. Did you see craft beer being where it is now? How has the evolution of this industry met your expectations or not?
[00:37:23] Dashawn Agbonze: I remember the first beer that really I was like, wowed by, and that was St. Bernard's app 12. I thought like, wow, this is insane. Like, how can this ever be a thing? And the beer that made me want to do this was Cigar City Jai Alai. Like I had not a big IPA person and that beer blew me away. And it was very, very much Like, how? Like, I didn't think there was magic. I just wanted to know how. How could this be done? Like, why isn't everyone doing this? And I think the industry is more quick to replicate things. But I definitely think from the earlier times, there was very much regionality. Like, it was more regional. It was more exciting.
[00:38:13] Zoe Licata: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Dashawn Agbonze: I'm not saying it's not exciting now, but like, When I started, I had very fundamental questions, and now my questions are a lot more complicated. Yeah.
[00:38:26] Zoe Licata: I can imagine. There's a bit of a more free-spirited attitude when you can focus on just a specific, more targeted consumer base, like your local consumer. Then now there's a lot bigger questions happening all the time, for sure. One of the questions that we're always being asked is also how is craft beer speaking to consumers? How is it bringing in new consumers? What is your perspective on craft's ability or how it may need to improve on just bringing in more people into this world of craft beer?
[00:39:02] Dashawn Agbonze: I think ultimately it's just what do people want to drink? That's really what it boils down to. We manufacture a product that people drink and we want them to drink, you know, more than one. You know, you go to Augustiner Keller in Munich and you'll drink a liter of beer. That's essentially two pints. And then you'll drink another liter, another liter. And people just want to drink beer. The Germans make so many different things that have beer in it. It's like, Oh, beer, sodas, beer with protein beer with electrolytes. They want to drink beer. Lots of any options as well. Ultimately, if you see yourself as a beverage manufacturer, like a lot of the fundamentals of making beer, microbiological, chemical, It's all there. And it's like, how do we make a beverage that people want to drink? And I think sometimes we look at like doing things in extremes, but sometimes it's just like, how can we take a step back, you know?
[00:40:06] Zoe Licata: Yeah, it's fascinating that Germany is almost an example of evolving and creating beers that can fit like anybody's needs while still being beer. When we also think of Germany as like the place where it's just like old school, like the core of beer. To think that they have somehow found the solution of, hey, this is how you can still speak to whatever a consumer may want, but still say, hey, you can achieve that with a beer. It's really cool.
[00:40:35] Dashawn Agbonze: Absolutely. And in Bavaria alone, I think had over 30 different NA options. Almost every brewery makes an NA option. And I think their trade organization, it's like 30% of the beer that is consumed in Germany is now non-alcoholic, which is really, really crazy. But it's also like people still want to drink a beer, but they just don't want alcohol. But I think here in the U S it's also just like, how do we make things that people want to drink? And more importantly to me is like, how do we inspire people to like drink this and see us as people that like really. We're sharing love, essentially. Like, how do I get you to love this and like be a part of this industry in some way?
[00:41:17] Zoe Licata: Right. Well, it's still, it's a crafted product, right? It's still something that, that feels like it's actually created by a person. And so how you can translate that to the product itself.
[00:41:30] Dashawn Agbonze: Absolutely.
[00:41:30] Zoe Licata: What kind of advice or guidance would you give to brewers who they're listening to this conversation and they're hearing, oh, I maybe want to inspire my teammates, my brew teams, hey, go pursue some education. They want to support them doing that. But is it worth my investment? What is your guidance to those folks of why that might be important to really invest in their teammates learning more and having that educational piece?
[00:41:54] Dashawn Agbonze: How I even got into the industry was I had a really bad breakup and I needed to love something and I chose to love this. And I think if you treat the industry as kind of like in the profession as like a relationship, it's like. Being good would be like, hey, how can I be better in this relationship? And it's kind of like a symbiotic relationship as well. It's like, I want there to be more people that, you know, we raise the minimum of what we know and what people can do. And how do we make better employees and better coworkers and better environments? by trying to be better ourselves and being able to, again, fail in a safe space, a controlled space is a lot better than, you know, investing in a maybe, you know, you don't want to be lucky. Like you want to be intentional because, because you can savor it more. And if you can make better coworkers and employees, you're going to savor it more because like, that's another thing that you made in this industry. You made the next piece of the industry.
[00:42:58] Zoe Licata: Yeah. It makes that like future collaboration and like innovation pipeline more exciting too, right? Because you have the educational piece of, you know how to avoid some of the mistakes. And so it's almost like a more fun experience because you can avoid some of that other stuff that you maybe not have before.
[00:43:19] Dashawn Agbonze: Yeah, it's like driving around and trying to find new routes home when you're not trying to get somewhere. Like you can fail, like you can like definitely that's a dead end and not take that whenever you need to.
[00:43:31] Zoe Licata: My final question for you, Dashawn, I mean, it's always fun getting to talk to anybody who's passionate about actually creating the product. We talk to people from all over beer. What is something that you're looking forward to or an ultimate goal or a specific type of beer you want to create? What is something that is like a big thing that you want to continue to do when it comes to beer?
[00:43:51] Dashawn Agbonze: Well, this is like ongoing. I love it when we make new beers and when you have your like, okay, it's like, it's a finished product, you know, it's in draft and you're sitting there and you pour it and you're like, okay, you have a sip. And that moment where you're like, I'll have another, like instantly, like you already know that you want, like, that's, Like, and that could be anything, like it could be an Imperial Stout, it can be a IPA or whatever, like the moment that you want to have that next step. And you know, that is, it's a balancing act of like, you know, different flavors, carbonation, mouthfeel, everything. But when it all works in that combination for whatever it is, That's what gets me excited, is being like, wow, why aren't we bringing this back? Like, it was so good. Like, I immediately wanted another one after having the first sip over and over and over again.
[00:44:45] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Is there been a specific beer that comes to mind when you think of creating that experience?
[00:44:51] Dashawn Agbonze: Not necessarily beer that I've created, but I do love Kolsch. And one Kolsch is not enough. And if you go to Köln, they'll say the same thing. Yeah. One is not enough.
[00:45:03] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Dashawn, I really appreciate it. Anything else that you think folks should know about brewing or about MJF?
[00:45:11] Dashawn Agbonze: People should know that the NJF really does change lives. They are very committed to, like, if you are an award recipient, you will go and do the thing that you want to do. And it's an opportunity. It's like, uh, let's say you want to, you know, climb a mountain and it's like, man, but I live, you know, on this side of the planet. And then you're there. Then it's like, okay, now the work's on me. So they'll, they'll give you that opportunity to be the best version of yourself in the industry you can.
[00:45:40] Zoe Licata: The power of having that just one extra stepping stone is incredible. It's just can do wonders. And it's been so cool to see through the past five-ish years, just how many folks have been able to take advantage of that program. And we've seen so many people do amazing things. It's, it's really fun.
[00:45:59] Dashawn Agbonze: Absolutely.
[00:46:01] Zoe Licata: Really incredible work that the MJF is doing. So great to have you on. Thank you again for joining, Dashawn, and sharing your passion for beer.
[00:46:09] Dashawn Agbonze: Thank you, Zoe. Good to be here.
[00:46:11] Jessica Infante: And that's our show for this week. Thank you for listening. The Brewbound Podcast is a production of BevNET CPG. Our audio engineer for the Brewbound Podcast is Joe Krachie. Our technical director is Joshua Pratt, and our video editor is Ryan Galang. Our social marketing manager is Amanda Smerlinski. Our designer is Amanda Huang. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your colleagues and friends and review us on your listening platform of choice. You can find our work at Brewbound.com. And we also welcome feedback and suggestions at podcast at Brewbound.com. On behalf of the entire Brewbound podcast team, thank you for listening. We'll be back next week.
