The Glass Advantage: Differentiation in the RTD Beverage Market

Melissa Travers [00:05] Hello and thank you for joining us. I am Melissa Travers, director of community here at Bevnet and Nash, and I am pleased to welcome you to the Non-Base podcast. Don't forget to check out Nonbase.com, Bevnet's new platform built for the CPG community, and it's where you'll find our partner directory, press release, and jobs hub, and episodes of this podcast as well. Today we are exploring the evolving landscape of beverage packaging and the thoughtful choices shaping the industry as sustainability, shelf appeal, and consumer choices are becoming increasingly vital. Brands are reimagining how their products are presented, not just to function, but to stand out. Joining us in discussion today are Steve Sandstrom, founder and executive creative director of Sandstrom Partners, renowned for For iconic work with brands like Bullet Bourbon and St. Germain liqueur, we also are thrilled to have Jimmy Bruton, Chief Marketing Officer at Via Carota Craft Cocktails, sharing insights from launching their award winning ready to pour cocktails in absolutely gorgeous glass bottles. And last but certainly not least, we have Scott DeFife, president of the Glass Packaging Institute, offering perspectives on the role of glass in today's packaging. Ecosystem. Together we will discuss how design, material choice, and brand storytelling converge to create packaging that not only resonates with consumers but also clearly differentiates on a crowded shelf. Thank you all so much for joining. Before we get deep into discussion, I would love just a quick round of intros so everybody knows who you are and gets to meet you a little bit. Jimmy Bruton, please tell us a little bit about yourself and Via Carota.

Jimmy Bruton [01:55] Well, good afternoon, everybody. Yeah, my name is Jimmy Bruton. I'm work with Via Carota. We are a restaurant in the West Village in New York City. We've launched a range of ready to serve craft cocktails. We've had the restaurant there. We opened that restaurant in 2014, and it's quite Popular. It's quite tricky to get a table at, and lots of people like to talk about it, but what's slightly easier are our cocktails which everyone can get their hands on. So we launched the cocktail brand a couple of years ago and we are slowly but surely expanding our distribution around the United States.

Melissa Travers [02:33] It's an absolutely gorgeous restaurant. I think James Beard winning as well,

Jimmy Bruton [02:38] right? Yeah, so we have two chefs, uh, who are both Michelin star chefs and James Beard Award winning chefs. So we have a strong belief that ingredients matter. And, you know, in our restaurant, the kind of chef's prerogative is to take out anything that is superfluous. So we really try and make sure we just use the fewest amount of the highest possible ingredients.

Melissa Travers [03:03] We are so excited to chat with you and hear a little bit more about Via Carota and your absolutely gorgeous, ready to pour cocktails. We got a few in at Bevnet and I had the opportunity to try the white Negroni, and it was so, so good. So we're looking forward to hearing about those. Thank you for joining us. Scott DeFife. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and the Glass Packaging Institute.

Speaker 3 [03:27] I'm Scott DeFife. I'm the president of the Glass Packaging Institute, which is the national trade association of all the glass manufacturers, glass recyclers, and everybody in the glass value chain in North America. We support our members from marketing issues, policy issues, things of that nature, and this is one of those areas where both the policy and the marketing kind of came together to create something that we've been working on for a couple of years that we think is opening up some new opportunities for beverage companies to use glass to differentiate themselves in a very crowded space with RTDs, but especially Spirits-based drinks and I'm happy to tell you a little bit about that as we go on.

Melissa Travers [04:11] Well, I'm excited to hear about some of the new opportunities that you're going to discuss as well later. Steve Sandstrom, thank you so much for joining us. When I was checking out Sandstrom's portfolio, just, you know, almost every brand that you've worked with seems iconic. I mean, Bullet Bourbon, St. Germain. Tell us a little bit about your design firm, how it came to be, and what your ethos is.

Speaker 4 [04:35] So I came out of this small firm or, or business called Nike and uh so my, my uh design uh history is, is varied. When I went into business as an independent design firm, we were initially tied to an advertising agency. So our business model and the way we work is much like an ad agency would work in terms of we work a lot with writers and collaboration. We're a branding agency. We didn't start to be a packaging firm. It's just that we succeeded at so many of those kinds of projects. And they involve branding and identity, uh, but also storytelling, and that's the, you know, that's the most important part about a brand. So when we approach packaging, we, we approach it from a storytelling angle like. What is your story? What's your why, you know, what are you, what are you making? and then how best can we present you to the world?

Melissa Travers [05:49] Well, so many of the packages that you've designed tell the story, which is so important when you have a consumer's attention for, you know, not a large amount of time. How do you look at different packaging options and how to figure out which story each of them will tell and what story you want to tell?

Speaker 4 [06:11] Yeah, and a lot of that is, is our own sort of internal, you know, research with our clients, like, like getting to the seeds for them, you know, what inspired them, how do they want to be in the world, you know, what excites them, you know, trying to find the, the root for why something exists and then, you know, bring that to life and, and, and I, and I'll use bulletin bourbon because that was the very first spirits assignment I ever worked on. Oh wow. It's an interesting one in that it was Tom Bullock was uh, an attorney, but he always, he grew up in, in Kentucky. His, his family goes way back. His wife goes back to Daniel Boone. So it's, he's Kentucky, like there's no more bluegrass than Tom Bul. He always loved the bourbon business. He, you know, he's, so he, at one point, he got his wife convinced to get into the business. He had a family recipe, even though he's an attorney. It's not a distiller. He had a family recipe from, you know, his great, great grandfather who emigrated from France and it's, it was this high rye mash bill, high rye mash. And so when Seagram's purchased interest in his company in the late 90s, they wanted to kind of rebrand what he was doing and the direction was to sort of tell his great, great grandfather's story, not Tom's story. That package came out of. The mid 1800s, not the 1980s or 19990s. And so, you know, understanding what that origin story was for him could guide me on how to like, well, what do you do? what did glass look like? What was the language used in that industry then? So you know, those are the things that you use as inspiration to design from.

Melissa Travers [08:08] Well, that is such an amazing example of storytelling and how you do that with packaging. Jimmy, certainly Via Carota has done such a gorgeous job of storytelling with its ready to pour packaging. I think one of the things that I noticed the most about that set of samples you sent us is just how absolutely beautiful the glass is, you know, how nice it is to touch, the weight of it is so beautiful, the embossing is gorgeous. Can you tell us a little bit about how Via Carota decided to move into the ready to pour space from being a bar and restaurant?

Jimmy Bruton [08:44] Absolutely. So we've, you know, obviously opened the restaurant in 2014. It's very popular. It's not popular because it's mega fancy, it's popular because the food is spectacular. During COVID, we were doing lots of to go deliveries, so one of our really popular dishes is the cao pepper. So, to make people happier during COVID, we were delivering cao pepper dishes. Rita Sodi, who's one of our one of our two chefs, she's a huge Negroni fan. And we've always had 7 or 8 negronis on our signature cocktail menu, so we're kind of well known for our negronis and our customers were saying, well, as long as, as well as the ketchup pepe, can you, can we get the negroni? So in the restaurant we were just Bottling ourselves and negronis, and that happened during COVID and then our, our, our, our guests then said to us, you should actually do this as a real thing. So, that's how kind of the, the, the dream was born. So, then after that, It took about 2 years. We did about 350 iterations of our recipe, but we're basically, all of our cocktails were born on the back bar of the restaurants, and then we bottled them. But, you know, we wanted to make sure we put it into a, a, a pack that was as considered and beautiful and elevated as kind of how we feel. So we know that in this, you know, To stand out on a shelf or to be picked up, people, consumers have to be attracted to the pack to pick it up, but then they fall in love with it because of the liquid.

Melissa Travers [10:24] Certainly it doesn't surprise me that a restaurant and bar with such high standards for its food and service has such high standards for its consumer packaged goods product, you know, when Think about RTD cocktail. I don't know who you would say your biggest competition is, but I think of brands like On the Rocks, Straightaway, and you know we're here to talk about Glass. The thing that stands out to me certainly is that you guys are in these premium glass bottles. How does that work out for you? Does it make a difference to your consumers?

Jimmy Bruton [10:57] Yeah, and I think look, on the rocks they are, they are, they've helped, they've created the category and that's been a great brand for any of our so we kind of differentiate between ready to drink and ready to serve and we'd say on the rocks and us, we are ready to serve, which is also a category that's kind of been born since COVID. And a lot of retailers sort of see the category as one brand, which is on the rocks, and they now realize, oh, there are other products. So we've seen there's been a nice opportunity where consumers who've maybe gone into the category through on the rocks and then Perhaps, you know, as they grow and realize, oh, it is, you know, it's OK to buy these ready-made cocktails, um, and they love the convenience of it, but maybe they're looking for something more elevated, which is where we see, you know, um, where we fit in. Um, so you might start with just a, you know, a classic margarita, but then maybe you want to progress to a Negroni or some of these other slightly more, I don't want to say sophisticated, but maybe complicated cocktails.

Melissa Travers [12:03] So if you're, you know, if consumers are living in the New York area, they're probably familiar with Via Carota or certainly were when you launched the cocktails, but then, you know, as you're growing distribution, and I know that you are because you're sitting in your car growing your distribution right now, so you know, I know that you're venturing into markets where you may have consumers that aren't familiar with the brand name. How do you communicate that it's a premium product to people who may not know the restaurant?

Jimmy Bruton [12:32] That is where the packaging comes in. So for sure, you know, our sort of flagship item and our best selling item is our 375 espresso martini, but the packaging is, you know, we've, we've sweated all of the details and everything to do with the pack and of course the product, but on shelf this retails for twice the price of on the rocks, so On the rocks is generally $15. We are $30. And if I have retailers sort of take a deep breath when I say $30 I always answer, you're absolutely right, it should be more, but we will keep it at $30. So, yeah, and we've seen, you know, we've, we've had a, we've got a very healthy online business which we call D2C. We launched the brand just, just under two years ago, and we've sold 80,000 bottles online. So in all seriousness, when I say to retailers, it should be more. Online we sell for $30 to $40 plus $15 shipping, so $55 and we've sold over 80,000 bottles. So that is in terms of consumer proof. That there are lots of people who are looking for elevated, ready to serve craft cocktails, and we've seen as well, you know, a lot of people buy something like this as a gift. So and it's often a gift that could, could be for yourself, and that's the spirits category in general. And these are very luxurious items, but really it only cost $30. It's, it's a very inexpensive way to get into. A luxurious world.

Speaker 4 [14:05] And that's, that's 4 servings, right? Sorry.

Jimmy Bruton [14:09] I, yes, Steve, so this is, this is serves 4. I mean, it depends how heavy you go, and I, you know, I take the top off and generally when I take the top off these, and it's a lovely cork finish, I'll do it in the car here, but obviously I'm being very responsible, but I often then just throw the cork away.

Melissa Travers [14:27] I just wanted you to know if you want to gift me with um any of those at any time, I, I, I that would be amazing.

Jimmy Bruton [14:33] Oh, delicious, yeah.

Melissa Travers [14:36] I'm so jealous, Scott. You speaking about gifts, you're going to inform us a little bit about the recent TTB ruling, and that's the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau that approved glass containers across a variety of sizes. And let me ask you a favor, so we were talking about this a little bit earlier. Please be as in plain, the plainest English that you can, because I found this to be a confusing law to begin with. So lay it all out for us.

Speaker 3 [15:06] Yeah, this is really getting into the nitty gritty of policy and regulations and things like that, that most folks don't, you know, after I start talking about it, I could talk about it for an hour, but they really will want the Reader's Digest version of what's going on. So in, in relatively plain, plain English, as best as I can, there are regulations over the size of packaging that you can put different beverage alcohol products in. That has existed for decades. Some of it grew out of prohibition, so that's going to tell you how long this has been. been going on, and they've evolved over time, but it, it's supposed to be to standardize the, the, the types of size packaging that you can have different beverage alcohol content in, right? So, the rules for sizing may have been different for malt-based beverages or wine versus beverage alcohol, spirits, and different proof alcohol by volume, right? One of the things that we noticed that was left over from, I'm going to say about 30 years ago as cans started to come onto the market, and you have to remember 30 to 40 years ago, you know, glass was a much more prevalent for all sorts of beverages, not just, you know, wine and spirits, but many other beverages, is that when they adjusted rules in the 1990s, they left out a critical size category. Where brands that had spirits-based drinks could not use the 12 ounce size. Glass bottle. The reasons, you know, we'd have to go back in time and revisit the congressional testimony from that far ago, but really what it was is a 355 mL size container, couldn't have a spirits-based, uh, uh, drink. In it. You could make it in the 375, you could do it even in the smaller, right? Smaller and larger, but for some reason 355 or 12 ounce sizing was not allowed for spirits-based drinks. Um, I think it had something to do with the closures and the portability, you know, and it, the 12 ounce size is just a standard size that people think of as a single serving. And so as to get away from that, um, with some alcohol regulation, they, they made that only available to cans. In the past couple of years we've been working on a policy that just came, was approved in January, that now there is no distinction at any size category across beverage alcohol about any of the beverage alcohol market segments for what's what material type you can put your product in. Uh, at the various different fill sizes. The fill sizes still exist, but the material distinctions are, are removed.

Melissa Travers [18:15] Was it challenging to get that rule changed? Was it based on consumer demand, demand from organizations like yours? How, how did it change?

Speaker 3 [18:24] There was a rulemaking process, which is also a very esoteric thing that most people don't want to think about on their regular basis, and uh during the previous administration, they were reviewing all sorts of competitiveness rules, and one, this came up as something that was flagged, and, you know, we did our role, which is to do the research, show the data, make the case that it was um inhibiting competition and inhibiting domestic manufacturing. And as beer sales have declined and the American consumer is looking for their, you know, their drinks, their beverage alcohol in different formats and different combinations, this was a space that was particularly limiting, and it's why you may walk down a certain aisle in a certain store and just see a lot of RTDs, if you will, um, in cans, because they couldn't Even use the 12 ounce size for a glass if they wanted to for anything that had, you know, was based on a certain. You know, beverage alcohol,

Melissa Travers [19:29] you know, it is a big deal. We certainly get a good number of ready to drink cocktails here at the Bevnet offices, but, and so many of them are 12 ounces, and you know they're, they're in cans usually. And so that I'm just thinking about all of the products and brands we see come through the doors and knowing that all of those brands now have the opportunity to use glass, that seems like a big opportunity.

Speaker 3 [19:54] It should be at least provides some opportunity for brands that want to distinguish and use glass to try to differentiate themselves on the shelves. There's, you know, many data points that show that premium, premiumization, differentiation. And glass can really stand out on the shelf and does help sales volume, which is important to retailers as well as to brands themselves. Well,

Melissa Travers [20:21] Steve, you just have so much knowledge about packaging design, materials, branding, all of that. What can Tell us about the importance of packaging material and what to use because there are a good number of options, and each option, I'm sure presents you with a certain range of opportunities and a certain range of challenges.

Speaker 4 [20:44] The aluminum can business, you know, helps a like an outdoor or active lifestyle if you want to take drinks on the go. I mean, it's a, it's a very light, convenient, and it's now recyclable, and you know there's even a deposit return on cans and stuff, so. That's, it's, that's great poolside. Or campground wise or, you know, tailgating. But if you're like entertaining at home, or maybe you've got a, a wedding and you don't have money for a bartender, there are definitely occasions that, you know, upgrading the presentation. Uh, you know, your, your, uh, beverage service would be, you know, a wonderful opportunity, I think. You could use a lot of stock, 12 ounce bottles to begin with, but if you wanted to customize, you know, and, and to make an impression, you know, definitely like, like, you know, Jimmy's company has done, that's still possible, right? So that makes The opportunity even even greater, I think you can't emboss a can. You can't really, you're just stuck with certain forms. It's either skinny or, you know, fatter or whatever, but there's only a couple of choices in the can world and a couple of, you know, restrictions to how it's printed. But if you were a spirit company, you were doing cocktails that were Using a base spirit, you know, whether it's vodka or whiskey, whatever, you'd, you'd want, I think you'd wanna have that option in glass. They're all considering. Aluminum cans They're all considering that, um, but it's not easy to make those products, and Jimmy will know that firsthand. It's not the same cocktail necessarily you can make behind the bar. It takes some science to figure that out, um, for shelf life and things like that, but, but I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited about it for our clients, um, and I know that some, you know, some will be very interested in it.

Melissa Travers [23:06] Well, Jimmy, I hope you get a huge number of inquiries for people having weddings who don't need to pay a bartender anymore. I have a question from Jeff Kleinman who wants to know if you are planning to make a jarred caccio i Pepe, so we'll have to, we'll have to keep an eye out for that. I do want to ask you, like, it might be tough for folks to see it, but it's almost like this herringbone design laid into the glass, and it's just so beautiful. How long did it take you guys to settle on the packaging design? It's beautiful.

Jimmy Bruton [23:37] It took about a year and we call it, and it is, it's kind of art deco style, but we call it the chevrons. We've used that look across our range, which we have 3 different sizes, and they are all glass. You know that does close us out of a couple of opportunities. So things like airlines sometimes they say no, we've got to have cans. Poolside, some people will say you can't have glass, but we'll then say, Well, what do you do with your champagne bottles? And they're like, oh well we pour that into plastic glasses. We're like, Well you can do that with this. So you know, glass. Being in glass is, is a, being 100% in glasses is a decision we've made, because it, it personifies our brand, which is elevated craft cocktails. But we've found, and Steve mentioned this, even weddings, this is our number one item. It's a French 75, which is champagne, gin, and elderflower. And we've had great success. Uh, in fact, this summer we're doing a lot of stuff with weddings where two things, yes, you don't need a bartender, um, but they can even drink it straight out of the bottle with a nice straw. It's actually still very fancy and it's easier than putting in a champagne flute, but we've had people drinking that on lawns at Ocean House in Newport, Rhode Island for their weddings. So that's a nice thing. The other thing I'd say about glass is we found A lot of our cust uh, a lot of our clients who are purchasing us are using, we're calling it Second Life or upcycling, and we get a lot of photos and images that we share on our Instagram of people who are then repurposing the bottle after they've used it. So, for our 3 75 here, a lot of people will put a little stopper in it and use it for balsamic vinegar, olive oil, even hand soap by the sink. We've had people using them as for water bottles. We've had people using them for little vases. So there's, um, you know, there's some nice, uh, additional uses there as well as recycling them.

Melissa Travers [25:40] What a beautiful lineup. Um, Scott, so actually we just heard a couple of comments from Steve and Jimmy that I'd love to hear you speak to a little bit. The first is the cocktail in the bottle. Like there, there are certainly so many considerations around freshness, not leaching any materials, that kind of thing. And then also Jimmy talked about recyclability. Can you, can you give us a lay of the land there?

Speaker 3 [26:05] We don't have any issues with your average consumer. Consumers know glass, they trust glass. They want to see more glass. We have, you know, studies, consumer research studies, you know, all the time. Where the answer back is consumers actually want to see more product offered in glass, right? They get a little upset when things that they've known, iconic brands that they've known in glass, aren't available in glass anymore. So zero issues on the consumer side. There are some issues that have been brought up on distribution and Certain, you know, certain end market, you know, places where you can consume the thing, you know, sports stadiums and things of that nature. But, you know, if it stays behind the bar and gets poured into a, a different cup, uh, then that can be handled. Taste is important, you know, everything that that the craft craftsman puts into the product that they're making is going to be true. To the consumer in glass, there it is inert. There is no film layer. There's no, it is just glass. It is purely just that in and of itself, and it has the least amount of impact on taste, flavor, and things of that nature and is, is the best for preserving freshness and things and shelf life and things of that nature as well. So consumers trust it. It's really great. You'll see beverages of all sorts. Still market their product in glass. Television advertisements all the time for beverages of a wide variety are shown in glass. Um, when you go to the supermarket, you may not be able to see it as often in glass, but the, the marketers know, uh, that glass touches consumers and consumers trust glass.

Melissa Travers [27:46] Is the reason that glass protects shelf life and freshness. Because it's airtight and I have, so I did a little experiment, not really knowing it was an experiment. I got a jar of peanuts that was in glass and then I got the one that was cardboard, and we ate both of them, and the ones in the glass were so much fresher than the ones in the cardboard. Is that just because it's airtight? How does that work?

Speaker 3 [28:09] Yeah, it's the same properties that keep everything that make it perfect for beer and a variety of different things that the permeability, there's no, you know, it's inert, it's not permeable. You don't transfer anything between the package and the product. Almost everything else needs a liner of some sort, and so that affects the taste and the freshness, and the chemicals may interact with different liners and, you know, different products, cannabis drinks that I think. You know, we, people have talked about before, um, the, the, the science of the liner, you know, may impact the, the product inside, but for the same reason there, um, we did an experiment at home with strawberries, very similar, you can take them back from the grocery, put them in the, in the glass mason jar, and keep it in the refrigerator to last much longer.

Melissa Travers [29:00] Thanks for explaining that. And then on the point of recyclability. I think consumers, I know consumers are so confused about sustainability and packaging. I mean, single use products in general are like a challenge to sustainability, but people want to make the best choices that they can, and I think consumers are so confused about PET, RPET made with recycled content, but how does glass figure in there? Like consumers understand how you recycle glass.

Speaker 3 [29:34] Well, the first critical difference is there is no difference between recycled glass and virgin glass or new glass. It's all just glass, and so the material can be returned endlessly back to the supply chain as many times as we can get it back. It can be a new bottle again. Uh, but you know, people like to reuse it first, and then it often will get several lives in reuse before it gets recycled. So glass is very trusted in the recyclability and sustainability space. Glass recycling is ubiquitous in the United States. It's in every area where there are large concentrations of people, and it's completely domestic. It's, we don't need sourcing from overseas. Uh, the material that gets recycled here at home, uh, gets in regional markets. Um, glass is produced at over 40 plants across the country. Um, so reaching wine end markets on the West Coast or spirits markets in the, in the mid, mid, you know, the Midwest, uh, food areas, you know, near food production. Uh, areas. So, glass production follows the end markets that it largely serves, uh, and is, uh, completely, can be completely domestic.

Melissa Travers [30:56] Well, that was so informative. Thank you so much. What's, uh, what are you looking forward to next with Glass Packaging Institute? Anything you're, you know, particularly excited about or, um, that you're working on?

Speaker 3 [31:09] Well, outside the policy space, we're just looking, you know, we're, we're really trying to, um, in conversations like this, help make sure that folks know. That the brands know that they can look at this. We're really investing in market data, emerging markets as consumer tastes change, we want to make sure that glass is available, you know, in those spaces and that we, we communicate more with brands about the opportunities for glass. Our members will, can make a variety of different. shapes, sizes, colors, you know, really wonderfully looking, you know, wonderful looking product, as well as the stock, stock bottles and stock material that's, you know, can be used and is very flexible for a variety of different products, but we just look forward to engaging with brands and craftsmen on the different creative, you know, products that are emerging. Uh, and we want to be their partners, um, as they, to help them grow their, their product and, and their exposure in the industry.

Melissa Travers [32:17] Steve, it was great to have you here. You work with brands all the time, all day long, and you know, we certainly talked a little bit about how ready to drink or pour spirits in glass really create this sort of premium product. Do you think there are other categories like, you know, functional beverages, non-AC beverages? Do you think that there's an opportunity for other categories of beverage to elevate their packaging as a way to stand out on the shelf the way that Via Carrada does now?

Speaker 4 [32:47] Particularly, I think the non-elk. The mocktails of the world that are increasing in their popularity, there's probably, you know, no restaurant now that doesn't, that has a bar that doesn't have some kind of non-elk option or, you know, 3 to 6 mocktails listed. That the trouble that those companies have is elevating their perception. Because if there's no alcohol in it, why is it still $15 or why am I still paying, you know, $12 for this drink? And the answer to that is because of the ingredients. It's not because of the alcohol. The alcohol might be the actual cheapest ingredient in some of these beverages. So, but without the alcohol there isn't that other function quality about it that people are seeking, so they don't. Necessarily equate them 1 to 1 right price wise. This could be a way to help some of those kinds of products change the perception of them to be, you know, something a little more special when there's a lot of effort that's made to go into those things. So, and you know, having the transparency, having the ability to Embossed and do, you know, other treatments, um, even tint the glass, all, you know, all of that leads to opportunities for so many, you know, I think, alternative beverages.

Melissa Travers [34:25] Well, Steve Sandstrom, thank you so much for joining us today. It was so great to hear from you. And uh Jimmy, we're, it seems like Villa Carrada is gonna be everywhere. You're at weddings, you're on the Newport, uh, the shore of Newport. Uh, what's next? Is it mocktails? Are you doing mocktails next?

Jimmy Bruton [34:41] We might be. It's an area that Steve touched upon that we are very interested in, and I think, as Steve pointed out, Those people that are choosing not to drink, which is now, it's kind of staggeringly high, 25% of under 25-year-olds have had no alcohol and have no interest in it. But I think all those consumers still want to experience and have a drink that's got everything in there apart from alcohol. So if it's about, if it's a non-alcoholic sparkling wine, they want the celebration. But no alcohol. If it's a perfectly crafted cocktail, they want all of the flavors in there just without the alcohol. And I think Steve pointed out as well, like, it's, it's often actually more expensive from a, from a kind of a liquid point of view to pull those drinks. Together to make them. The alcohol is not that expensive, um, all the other parts. So, um, that's an area that we may well be looking into. We are, you know, slowly but carefully expanding our distribution. Our world is, you know, liquor stores and then high-end hotels, but where, you know, You know, people are having an elevated in-room cocktail and they don't want to have the kerfuffle of making everything. But then also we've seen great opportunities in things like weddings where sort of there's no bar. We are wherever there isn't a bartender, so it's kind of wherever life finds you without a bartender, we can offer a, you know, a super elevated craft cocktail very quickly and conveniently.

Melissa Travers [36:16] Well, if it comes from Via Carrada, I will certainly look forward to drinking it. Thank you all so much for joining us today on the Non-Base podcast. Steve Sandstrom, Jimmy Bruton, and Scott DeFife. Thank you so much for joining and to our audience, thank you as well. Make sure you go to non-base.com for this episode, and we'll see you next time. That concludes another episode of the Non-Base podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a review and follow us on your listening platform of choice. You can also watch and listen to past episodes on Non-base.com and don't forget to join our non-base Slack at slack.bevnet.com for company updates, industry networking, and community discussions. See you next time.