CBC 2024: New Belgium Brewing Lead R&D Brewer Kelly McKnight

Speaker 1 [00:10] Welcome back to the Brewbound podcast where we are recording live in the Brewbound podcast on location studio here at the trade show at the Craft Brewers Conference in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. And I am psyched for this guest, Kelly McKnight, lead R&D brewer from Yeah, brewery you may or may not have heard of New Belgium Brewing, but Kelly and I have a mutual bestie, and I feel like we've both known each other of each other for so long that I am thrilled that we're actually meeting in person for the first time. So Kelly, how are you doing?

Speaker 2 [00:44] I'm great. The conference has been awesome so far.

Speaker 1 [00:47] Yeah, I mean, I had my doubts about what CBC in Vegas would be like, but I'm, I feel like people have been pleasantly surprised.

Speaker 2 [00:56] Yeah, it's uh less terrifying than I thought it would be,

Speaker 1 [00:59] right? Right? Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm excited to go home, but, but it's been nice. People are psyched, people are enjoying the, the vibes. So let's just get into it. You lead R&D for New Belgium and you guys have had some absolute bangers and innovation in the last few years, which I feel like I'm way too old to be saying things like that. So, but it's too late to, to stop the tape and fix it. So we're just gonna roll with it and accept it. But New Belgium's really like kind of leaning into being a little bit of a house of brands, you know, you've got voodoo, which has its own identity, uh, then voodoo branched out into hard tea. Uh, there have been hard seltzers. Like when you're innovating in general, like, do you do it with a brand family in mind or do you just kind of say, hey, let's, let's get this going and see where the wind takes us?

Speaker 2 [01:45] Uh, it's a little bit of both. So, um, obviously voodoo, you know, has. Really turned into our number one, you know, Fat Tire was it for a while. And then we evolved. And, um, when voodoo started coming out and just going insane with sales numbers, we were rolling with it. We're still rolling with it. And that's really cool in the R&D process because, um, You know, I know some things can be confusing because it's like voodoo, hard charged tea, you know, it, it, it extends, but, um, pre-moving into beyond IPA stuff, um, You know, we, we really, we're like this is it, this is doing well, and we need adaptability and we need to survive, so we're gonna invest a lot and it is actually its own brand like you're talking about. I mean, under New Belgium, but um, so yeah with R&D like that either we have, uh, you know, marketing come to us and say this is what we want you to make because we think this is cool and I actually gave us a talk yesterday with a panel of amazing people. Natalie Baldwin from Wayfinder, Megan Preey from Sam Adams, and, uh, Tanya Cornett, who just won the Russell Shear Award for Innovator of the Year, uh, from 10 Barrel. And, uh, yeah, so when we were talking yesterday in the innovation panel, I, I kind of explained how, um. Our team is kind of symbiotic with marketing. So, we constantly are working on new beers with new, uh, raw materials and ideas. And part of my job in particular, You know, as being like kind of the GM manager of the pilot brewery where everything at New Belgium is made, whether it's via brewing or bench topping with natural flavor or other raw materials that could turn into hard hard charged tea or whatnot. But, um, yeah, we are, are always cooking up stuff for marketing and marketing is always cooking up stuff for us. And I think kind of something that differentiates us between Some other breweries is that we have a high trust relationship. So it's like a double two-sided arrow. We bring them stuff, they bring us stuff.

Speaker 1 [04:03] That sounds like, like a great way to do it because I Having been in marketing at various places, sometimes there is a little friction. So when that's not there. Really great things can happen as, you know, your portfolio clearly attests to. So I do have a really specific, but maybe a silly question. When you're doing new IPAs, is it just a given that those are gonna go up under voodoo, or could some of them go under the broader New Belgium flag?

Speaker 2 [04:31] No, I think at this point in time, because Voodoo has such a large footprint in the marketplace, um, every IPA is just gonna be made for Voodoo, Voodoo, and we have a specific marketing team just for Voodoo, and then we have a specific marketing team, um, for everything else, and then small brand too, but. Yeah, new IPAs, we're just constantly, it's Voodoo.

Speaker 1 [04:55] Awesome. How much, uh, interaction do you have with the Bell's crew?

Speaker 2 [04:59] A lot. Uh, I mean, again, so they have their own R&D team and we have ours, but, you know, we have been brewing stuff there. They've been brewing stuff at New Belgium, and so we have to talk all the time. And as part of the larger production process, you know, we have to stay in touch with all kinds of raw materials, safety things. And so anytime we're coming up with brands, um, in our pilot that could go to production and maybe hit their system, We, we have to talk about it, so we are actually working together all the time, um, and that's not to say that Belle's isn't doing their entire own thing either, but we're doing ours, they're doing theirs, but now as we build brands and we build recipes we have to make sure that. Oh, OK. Like, for some reason, there's a, a little extra capacity at New Belgium. Can we brew it here or can we brew it in Nashville, um, or Daleville? And so, we have to make sure that things site-wide could be processed and produced, um, At each

Speaker 1 [06:07] location. Awesome. I mean there's so much that I'm sure you can all learn from each other. So yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, it's just more, more people on the team, the better, which is great. So how do you balance where the trend lines currently are in craft versus where you think they're heading when you're working on innovation products?

Speaker 2 [06:22] Oh, our team is a very small team for, um, so now I'm just talking about New Belgium. Um, how do we balance that out? We do and we don't. I mean, we hear numbers, we see numbers and what's trending in the market from Nielsen and this, that and the other, but at the same time, we have a ton of freedom to do whatever we want. And that's really cool because, um, let's say like, OK, there's this big old push for a certain type of beverage, but. In the end, it didn't do, do very well with sensory or with test market stuff. And then we can bam, pull out of the pocket like something that we've been working on independently in the pilot. So I don't really know if I answered your question,

Speaker 1 [07:10] but I mean, I don't know that there is an answer to that.

Speaker 2 [07:12] We don't, we don't, we, we're. We want to be relevant, so we're we're working with trends, but at the same time we're trying to. Get abreast of that. And so, we're, we kind of look at everything all out there and makes prototypes of stuff that is wild and kind of what I talked about at the, um, talk at CBC the other, yesterday about innovation was We nearly view now beer as a raw material in itself. And so, you overlay, like, with Juice Force, for instance, um, that was, at the time, hazy were popular, imperialization was popular, fruits and, um, fruit, natural flavors were popular, and so were seltzers. And so how we actually made up, um, sorry, Juice Force, it We just worked with all that and tried to put it in one bottle. So we keep all that stuff together and then. We're like, maybe we can launch this and it'll be really cool. Or, OK, there's a need for whatever style of beer, let's go after that. So we, I guess we do

Speaker 1 [08:19] both. Yeah. I mean, how important are taproom sales in your process?

Speaker 2 [08:24] They're important. Uh, we, we track them. We have, so we have tap rooms in, um, Fort Collins and Asheville right now. And then with Magnolia, we still have Magnolia. And we look at that, uh, and then a part of my job being the main pilot brewer, um, is brewing things and putting it on tap and all that and seeing what people think. But if you look at our footprint in the beer world, our tap rooms are very small amount, or it's like a very small amount of consumers compared to where we are. So, we have to kind of look more at marketing and R&D. We have to look more at Consumer trends and then beyond that, which is like total beverage trends. So I don't know that. No,

Speaker 1 [09:12] that's really helpful because I, uh, the size of New Belgium, like, yeah, taproom sales are important for, for all brewers, but you're right, it's such a small piece of the pie when you are sold in, you know, all 50 states in almost every class of trade. But it is important. But the other thing is you gotta think about the people that come in your taproom are self-selecting,

Speaker 2 [09:31] right? And I would say, you know, obviously taproom sales are important, but, um. And, and, you know, huge shout out to our taproom and taprooms, but, and, and what they tell us and what they discover. And, but in addition to that, the volume of sales isn't mainly coming from taprooms, it's coming from everywhere else,

Speaker 1 [09:52] right. One thing I think, and you touched on this a little bit talking about the development of, uh, Fruit Force is it is important to look outside craft beer, and I think some people maybe. Might scoff at that idea, like, you know, depending on where you are in, in your journey in the craft world, might think like, what do I have to learn from hard seltzers? But here's the thing, like I think looking across broader all beverages, not just beer and not just beverage alcohol, like looking at everything really helps tell you what consumers are into.

Speaker 2 [10:22] And yeah, and that's the thing is like, You know, there's a whole new generation of drinkers and you are starting to hear it. You heard it in Bart's talk, um, but palates are changing. People are drinking, grew up drinking different things. And so, I think something we're focused on is how do we capture new consumers, right? And that as a larger brewery, you're into that. And what I was asked in that talk I did, so I'm just repeating some stuff that maybe some people didn't hear is, um, You know, for innovation for us means breaking your brain, thinking outside the box. And in the beginning, I was a traditionalist to, to style, but now, and I love traditional styles, don't get me wrong, but to survive in the world right now of beer and craft, um, you have to think differently and be OK with breaking all the boundaries. So, I think that's what we're doing well right now. And we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 [11:21] Yeah, I mean that's, I can't think of anybody doing that better than you guys right now. Thanks. You're welcome. Well, let's talk about your talk yesterday because I meant to get there and I'm so sorry, but we just, you know, we were here recording and it just kept going and going and going and it was delightful, but I can't, I can't be in many places at once. So, uh, give us some highlights from that talk.

Speaker 2 [11:40] It was really cool. Like I said, I already mentioned that there was Tanya and Natalie. Uh, Megan in it. And one thing that I thought that was really, that we brought to the table for the BA and especially the entire craft brew conference was there were brewers from, um, all different size breweries. So Natalie at Wayfinder, you know, was speaking from a perspective that was, uh, you know, a few 1000 barrels a year, all the way up to Sam Adams, right? To, you know, they have a whole different R&D approach that even we do, which we're. I don't know how many millions of barrels Sam does with all their products. We all know it's pretty high. We're about 1.8 million, and then Tanya at, um, 10 barrel is similar, but she's owned by Tilray, which is a huge parent company. So anyway, I think we brought perspectives from all different sizes and it was really cool. It was really nice. The audience had great questions. Uh, we kind of got cut off because I think we went, we didn't go horribly long, but Yeah, if you have a chance to watch it, uh, check it out, but there's just, like I said, perspectives from all over the place.

Speaker 1 [12:48] Awesome. And I think, I think I've heard that all of these, everything will be recorded. Everything that's been recorded is gonna go up within a month for BA members. So I can't wait to check that out. One thing, and I've talked to Megan about this, but I think. What I loved that what you did, and I know the point is to act like it's normal and not call it out, but I'm gonna call it out because until it becomes normal, there's something that all four of you have in common,

Speaker 2 [13:13] and are you gonna say it?

Speaker 1 [13:15] Oh, I'll say it. You were all women having like a conversation that clearly was super in demand and listened to and well attended and really well engaged with. And until like there comes a day when that's normal like. I think it's worth shouting out. Hey.

Speaker 2 [13:33] Yeah, I mean, it was kind of the unspoken,

Speaker 1 [13:37] yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 [13:38] we had it as speakers in the back of our mind and we knew other people did, but we actually didn't want that to be called out at all.

Speaker 1 [13:44] I know,

Speaker 2 [13:44] and,

Speaker 1 [13:45] and I think that's the way to do it, yeah,

Speaker 2 [13:47] and it was cool because it's like, OK, this is the featured talk. Yes, it happens to be all women. And again, it could have been even more diverse. I'm not gonna lie about that, but It's a step. It's a step, um, in our brewing industry, and I think the fact that it wasn't focused on Our genders or our queerness or anything like that. Um. was some sort of progress

Speaker 1 [14:13] totally. And one thing that Tanya mentioned in her uh award acceptance speech was how, you know, she was really jazzed for her beard to win awards and medals, even though like I feel like the conventional wisdom is nobody cares about that, but like, yeah, it matters it matters, and she said like the judges don't know when the beer is brewed by a woman. Yeah,

Speaker 2 [14:34] I love that quote.

Speaker 1 [14:35] It was great,

Speaker 2 [14:36] a laser. Good job, Tanya.

Speaker 1 [14:38] Great job, Tanya. I, I saw her at Starbucks, but I was a little too fangirled out to say anything because we don't actually know each other. She's very nice,

Speaker 2 [14:44] I'm sure.

Speaker 1 [14:45] But yeah, I mean, and, you know, like I did a, a panel at Brewbound Live a couple of years ago on, on middle tier distribution stuff and it was me and all women and I felt about it the exact same way that, that you do. I was like, let's not even call it out, call attention to it, we'll act like this is normal, so.

Speaker 2 [15:02] But I'm also glad that you called it out on here,

Speaker 1 [15:05] right? That's the thing. It's this is like a weird like.

Speaker 2 [15:08] You can't totally ignore

Speaker 1 [15:10] it. You can't totally ignore it. Well, Kelly, this has been so good. What has been your favorite thing about CBC in Vegas this week?

Speaker 2 [15:16] Well, I mean, Vegas has been, like you kind of asked in the beginning, um, it's a lot. Being in Vegas has been a lot more chill than I expected. Um, you know, we always have wonderful speakers. I would say. That's, you know, there was like the whole Thrive sessions and um things like that, but I feel like. There's just been a lot of progress and look, there's a lot more to go, but I feel like overall the situation here feels safe. It's nice and it's just been wonderful meeting tons of new brewers, um, especially from all over the country that have had the chance to be elevated to higher platforms. So it's been really good talking with leaders in, in more diverse groups, um. But also, you know, Vegas is just a good host city

Speaker 1 [16:09] for sure. Perfect place to leave it. I know you're so busy, so I'm so glad you took the time to chat with us today.

Speaker 2 [16:13] Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 [16:14] You're welcome.