Learning Lounge: How Coffee Fortified Death of the Fox’s AM/PM Business

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Next on the Brewbound Podcast, step into the Learning Lounge. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:47] Jessica Infante: I'm Jessica Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:50] Justin Kendall: And this week is the first in our series of Learning Lounge Taproom Tactics series of podcast interviews. And Jess, you have really spearheaded this, so I'm going to turn it over to you.

[00:01:04] Jessica Infante: Yeah, well, you know, I just noticed that there were some really interesting and innovative revenue streams coming out of, you know, breweries that I was seeing online. And I thought, let's talk to people who are doing some of these things and just have, you know, some really like simple nuts and bolts chats about different ways to draw on a different line of revenue. I know everybody's kind of hurting out there right now. So I figured it would be really helpful to just, you know, have people learn from their peers. Think about it as the podcast equivalent of a lunch and learn. But yeah, this week we are talking to Chuck Garrity, who is a co-founder and co-owner of Death of the Fox. They're a brewery in New Jersey that kind of from the start were like half coffee house and half tap room. And they've really embraced the coffee house part of things. They roast their own coffee. They are pretty busy in the mornings. And we really talked to Chuck about what... If you're interested in this, which I know a lot of brewers are and a lot of brewers are doing this already, what do you have to do? I mean, you'll hear him talk about it later in this episode, but basically, what are table stakes for standing up a coffee business in your taproom?

[00:02:09] Justin Kendall: Yeah, we're going to dive all into it. We're going to do it for the next four weeks, starting this week. And if you've got something going on that's sort of innovative outside of beer, and it's really working for you, we want to hear from you. So reach out to us at podcast at Brewbound.com.

[00:02:28] Jessica Infante: Yeah, to give you a little taste of what else we're going to cover, we'll talk about slushy machines, we'll talk about onset Airbnbs. We should be talking about how to enhance. I know we talked about this a few weeks ago, but we'll be talking about like ways to enhance family friendly experience if that's a road you want to go down. So if you're doing something that was, you know, just like maybe a simple tweak that made you think, holy cow, this is actually bringing in some real money and is meaningful to our business. Like give us a shout.

[00:02:55] Justin Kendall: Yep. Reach out to us at podcast at Brewbound.com. We'd love to hear from you. We'd also love to hear from some wholesalers out there too, for ongoing series that we just sort of started where it's a middle tier market check.

[00:03:12] Jessica Infante: Look, we're just like all the alliteration, all the names, brand the things.

[00:03:18] Justin Kendall: We've done two of these so far. We've talked to Chris DeFonsi with Columbia Distributing. We've talked with Peter Heimark from Heimark Distributing, but we'd love to hear from more of you out there. So reach out to us at newsatbrewbound.com. Newsatbrewbound.com. Yeah. That'll go to all three of us. Before we hop into the episode, we gotta plug Brewbound Live. It's coming up December 10th and 11th in Marina Del Rey. We've announced two guests so far. Last week, Zoe and Justin talked about NIQ's Kaylee Theriault and Three Tier Beverages' Mary Mills, who are coming back and giving us a state of the industry perspective. You can find out more information about BrewBoundLive at brewboundlive.com. Tickets available now.

[00:04:09] When Death: And the room blocks open. So if you're an early planner, now's your chance.

[00:04:14] Justin Kendall: All right, well, it's the 4th of July week and sales are going great out there, obviously for everybody, as we've seen scans lately. And we don't have to dive into that, but I think I would like to dive into the deal that we saw last week with Barrel One. Acquiring Greater Good in you all's neck of the woods of New England. This is the 15th brand coming into the Barrel One collective, which is Harpoon, Smutty Nose, Wachusett'Fox Brewing, Clown Shoes UFO. I don't want to go through them all because I'm going to fail this test.

[00:04:54] When Death: Yeah, Lone Pine, we even got some Beyond Beer stuff in there with Duncan Spike, the Crystal Light beverage that's out. There's a lot going on in that portfolio now.

[00:05:06] Justin Kendall: So how'd this come together?

[00:05:08] Jessica Infante: Well, it all starts in Worcester, really, which is where Greater Good is located and where Barrel One and Harpoon founder Dan Canary is from. So I guess Dan and Paul, the founder of Greater Good, kind of just got linked up through friends, had a really great lunch in Worcester. I believe what Dan said to me and Zoe, which we put in the story, was, holy shit, he's great. We see the world in the same way. Dan was in such a good mood when we talked to him last week. It's nice to talk to somebody in beer who's happy. But yeah, they met through mutual friends, realized they agreed on a lot about the business and just life and stuff. And Paul is going back to MIT to pursue another degree. you know, kind of wanted to figure out an exit and found one. And what I think is interesting here is that, yeah, Barrel One has a metric crap ton of brands, but they don't really have anything that plays in this space. And this space is important. And by this space, I mean like higher ABB Imperials. Greater Good is an all Imperial Brewing. Their core family is all above 8% ABV. And nobody in the Barrel One bunch really has anything that kind of plays there. So this will give them entree there.

[00:06:22] When Death: And we know how big that segment is or the high ABV world is right now for craft. That's one of the main areas where craft breweries are still able to find some sort of growth right now. it's almost surprising that they didn't have really something playing in that already. And this is going to be big for them.

[00:06:41] Jessica Infante: Yeah. It's been interesting to me to see how, you know, like what's growing in craft right now is these high ABV Imperial Hazy IPAs. And the style came out of New England, which nobody I think would ever deny. But the breweries that are really winning here are from the West. So I don't know if the window is closed on creating another like nationally distributed 9% ABV 19.2 ounce can IPA, but maybe not.

[00:07:13] When Death: marijuana is really focused on New England. Even though they have all these brands now, they have, like you said, 15, they're not really looking to make them big national brands. They really want to keep this pretty New England focus. They want to have a dominance on the Northeast and stick to that region to make sure they can kind of have a little bit going on throughout the entire region.

[00:07:38] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I mean, the only non-New England based brand they have is Five Boroughs in Brooklyn, which was part of Finest Kind, which is the smutty side of this roll up.

[00:07:48] Justin Kendall: Well, if you've got 15 brands, there's probably a 16th around the corner, right?

[00:07:54] When Death: Oh yeah. Dan made it clear that they're not slowing down on adding to their portfolio. He said when we talked to him last week, he said he had another call coming up this week to possibly talk about more things happening. So he's open to having other like-minded people or like-minded brands. They're not like rushing to reach some number, I don't think, or try to just keep adding on for the sake of adding on, but he was very much, if there are people who have similar goals to us, who have similar business mindsets to us, and we can have kind of a mutually beneficial relationship, then we're open to it. And it's something that it seems like a lot of people are interested, particularly in New England and in the Northeast right now. I mean, just in Massachusetts alone, we've seen so much consolidation. So it's something that a lot of folks around here are looking to or looking for.

[00:08:46] Jessica Infante: And whenever we talk to somebody who mentions like, hey, I am open to the idea of making an acquisition, I always am kind of like, are you sure you want us to write that? Because you're going to get real busy. But they always say yes. So if you're in New England, you think you'd get along with Dan Canary and you'll want to sell your brewery, give him a call.

[00:09:07] Justin Kendall: Insiders had the inside track on that story. They've also had the inside track on our middle tier market check stories. They've also been reading everything else that we've got. So if you're interested in any of that, become an insider today.

[00:09:25] Fox Brewing: This episode is brought to you by the Craft Brewers Conference, where big ideas, bold beers, and brutally honest shop talk collide. Join thousands of industry pros leveling up their game. Don't miss it. Register now at CraftBrewersConference.com.

[00:09:45] Justin Kendall: Before we get to our featured interview, let's play Another Round of Tabbing Out, and it seems like we are in the full throes of 1990s nostalgia. I want to say this feels like it started to really sink in with me when I watched Yellow Jackets because then I felt really old. And now I feel even older because Garage Beer just launched a, basically they're giving away a water bed that you can fill with beer. It's not a great idea as far as waterbeds go because I have no nostalgia for them as someone who previously had a waterbed. It was awful. I have so many questions.

[00:10:28] Jessica Infante: When did you have the waterbed?

[00:10:31] Justin Kendall: Too long and probably long enough to ruin my spine curvature.

[00:10:36] Jessica Infante: Did you ask for this or was it just a...

[00:10:40] Justin Kendall: This seemed to be like a full family thing where it was like everybody was getting one. It was like, you know, if I could go back in time. So you guys got a deal. We must have got a deal. Yeah.

[00:10:55] Chuck Garrity: And is it comfortable? I assume it's comfortable at first, right? I don't think it's that comfortable, to be honest with you.

[00:11:00] Justin Kendall: Like at first you're like, this is cool. And then it's like, no, no, it's not. And like the day that I got rid of the waterbed was like a glorious day.

[00:11:10] Jessica Infante: Top five best day of your life?

[00:11:11] Justin Kendall: I don't know if it was top five, but it might've made the top 50.

[00:11:14] Jessica Infante: All right. And how old were you?

[00:11:17] Justin Kendall: When I got rid of it? But like when you got it? too young, like way too young. Yeah. It was probably junior high, something like that. Occasionally you trot out one of these really fun facts. Is a waterbed talk really fun? I think so.

[00:11:34] When Death: Yeah. It's like one of those things where you know about it and like feel like at one point somebody always wanted a waterbed, but never really knew somebody who really did have a waterbed. your whole family had waterbeds.

[00:11:45] Jessica Infante: This should be one of your standard two truths and a lie thing. Yeah.

[00:11:48] Justin Kendall: That I had a waterbed.

[00:11:49] When Death: That it was like a family thing. Yeah.

[00:11:52] Justin Kendall: Okay.

[00:11:52] Jessica Infante: The next time you're in a two truths and a lie situation, text me and I will tell you what to tell the people.

[00:11:58] Justin Kendall: Okay.

[00:11:58] When Death: Remind you about your life.

[00:12:00] Justin Kendall: Yeah. And add it to my Wikipedia page. Do you have a Wikipedia page? I do not have one. Okay. Well, there's a lot of nineties nostalgia now. Have you watched TV recently? Have you watched any type of streaming because Instacart's out there pushing summer like it's 1999. Oh, really?

[00:12:19] Jessica Infante: That's actually kind of fun.

[00:12:20] Justin Kendall: It is kind of fun. Yeah, they're doing 90s pricing. The ads are cute. It's like a mom and daughter and the mom's like showing the daughter how to like, warm up like pizza rolls and they're not pizza rolls. It's like the bagels, the bagel bites. Yeah. The bagel bites doing all that. The super soakers blowing on Nintendo cartridges. It's a little joys.

[00:12:47] Jessica Infante: I appreciate this because this is my life.

[00:12:49] Justin Kendall: I'll show you the commercial. OK, please do. I should have before this.

[00:12:54] Jessica Infante: I don't know. I'm here for it. I have not watched. I'm not current on Yellow Jackets. I've seen the first two seasons and then it got a little too scary for me.

[00:13:01] SPEAKER_??: OK.

[00:13:02] Justin Kendall: Well, I'm up to date, but.

[00:13:04] Jessica Infante: Okay. The pregnancy storyline was. It's a lot. As a formerly gestating person. But I will say season one, like the North Jersey mid to late nineties soccer girl vibes are immaculate. Like that is. Accurate.

[00:13:19] Justin Kendall: Yeah. So are you buying Another Round or Tabbing Out on nineties nostalgia seeping into our culture the way it is now?

[00:13:29] Jessica Infante: I will buy that round.

[00:13:31] Justin Kendall: Will you?

[00:13:31] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I'll open a tab on that.

[00:13:34] Justin Kendall: Alright.

[00:13:34] Jessica Infante: I have an amazing summer throwbacks Spotify playlist.

[00:13:38] Justin Kendall: You should hit up Garage Beer.

[00:13:40] Jessica Infante: I should. Put it in the show notes.

[00:13:44] Justin Kendall: Zoe, you're just laughing at the old people. As someone who didn't live in the 90s.

[00:13:49] When Death: Born in the 90s.

[00:13:50] Justin Kendall: Okay.

[00:13:51] When Death: Yeah First like five and a half years of my life. Yeah Well, I feel like a little bit of deja vu not because we're talking about the 90s, but because I feel like we've talked about Nostalgia a bunch. Mm-hmm. I feel like specifically like 90s nostalgia comes back like every eight to ten years It becomes a thing again. Yeah, like there was a I want to say it was like right before the pandemic, like 2018, 2019, there was Charlie XCX song that came out that was like 1999. And that kind of started this whole like 1990s nostalgia thing again. Right now, I've been seeing a lot of like, not just 90s, but a lot of early 2000s things come back like fashion wise and trends wise. Jelly Shoes are back, which is the one I think about all the time.

[00:14:41] Jessica Infante: I just bought Cora a pair.

[00:14:44] When Death: Great for children, adorable children. I don't think any adult should be wearing jelly shoes anymore. I know what they smell like. Yeah.

[00:14:55] Justin Kendall: Aren't they incredibly painful too?

[00:14:58] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:14:59] When Death: Not a lot of arch support in those things, that's for sure. What would drinking like it was the 90s be like? That I couldn't tell you. Can't say I was participating in drinking culture. Yes.

[00:15:10] Jessica Infante: To me, that's like Mike's Hard and Smirnoff.

[00:15:13] Justin Kendall: Yeah.

[00:15:14] Jessica Infante: They mean refreshers. Yeah. I mean, I haven't had a Smirnoff ice in years. I cannot think of what their carbonation level is like. Is that the original refresher? I think it is.

[00:15:27] Justin Kendall: Do you think 90s nostalgia can compete with 1980s nostalgia? That's a good question. Because that 1980s generation is one that will never let it go.

[00:15:40] Jessica Infante: So I was getting my car serviced months ago and the car dealership was clearly playing like the wedding singer soundtrack. I know because they had the CD. And then I started thinking about The Wedding Singer and I looked it up and I was like, what year did this movie portray? And I believe it was 1985. And the difference, it was only 13 years different from when the movie came out to when it was supposed to be set. But it felt like you were watching another time. And so then I was like, interesting, if somebody were to do that today, what year would they be setting a movie in? And it's 2012. Are the times that different? Like, I don't think we will have the ability to do this again. You know, I think the 90s are like the last real, that was like a time capsulated time, for lack of a better word. Right? You know, we don't really have the monoculture anymore.

[00:16:34] When Death: Yeah. Well, like that's my high school years. If that was turned into a movie, it would be a lot of like colorful skinny jeans, iPod touches.

[00:16:47] Jessica Infante: Obnoxious necklaces.

[00:16:49] When Death: Obnoxious necklaces. Early iPhones.

[00:16:52] Jessica Infante: Scarves that serve no function.

[00:16:54] When Death: Yep.

[00:16:54] Jessica Infante: And what were people drinking? What was craft then? Like West Coast IPAs? Probably.

[00:16:59] Justin Kendall: Wheat and pale ale.

[00:17:02] Jessica Infante: I was at Sam Adams, but that's not like always a good indicator of what the rest of craft was doing.

[00:17:07] Justin Kendall: Early 2010s. That sounds about right to me is pails and weeds. Like your entry point beers. Yeah, like fruited weeds.

[00:17:18] When Death: Trying to think of like what I would see people, like my parents drink, all I can think is like Bud Lights and Twisted Teas.

[00:17:26] Justin Kendall: I think you're onto something too with West Coast IPA though.

[00:17:30] Jessica Infante: And that was like the IBU arms race era.

[00:17:34] Justin Kendall: It just hits the Midwest a little later. So I think we're all pretty much buying Another Round. Does that sound right?

[00:17:41] When Death: As long as we don't bring back like heroin chic, which is borderline with GLP one usage now, but other than that, I'll buy Another Round.

[00:17:52] Justin Kendall: All right. With that, let's get to our featured interview with Chuck Garrity of death of the Fox.

[00:18:01] Jessica Infante: Our next guest is Chuck Garrity, president and founder of Death of the Fox Brewing in my home state of New Jersey. Chuck, thank you so much Fox Brewing here. How are you?

[00:18:11] New Jersey-based: I'm great. How about you?

[00:18:12] Jessica Infante: Good morning. Thanks. Good morning. So Chuck, I have had my eye on your brewery for a few years now. You were super vocal during the New Jersey craft brewers fight to overturn those really strict taproom restrictions that was ultimately successful. So congrats. I know you're no stranger to speaking about that, but your business model really caught my eye because Death of the Fox is New Jersey's first combined brewery and coffee house. I know a lot of breweries are starting to look at coffee service as an alternative to seek revenue in a different day part than traditional Taproom Tactics, but beer and coffee are two types of businesses that are notoriously time-intensive. So what made you want to enter both fields at the same time?

[00:18:51] New Jersey-based: Well, I spent 20 years in corporate. I worked for a large management consulting firm, which eventually got bought by KPMG. I was with Pricewaterhouse after that. I spent a lot of time on the road and a lot of time out in the West Coast. And during that tenure, I visited a bunch of different, I'd say much more innovative models in terms of business concepts and breweries that were doing something else other than just brewing. As you know, in the state of New Jersey, there are a lot of restrictions when it comes to what you can do and what you can't do. And essentially, I said, you know what, I want to maximize my tasting room investment and utility by having an AM, PM business that caters to making amazing beverages, whether they're caffeinated or whether they have alcohol. And so to me, it was a similar customer. People who love good beer tend to really like good coffee as well. And my goal was always to have an on-site coffee roastery. So to be able to produce and roast the coffee in the same way that we produce fresh beer, we're producing, you know, with the brewery, we are in the same respect, we're doing that with the coffee as well. So to me, it just made sense in terms of a business model.

[00:20:14] Justin Kendall: Death of the Fox opens daily for coffee service at 8 a.m. and beer starts pouring at noon.

[00:20:21] New Jersey-based: What are the mornings like at Death of the Fox? Busier and busier, you know, the coffee has really kind of taken over in terms of just in terms of our daily traffic when we first opened. It was kind of a new concept and, you know, we had a good morning business, a lot of carry out, but now we're seeing just a very steady, very busy, a lot of students, a lot of professionals, meetings, that type of thing. A lot of people like working at our space, you know, so they actually, they'll just bring up their laptop. If they work from home, they'll come in with their laptop and they'll work for hours. And then maybe they'll treat themselves to a beer after, but they'll typically be drinking coffee most of the time or many of our other beverages as well.

[00:21:12] Jessica Infante: That sounds like a great work day to me. When did you notice that shift start? Do you think this is a COVID thing?

[00:21:18] New Jersey-based: Well, yeah, the shift definitely started. So I'll take you back. So when we first opened in 2017, we outsourced our coffee to another roaster. When COVID happened in 2020, we had to close our tasting room for six months. So essentially, you know, we were at the point where I wasn't allowed to have customers in my tasting room. So originally it was in the four to five year plan to start roasting on site. And we moved that up during COVID. So we bought additional space. We built out the roastery and building out the roastery and starting to roast on site really was a game changer for us. Once that happened and then we started to manufacture and sell our coffee both for wholesale and retail, suddenly word got out that around our coffee element and then also as an extension of that, well, this place does both. I think when we first started, people didn't know what to think of it because it was such a new concept in Jersey, especially the fact that we didn't do food, right? So they're like, wait a second, You do beer, you're serving coffee, but I can't have a muffin. And I was like, well, welcome to New Jersey. So basically that was the law that now we were able to get some things changed so we can do prepackaged food. And, you know, we do have breakfast options, you know, like that type of thing, but nothing prepared on site. That's the key thing in Jersey. If you have a brewery, you can't have prepared food and like a kitchen on site. You know, I heard something and it made sense to me is that, you know, for us, I think it really took five or six years to develop our brand where people really understood, OK, this is what they are. And you would think that coffee and beer. OK, well, it's a brewery and a coffee roastery. You know, it took some time for, for that to sink in with people. And I, I've heard this said before that, you know, sometimes it takes over five years to really develop a brand and get out there and have people really understand what you do. And I think that was the case with us, you know, now, the interesting thing is that when we first opened beer was about 75, almost 80% of our sales. Now, flash forward eight years later, coffee, in terms of the total company, is about 70% of our sales.

[00:23:47] Chuck Garrity: Wow.

[00:23:48] New Jersey-based: Beer is about 20 to 25%. Wow, that's a huge shift. And still strong. Yeah. I mean, still, you know, very much, beer's not going anywhere. And, you know, I'm very much like, I'm of the philosophy of, you know what, let it flow. Follow where the river takes you. Don't fight against the current. And I tell entrepreneurs and business owners that because it really is like and what my customer was telling me was we love this combination of things. but we really love the coffee. And the other thing that was convenient for me, and this is before alcohol in general started taking a dip, and we all know about that, right? About, you know, people are drinking less alcohol these days. But this was back in 2020-21. To me, it made sense more in the fact that I didn't have the restrictions on the coffee side that I had on the beer side from the state. So the state had all of these things around having events and requiring tours and all the stuff we talked about. So to me, a logical way to focus my business, given that uncertainty and that variable that was the state of New Jersey-based how they regulated the brewing industry, My focus was to pivot to coffee and grow that side. And then once it got all sorted out on the beer side, then of course, but due to that in COVID, it was just a matter of those things happening at the same time and, you know, kind of following the wave where it took me. And the wave was more towards coffee and that's fine.

[00:25:29] Jessica Infante: That's so interesting. So for any of our podcast listeners who might be interested in introducing coffee at their own breweries, What would you say are the table stakes of creating a coffee menu that's attractive to customers? I am not a coffee nerd, so I probably am going to say this in a weird way. That's not right, but would you say there's something along the lines of if you're not going to do espresso-based drinks, don't even bother? Is that something that people need to hear?

[00:25:53] New Jersey-based: I would have said that a few years ago, but that's before the popularity of cold brew and really, you know, iced coffee and cold brew really has exploded. And I think if you want to go with, you know, the most inexpensive way, I mean, I would recommend everybody, anybody, if you want to run a proper coffee house or a coffee shop, buy a high grade, very good espresso machine. you don't have to go that way initially, especially for breweries. Cold brew coffee is, you know, buy yourself a 10 gallon igloo cooler, start cold brew coffee and, you know, start serving that in your nitro tap. That's how I would start if I was a brewery. And in terms of just being a brewery who wants to enter the coffee market, the most coffee-like product is nitro coffee for a brewery. So I would say, get that, and then maybe go from there. But understand that it really is how you market yourself. We market ourselves as much for the coffee as the beer. So in order to do that, we have to make a significant investment into our coffee side. So if you're going to market yourself, as a coffee house, as a place where people can go and utilize your tasting room that way, you might want to put away 40 or $50,000 and do it right. If you're not marketing yourself that way, and if you are just focused on saying, hey, we have an alternative non-alcoholic coffee options, cold brews and nitro coffee and that type of thing, you can do that for much less. But it really depends on how you market yourself. I wouldn't market yourself as a coffee house without making that investment.

[00:27:34] Justin Kendall: Chuck, I'm curious, where do you think Death of the Fox would be if you hadn't have gotten into coffee service?

[00:27:41] New Jersey-based: I think we would be in the same position as quite a few other breweries. It's incredibly challenging in the state of New Jersey, especially because we don't have the food option. It's funny because, you know, a common question I get is, oh, when did you start coffee? You were a brewery and then you started coffee. No, we were coffee from the very beginning. What we decided to do two or three years into it, was to start roasting our own coffee on site. That's the difference. But we always were, you know, coffee and beer. We literally have T-shirts. I'm not wearing it today. But, you know, we literally have T-shirts that just say coffee and beer. That's it. And that's very simple. It's a simple message, and it's what we are. Trying to understand, you know, if we didn't have the coffee, I mean, I would be a little concerned, because the general downtrend in alcohol that we're seeing right now, but that's one of the reasons why I am kind of focused on further diversifying my company and getting into, you know, hemp based and, you know, cannabis products. So to me, that's a future. That's something that I'm fighting the state on, I say fighting, but trying to work with the state. We had a meeting with the governor's office last week to talk about the fact that in the state of New Jersey, You can buy intoxicating hemp drinks anywhere in, you know, any liquor store in the state that are made in breweries outside of the state. But in the state, we are not allowed to make those. We can only make malt-based products. So we're trying to kind of easily understand that, you know, The state of New Jersey-based a problem because they are selling this that's part of the three-tier system, right? Hemp drinks. So what I'm thinking about right now is hemp and cannabis. Coffee and the beer side is fine, but to me, that's going to be the immediate future in the next two to three years. And I think breweries have a large part to play in that.

[00:29:44] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, you're definitely not alone in having any of those thoughts. The news about what Greg Abbott just did in Texas to veto the ban in that state on THC or hemp-derived THC drinks. So definitely going to be a topic for quite some time to come.

[00:29:57] New Jersey-based: Yeah, yeah. So you know what? I just tell breweries that you have to embrace the future, right? Yeah. And I'm a home brewer. You know, I've been a home brewer for 20 years. I love making beer. I still help make our product, but you have to have an eye on what your customer prefers. And right now, and you know what? There's no doubt in my mind that alcohol is coming back. It'll be, you know, it's not going anywhere, but we're just seeing a little dip in the industry right now. So you have to do what you have to.

[00:30:22] Jessica Infante: I love what you said earlier about seeing where the river takes you because your brand isn't what you say it is, it's what your consumers say it is. Correct. So you can't force people to buy stuff from you they don't want. So when they show you with their money what they're interested in and embrace that, it makes the most sense.

[00:30:38] New Jersey-based: Yeah. I mean, listen, I would love to make sours all day and I love sours, but I just don't see that customers are... You know, I mean, I'll have one on tap that was big four or five years ago. And, you know, this industry is just constantly. evolving and morphing and changing. And, you know, it is just, and that's one of the reasons why I love it. But it's also challenging, especially when, you know, you have the public narrative is unfortunately right now, there's a lot of stuff coming out, you know, that's not favorable to alcohol, you know, federal studies and, you know, this and that. And I think that that slowly gets into people's heads, especially this next younger generation. So I'm thinking about what are the Gen Z's doing And what are they interested in? Because that's really, you know, the millennials, you know, they're all home with their families now. They're not going out to breweries like they did 10 years ago. You know, we have to admit that as an industry. We have to understand that, you know, we have a changing customer demographic and we just have to ride the wave, as you said.

[00:31:44] Jessica Infante: I am one of those millennials who is home with her family and not out and about anymore. So thinking about your day of service being open for sometimes at least 12 hours, having worked at a brewery, what I think of here is how hard that must be to staff. What do your staffing challenges look like and what can other brewers learn from the knowledge that you've gleaned from doing this for a few years now?

[00:32:07] New Jersey-based: It's definitely a unique skill set. And what I try to do is, number one, we have very low turnover here. We treat our people great. One of the things that I love about my business most is my team and my staff. And you got to treat your people well, and you have to make sure that they're invested in the business. They understand they are a critical part of, you know, I try to promote within try to, you know, people start off as a barista, promote them to a supervisor, to a manager, to, you know, my general manager. So I have that operation. I have about, let's see, 20, 28 people now, part-time, a few full-time. I hire on those things, those intangibles, personality, customer service, intelligence. I can train the coffee side and I can certainly, you know, the beer side is just a matter being able to have a comfortable conversation. Is it good if they have previous experience in either coffee or beer? Yes, but it's not a requirement. I hire the person and then we provide the training. And I find that if you hire the right people and train them well, that's the key thing. And it's especially, you know, finding that skillset of being a barista, in addition to being knowledgeable on beers, that's certainly there are some people who it requires multitasking. Right. You have to be able to do two or three things at once. You're making a latte while taking an order while pouring a flight of beer. That is a certain skill set that people if they're not comfortable with doing multiple things at the same time and that busy environment that kind of stressful, but also, you know, some people thrive in that environment. Those are the people that we hire. I'm curious from a profitability standpoint, beer versus coffee, which one is sort of driving more revenue? Coffee is definitely driving more revenue in terms of where we are right now. And one other thing just to let you know is that we have now three locations. So our primary location is a brewery. and a coffee roastery, right? Our second location is coffee and food, no beer. Third location, we are part of a larger building, which is a cannabis dispensary and wellness center. And that's why I'm very involved in the hemp cannabis thing now, especially because that's where our third location is gonna be. Because of the second location, especially, we're located right in the center of town in a very large university, Rowan University in South Jersey. So we see a lot of college. It's growing demographically. There are a lot of townhouses and condos around us. So essentially, that's all coffee, mostly. Food is kind of a complement to it. I would say coffee is now about 65% of our total sales, our total revenue. Coffee, like products and teas and all that kind of stuff. I'm lumping everything together into that. In terms of profitability, the beer is still more profitable, especially now we're dealing with a coffee market. Right now, the coffee market's kind of unstable. I'm paying almost double the amount for green beans than I paid just nine months ago due to the tariffs and everything. I could not get beans from Mexico for six months. And people love our Mexican Chiapas. And I just, I couldn't, I couldn't get that bean. I couldn't source it because the tariff and all of the unknowns around that. We've definitely taken a bit of a hit on our profitability. but overall coffee's driving, driving a lot of the revenue. The beer though is who we are. That's our soul. And we will always be death of the Fox at a heart will always be a brewery. And then the extensions and the additional locations. That's kind of why, like from a branding perspective, our second location is called high grounds, coffee roasters, not death of the Fox, because we didn't want to have that brand confusion, right? people coming to our second location, expecting beer and being disappointed. So even though it's, you know, death of the Fox is in the name, but it's known as high grounds, coffee roasters. And people were like, well, why did you do that? Don't you want it's we're still promoting death of the Fox is the product and that's the beans. But in terms of the location, and that's something that if anybody, you know, breweries are looking to get into coffee, it's something you have to think about. you know, because if you have additional locations that might not have, you know, you have to deal with a different town and different ordinances and that type of thing that they may not, you know, it might be a dry town that you want to move into. We have those in South Jersey, right? We have towns that are just dry that are not going to allow beer to be sold in that town. So in that case, how is, you know, your decision to open up this new product category going to affect your branding and marketing? because when it comes down to it, you have to kind of think about, okay, we don't want to be everything to everybody. And in my case, I'm focused on two things. And now a third thing, which is cannabis.

[00:37:27] Jessica Infante: Awesome. You know, I did take a peek at both your beer and coffee menus, but the coffee menu was really fun. You had so many like really different and innovative flavors for lattes. I remember seeing a Reese's latte. I want to say there was a blueberry muffin special, sounded delicious.

[00:37:42] New Jersey-based: I think we have too many lattes to be honest. Like we have over 70 lattes right now. Wow. They're hyper seasonal. So almost like every other week we're coming out with a new type of latte. just getting creative with all of that. And that's great. And you can do that. That's the freedom of coffee versus beer. The other thing that I love about coffee is the fact that you roast it and it's available immediately. You don't have to worry too, you know, in the case of a lager, you know, waiting a month or waiting even for an ale two to three weeks, it's ready to go as soon as you roast it. I love that turnaround time.

[00:38:15] Jessica Infante: That's so much easier. How important is it to have all those options for your customers?

[00:38:21] New Jersey-based: It's interesting, we try to tell our customers, oh, this is only available this season, but they get so attached to the lattes, you know? There are people who just want that peppermint mocha. They love it, even though it's not Christmas time. So, okay, it's middle of June, have the peppermint mocha.

[00:38:40] Jessica Infante: Justin would drink pumpkin spice all year long if it were possible. So if you have pumpkin spice, Justin will probably be moving to South Jersey.

[00:38:48] Justin Kendall: I was just thinking about how I wanted a pumpkin spice latte today. Oh, 90 degrees. And that's what I want.

[00:38:57] New Jersey-based: You know what I did a couple of years ago, speaking of pumpkin, I just kind of set aside a sixth of our pumpkin ale. And I just had a Halloween in June day. And it had a fantastic turnout. You know, I tell people, make your own holidays. People love that. Right. So, hey, you know, we just came up with this idea where we're going to tap pumpkin, you know, our pumpkin ale in June. Come on out. The tasting room was packed and we just kind of created it out of the blue. You know, that kind of stuff fascinates me. certain things where people will be like, yes, you know, a lot of times in business, you create your own boxes and your own restrictions. I'm not saying I would release a pumpkin beer in the middle of June, but doing that is kind of a one off. It's kind of fun. People like it.

[00:39:47] Jessica Infante: People need some levity from the drudges of everyday life, and that's why people love that shit. I support summerween. I don't know if that's the phrase for Halloween in the summer. I keep hearing it. There are no rules anymore. I really understand and appreciate how coffee provides so much more flexibility than beer in a lot of ways.

[00:40:10] New Jersey-based: And it provides that option. It's a great option, for example, like a couple who comes in, maybe she doesn't drink, Maybe he enjoys beer or other way around, but having that option is a differentiator. And the thing is, you know, there are a couple other breweries that are doing nitro coffee, but to do like the full-on coffee espresso bar with everything, again, you know, it's something that people enjoy having that option. It's another thing that sets you apart from a brewery that's just serving beer, because that's all breweries can do in this state.

[00:40:46] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I mean, you guys can have a tougher go than pretty much every other state in the country in terms of what you can and can't do. So I love that you've, I love that you've thread this needle. Chuck, I think that's a perfect place to leave it. So thank you so much for joining us. It's been great getting to learn more about Death of the Fox.

[00:41:02] New Jersey-based: Thank you very much. Appreciate your time and have a great day.

[00:41:07] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Chuck Garrity from Death of the Fox for joining us. Thanks to Jess for hosting that interview. Thanks to Zoe and Jess for both co-hosting this episode. Thanks to our audio team for pulling it together. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.