[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: What's it like to try and open a brewery in 2022? Find out next on the Brewbound podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I am the editor of Brewbound and I'm joined by Jessica Infante, the managing editor of Brewbound. What's up, Jess?
[00:00:26] Sarah Real: Not much. How are you?
[00:00:28] Jessica Infante: I'm doing well. And also joining us is Brewbound reporter extraordinaire Zoe Licata. How you doing, Zoe?
[00:00:36] Mike Dell: I'm doing well. Glad to be here.
[00:00:39] Jessica Infante: We're always glad to have you here. And you weren't with us for a while. Over the last week, you were on the road, you're making the trip to New York to check out the new Juneshine taproom. What's it like?
[00:00:53] Mike Dell: Yeah, I made the nice little bus ride over to New York and I got to check out Juneshine Brooklyn, which is, you just described like, oh yeah, there's a hard kombucha tap room in like this trendy spot in Brooklyn, New York. It's exactly what you think it would be. It is very Instagram-worthy. It's a very aesthetic taproom with this cool little loungy spot in the back with a vinyl DJ and lots of wood paneling. It came out of a Gen Z or younger millennials like dream. It was quite an experience, but very interesting in that it's not typically what when you think of like a tap room, it's not what you would expect at all. It was more of a cocktail experience, even though they are pouring hard kombucha on draft and they have both their canned cocktails and their own cocktail recipes. It was something it was I felt like almost not cool enough to be there but I brought along a friend who lives in Brooklyn and we had mentioned to some of her friends we were going and they were all super excited about it and they're like oh this spot seems so cool we all want to go they didn't seem too turned off that it was hard kombucha this is my friend's first time trying hard kombucha and she really liked it So it was generally just positive experience and very different from a lot of other BevElk-related things that I've been to. It was quite refreshing.
[00:02:32] Jessica Infante: How would you compare it to, say, Taliyah's taproom? Because we just had Leigh-Anne from Taliyah at Brewbound Live, and there's definitely a vibe to their taprooms. So how would you compare?
[00:02:45] Mike Dell: Very similar, Leigh-Anne was actually there at the, so we went to a little media opening event and Leigh-Anne was there. Talaya and Joonshine have been like chatting through this whole process. Talaya's kind of been helping them figure out the Brooklyn scene and everything. And there's similarities in that they definitely both, my friend described it as they are living up to what they are presenting themselves as. So they are saying like, hey, we're a different kind of spot where it's going to be light, refreshing, lots of light colors, lots of like lighter fruit forward beverages, a very opening and social space. There was a lot of similar aesthetically things going on. And also a lot of women at this event and Talaya is also most of their consumer base is women as well. So a lot of crossover. That's awesome.
[00:03:40] Sarah Real: I can't tell you how tiresome some of the tropes of traditional craft beer tap rooms are. Super uncomfortable metal stools, really dark, very industrial Edison bulbs. It looks like sunlight never enters the space. I'm really glad to hear that some light and airy things are opening because I think we need more of that, particularly in the winter. I have a question though, Zoe. So we know that a big priority for June Shine is they're ready to drink canned cocktails. And you mentioned the cocktails. So are they serving them in the cans? If so, how are they serving them, like pouring them over ice? And are they doing any of their own mixing of cocktails? Because I'm really curious how RTDs will play in the on-premise, if at all. So I know this is a special case, but what did you say?
[00:04:30] Mike Dell: So they have both their canned cocktails in cans that you can drink. And then they also have their own, like they're mixing their own cocktails. It's a, I think I saw like maybe like eight different cocktail recipes. When I talked to Forrest Dean, who's one of the co-founders about this, earlier this year, he's like, we want it to still have the June Shine feel with these cocktails, where it's still going to have some unique flavors, and it's going to be fruit forward and things. And they are all a little funky and different. but it's like a cocktail lounge experience. A little pricey, I will say, a little high-end, but I think that's the vibe that they're going for is this is a little bit more of a high-end premium experience. Also, it's New York. Yes. Yes. In New York, in one of the most like trendy hotspots right now where they have some of the more premium experiences going on. Yeah, so you can they have the RTDs, which you can drink, you can drink them out of the can, but they also have regular cocktails. And then they have a little fridge as well where you can buy cocktails or their canned hard kombucha to go.
[00:05:41] SPEAKER_??: Cool.
[00:05:42] Jessica Infante: Yeah, this is going to be a little bit of our brewery opening show, although we're going to have some closings to talk about as well. And our featured interview this week is with the founders Hot Plate Brewing. Sarah and Mike will be here. They're going to discuss what it's like to try and open a brewery in 2022, and that might bleed over into 2023. And they're doing so in Western Massachusetts. So. A lot of fertile territory to open a brewery there. What's it like to try and start a brewery at this point? We're going to find out a little bit more a little bit later, but let's get into some more of those openings. And Zoe, you did some of the coverage of a big one that's going to be coming to Texas, which is Austin Beer Works, I guess, next world headquarters.
[00:06:30] Mike Dell: Yeah, TBD really on what that means. It seems like they are still planning out what is going to be coming to this this world headquarters. But yes, Austin Bureau Works has purchased 64 acres of lands in Austin, Texas for their new headquarters home. And they said they're really open to any possibility of what they can put here. They want it to be this hub for enjoying beer and enjoying Austin culture. But the first thing will be a tap room. And they're going about this in a little bit of an interesting way. They have admitted that, you know, buying 64 acres of land costs a lot of money. And so they have started this crowdfunding, membership-style crowdfunding campaign to help support the construction of the taproom so they can get it going as soon as possible. And so for $1,000, you can join this Beerworks for Life membership. The fund will go directly to the construction of the taproom and members get to have their first drink free at any of the Austin Beerworks taprooms. forever, so at every visit. So it's supposed to be this like, welcome to the special club, also help us build this tap room and be the first thing that we kick off in this new headquarters.
[00:07:47] Jessica Infante: The membership is pretty interesting. I'm glad you pointed that out because to get a project like this on 64 acres of land going, they're going to need a little bit of help apparently.
[00:08:00] Mike Dell: Yeah, they have straight up said, you know, this investment in the 64 acres, you know, it's a good investment for the long term, but we have some immediate needs now to get things off and running. And so they're looking to consumers for support in that. And their existing taproom is going to stay open after this taproom opens as well. And it will be their continued like working brewery where they're going to be doing their production. But they really want this new area of land to be, I see it very similar to what Anderson Valley has going on with their space where they want it to be this big recreational area that's not just a taproom, but it's also a place for family fun and They've already said they're going to have a disc golf course on there. So it's a full experience.
[00:08:48] Sarah Real: I was just in Austin this past September and spent a lot of time at Austin Beerworks. Shout out to Kinsey and Adam and Michael. They were so great and so welcoming and we really loved hanging out with them. But yeah, like their existing taproom has a great beer garden and it's a really nice spot. It's also like not too far from Austin's soccer team stadium, which is cool. So I get why they want to hang on to it. I think in a booming, you know, metropolitan area such as Austin, I think their plan sounds great. People are always looking for ways to hang out outside and drink beer, and particularly in that part of the world where it is so dang hot. I think they're really, they've got a great idea. And their club membership comes with what, like your first beer every visit is free, which I think is a great idea. Cause you've seen so many of these pop-ups that come with like free beer for life, but like that is such a, ends up being such a money loser.
[00:09:45] Mike Dell: Right. This one incentivizes you to come in, but you're still going to get purchases after that first beer. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:09:54] Jessica Infante: Definitely a bold move in 2022 slash 2023 at this point. Best of luck to them. And Jess, you had the story of a brewery that just refuses to die. And I had set up alerts for this brewery a long time ago, and they kept popping up in my feed. And every time I went to check on it, it was just a picture of John Fetterman. at the brewery because Senator Fetterman apparently held an event there once. But that's Weyerbacher in Pennsylvania and apparently new owners and the tap room is reopened after that very weird message that they posted the last time we checked on them.
[00:10:35] Sarah Real: Yeah, man, this is another one of those stories that I feel like we've kind of come full circle on because I'm sure you recall, because I recall my like first week on the team, I covered their first bankruptcy filing. So, you know, this summer, Weyerbacher filed for bankruptcy a second time and they've been acquired. They have new owners. So congrats to them. The new owner is Ed Lozano, who's the CEO of Savant Beverages, LLC. closed on the acquisition on October 3rd. And, you know, in the time that the taproom was closed in between, you know, Ed taking ownership and the taproom reopening, which it just did this week, they put in a new floor, they did some painting, you know, worked on a few things. So yeah, a lot of new news for Weyerbacher. New owners, newish taproom reopened. But yeah, man, they are like a cat with nine lives.
[00:11:30] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I mean, they just keep going. I was writing about them and this, what was supposed to be a majority stake sale to a private investment group in 2019. And they're filing for chapter 11 at the time, and you've followed up on that. And it's just been a roller coaster since, like I said, 2019 with this company.
[00:11:54] Sarah Real: Yeah. And they're, I mean, they're an interesting one to me because they are, they're old. Like as far as craft breweries go, they've been around, you know, like I grew up in New Jersey and they were always kind of a, a name that, you know, would be top of mind when you were thinking of craft beers in the area because they distributed there. Last year their production dwindled to 3,700 barrels, which I think is probably a steep decline from years past. But you know, with a very motivated new owner, I think You know, we could start to see that turnaround maybe. Ed told Lehigh Valley Live that they're building out entertainment space that can host as many as 750 people. He plans to keep the quote, big bold beers that Weyerbacher is known for, but they're also going to expand the portfolio to include some new additions because they really were known for their like super high ABV, like Belgian adjacent beers. My uncle Anthony is a big fan of Blithering Idiot. But, you know, Uncle Anthony is just one person who can't really keep a whole brewery in business.
[00:12:56] Jessica Infante: Your Uncle Anthony is not of Zoe's generation.
[00:13:00] Sarah Real: No, no, decidedly not. I helped him write his farewell letter when he was retiring from his job at an appropriate retirement age.
[00:13:08] Jessica Infante: Yeah. We have plenty of other stories up about openings. There's a lot of hermit crabbing going on. In Chicago, Hop Butcher has opened its first tap room, which used to be the former half acre facility. We've got City Barrel in the Kansas City area acquiring Beer Station, which was a bottle shop and tap room that I used to go to. There's a whole lot more. Hillman Beer is acquiring the former Catawba Brewing Facility in Morgantown. And then Funk Factory Gurza, or Gurzaria, I'm probably messing that up, has sold its taproom to Black Rose Blending and it's going to be rebranded as that, right?
[00:13:50] Sarah Real: Yeah, that's a fun story, actually, because Funk Factory Guzzeria, they're going to stay open. They're going to keep brewing. They're going to keep selling their beer, you know, into retail. But former director of operations Kyle Metz has acquired the taproom space from Levi Funk, the owner of Funk Factory Guzzeria. You know, Kyle really enjoyed his work, but he wanted to do his own thing. So I think this worked out for everybody because it sounded like Levi was getting ready to wrap up on on-premise stuff. And Black Rose Blending Company is going to you know, take the reins and open next year. Speaking of memberships, they're also selling memberships to their conservatory, which is their bottle club. 200 bucks, six bottles, exclusive glasses, taproom discount. You know, those those clubs are really interesting because I think if you do it right, they're really profitable and they're a great way to, you know, be able to, you know, have repeat traffic that you can rely on. But we've also seen some of them go terribly wrong. But this one to me sounds like a good deal.
[00:14:47] Jessica Infante: And not to be a pop-hot fish with a pop-hot face and spread the dreary-wearies all over the place.
[00:14:53] Sarah Real: Spoken like the true father of a one-year-old.
[00:14:55] Jessica Infante: Yes, we have read that book multiple times. We have some dreary-wearies to spread here. Unfortunately, there have been some closures that you're on the beat covering at the moment, Jess. Why don't you take us through a couple of the big ones, which are, you know, Logonitas shutting down its facility in Seattle and Bear Republic closing its, was it a seasonal brewpub?
[00:15:23] Sarah Real: So we'll start with Bayer Republic. Bayer Republic is closing their taproom at their Vronert Park brewery. They're closing it for the winter. They're hoping to reopen in the summer. So we'll see what happens, or rather in the spring, excuse me. But their CEO, Richard G. Norgrove, told the Santa Rosa Press Democrat that, quote, I just don't know how survivable it is under its current format. And he's not the only person saying stuff like that. You know, we've got a whole list of closings coming up. This one is interesting because, you know, Bear Republic was really, you know, like a bulwark of craft beer in the past, you know, decade, decade and a half. They were a top 50 craft brewer. When I first moved to Boston 12 years ago, they were everywhere.
[00:16:04] Jessica Infante: Racer 7. Racer 5. Racer 5. Racer 5. I'm sorry. Why am I thinking 7? Who knows?
[00:16:12] Sarah Real: You're thinking probably of Tank 7.
[00:16:14] Jessica Infante: Yes, I am. I clearly am.
[00:16:16] Sarah Real: Yeah. Well, maybe they could get together and have a little Racer 7 baby.
[00:16:20] Jessica Infante: The union of IPA and Saison that we've all been waiting for.
[00:16:24] Sarah Real: That sounds like something Jason Murphy would love.
[00:16:27] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.
[00:16:28] Sarah Real: So yeah, they're shutting the taproom. 40 workers are getting furloughed, which sucks, but this isn't the first time the Bare Republic has closed the taproom. Another one of my, I feel like this was like, I'm just getting nostalgic for her early Brewbound days week. Another story I covered back in the fall of 2019 was that they shut down their oldest brew pub, which was in Healdsburg. And I talked to Richard at the time and he, you know, he really, like, you could hear the pain in his voice. He was lamenting how the changing of that town, which is in the heart of California wine country, really, you know, did a lot of damage to the Brewpub's customer base. It went from being a town full of families with young kids to being, you know, All the houses are second homes owned by wealthy people who visit when they can, and it really just kind of deals in wine tourism. And he didn't say this, this is my own conjecture, but I assume how many of those houses you think are Airbnbs? Yeah, not their first rodeo in shutting a facility down. They've recorded double digit declines in production since 2017. That is certainly a case of the dreary-wearies going north up the West Coast. Lagunitas is shutting their Seattle taproom. Shout out to our friends at the Washington Beer Blog for breaking this news. Yeah, that's a bummer, but it follows a pattern that we've been seeing, which is national craft brands shutting down their taprooms in various markets that are not close to home for them. So Lagunitas has said they're going to focus on their taproom experiences in their hometown of Petaluma, California, and Chicago, Illinois, where they have a production brewery, which is about to reopen. I think it's been closed since COVID. So, I mean, that is a bummer, but I get it. You know, we've got plenty of examples of this happening. Dogfish Head, Miami, Ballast Point, Chicago. Yeah.
[00:18:17] Jessica Infante: There's any number of companies that have shut down their satellite tap rooms at this point.
[00:18:22] Sarah Real: Yeah. Deschutes, Roanoke.
[00:18:24] Jessica Infante: Yeah.
[00:18:25] Sarah Real: But in the case of Bear Republic and Lagunitas, both those brands are going to continue on in distribution. And obviously, in the case of Lagunitas, there are other tap rooms. But we've got a few other breweries that are just closing down and calling it a day. One of them is Rocket Frog outside of DC in Northern Virginia, opened in 2018, mostly functioned, I believe, as a tap room. But won two GABF medals for their Wallops Island Brown Ale. They're calling it, saying they just can't really continue. So is Shadowview Brewing, which is in the far Chicago suburbs, also said, quote, unfortunately, the current economic environment makes it impossible for us to sustain the profitability of the business. They also opened in 2018. So yeah, unfortunately, I do think things like this are going to continue. You know, if you didn't have that much time on the books pre-COVID, you're probably just reaching a point where you just don't really see it being viable. As we learned this year, when the Restaurant Revitalization Fund didn't get topped up, that maybe some people were relying on that government aid that just didn't come through. So it's really tough out there.
[00:19:33] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And they either received that money or in a lot of cases, companies that applied for it didn't get it.
[00:19:41] Sarah Real: Right.
[00:19:41] Jessica Infante: And we've seen it with the folks in San Francisco that closed down, I think it was Seven Stills. They mentioned not receiving the government funding and that being one of the reasons. So, yeah. And then we're unfortunately hearing a lot about layoffs and restructuring. We've confirmed layoffs at Odell Brewing. I think that was last month. Everything's been a blur. But unfortunately, I fear that we're going to see more of this, although As daily listeners like Jess and I know, there's 1.7 jobs for every job seeker out there right now. And hopefully these folks find new opportunities.
[00:20:24] Sarah Real: Yeah. And like shameless self-plug, there's plenty of jobs open on our job board right now. So go check that out. You know, like this industry is, is an odd duck. Like you have a very specific set of skills if you've worked in beer. And I'm sure there are plenty of other beer companies that are looking to scoop up that talent.
[00:20:42] Jessica Infante: If you've worked in beer, you're like Liam Neeson. You have a very specific set of skills. I like how you put that. So with that, I guess we'll plug that our Brewbound Live coverage is rolling out on the site. We have stories and videos up now. You can watch Bart Watson's presentation on It's the Industry, Stupid, I believe is what he said. We have free for everyone to watch our keynote speech with Bell's EVP, Carrie Yunker. Please go check that out. It's pretty awesome. We also have our conversation with beer buyers from Whole Foods and Buffalo Wild Wings up. You can go watch that, read those stories right now. They're up there, but if you want to stay tuned for our featured interview with Hotplate Brewing, that's up next. What's it like to open a brewery in 2022? We're going to chat with brewers who have either opened this year or are on the verge of opening. Our guests today are on the latter side of that. Joining us now are Sarah Real and Mike Delacqua from Hot Plate Brewing, which is opening in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, just before the end of the year. Welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. Thank you.
[00:21:59] Hot Plate: Thanks for having us.
[00:22:00] Jessica Infante: Yeah, we're stoked to have you here. So how long has Hot Plate been in the brewery and planning stage?
[00:22:09] Real and Mike: It's funny because I feel like that answer is more complicated than you would think. You know, I think it was something that in some ways, you know, Sarah came up with this idea, I don't know, 15 years ago or so. We went to Penn State together and after Penn State, we drove cross country and this was back in 2005. So craft beer was still smaller than it is today. It hadn't blown up like it is today. And when we stopped at New Belgium on the way across country, she was like, oh my God, I want to do this. And I was like, do what? She's like, this, all of this. And so in some ways, I think that was the kernel that started it. We started homebrewing or I started homebrewing first, actually in 2014, just as a way to kill time, make my own beer. I was not great at it. Sarah took up the hobby and showed that she was much better almost immediately. I think the incarnation of Hot Plate as a brewery and something that we really wanted to do was about 2017, 2018, where we were getting professionally restless a little bit and starting to think about what the next chapter of our life would be. We were living in New York City for a number of years, weren't planning on having kids. Our friends were all starting to have kids and move out, and so we were thinking about what the next chapter would be. But then at the same time we lost gas in our apartment, which is actually where the name Hot Plate came from, where, you know, Sarah didn't want to give up on the stream a second time. So she went out and got a Hot Plate and we started brewing on a Hot Plate so that we could keep perfecting our recipes and everything else. smash cut to covid and march of 2020 everything shutting down we're stuck inside we're still living in an apartment without heat and hot water and we're like basically bottoming out in life and we're like we need to do something but the upside was we weren't commuting to work anymore and we suddenly had a lot of time on our hands and so we started asking ourselves what would need to be true to actually start a brewery. In 2020, we started working on a business plan. We were still living in Brooklyn at this point, so we hadn't moved to the Berkshires Western Massachusetts and just started really understanding what would be required and doing some digging there. It came in phases and in waves, but basically from 2020 onward, we really were planning this in earnest and really trying to turn this hobby and passion into a business.
[00:24:23] Hot Plate: What were you all doing before this? So I'm still currently working. I do consumer insights for children's media. So I work at Nickelodeon.
[00:24:32] Real and Mike: Oh, awesome. Yeah she's always had fun jobs. Her first job in New York was at Cartoon Network Adult Swim. So I was always jealous of that. I have a marketing background. So I started working in retail marketing for Macy's and Brooks Brothers and then moved into sustainability. So I worked with municipalities and trying to increase their waste diversion efforts. So Not in beer, you know, not in the industry at all. But, you know, one of the things that's been nice is we've been able to kind of leverage our professional experience as we've been trying to start a business together.
[00:25:06] Jessica Infante: So when you're making the decision to leave, and I'm guessing you're leaving those careers behind and jumping headfirst into this, there's obviously a lot of risk to doing that. You know, what was it about this that made you both say, we can make this work?
[00:25:25] Real and Mike: I think it was, like I said, in 2020, just this complete bewilderment of the world around us, you know, and it was just this fact that like, we've been living, we've been living at that point in an apartment that had no heat and hot water for more than three years. And so it's like, we're working like crazy to live in basically third world conditions. And there's so much more to it that that would take its own podcast. I mean, we could like start a serial podcast about you know, what led to that happening. But basically it was like if we're working so hard and we're not seeing the returns in our day to day life because our living conditions are so terrible and then COVID was happening. And then on top of everything else, my mom got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer during that same period of time. It was like, well, playing it safe didn't really work for us. So let's actually think about taking this risk. Because it was COVID and we were able to work remotely, it was a calculated risk because we could take our salaries with us to basically ease into this transition. And I think that that You know it was terrible in a lot of ways but the one saving grace was that we could take our jobs with us and that wouldn't have happened pre covid where you know we're bootstrapping this like we're not a resource rich company we put a lot of our own money into this and you know found finances from other places you know but we looked at the opportunity here and. The cost of living is a little lower here, not as low as we thought compared to New York, but it's a little bit lower. And just started looking at what the numbers could be if we were able to do this. And again, Sarah working her day job for an extended period of time to just get that extra income and healthcare coming in while we get this started, we figured it was a calculated risk.
[00:27:03] Hot Plate: Yeah, so I'll be doing the brewing there, hopefully long weekends or early mornings and late nights so that I can still keep my day job for hopefully many months.
[00:27:14] Jessica Infante: It's a common refrain we hear is that a lot of folks who are getting in, they keep their day jobs. I've got a buddy in Kansas City who he was going to quit his day job a long time ago, and he's had the day job while running the brewery for several years. So it's not unheard of.
[00:27:33] Hot Plate: I feel like it's very much the norm. And then when you can finally be like, today's the day I quit, like that's a whole celebration in and of itself. You know, it's a huge step.
[00:27:42] Jessica Infante: Absolutely. So you all mentioned a little bit of Western Massachusetts and, you know, having just Western Massachusetts because, you know, cost of living. And so I see like you all moving from New York Western Massachusetts with the idea that cost of living is a little lower and me moving from Massachusetts to Iowa, where the cost of living is a little lower. But, you know, why the Berkshires? Western Massachusetts? You know, was it the craft beer scene here? Was it financial support? What was it about Mass that attracted you? And really, as far as that goes, Pittsfield for, you know, where you wanted to open your brewery.
[00:28:22] Real and Mike: I can start and Sarah can pepper it in. So what's funny is the Berkshires weren't really on our radar. You know, we get that question a lot since we've moved here, because this is a very sort of tight knit community. And so we tend to get these questions of like, you know, why the Berkshires? Because most people that live here have lived here for a long period of time, or maybe they grew up here and moved back. We have no family connection or sort of ancestral connection to the Berkshires. One of my writing mentors actually teaches at Williams. And so I was unrelated again to craft beer. I was coming up and doing writing workshops in Hancock, Massachusetts, which is just the next town over from Pittsfield. And when I was coming up here, I was like, oh, it's really beautiful up here. There are a lot of restaurants and cultural programming and there's things to do. And I sort of like tucked that away in my brain, like it wasn't like, oh, aha, we'll go here. When we were initially thinking about leaving the city and starting this company, we had initially thought we'd go upstate New York because we were just more familiar with New York and upstate in general. And then we felt like the Hudson Valley already had a lot of really good breweries. The Catskills already had a lot of good breweries. And we just didn't see that place being really an area where we could come in and be competitive. And then we also felt like it just didn't fit what we were hoping to find for where we would relocate just for our personal lives. So one of the things that was nice about the Berkshires was that, you know, there are all these like different towns that have their own kind of identity here. And so within, you know, 10, 20 minutes of each other, you can drive through all these different places and they all have their own look and feel and their own vibe. And in the whole county, there are only five breweries, you know, from basically north to south. So we felt like there was a hole in the marketplace here, especially when you look at that craft beer consumer. Demographics wise, they fit really neatly into the population that's here and the population that travels here as tourists. So we really felt like, hey, this seems underserved. And so we reached out to what is essentially the Chamber of Commerce here and said, like, hey, we think this area could use another brewery. What do you guys think? And they were very supportive, very excited about that idea. So we looked at different towns and different places, and then we ended up getting connected to the business development manager of Pittsfield. And we found out that they have economic incentives to help try to attract new businesses. And as I mentioned, we're a resource constrained company, like a lot of startups are. So we were able to put together a presentation, went before the mayor and what they call the mayor's red carpet team. So it's a mix of public and private individuals who review new businesses who want to come to town. And so the city of Pittsfield themselves are one of our biggest investors and they helped us get enough capital to procure the brewing equipment and that added a lot more legitimacy. So as we started to work on what that you know what they call the capital stack. But you know you're sort of source of funds having our friends and family our own personal investment and then the city of Pittsfield being an investor. It added a lot of credibility. So that was really exciting. And then just coming to downtown Pittsfield and seeing that it was an area that is, there's a lot of work to revitalize this area. It's really this iconic American Main Street, but there are a lot of vacancies right now. So having an opportunity to come in and be a part of, you know, bringing this area back online was something I think that was really exciting for us.
[00:31:40] Hot Plate: And I think for us, we basically all the travel we do is based. So, living in New York City for so long, we saw that there were so many people just kind of skipping through Connecticut Western Massachusetts to head up to the, you know, the Vermont beer trail. So, understanding that we're only a hop in a skip away from New York City. They have, they're starting the Berkshire flyer. They did a test program. So you can take. the train directly from Moynihan Station in New York City all the way to downtown Pittsfield and we're like two blocks away from the train station. But also looking at, because I was born in LA but moved to New Hampshire when I was eight, so I consider myself an East Coaster. And to me, I mean, we never went to Western Massachusetts. And so I was always like, okay, that's a whole nother state. We just were in Boston. But also, it's interesting now being here for a year that Western Massachusetts isn't the Berkshires. Western Massachusetts starts 45 minutes outside of Boston, and maybe you get to Springfield, middle. And then New York doesn't really want us. So, like, Berkshires is a very interesting county, so we're just kind of doing our own thing Western Massachusetts has more than, I believe, 220 breweries right now. So, obviously, mostly concentrated in and around Boston, and then you kind of have the rest of the state that could really use some help.
[00:33:00] Jessica Infante: Yeah, you're out there. Yeah. Yeah. When we say you moved Western Massachusetts, I mean, you moved to the edge of New York, basically.
[00:33:07] Hot Plate: Yeah, we're 20 minutes away from the point. There's a brewery. I'm wearing 20s right over the border in New York. And we go there often just because it's one of the closest ones.
[00:33:16] Real and Mike: I was going to say it's actually closer to go to that brewery than there's one in North Adams, which is in Berkshire County. And that's a longer drive than going to this other place in New York. So it's kind of funny just geographically where we're situated.
[00:33:26] Jessica Infante: And I believe there's maybe one other brewery in Pittsfield, is that right? Yeah. So it's fertile territory. It's about what, 43,000 people live out there?
[00:33:38] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.
[00:33:39] Hot Plate: for people, you know, people who aren't in the beer industry, you know, we're all competitive against big beer, essentially, you know, it's, it's very much community focused. And so when people are like, oh, there's already a brewery in Pittsfield, or there's one, you know, 40 minutes away, it's like, yeah, I think Asheville is doing okay. I think Boulder's doing okay, like the more the merrier in this industry.
[00:33:59] Real and Mike: In fact, I would say part of what's been challenging with the Berkshire beer scene is that there just isn't enough density, you know, and I think that when you think about that beer tourist What they want to be able to do is take a trip and say, okay, if we go here, we can hit, you know, over the course of a couple of days, like five, six, seven breweries, not like one or two. And so I think that density is, you know, it's one of those things that around here, because the whole Bertrand was very sort of agricultural and manufacturing driven historically. And because manufacturing has not been what it used to be, it's not as vibrant as it had been in the glory days. And so the idea of density doesn't really exist right now. And you have to kind of re-educate people that like, what does Starbucks do? They put a Starbucks across the street from a Starbucks. It's like that idea of you put a gas station across the street from a gas station because when one place is filled up, the overflow goes somewhere else. That is changing. I mean, I think that there's a lot of interest in the Real and Mike Sarah said, that Berkshire Flyer program, and there's also a train being worked on bringing people from Boston to here. So there's been a lot of economic development at the state level to try to bring people back to the Berkshires and remind people that it's here. And I know I sound like I'm working for the Tourism Bureau, but it's really beautiful here. And it really is this kind of hidden gem where You talk to some New Yorkers, and if they're of a certain age, they might know of Tanglewood or some of the like, you know, really high profile cultural attractions here. But for a lot of people our age, when we told them we're moving to Pittsfield, they're like, great, where's Pittsfield? You know, so I think there's an opportunity to really show, especially with like our peer group, it's not just Hudson Valley, it's not just the Catskills, you can also come up here. And there's also really cool stuff to do up here as well. So that's been part of our motivation is, you know, not just to start a brewery, but also to kind of help with just spreading the message of like, you know, coming to the Berkshires in general.
[00:35:49] Jessica Infante: So there's always delays in opening a brewery. When were you targeting to open? And when are you actually opening?
[00:35:58] Hot Plate: Target and my smile was like, last year target was as soon as the idea popped into our head, we were targeting start to middle of December, which is where we are now. We are currently in the classic conundrum that faces every brewery. We are waiting on licenses. So, right now we're reviewing we're under review for the, which is the state license and then we will be able to then apply for our local pouring license. So we're hoping. To have everything, you know, all taps full by mid to end of January, but if the licensing God's bless us. Last day 2022 I'll take it.
[00:36:40] Real and Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's a little hard to predict. So we expect the manufacturing license any day now. We're getting ready to just start brewing on site as soon as that comes in. So that could be as hopefully you know as soon as today. But you know the next week or two we expect that to come in. We are slated in the middle of the month to go before the local city licensing board. So what we decided to do, and this is a little inside baseball, but since this is a beer business podcast, I think it's okay to get in the weeds a little bit, but there are the two brewery licenses Western Massachusetts. There's the farmer brewery license and there's the pub brewery license. We decided to go with the pub brewer license because we felt like it was really important to have wine and cider and other drinks to offer our guests besides craft beer, especially because right now there's a little bit of a dearth of places to go out in downtown Pittsfield, so we want to make sure that everyone has something. Some people have gluten intolerances or they just under no circumstances will ever drink beer. We still want them to have a seat at the table, so to speak. Farmer Brewer's licenses, for those of you who don't know, they allow you to self-distribute, but you can only sell your own make in the taproom. Because of that, we do have to get the local city pouring license and that's contingent there. We're triangulating that. In the meantime, the taproom build-out is underway and we do expect that to be wrapped pretty soon. We're lucky that our landlord actually owns the construction company that's working on it. So that's been really helpful for us because they have prioritized this project. So we're not dealing with. a contractor and a bunch of subs that we have no control over, they're motivated as well because as soon as they get this done, they can start getting rent. I don't know that every time you're in a situation like this, you have that kind of cooperation from your contractors. I know when we were trying to get our condo fixed in Brooklyn, it was a crap sheet of when plumbers would show up and stuff like that. We've been extremely fortunate from there. As Sarah mentioned, I'm impatient. I wish we were open yesterday, but I am grateful that from the build-out perspective, we haven't experienced the kind of delays that you hear, I think, other people go through of just workers not showing up, materials getting held up, stuff like that. So on the build-out side, it's been great. On the licensing side, it's unfortunately that cliche that it's just the bureaucratic wheels of government taking a long time.
[00:38:58] Jessica Infante: So I guess with where things stand right now, what have been the biggest challenges in getting up to this point? And what do you see as maybe the challenges going ahead? Because, I mean, this has been a year of Supply chain issues. There's inflation. There's a labor shortage, depending on who you talk to. Costs of goods are going up. You know, it's always an issue with getting your stainless steel on time and all of that. So what have you had to deal with? What have been some of the challenges? And, you know, what do you expect the next round of challenges to be, I guess?
[00:39:35] Hot Plate: I think the biggest challenge has just been money. Because again, understanding how far back we had to plan for a lot of the stainless steel stuff, you know, and we were still trying to figure out friends and family, investors, all this stuff. It was just like, well, we need to put this deposit down to get it, you know, in X amount of time. And when we got our first quote in the spring, I believe the spring of 2021, to when we signed our contract for equipment in February 2022, steel went from like, I think they said $1.50 a pound to $6.50 a pound. I mean, that's ridiculous. So we're essentially paying for an extra fermenter that we're not getting. And so we did have to make some tougher decisions because it's like, okay, I want to get a mill. I want to do all this. And so there was a lot of stuff we had to cut out because just simply the brewing equipment was so tough. And it came, we ordered it in February, it came. The end of August, and that was quick for them because we were able another brewery was unfortunately delayed. So we were able to jump that queue, but I think it just started with money and then understanding those big. Stainless steel pieces and also the cold storage had a super long lead time because that had to be custom made for our space as well.
[00:40:49] Jessica Infante: It sounds like you bought new too. We did it.
[00:40:52] Hot Plate: Yeah. So I went back and forth a lot, spoke to a lot of different brewers because it is tempting, you know, you see, especially unfortunately with either breweries that have closed down during COVID or just never opened. So there's a lot of like, hey, you know, basically almost half price, but the people I'd spoken to. that bought used or, you know, new used equipment. In the end, it ended up being a nightmare because there was this piece missing or these specs weren't exactly correct. So the people that I've talked to that bought used were like, I would buy new even if it costs double. So that's why we did go new.
[00:41:27] Real and Mike: The other thing I was going to say is I think it's money on both directions. You know, when you ask sort of what's the biggest fear going forward. So because the budget ballooned and we had to take out a loan that was a bigger amount than what we were initially planning for, that means to hit the breakeven mark, you know, we have to do even more revenue. And so one of the things that we knew we needed to do, especially being a pub brewer where we're not going to be distributing, is that like, you know, we're going to live and die by taproom sales. And so there's going to be this need to drive people to our tap room and also for locals to drive that behavior change back to coming downtown. Like a lot of communities, you know, Pittsfield is technically a city, although it feels just basically like a suburb. And so, you know, we were just commenting yesterday when we were going to the hardware store that we drove by an Applebee's and the Applebee's parking lot was packed, you know, and we're like, well, why are those people not going to an independent restaurant downtown? I didn't want to get into all of the different elements and issues, but some people don't like parallel parking. Some people don't like paying for parking. By the way, there's free parking on the weekends and evening. But these kinds of things are all things we're having to consider of what barriers to entry for visitors are there going to be and how can we clear as many of them? One of the things that I've been doing just because I do thankfully have a content and marketing background is We've been really working the social media aspect very hard and trying to build a following that way so that when we open our doors Amanda Huang the shingle, day one is not the day when we're going to start trying to tell people we're here. We've been doing that. We've been doing pop-up events. One of the things we've been trying to do to quell that fear is to build as much anticipation as we can ahead of time One of the things that is nice about where we're coming from is we have this background of understanding the importance of this. And I think a lot of breweries don't necessarily have someone in-house who has that marketing knowledge on day one. And so it's hard enough to get this up and running, as everyone knows, but then you start worrying about getting people in after you've already gone through all of this. So we've tried not to have that be the thing that you do as the last piece. But that number has increased you know the amount of sales we need to do is now higher and so the stakes have been raised but. We're very lucky that the community itself has rallied. And so depending on what day you ask that question to me, I have a varying level of optimism of, you know, how this is going to go. You know, and again, I think that in some ways this feels so unique because we've come at this in a quirky and atypical kind of way. But at the same time, I think those challenges are fairly common to all breweries that you never have as much money as you wish you did and you never make as much money as you wish you did. And I think that's just business in general, you know, unless you like are Nike and you're just printing money.
[00:44:14] Hot Plate: What I see is the next challenge and I think what Mike and I see as the challenges are different because. I'm the owner and the brewer and all of that, is that for me, it's really being able to balance the cost of quality ingredients and the cost of the end product of the beer. Because we went to Hudson Valley Malt a couple of weeks ago and they kind of took us through how they do their malt sensory. And there was a large brand of, I think it was Munich style malt. that I mean it was worlds different than what the local and like I've always been a fan of local like farmers markets all that try to be as local as possible but just being able to have that balance of like when the grain is costing twice as much per pound but it is so quality you know that balance and then because we are in an area that still is coming back to life we are and are not competing with someone who's going to spend, you know, 20 bucks on a 30 rack of Bud Light. So how do we kind of balance that? So that's where I see the biggest challenge of quality price. And then obviously scarcity, because if, you know, I'm bringing in grain from overseas and it's cheaper, but there's a world event that causes that delay, well, I can go, you know, an hour over to Valley Mall that we're actually doing today. to pick up malt. And again, it's a little more expensive, but the quality is just outstanding.
[00:45:46] Real and Mike: That's a great real-life example. So literally, you know, we're getting ready to start brewing our first batches. And I'm not going to name the manufacturer because it was an honest mistake, but we got an order fulfilled and it came in and we looked at it and we're like, oh, these aren't the right ones because we needed milled grains. Because like Sarah mentioned, we ended up not getting a mill and they sent us unmilled grain. We're like, we don't have the time to fulfill this again. So we're going to go drive a couple of hours, you know, to a local place to get a couple of bags of two rows so that we can get this brew on schedule still. And, you know, and like Sarah said, it's like, there's a real benefit to working locally from a fresh perspective, but then there's a real benefit of as everyone's experienced these supply chain issues, you know, knowing that you can cultivate these relationships with people that are essentially your neighbors is so much greater. But how do you balance that with, you know, your margins getting really eaten into potentially? And again, I don't that's not uncommon. That's not something that's unique to Hot Plate. But I think it's something that we're just having to now see you know, we have these very high minded ideals and values about conservation and community and stuff like that. But you're always juggling, you know, how much is the investment really worth versus where can you find some savings?
[00:46:57] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And I guess it gets to a pricing question of figuring out, you know, what the market will allow within your, your taproom.
[00:47:07] Real and Mike: Right. And I think there is an upper limit. So don't get me wrong. But you know, one of the things that I got to experience in a previous life, When I worked as a copywriter for Brooks Brothers, obviously, you know, their shirts are a little bit more money than if you go to a department store and just buy a shirt there. I really learned the value of storytelling because they would talk about where they source their cotton and the American factories that were making their products. And so for certain consumers, unfortunately, this is all conspicuous consumption. It's like, OK, well, I'm paying for a luxury item and I like that there's this story behind it. And I like that it has all these premium ingredients and I'll pay a premium price. But I think two things are true is one, that becomes an increasingly small customer base. And then too, like you said, there's, there is an upper limit. So someone's not going to pay $20 for a pint of beer or something like that. You know, like you can only charge so much. So as your costs go up, we live in a world where people are now becoming comfortable with like an $8, $9 pour, depending on the style. I don't think it can go much higher than that before people say like, this is ridiculous, you know, for a pint of beer.
[00:48:11] Jessica Infante: Sarah, you mentioned the competition for the consumer in that area, and you all are new to that area. You're getting to know the community. So how do you balance brewing what you like to brew with what your drinker base there is going to want to drink?
[00:48:30] Hot Plate: So we started off just because it's part of my nature to ask questions and dig and also part of my day job, just looking at the consumer base here and how is that segmented and then kind of matching that to the kind of life because looking at what we wanted to do, we wanted to hype, we wanted to be outside, understanding who we are, but not using us as a focus group of one. Working in children's media, I don't know how many times a parent has been like, well, my kid does this. So then all kids must do that. It's like, no, that's your, your 1 kid. So, understanding what we wanted. Balancing that with the type of place we'd want to be in, but also looking at. tapless. And so we're going to have 12 taps and we're dividing it into thirds. So the first third is going to be classic European styles. That's also going to include like our cream ale, easy drinkers. So to kind of meet the people who want beer flavored beer. And especially in the summer, you might want, you know, a lighter lager, something like that. And then the middle is going to be kind of whatever's popular. So right now here in New England, IPAs are still popular. So they are more resource and cost intensive, but We need to have them on the menu and bring people in. I'm not a fan of New England IPAs. I'm a little burnt out of them. There are some good ones that are still out there, but you know what? It's, again, it's not a focus group of one. It's what is the market saying? And then the third end of the tap list is going to be where I like to play around. So that's going to be kind of where the beers may cost a little bit more because we are using additional ingredients like my chamomile blonde ale or jalapeno pale ale. So understanding that we feel like having those 12 taps and having them be all different styles for the most part, someone can find something. And if they don't, we at least hope that we have made a community space where someone can still come Amanda Huang out with their friends, have cider, have wine, have a non-alcoholic beverage. But, you know, if they don't find something on our tap list, we hope that they can at least find a home with us.
[00:50:33] Real and Mike: The two other things that we've been trying to do over the last year to get more insights. So we did a lot of pop up events where we were just giving samples away at different places and we were really fortunate. And this again is a testament to the Pittsfield community. Places that had liquor licenses would have us come on site and just give samples away for free of our beer. And so we got a chance to talk to different people. And so Sarah likes making a lot of sort of malt forward beers or beers with interesting ingredients. We also both happen to really love Belgian beers specifically Saison's. And so there aren't a lot of breweries around here making Saison's at all. So it's been kind of helpful to just say like OK this is a novel beer. that everyone's pretty into and gets pretty good feedback and what's been nice is like a lot of times you know there was one time where we made an amber ale and someone was like oh thank god i haven't seen this on a menu and so long or basically anything that we do that isn't in ipa we do find a cluster of people saying like oh thank god you guys and have something else. And so we've had to the other thing we've had to like really dial in is like how much do you want to counter program and how much do you want to also you know placate people who come in with the idea. I think there have been a lot of consumers over the last 10 years that they just equate in their mind. They're more casual consumers but they equate IPA equals good beer. You know they want to basically not drink a Bud Light. And they've heard that are good you know I have personal friends that that's basically as far as their knowledge goes and so part of our job is not only to make beers that reaches much of an audience but again to do some level of education and storytelling. I do hope for the locals that come to our place more than once that we can move them up and down our tap list and say like, hey, why don't you try this? Why don't you try that? And kind of expand their palates. You know, one of the things that we were fortunate enough to do was travel to different countries and really get to know the beer scene there. And we want to try to bring that a little bit to our operation. We're also old enough that When we were first getting into beer, you know, toward the end of college, imported beers were still like good beer, you know, considered good beer at that time. So I think we got exposed very early on in life to like English style beers, Belgian style beers in a way that I think younger people maybe weren't exposed to that because there has been such a dominance of American craft beer. So it's going to be a little trial and error we're making investments in software like ecos and we got a p.o.s. system called arrived and we wanted to get some of the best in breed software that can give us as much data as possible because that's again sarah's day job is taking those numbers finding those insights and so. The way I look at it is our first 12 beers are going to be basically tests and experiments. And then based on getting real life sales data and demographic data, that's where Sarah will be able to shine and start to understand, okay, these are the people who are gravitating this way versus that way, because we all know that we're unreliable narrators ourselves. And so we actually need to see what products move and at what volume and frequency. But what's been nice is when we talk to other friends in the industry, not in the Berkshires, there is this lower ABVs are starting to become more popular, non-IPAs are starting to become more popular. One thing that Sarah saw through work that's been really fascinating is that Gen Z is drinking a lot of imported beer. We're not exactly sure why that's the case. They don't drink as much beer overall as previous generations, but they're drinking imported beer. There are a lot of data points that we're still trying to put together into a narrative that makes sense for us from an operational standpoint. But I think it's letting the data do the talking and not, like you said, being like, well, I like this, so I'm going to make this, you know, because you're going to put yourself out of business very quickly if that's how you run.
[00:54:19] Jessica Infante: How much of this is going to be both of you? I know you're doing all the brewing, Sarah, but are you going to be hiring staff? You know, what do you expect this to look like on day one?
[00:54:31] Hot Plate: We're kind of, as of right now, dividing it like front of house, back of house, so doing the brewing, ordering, all that. We're both looking at people to hire, both having conversations. Mike's doing the creative. He's kind of been more boots on the ground with the city and meeting people just because he's had, since he's left his job, he's had that bandwidth. And for me, I will be like industry facing with the guilds and pink boots and all of that. And then Mike will kind of be the business side of things. Our hope is that we can find people that are flexible and want to learn so that, you know, you may tend bar two days a week and then one day a week, you know, you're. washing kegs and learning that process. And I'm teaching that because there were, until I started really looking into this industry, I didn't know all the things that were jobs in this industry. So if there is something that I can teach someone, I'd love that. And if they just want to serve beer, that's also cool.
[00:55:33] Real and Mike: I think it's almost like when we talk about beer styles themselves or even the way that we're sourcing ingredients I feel like staffing is the same way like we have these values about hey let's try to be an inclusive place that breaks down barriers and brings people not in the industry into this space to try to generate. You know, I think more diversity and get the ideas from people that have not been burnt out or jaded by beer, and it can be kind of new and exciting for them. But then you also want to lean on getting people who have some experience. So one of the people we're talking to used to work for a bigger brewery back in Western Massachusetts. And then Sarah's talking to someone who might come on as a seller manager who worked, still works, you know, in the industry, not from around here. And she would potentially join and move out here to help us out so we're trying to find a mix of people who both are veterans of the industry and can bring some of that institutional knowledge, but then also make this a space where we can. I hope, you know, capture the excitement of someone that this is brand new to because, you know, we've been consumers for almost 20 years. We've been moving into this over the last several, but I have very fixed ideas that are based on my own personal experience. And I would love to see what this all looks like to someone who doesn't know anything about craft beer, because if we are going to try to break down barriers, how do we reach the people who have already decided this isn't for them? And how can we maybe change their mind? I think staffing is a part of that, because especially if you're front of house, getting your friends to come and stuff like that.
[00:56:59] Jessica Infante: Absolutely. So last question for you. You're just getting started. What is your dream? You know, if it's the big dream for the brewery, what do you see it becoming? Do you want to stay small and taproom focused? You've got the pub brewer license. Do you eventually want to grow into distribution? What's the dream, Sarah?
[00:57:20] Hot Plate: For me, on the brewing side, it would be great to be able to build something from the ground up have, like, for me, the dream scenario of, like, a ton of land where, you know, lawn games and, you know. Put the kids in a little like area they can run around, possibly start growing some hops. I know it's a long thing, but just be able to have a bigger facility. I don't necessarily want to be a huge production facility. I would love to be able to distribute at some point. So for me, it's not like building an enormous place. It is building a different place and still keeping kind of what we're opening now as our taproom and as our kind of experimental batch place. Mike and I talk about what our dream is and he has the kind of bigger umbrella of what Hotplate.
[00:58:11] Real and Mike: Well, that's the healthy tension that we have because I'm always looking like 10 years down the road and Sarah's like, let's get open. You know, one of the things that I heard someone say recently was, you know, one of the things you need to do is think about what your exit looks like, you know, because that helps define what success looks like. That seems a little negative in the way that that's framed, but I get the sort of thought behind it. For me, and this is, again, just totally candid, when I see data like Gen Z drinking less, and I see that, you know, there's been so much chatter about the craft beer bubble bursting, Sometimes I think about diversifying so that someday Hot Plate doesn't just mean brewing beer, you know, and part of why we even picked the name Hot Plate brewing company versus like Hot Plate beer or something like that. And so we started brewing coffee. If we started having like, you know, cottages and ends and getting deeper into hospitality because we are in a tourism area. I think if we can build a brand that people are connected to, we could add additional legs to the operation. You do see some places like, whether you like them or not, I always find them quirky and interesting, like Dogfish Head got into spirits. They have a motel. They've gotten into different things. Treehouse recently launched both coffee and spirits as well. I think it is like if you can build enough of a brand where people will buy other products and services from you, you don't have to live and die by some of these challenges we're talking about, because not to sound overly pessimistic or bleak, but these are all agricultural products. You can only grow hops in certain parts of the world. You can only grow grain. I mean, look at what happened when Ukraine got invaded and suddenly grain prices increased because their production was cut off. So that plus, are we sitting on a craft beer bubble, you know, all those things make me think, okay, well, how can we have a healthy business that maybe we can bring in revenue from other streams and not live or die by beer alone. So, you know, and that, that's where I sit in a different part of the organization than Sarah does, you know? And so I think together, we're just trying to figure out how that all works together.
[01:00:14] Jessica Infante: Oh, it's a two person organization. So you got a lot to talk about.
[01:00:17] Real and Mike: Yeah.
[01:00:19] Jessica Infante: Congratulations. We wish you nothing but the best of luck on getting open. It's a pretty exciting time, I imagine. So thank you, Sarah and Mike.
[01:00:29] Hot Plate: Thank you.
[01:00:30] Real and Mike: Thank you. Appreciate it.
[01:00:32] Jessica Infante: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Sarah and Mike from Hotplate for joining us. Thanks to Zoe and Jess for holding it down and doing all the news. Thanks to all of you for listening and thanks to our audio team for pulling this together. We'll be back next week.
