Brewbound Podcast: Unpacking the Deal for Bell’s and a Trip to Castle Island

[00:00:00] Zoe Licata: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before The Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with The Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head The Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch The Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Bells, Cells, and a Trip to Castle Island, next on The Brewbound Podcast. Hello and welcome to The Brewbound Podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I am the editor The Brewbound and I am joined by Zoe Licata and Jessica Infante, who is back from another field trip.

[00:00:56] Jessica Infante: I am back from another field trip. Our dear friends at the Beer Marketers Insights, our dear friends and kind of competitors, I guess. It's kind of a weird way to open that. But the Beer Marketers Insights crew were kind enough to allow me to attend their annual conference in Manhattan. So I was in a room with some super duper important beer people all day yesterday. Learned a lot. It was a lot of fun.

[00:01:23] Zoe Licata: What's the big takeaway?

[00:01:25] Jessica Infante: Well, my biggest takeaway is that the people who lead publicly traded companies aren't really allowed to say much publicly, but.

[00:01:31] Zoe Licata: That is shocking.

[00:01:33] Jessica Infante: I know, brand new information.

[00:01:36] Zoe Licata: We are in a quiet period.

[00:01:38] Jessica Infante: Yeah, it was my first time seeing the new CEO of Anheuser-Busch InBev's U.S. operations, Brendan Whitworth. He was on stage with Ben Steinem and talked a lot about a lot of different things. Brendan mentioned a lot about how their B2B e-commerce platform Bees, which had previously just been a focus globally, is now taking on, you know, getting some traction in the States. So I think that probably is like very helpful to a lot of their clients. That was a big one. Paul Hederich from Constellation Brands talked a lot about how, yeah, they've kind of had a bit of a rough year with Corona Hard Seltzer, but in retrospect, perhaps if they made less Corona Hard Seltzer and more of their on-fire beer brands, they wouldn't have out-of-stock issues. They've learned a lot of things from their sale of Ballast Point.

[00:02:28] Zoe Licata: never investing craft beer.

[00:02:30] Jessica Infante: Yeah, basically was what they learned. He was really honest about it. He's like, look, like we just we just couldn't figure it out.

[00:02:36] Zoe Licata: Seems like other folks there are figuring it out. And that might be lying.

[00:02:41] Jessica Infante: And yeah, exactly. The day wrapped up with David Simon interviewing Steve Fetchheimer. Steve talked a little bit about their portfolio and what they have going on. Long-term outlet says this, the opportunity for us to continue to grow our business we think is quite high, is what Steve said in the understatement of the century. We went from that into Happy Hour where I was lucky enough to be one of the few people to find New Belgium Dominga, their mimosa style sour, really tasty. Nice. I was glad I found it. Yeah, I like the product a lot.

[00:03:12] Zoe Licata: I need to try that still, I think.

[00:03:14] Jessica Infante: Yeah, you know, it's funny, like while Steve was talking, I was like on their beer finder trying to see where I could find it by my house. And then I just walked out the door into the happy hour space and found one, it's great.

[00:03:24] Zoe Licata: Perfect, yeah.

[00:03:25] Jessica Infante: Yeah, they see that as being their way to get beer into other occasions where beer is not really considered right now, it's like brunch. And I totally see how that would work.

[00:03:34] Zoe Licata: That's an occasion right for the taking, I think.

[00:03:38] Jessica Infante: For sure, beer definitely could get some nice volume out of occasions like that.

[00:03:43] Zoe Licata: Yeah, and you've got independent players, too, or smaller brands that just launched like Sundays that are trying to do it as well. So that's an RTD cocktail brand that's on the rise. But we're also going to hear a lot more from Steve and Bell's Brewery EVP Carrie Yonker The Brewbound Live. We have added them to the program. So I'm super excited to do that. That was not in the cards. a week ago and then the deal between Lion and Bells goes down and it just didn't feel right to not address that on our stage. So we're going to go deeper with Carrie and Steve and talk about What's next really? What does this partnership unlock for Bells? How do all the pieces fit together? We'll try and get some answers. That is going to take place The Brewbound Live, November 30th and December 1st in Santa Monica. That talk will be on the 30th. That will close us out on day one. And lots more to talk about there. As far The Brewbound Live goes, you're going to be hosting a panel on culture with Ryan Geist, Bryant Goulding, and Betsy Lay from Lady Justice.

[00:04:58] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I'm really excited about that one. And I think our two guests really help, you know, kind of they're like almost bookending this conversation because, you know, Bryant built Ryan Geist over the course of a decade and was able to really, you know, create a culture in an organization. that I mean they have an ESOP I think they're they're generally pretty you know employee minded and now Brian is stepping away and you know they've hired a CEO to run day to day and and I think it'll be great to get his perspective on what it's like to be the founder and the originator and then how do you know when when your people are in good shape and it's okay for you to take a step back. But Betsy has become a really outspoken force for change in the beer industry, one of the few woman-owned breweries in the country. And what is Betsy doing right now to foster an organization at a growing brewery that really is going to help center and uplift workers? So I think we'll get somebody kind of at the tail end of the building and somebody who's just starting out. It'll be really interesting to hear their thoughts.

[00:06:01] Zoe Licata: Yeah, we're really looking forward The Brewbound Live and this is going to be a great opportunity to network. If you are an up and coming brand within the beer space and beyond beer space, I really suggest you take a look at possibly joining us in Santa Monica because the networking opportunities are going to be a great opportunity to connect with folks who can help you advance your business. There are a lot of people who are looking at emerging brands who are going to be there. I'm not going to name drop, but it's going to be worth your while, I think. So we're going to have lots of networking opportunities. We're going to be at Juneshine on November 29th. That's an exclusive party for Brewbound Live attendees. We're going to be at Firestone Walker on the 30th, another exclusive party. And then once we wrap things up, on day two. We're going to close it down with a party sponsored by the Beer Institute. I don't know if we'll be by the pool, but I kind of hope we're drinking beers by the pool once we get done. I think we'll probably force that issue, but very much looking forward to this, and it's going to be your The Brewbound Live, Zoe.

[00:07:06] Lion Little: I'm super excited. Like every day that we get closer, I get more excited for it. We're going to be talking about really cool stuff, getting to see so many people in person that I've just been talking to virtually for the past seven or eight months that I've been The Brewbound. And we have our panels in general are just really exciting panels. So I'm looking forward to it.

[00:07:29] Zoe Licata: I'm stoked to do this. I have my booster shot now. I'm ready to go. Let's do this thing. So let's bring on our featured guests, the center square of The Brewbound Podcast, Don Bixel Jr., the founder of consulting and analytics firm Three Tier Beverages. You can't see Don flexing, but he's always flexing. How are you doing, Don?

[00:07:55] World Beverages: I am recovering slowly from a quick two-day journey to beautiful New York City, which is always amazing to go to during the holidays, and got to see some of the very best in the beer industry speak on the Beer Insights panel. So just recovering, didn't get enough sleep. My plane was delayed coming from Newark, which my terminal I hear is much better than another person who's on this podcast terminal. The United Terminal was very nice, but I actually experienced the air rage last night. Oh, that's right. We had a gentleman taken off our plane. I want to know more about this. No, I'm going to talk all about that. It was the craziest stuff I've ever seen.

[00:08:42] Zoe Licata: Well, that gentleman was not our next guest. Adam Romanow, the founder of Castle Island Brewing in Norwood, Massachusetts. I don't think you've ever been removed from a plane, have you? Not that I recall. No, that would be a first. Well, happy to have you.

[00:08:59] The Brewbound: Thank you. Great to be here.

[00:09:01] Zoe Licata: So we brought you both on because we want to talk and unpack Lion's big deal last week for Bell's Brewery. Don is now putting on a Castle Island and hoodie, which is kind of fabulous. What about five minutes too late? Let's be honest. Why isn't this a video podcast?

[00:09:22] World Beverages: Yeah, it should have been. I went from, uh, are we allowed to say this or are they just brewing in good standing? It's probably not. We can't talk about the brewery. So we're not gonna talk about the brewery whose t-shirt I was wearing because they're on the naughty list right now.

[00:09:34] Zoe Licata: You'll have to cover it up.

[00:09:36] World Beverages: But I covered it up and now I'm a, I'm a Castle Island Brewing Company. There we go.

[00:09:41] Jessica Infante: You guys should know he wore this, he wore this in Manhattan on Sunday as well.

[00:09:46] Zoe Licata: Wow, always representing. So let's unpack this deal a little bit because this is created. Probably, I think it's the fifth largest brewery platform in the U.S. right now. Lion has taken on Bells, well, pending regulatory approval, which I expect to go through. So they'll have Bells, they'll have New Belgium, they'll have a portfolio that's all Voodoo Ranger, Fat Tire, Oberon, Two-Hearted. This is a mega craft brewery, mega brewery, I should say. What do you guys think that this sort of means for craft as a whole or the industry as a whole at this point? And I'll start with you, Don.

[00:10:33] World Beverages: I just like the fact that we're referring to these as platforms now. This is great. Craft brew platforms. I didn't pull up the size, but you're probably right about top five now. I did not see this one coming. And I have to tell you, after having dinner in Las Vegas with some other people on this panel, I am very impressed by one of the gentlemen who was a part of this deal, his ability to not give anything away. So it was kind of a shock to see this happen. But I think you've got to put it all into perspective. And I think that yesterday in New York, it was really interesting to see the CEO of New Belgium actually talking about this deal and actually putting it in perspective in the larger scope of beer. I mean, combined overall, this now makes them 1% of all beer. I mean, that's where they are and kind of the big picture of it. New Belgium came into this at a 0.75 share and Bell's at 0.25. But on the craft side of it, I mean, it takes one player that was 6.2% of the business and one that was 2.1, they're now 8.3% of craft. So in craft, it definitely is going to give them an awful lot of influence and very quickly.

[00:11:45] Zoe Licata: What's it mean for folks like you, Adam, at the tail, if anything?

[00:11:49] The Brewbound: It's an interesting question. I mean, we opened before either New Belgium or Bells was in Massachusetts, our home market. And I think, at least at the consumer level, there was a lot of skepticism about what some of these brands could do, just given they didn't feel really regionally relevant at the time. But their performance since then has done anything but that. They've gobbled up quite a bit of share. As we look at what is coming now with them working together, it feels like that's not going anywhere. They're probably grabbing and holding on to more floor space than they already have, which is already a lot. And in a market that seems to be shifting towards multi-pack, I think that their powers now are going to be a lot more dominant in a market where some of the smaller players just have a harder time keeping up with those trends and competing for that space.

[00:12:37] World Beverages: It's really interesting when you talk about like regional or where they're coming from. It's like New Belgium is always one that's felt a little weird because I can't figure out what their region really is or what it was. I mean, are they are they mountain region? I mean, I can't think of them as a California brewery. I mean, Bell's is very much Midwest. When you think about it, I think about this deal right away. And the first thing I think is how could they possibly be done? I mean, this is there's there's still opportunities. I mean, this is two of the most well-known and better breweries in the United States. I mean, it's very interesting. They definitely have got from Colorado to Ohio pretty much on lockdown at this point in time.

[00:13:17] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I mean, Adam, it's really interesting that you mentioned that you guys opened Castle Island before either of them were in Massachusetts. And, you know, I did all of my formative beer drinking in, you know, New Jersey, Mass, and a little bit of New York, but I wouldn't call a bunch of frat parties that really craft-centric. Neither of those breweries were in either of those places, so they're not. I don't want to say they're not top of mind for me, because obviously they are now, but you know you didn't grow up drinking them and you're not really that familiar with them. So what kind of a difference do you think their entrance into mass made in the craft scene here?

[00:13:51] The Brewbound: I mean, I think in a lot of ways, you had a lot of people looking at New Belgium and really just thinking fat tire at the point. And fat tire for a lot of consumers kind of fell into the same bucket as like a Boston lager, where it was the beer that their dad drank. But what they've done with Voodoo Drinker is amazing. It is just so prevalent in the marketplace that you see it. You know, draft handles, I don't know how many other Colorado-based breweries have draft handles across the market anymore, but you see New Belgium handles out there, you see Bell's handles out there. And it's the same in the entrepreneurs. I mean, they've got those premium cooler spots. And I think that they have found an unbelievable ability to innovate as a brand. I'm speaking more to the Belgian at the moment, but an unbelievable ability to innovate away from a legacy product or a legacy brand that was kind of exactly what they were known for into something that now allows them to tap into a younger audience that really might not have had the appetite for the new Belgian portfolio as a whole, without something like Blue Ridge. So I think it's really impressive as a small local guy, you know, we can always play the local card and they kind of can't in this market. But outside of that, they've got just about every other role done at this stage. So it's something that we are going to be watching and others should be watching as well.

[00:15:04] Lion Little: This deal, when it happened, I mean, we were kind of like, we were doing Brewbound Live stuff, and it was the first time we'd had, like, we're all in the office, and there was this sudden, like, I don't know, secret panic for a second. Like, we have this big story coming. So it's kind of cool to see, from my perspective, for the first time since I've joined Brewbound, one of these big acquisitions happen. And especially with a brand that I think, like, with New Belgium, for my generation, I don't think most people would know offhand what New Belgium was, but they know their beers. That makes sense. So I'd be interested to see how they take Bell's in a similar direction of not being necessarily the Bell's brand, but brands that are all part of this bigger family, if that makes sense.

[00:15:52] Zoe Licata: For sure, and I think there's a point too, Adam, you're saying there that the power that they have in the off premise, they own eight of the top 30 craft brands. That's insane. That's the largest share of that than anybody on that list, even Boston Beer. Am I wrong there, Jess?

[00:16:11] Jessica Infante: No, Boston Beer would never come close to that on an IRI thing at one point in time, you know, because what's going to be in market? Blogger Seasonal, Rebel 76, any of those things like they're not really going to pop in that list.

[00:16:24] Zoe Licata: So, Don, what would you say the next closest is? Sierra?

[00:16:29] World Beverages: Yeah, I mean, if I were to dive into it, yeah, well, it is Sierra Nevada. I mean, it's Sierra Nevada, then it's Sam Adams, and it's Lagunitas. I mean, Line and Kugels, I mean, Blue Moon's still the number one up there. But after that, I mean, it's definitely Sierra, Sam Adams, Lagunitas, Line and Kugels, Founders. And the list doesn't get too far. I mean, it's interesting when you actually dive into this now. This is just year to date. You're Belgium, Sierra, Sam Adams, Lagunitas, Line and Kugels, Founders, Shiner, Firestone, Bells. Bells is right there. I mean, they, as far as brands that are going to be able to dominate a set, especially when it comes to, you know, it's scan data availability. I mean, these two are going to be, they're going to be a beast. I mean, a new Belgium's got an amazing, I mean, their, their team has always been incredible, especially in the, in the off premise and the chain channel, both on and off premise. I mean, they're going to take this brand to kind of that next level. Bells has got a decent team, you know, and, you know, I shouldn't go on record saying this, but I don't think there is built out as New Belgium's is. So I think that that's going to be an immediate impact that they're going to be able to help them out with and get them even deeper into the chain channel. And I think the other thing is going to be if there are the synergies within the distributor side of the thing. Bells tends to be with some distributors that are probably more craft focused, where New Belgium has made some aggressive moves in the past few years to be with distributors that are definitely more aligned in call point frequency with the change channel.

[00:17:59] Jessica Infante: Interesting thought that I just, well, I mean, I think it's an interesting thought. I'm looking at the list of the top 50 domestic craft brewing companies, and we know Bells is in 43 states. I assume they'll get to all 50. You know, you don't take part in a deal like this to leave seven states on the table. I don't see anybody else on this list that I could see that's not national becoming national. I think this might be the last one.

[00:18:25] World Beverages: I think we've got to be careful every time we say that something like this happens.

[00:18:29] Jessica Infante: But that's what keeps me employed, Don, so let's, you know.

[00:18:32] World Beverages: Well, I think it's becoming harder and harder. I mean, I think that when you look at kind of some of the clients that we deal with that never would have thought about being national, I mean, I think about Coop Aleworks right away with what they're doing with Sonic Seltzer. I mean, now are they going to be national with it? I'm not sure how quickly they can get there, but they suddenly have a brand that they could potentially take national. So I think that there's always probably brands within a portfolio that have the potential to do so. So I mean, look at what slow is doing before they push that brand out over to Firestone Walker as well. And now that they've got that Kelly squeeze that could become a national brand. So. Never say never.

[00:19:12] Jessica Infante: Don Bixel and Justin Bieber.

[00:19:14] The Brewbound: I think it'll be interesting to watch how Bells fills in some of those gaps, because let's face it, too hard. It's the beer that they're known for. And that is one of those legacy brands. I'm actually honestly surprised with how well it's worked in South Boston market, considering historically legacy brands like that haven't really performed. You contrast that with something like Buddha Rancher, where it seems to work just about every market. And Fat Tire may not work as well. So I think it'll be interesting to watch how Bells does fill in those remaining seven states.

[00:19:42] World Beverages: What's the alcohol cut? You know what, I was just thinking that too. Let's see, I know that Two Hearted's in at 7% alcohol. What's Voodoo Ranger playing?

[00:19:49] Jessica Infante: Well, their best selling of the Voodoo family is Imperial, which is obviously going to be a little bit more.

[00:19:54] World Beverages: It'll be interesting to see if those kind of, you know, how much fighting to get both handles on and all accounts they're going to have to go through. The other thing that's going to be interesting to see is going to be Steve Oberon goes from just being a summer beer to going potentially year round as well. I mean, I know it's year round, I believe in the Florida market, but I think there would definitely be the potential for a brand like Oberon to be a year round brand.

[00:20:16] Zoe Licata: I'd be shocked if they didn't do that. It seems like that gives them two horses in an area that New Belgium really hasn't played is that wheat beer space, or at least at a major level.

[00:20:29] Jessica Infante: Isn't the seasonality what makes Oberon special though? Do you think making it year round would take a little bit of the wind out of its sails?

[00:20:36] World Beverages: I think it would take away that kind of marketing push that they get every time that they do their big launches every year and the big countdowns. But I think a little bit of that is waned as well. I don't think that the consumers are as excited in going to those events as much as they used to. People aren't showing up for the tap takeovers as much anymore. I know that Black Friday is still a big thing here in Chicagoland for Goose Island and across the country, but I think a little of that has kind of lost its luster.

[00:21:04] The Brewbound: My guess is that means more in Michigan and the Midwest in general, probably means less the further you get from home.

[00:21:10] Jessica Infante: Yeah, that's a great point.

[00:21:12] World Beverages: And back to what Zoe was saying too. I mean, some of these brands, you know, especially with Zoe's generation, probably aren't even familiar with them. So they don't even know that they're not year round.

[00:21:20] Jessica Infante: Zoe, how into seasonal beers are your drinking compatriots? Do you guys care about seasonals? Are you even aware of them? Like when they come in and come out of the market?

[00:21:31] Lion Little: Yes and no. I'd say more often than not, it's a negative reaction of like, oh, why isn't this around like year round? Just because I think that has a little bit to do with our like lack of commitment to things. So if there is something we are really into, if it's not around all the time, then we're going to immediately like walk away from it. We like to have things right away. We like to have the things that we want when we want them. So I mean, I know we also aren't as like committed to, oh, this is the type of beer that you have at this time of year. So I know we've talked about I'm not into IPAs, but I love a good wheat ale. That's something that I'm going to drink all year round. And I think a lot of my generation is similar in that we're not hooked on this beer is for this time of year type thing.

[00:22:20] World Beverages: Adam, you're hearing this, right? Oktoberfest, year round, pumpkin beers, year round. Castle Island's going to be the first to do it.

[00:22:27] The Brewbound: Don't say it too loud. My brewer's about 15 feet away from me. No, I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that, Zoe. I mean, we've got a taproom in the suburbs where the audience typically skews, call it 35 to 55. And then we've got a taproom in the city where the audience is like late 20s to late 30s. We hear the word seasonal a lot in the suburbs. People ask me if we have a seasonal. We don't do seasonals. Whereas in the city, you almost never hear the word. It's usually what's new or what's hazy, which are the two big trends right now. But people are not asking us for seasonals in the city. There's no question.

[00:23:00] Zoe Licata: Yeah. So one of the narratives that usually comes out when these deals go down is that it's a sad day for Kraft. And I saw a couple of messages like this, but for the most part, in this case, it feels like it was a little more muted. I didn't catch the whiff of the backlash of transactions passed like a wicked weed or something like that. Do you think that we're at a point where maybe that narrative has sort of died out in craft beer?

[00:23:37] The Brewbound: Not entirely, Justin. I mean, I think it's it's a little bit different when you're talking about a national brand where some of those diehards who might be the first ones to drop that line. may have given up already a long time ago because they went national and sold out in that sense. But I think beyond that, I don't know how many consumers are just that connected. People are drinking beers that are made by, you know, large, what are we calling them again? Platform breweries now? And they don't even know it. So I don't even know how much consumers are tuned into that kind of thing outside of, you know, the long tail consumers who, yeah, they're always going to say it, but they're probably not going to stop drinking it.

[00:24:16] World Beverages: Yeah, and they don't care. I mean, we spend so much time worrying about this and not as much as we're worried about influencers and that this generation can see through any kind of BS. It just seems like when it comes to this, about who really owns it, it really seems like nobody really cares. There's a very small, very vocal minority that cares a lot, way too much. And I think that they probably need to get out of their parents' basement. But at the end of the day, it's like, you know, who's not happy for the folks that worked all those years at New Belgium and, you know, got their, you know, their stock options paid out into the retirement plans and created just unbelievable opportunities for all those people. And who in the world isn't happy for Larry Bell and his family? I mean, Larry has had some health issues over the years. is a great guy. I mean, I the other day, like when Goose Island years ago, and this is so many years ago, 20 years ago, first person, first person to call me, Larry Bell. Drove over, talked to Larry, wanted to try to help me out and see what was going on. And years later, when Heineken shut down my division, and I was out of a job, first person to call me was Larry Bell. And then when I left Revolution Brewing two years ago, first person, once again, Larry is a great guy. Larry deserves this. So if anybody is upset about Larry for selling, they need to spend their time thinking about other things. So I'm happy for him. I'm happy for them and the employees in New Belgium. Anybody I talked to in New Belgium has been thrilled since this change happened. Not that anything was wrong before, but they're happy they got more resources, more access to talent. I think sometimes when breweries hold on too long, they just they don't get access to talent too. You can only grow so far and your people can only grow so far as well.

[00:26:12] Zoe Licata: It's just one of those strange narratives that have stuck around the craft beer segment that hasn't really been in any other CPG. You don't hear about it when a snack brand sales or any of that, for whatever reason it is. And maybe it's the David and Goliath narrative that's sort of been fed out there, but it just permeates craft. I just don't see that with any other CPG area.

[00:26:40] World Beverages: I mean, people should be really mad at Ryan Reynolds for selling out that gin company. And George Clooney and Randy Gerber, I mean, how dare they sell that tequila? Nobody cares. I mean, it's like people are happy for them. They're like, well, George Clooney's got another billion dollars. People are happy. But if you're a craft brewery and you sell, you're the devil.

[00:26:57] The Brewbound: Part of the difference there, too, is a lot of these consumers are walking into tap rooms or walking into breweries and experiencing those brands in the flesh. No one was walking into Clooney's distillery. No one's walking into a pretzel stick factory and having that experience. All right, Don, we all know that Clooney invited you into his distillery and you waltzed in there five minutes. Like, yeah, we know.

[00:27:19] World Beverages: Cabo San Lucas, man. I was at those two houses next door. I could see them from my hotel. They had a big flag up that said, Don, bring the family over.

[00:27:29] Zoe Licata: So let's talk about walking into a brewery, maybe a new brewery in South Boston. Adam, tell us about your new space and how that's gone over in the weeks since you've opened. Have you maintained the crowds? What's the traffic like there now?

[00:27:47] The Brewbound: Yeah, so it's been just over seven weeks since we opened. I think we had high hopes for what we were going to see when we opened, but we didn't really know until we finally did open the doors. And we've seen an amazing amount of people come through right off the bat. Granted, we're in the city, so it's easier access, but the neighborhood has shown up in a big way. We are serving more than 50,000 guests a month right now based on the last few weeks. almost two months of service, which is amazing. These are huge, huge numbers compared to what we see out in the suburbs. We've got a staff that's already off the bat, like just running a great hospitality program. We've got an in-house kitchen partner making some of the best pizza in the city right now, and that's helping bring people in. But I think in a lot of ways, our opening was delayed by construction, by COVID, by all these things. It gave people an opening, a restaurant opening, a tavern opening, that they hadn't seen in two years. And it gave a lot of them a reason to leave the house, get excited about something again. So that's been a real boost. It's been wind in the sails, for sure.

[00:28:49] Zoe Licata: As far as those traffic patterns go, are you seeing an earlier crowd come in? Is there, I know there's not happy hour in Massachusetts, but are you seeing that sort of 4 p.m. crowd? Is there a late night crowd at this point? We've heard about those shifts in, you know, traffic. What are you getting?

[00:29:08] The Brewbound: Yeah, we seem to be more of a dinner and after dinner spot but not really a late night spot so we're only open till midnight to begin with on weekends. I'm sort of a concession in the neighborhood for now we'll revisit that in the future but because of that, we start to see crowds Peter out around 11 o'clock. The other thing to keep in mind with us right now, yeah, we're in the neighborhood of South Boston, but we're kind of on an island within the neighborhood. There are no other businesses immediately next to us. So we are sort of a destination for people, which means late, late nights probably not happening here. To be honest, it's actually been kind of nice for our staff. They're home and in bed by 1 a.m., which is a rarity in this industry. And we avoid a lot of the late night headaches that you get if you're open till 2 a.m. serving liquor, which we also don't do because we can't under Mass State law. But we're still getting healthy traffic coming through right up until 9, 10, 11 o'clock. It's been awesome to see.

[00:30:03] World Beverages: Adam, are you still seeing the lift to your suburban location too? Oh, definitely.

[00:30:08] The Brewbound: Yeah, that's probably the number one question I got after we opened the tap room in Southie was, you know, what are you guys seeing in Norwood? Is that cannibalizing your own business? And it's quite the opposite. We were seeing the numbers grow there and they sustained at that level. The two breweries are far enough apart where we really don't see much crossover traffic and therefore not much, you know, cannibalism. And on top of that, there was enough press around the South Boston opening that it got the name out there and Top of Mind again. And we had more people coming into Norwood because Southie was kind of too far for them, or they didn't like driving into the city. Norwood was easier, but they'd never heard of us before, so they came to check us out there.

[00:30:44] World Beverages: I love what you said about you know that connection to people actually going into the tap rooms and going into the restaurants and having that kind of connection with the staff, you know, so when they sell it's by that different feeling it is an interesting thing to think about especially, I think about that one gentleman that was sitting. next to me at your opening that kind of was the guy that came up there was like this nice young crowd and then there was some guy about my age that came up and said I'll take the barrel aged hazy that you tapped yesterday and I was like where's this guy coming from you know I didn't but that that was the guy and he was all excited to be there and he's probably the guy that would be very upset if you sold the Anheuser-Busch

[00:31:25] The Brewbound: He would be crushed if we sold to Anheuser-Busch, I think that's fair to say. It's interesting though, and Don, you're going to love this because we've talked about this ad nauseam. Yesterday morning, I started running some numbers to see what the lift has been like around the taproom in South Boston for our wholesale business. Because one of the things we heard when we opened the first taproom, we heard over this one too, is Hey, that's great for you, but we're not getting a piece of the action. You're going to start stealing business from the market. We've been open for 50 days as of yesterday in South Boston. Compared with the preceding 50 days, the brand was up 60%. Our number one seller keeper, our IPA, cans were up 104%. Fiverr, our hazy IPA, cans are up 146% the same period. So we're seeing growth in the market, and it's not just distribution. It's rate of sale increases, which is even better. So it creates a really nice selling story to bring back to the distributors to get them fired up about what this new location is going to do for the brand as a whole.

[00:32:23] Lion Little: Adam, I have a question about what you're seeing is the like demographic of people who are coming into the new location. Because I know Southie is for us. We see it as like that's the new trendy hotspot where like it's I compared it to someone the other day. It's like all the places that are our version of like LA restaurants and businesses. Are you seeing consumers coming in that aren't as familiar with craft? You're trying it for the first time. Are you seeing more traditional craft consumers like who is? Who are the people coming into the new spot?

[00:32:55] The Brewbound: Yeah, it's a great question, Zoe. And as a guy who spent a third of his life living in this neighborhood, it's funny to hear people compare it to LA, because to me, it's anything but that. But the answer to your question sort of depends on the time of day. Earlier in the day, we're seeing more of that, like, selfie lifer audience come in, where a lot of times they're actually coming for the pizza, and they're trying the beer, and their eyes are open to the fact that we make great beer. And all of a sudden, that's part of their household habit now. But definitely as you get later into the evening, call it 7.30, 8 o'clock, all the way through closed, that's where we see the younger demo. And it's usually people who are coming out, maybe they're having dinner, but it's more likely that they're having a couple of beers before they walk up the street to the Lincolns and Locos and Playwrights, where they're probably gonna wait in line for 90 minutes to get in, and then whistle back as many vodka sodas, or let's face it, high noons, as they can before the one o'clock closing bell. So we're kind of that pregame spot for the younger audience, but we really, and this is a good thing, we serve everyone. It's not just an older crowd or a younger crowd or an inexperienced crowd or a super crafty crowd. We're drawing in a pretty broad audience. And that's what, at least to me and to us, Castle Island's always been about. So we're psyched to see that actually coming through the town from itself.

[00:34:10] World Beverages: at eight o'clock though. age limit had timed out a the chair back for a youn That's right.

[00:34:21] The Brewbound: No one unde no one over 50.

[00:34:24] Zoe Licata: Right Don the pizzas by that point

[00:34:36] World Beverages: I believe that you may have gone home with at least two or three different varieties that I think it was three.

[00:34:43] Jessica Infante: Adam, we were just together last week at the Mass Brewers Guild Conference and you led a really interesting conversation about contract brewing. And then you and I emailed a little bit and then I wrote about it. But really interesting to me that you guys found this contract service that really like kind of juiced your business a little bit. So can you tell us for the podcast listeners, how, you know, how it came to be that that Castle Island is such a successful and dependable contract brewing partner?

[00:35:11] The Brewbound: Yeah, of course, and I'm glad to hear you found the talk interesting. It's always a different perspective when you're the one giving the talk, right? We did not open to be a contract brewery. We opened under the assumption that we were only ever going to brew Castle Island products. And then at some point over the course of the last six years, we completed a large cellar expansion that left us with some open capacity. And we contract brewed a little here and there on an opportunistic basis just to fill those tanks. And then when COVID hit and we lost almost 50% of our business to the on-premise shutdown, we really started ramping up contract brewing in a big way, helping some of our local breweries brewery peers who needed capacity or canning lines, or in most cases both, in order to access the off-premise channel, we became that production source for them. And I think in a lot of ways, the fact that we never opened to be a contract brewery served us well when we decided to be one, because we approach other people's beer like we approach our own. You've been to the brewery, you've probably heard me talk about it a million times, there's a sign above our loading dock that reads, if you're not proud of it, don't ship it.

[00:36:14] Jessica Infante: It's in our story.

[00:36:16] The Brewbound: It is. And that doesn't just apply to Castle Island brands. That applies to the beer that we're contract producing for others. Because really, you know, Our word, our quality is all we have to stand by. They're not our recipes. They're not our brands. We are not stewards of them out in the market necessarily. So we want to be good stewards of them when we can be, which is why we're making them here. And that honestly has been probably our number one marketing vehicle when it comes to growing a contract business. We produce quality product for people and that makes a big difference. When you've got people who haven't contract produced in the past, they don't know the ins and outs of it, but they know their beer cold. And I want to make sure that if they're giving somebody else the recipe and the keys to drive that car, that they're going to treat it like their own. And I'll add to that, it's done wonders for our business. We furloughed 30 of our 35 employees in March of 2020. We brought all of them back about a month later when we got PPP money. And we have not only not laid anyone off since then, but we have hired up more staff since then to support growth in our own brand, but also the contractor side of the business. So it's allowed us to retain and attract employees. We have doubled our bulk malt capacity. We've made other major infrastructure improvements, added seller capacity, all in the name of supporting, again, our own brand and contract business. But without the contract, we wouldn't have been able to do those things. So it was a necessary pivot at the time, forced by COVID. But in a lot of ways, it's been a really positive change that I'm kind of glad our hand was forced, honestly.

[00:37:53] Jessica Infante: Dude, that's awesome. I mean, like I know you said, you didn't get into it thinking you would do it, but I have to assume for some entrepreneurs out there that, you know, if you really love the brewing side of things, but you're not so interested in branding and marketing, like becoming a contract brewer is probably pretty sweet.

[00:38:08] World Beverages: Yeah, without a question. I was just gonna say, Adam, I was gonna give you kudos for helping out one of my company's brewing partners for kind of helping kind of show them the ropes on getting into contract. And, you know, that could end up being, you know, two thirds more than they're currently doing, you know, just by this one partner that they've brought on. But, you know, you were a big help in helping them do so. And I think that anybody that's got excess capacity that that has the ability to do so should look at it. Those tanks are far more profitable when they're full than when they're sitting there empty. And back to Adam's point, it allows you to invest in things that you might normally not invest in. I mean, this brewery that I'm talking about is now looking at investing in a 19.2 ounce canning line just to be able to do so and are looking at a 12 pack line as well.

[00:38:55] The Brewbound: One of the questions I got from some of our staff when we told them all that we're going to be wrapping up our contract offering was, you know, well, why are we brewing beer for competitors? They're just going to be on shelves taking market share. My answer was, they're going to do it whether we brew the beer for them or not. So we may as well get something for it because we're going to end up losing that space at the end of the day. And that seemed to kind of get people on board. And again, that's what's allowed us to make those investments. The one thing I will say about contract growing, Don, the client of yours who we spoke with really didn't know where to start when we started talking to them about contract growing. And the reality is contract brewing is not hard. It's complicated. And there are things you need to be considering, but it's not difficult per se. But the one thing that contract brewing did for us that I don't think we would have figured out this quickly without it is it really forced us to look inward and get a lot more organized, build out stronger SOPs, ramp up our internal communications, and just professionalize the organization in ways that Maybe we didn't need to in that moment if we didn't have the contract growing, but it has advanced where our business is at in huge and untellable ways. So I think that for anyone who's considering getting into contract growing as a contract producer, not as a contracted brand, don't overthink it. It's a pretty simple science, but yet you do have to be very mindful of how you apply it.

[00:40:20] World Beverages: Well, and I think that you just nailed it when talking about looking internally. I mean, this brewery has definitely done that. I mean, they're doing things completely differently from a production standpoint because they're no longer just thinking about themselves. But now they're thinking about how do we gain efficiencies off of some of these new things that we're able to pivot into for our core operation. I think it goes even all the way back to what we're talking about, about company selling. It's like having some outside eyes and ears and mouths into conversations in any business. is always important in some kind of capacity. And I think that contract brewing definitely opens that up.

[00:40:55] Lion Little: So, so Adam, what does Castle Island 2022 look like? What are you guys focusing on?

[00:41:01] The Brewbound: So we've only been open for seven weeks. Let me breathe. No, it's, it's a great question. I mean, I, one of the major focuses for me right now is how to kind of how to integrate, I guess, and make more seamless the two different taprooms, because one of them is legacy and carries all the old parts of the Castle Island brand, which is great, but now we've got this shiny new toy and we really need to get those synced up. They're different in terms of what the experience is going to be in the markets that they serve, but the level of service, the level of experience has to have the same kind of experience. So getting those synced up is a big focus. We've got some really exciting partnerships that we have lined up for next year. We've done a handful of brewery collabs in the past, and we always love them. We learn a lot. But I think we learn even more sometimes from the collaborations we do with people outside of the beer business, sometimes even outside of CPG. So we're really excited for a couple of those that are going to be coming up next year that I'd love to talk about now, but I can't. So hit me back in the spring. I'll tell you all about them. And then what else are we looking at? I mean, we don't honestly have any major innovation for next year. We launched a fiber or hazy IPA in September of last year in the middle of a pandemic, which for anyone listening is complete wrong time to launch a brand. So in a lot of ways, 2022 is our opportunity to sort of do the launch that we always wanted and really start to get that brand out in the market. I think that's a major focus for us as we look to the future, especially since that is now our number one selling beer in both taprooms, whether it's draft or package format. So that has to be a major priority for us as we look into the following year.

[00:42:42] Jessica Infante: Adam, when we talked about the Southie location, which I'm sorry, that is South Boston, if you're not familiar with the lingo of our fair state here, but the Southie location opened and you saw a lift at Wholesale, and then you also saw a lift in traffic at Norwood. Do you brew different beers at the two different spots?

[00:43:03] The Brewbound: We do, yeah. So all of our year-round stuff that goes out to market is getting brewed in Norwood. All of our limited releases that get distributed out to market, it's still sold in both taverns. It's all being brewed in Norwood. We've got a 30-barrel system there. We've got a centrifuge on site, 60-barrel tanks. We have a lot more capabilities there and mostly the ability to make beer more efficient. That's still where the bulk of our production is coming from, but we do have a 10-barrel R&D brewhouse here on site and a full-time R&D brewer that's staffing it. I say here, I'm in South Boston today. So there are some beers that are exclusive to each location. It's a long-winded way of saying it's a mix.

[00:43:40] Jessica Infante: Nice. Now in Southie, there's been quite a few, you've got some fun brewery neighbors. And I was thinking, Justin and Zoe, that perhaps on a Friday in December, we throw ourselves a little team holiday brewery outing, send the newsletter out early, and then we'll start at Castle Island for some beers. And then I'm just putting this out there on the podcast record so that it has to happen.

[00:44:03] Lion Little: I don't know. The general podcast listeners can keep us. They'll be on our side. Yes.

[00:44:09] World Beverages: There's a general podcast listener, but is there a difference between podcast listeners? Zoe, I want to hear about that.

[00:44:14] Lion Little: Not that I know of, but maybe you have to look into it. I guess maybe subconsciously I think there is.

[00:44:20] The Brewbound: So Jess, you email me when you guys want that table and we'll make the reservation and then we will just flood you with inbox reminders about that reservation daily.

[00:44:30] World Beverages: Perfect.

[00:44:30] Jessica Infante: Excellent. I love pizza.

[00:44:32] World Beverages: And he gets so excited, like when you show up and surprise him, he gets so excited.

[00:44:38] Jessica Infante: He knew you were coming. You surprised nobody.

[00:44:42] The Brewbound: And it's only because he said he wasn't. Like, if he says he's not coming, he's obviously coming.

[00:44:48] World Beverages: I get on an airplane. I fly all the way from Chicago. I land. I'm all excited. I'm standing outside for 20 minutes waiting for Justin to find a parking spot, because he can't find a parking spot. So I'm, like, trying to hide so nobody sees me. And then we walk in. You're talking to some politician, glad-handing, being nice to everybody. And you ignore us for, like, I don't know, 20 minutes, half an hour, Justin?

[00:45:10] Zoe Licata: That's something like that. We got pizza and beers. I can't complain, you know. Thank you.

[00:45:16] World Beverages: Thank you. The bartender didn't believe that we were putting everything on Adam's tab.

[00:45:19] Zoe Licata: I didn't get towed. You know, we got a bunch of wins out of this, so I'm not going to complain.

[00:45:25] World Beverages: Yeah, Justin, Zoe, I hope you get a lot more love than me and Justin.

[00:45:28] The Brewbound: Don, the only takeaway from this is that you got to work on your poker face, man.

[00:45:37] World Beverages: That's true. Great thing about not having to work for anybody is that someday if I ever have to get a job again, just I hope that nobody pulls up any of these podcasts or anything, because there's no way.

[00:45:49] Zoe Licata: Let's move on to Don's other favorite subject, which is Allagash. Don.

[00:45:55] World Beverages: Oh, the Allagashians. Are we going to talk about the Allagashians?

[00:45:58] Zoe Licata: Yes. Let's cover some of that. Zoe, you sat in on the call last week. You asked some questions. I asked some questions. Kind of fill us in on what happened, Zoe, and where Allagash is going in 2022.

[00:46:12] Lion Little: Yeah, they're pretty positive about where they're at right now. I mean, they're up 11% versus 2019 and their off-premise presence and their dollar sales. So they were pretty excited about where they're at. One of their newest releases that came out this past year, the... Oh my gosh, it's going to slip my memory now.

[00:46:34] Zoe Licata: You're in Generation Z, just skip ahead to what's new in 2022.

[00:46:39] Lion Little: All right, new in 2022. Let's go ahead. Elegash, they are focusing on some new releases. So they have a Swiftly IPA, which was interesting to see because, I mean, we talked previously, they were And I don't know, they didn't necessarily agree, but we seem to believe that they're more about the non-IPA beers. So they have a Swiftly coming out that they're really excited about. And they're also focusing on their variety of packaging. So they have been really happy with their off-premise sales and they want to continue that with more 12-packs and with some select 4-packs. So overall, I mean, they're just focusing on continuing that off-premise success and expanding in wherever they have headspace.

[00:47:26] Zoe Licata: They're playing in some very popular beer styles. They've got, like you said, Swiftly IPA coming. They have Seconds to Summer, which is a lager beer. And then they have a Blond Ale that they're also going to be releasing. And you're right, like Jess, you and I had this conversation about they haven't really focused on IPA. And these are all going to be seasonal releases. And they've seemed to have played in some different spaces in the past in that space. And to me, this sort of has the feel of trying to tackle some of the more popular areas where they have holes in their portfolio. They may have done IPAs in the past, sure, but they haven't really done them at this level. So Don, When an established player like this jumps into some of these more popular styles, what does that signal to you?

[00:48:19] World Beverages: Disappointment for me. I mean, all I wanted to see was the multi-pack. You know, I thought there was going to be four cans of 12 ounce, four cans of 16 ounce, four cans of 19.2 ounce white. that was supposed to be t packaging nightmare. No, figured it out. It wasn't a bigger tall box and yo stuff like T shirts and l have been like one of thos you go somewhere and you box. You don't know what I guess white and different sizes and then like random stuff, t-shirts, coasters, things like that.

[00:49:01] Jessica Infante: I love it, but I've worked on several campaigns where we talked about like, can we put a koozie in this 12-pack box? And the answer is no, you can't. It's extraordinarily dangerous.

[00:49:10] World Beverages: Because you got to worry about the exploding koozie?

[00:49:12] Jessica Infante: There's not a machine that will insert a koozie into a box of beers. You got to like stop the line.

[00:49:16] World Beverages: You just got to be really quick as the canning line goes by. 70% of their sales, I believe, at least in scan, are still coming through from white, which I think seems smaller than it maybe used to be. I love it because, I mean, I personally love it because I guess the small, non-Modelo, Hoorah's Banquet, Drinker, and Me, you know, it loves the variety that comes from some of these breweries because, I mean, the depth and the power of their brewers. And, you know, they've shown it over the years with some of the small batch items that they've done. I mean, when they launched here and when they were, you know, bigger in Chicago and you used to be able to get two handles in every bar, there'd always be Allagash White and then there'd be the one handle that was almost like a chalkboard on the outside of that paddle where you'd write the different brands and styles that they'd have on it. and you know, a brewery l in just about any style a their toes into it, varie right now, even though Z will not like it. You kno will show off their death I mean, one of these brands may be that breakout that they haven't had besides white, but I'm excited to try any of their stuff. I mean, I think we all know on this podcast today, all of our love for the Allagashians. And I hope that one of these things comes out and is another big mainstay for them across the country.

[00:50:40] Jessica Infante: John, do you want to tell everybody about what you saw at the airport last night at your palace of a terminal?

[00:50:45] World Beverages: Do I need to say the price? Should I say it? That's why I'm asking you to talk about it. Yeah, $17.85.

[00:50:50] Jessica Infante: For an Allagash Cezanne in beautiful Newark, New Jersey.

[00:50:56] World Beverages: I was so disappointed because I was racing towards terminal. I was in Terminal A racing just to get to the bar faster than she was in Terminal C and I found the bar and I got up there and I saw Allagash. I was going to take the picture. I was like, see, I made it and it was Cezanne and it was Twice as much as the Sierra Nevada hazy, little something hazy, little hazy that I ended up having. No, my terminal had no bars. Yeah, there was only $9.

[00:51:27] Lion Little: I did ask Allagash when we were on the call about, they came out with a variety pack this past year, which I was really excited about because I am all for a variety of beers in my one purchase. And was slightly disappointed that they said they were impressed by how easy it went, but they are not sold on doing others in the future just based on how complicated it kind of is. And I'm curious, Adam, have you guys considered at all like playing in that space or is it kind of a nightmare to figure out a variety pack for bears?

[00:52:01] The Brewbound: It's definitely a nightmare, yet we've still considered it. In a lot of ways, it feels like one of those sort of necessary evils. For us, the challenge at the moment is more of a supply chain one, getting the aluminum 16 ounce format just does not work right now for multi-pack. Getting 12-ounce aluminum right now is a big challenge for a brewery of our size, so that's why we really haven't gone down that road yet. But it's something that's on the roadmap at some point in the future because, like you just said, that is what our consumers want. Ultimately, our job is to be delivering on what they want. We have to tip the scales a little bit every now and then, but I think that's something that's going to happen in the future for sure.

[00:52:40] World Beverages: Yeah, it is expensive. I mean, I guess back to the Allagash thing, too, it's like, you know, for them, I think it's probably a nice to have, not need to have. I mean, with Allagash White being 70% and Triple being 7% and North Sky was coming in around 3%, I mean, they've got You know, those brands making up 80% of their business, and those are probably all very profitable. I mean, to Adam was saying, too, it's not very profitable to do multi-packs. I mean, unless you're a very large-scale brewery, it's difficult to do. And plus, on top of it, the consumer isn't going to really put up with you trying to sell those things for over $20 a 12-pack when they should be. I mean, they should probably be $25 on the shelves. Generally, that consumer starts to get a little weird if anything's over $19.99. So there's not a lot of profitability there by the time you talk about repacking.

[00:53:30] The Brewbound: Yeah, that's especially true, Don. We saw a local brewery here a number of years ago try to release a 12-pack, 16-ounce format. And that was just IPA. It wasn't a mixed pack. But they were around that $20 price point at the time, which today would probably be $25, $28. And it just didn't work. It was gone almost as soon as it arrived on the scene because the consumer just recoiled at the price point, even though, at least in my estimation, it was beyond reasonable.

[00:53:53] World Beverages: to look into it. I know t I've seen like there's a Oh my gosh, I should know my friend works there.

[00:54:06] SPEAKER_??: Um

[00:54:06] The Brewbound: I know Modern Times for a while, I don't know if they're still doing it, was doing a 30-pack 16-ounce exclusively for Costco. And I think that kind of works because you can price it right. I mean, a 30-rack 16-ounce can is huge, physically huge. And so the price point just kind of doesn't seem so shocking. But I haven't really heard of anyone else getting away with anything larger than a six-pack 16-ounce.

[00:54:31] Jessica Infante: My old life, we used to do 28-packs of Oktoberfest just for Costco.

[00:54:36] World Beverages: at one point in time, it seemed like they got an Anheuser-Busch, that's terrible for me to say, but they were like the AB of Oktoberfest. I would go into like the big Benny's stores here in Chicago, and there'd be like six different types of pack sizes of Sam Adams Oktoberfest.

[00:54:51] Jessica Infante: Well, on a future episode, we can go over the various Oktoberfest steins that were also made because it's basically the same. There were like eight.

[00:54:59] World Beverages: Oh my gosh, I'm so disappointed that this is not being broadcast. Hold on. Oh, there it is.

[00:55:09] Zoe Licata: Oh my God.

[00:55:10] World Beverages: I worked on that. That is what you think it is. I used to get those made every year.

[00:55:14] Zoe Licata: Please describe it.

[00:55:16] World Beverages: So I have a gigantic, what is this, three feet tall? Three feet tall. Comical. I have a three foot tall Sam Adams beer stein that I'm holding right now.

[00:55:28] Jessica Infante: I want to say that looks like it's from 2015.

[00:55:30] World Beverages: I don't think it has a born on date. And the liquid, if there ever was in it, is long gone.

[00:55:36] Jessica Infante: So we would get samples of those and they'd be hand painted and everybody would stand around and look at the sample and be like, well, they need to get better at coloring the lines here. I'm like, it's a human being hand painting a three foot tall poly resin Stein. Like the fact that it's even here is miraculous.

[00:55:52] World Beverages: And the fact that I have it in my basement office is pretty miraculous.

[00:55:55] Jessica Infante: So that used to be like, not a big part of my job, but one of the things I had to do was get those suckers made. But in the exact opposite vein of 30 packs and 28 packs and three foot poly resin steins, Adam, how do single serves factor into your thinking about what you guys offer for off-premise retailers? Are they even a thing?

[00:56:14] The Brewbound: Not for us yet, but I can tell you for both personal and business reasons, I would love for Castle Island to get into single serve, especially 19-2s. It's something that we've definitely seen traction in the market for other brands, especially when it comes to venues and arenas. But I also think that we've got a couple of brands that would be really well positioned for that format. Again, like I was saying to Zoe, the challenges for us right now at the moment are mostly supply chain related, but if I could wave my magic wand and put Castle Island into any format tomorrow, it would actually probably be a 19-2 before it falls back 12-ounce, which is crazy, but I have my reasons.

[00:56:50] Jessica Infante: No, that makes sense. I don't think you're alone in that thinking.

[00:56:54] World Beverages: 6% of all craft sales are now coming out of single serves. 6%. It's crazy. And the numbers, which kind of got beat down a little bit this last year because of the fact that people weren't going into those type of stores where they were purchased. You know, at a lot of the train stations, a lot of the CVS, the Walgreens that were next to kind of their transportation centers were kind of down, but, but single serves are coming back strong. I mean, hard seltzers are a big portion. They're up 23% craft up 50, uh, super premiums flat, but cider F and B's up 147%. Uh, imports up nine. Yeah. The single service, that's a massive opportunity there, Adam.

[00:57:33] The Brewbound: I think the other thing that makes it an opportunity is right now it's mostly the national or large regional players that are even in the space. At least in South Boston market, we've got Dogfish Head, we've got Voodoo Ranger, we've got Lagunitas, we've got a couple of the other big national brands. I know Night Shift experimented with 19.2s. I don't know if that's still a thing they're doing or not. But outside of that, I really couldn't point to any other small local crafters that are producing the style or the format, which to me just points big time to opportunity. Because that's what consumers want from a liquid perspective. If you can deliver the format they want for those occasions, I think there's a lot of room to grow.

[00:58:09] World Beverages: It also depends on which distributor network you're at. I mean, so if you're a craft distributor and you're playing with one of the small craft houses, they're, they're not calling on those accounts and enough, no frequency to be able to either keep them on the shelves or keep them in stock. I mean, most of those locations don't have big overstock or backstock. So unless you're in there to kind of resell them two cases every other day, uh, that's kind of a difficult thing to work with. So you got a couple of things against you. You got the machine, you got the access to the cans, and then you got to have the right access to the distributor.

[00:58:37] The Brewbound: Yeah, well, I can tell you selfishly, you know, in Boston, we've got a lot of commuter boats that bring people between the city and the various towns around the area across the bay here, and pretty much all of them serve alcohol on board. So I very much selfishly want to be drinking a 19-2 of Keeper as I go from Boston down to Hull or over to hang up on the commuter boat. That, to me, sounds like a pretty good time.

[00:58:58] World Beverages: I'll be across the way drinking a Fiverr, so that'll be perfect. Perfect.

[00:59:02] Zoe Licata: Well, this has been awesome. We've got one final final for you both. The limited edition Arby's Curly Fry and Crinkle Fry Vodka. Would you drink it?

[00:59:14] World Beverages: Yeah, I live in Chicago. I drink Malort. So the answer is yes. I mean, would I drink the entire bottle? No, but would I like drink it and like that? That is something you give somebody for like their 30th, 40th, 50th birthday. I'm going to be giving those away like crazy. That's gonna be Christmas presents for everyone.

[00:59:32] The Brewbound: That sounds like icing. I feel like that's the boobie prize in a Yankee swap this year. It's like the Arby's French fry vodka. Oh yeah, hell yeah.

[00:59:41] Zoe Licata: Justin Zoe, are you going to drink it?

[00:59:44] Lion Little: I'll try it once. I feel like it exists. You gotta try it once just to say that you did. I'm with Joey on that.

[00:59:53] World Beverages: All right. I mean, can't you see ordering this at a restaurant? I mean, yeah, I'll take the Arby's curly fry. I want that up. No, no, no blue cheese stuffed olives. I'd like just like a little onion ring on the side. Yeah, a little onion ring on the side.

[01:00:07] The Brewbound: I'm going to grill 23. I' the 100 day ribeye and I french fry martini.

[01:00:15] World Beverages: Yeah, what I want up slightly of like vermouth, it's j of ketchup.

[01:00:22] Zoe Licata: They like pu And then you're good.

[01:00:27] World Beverages: Did we cover anything at all today, Justin, or we just talk about the allegations?

[01:00:33] Zoe Licata: I think we're good on this one. So with that, we'll say that's our show for this week. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe. Thank you to Don and Adam for hanging out with us. We will see you all next week.