Brewbound Podcast: The Experience of a ‘Craft Beer Casualty’

[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with Check Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch Check Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC.

[00:00:28] Indeed Brewing: What's it like to be forced out of the company you helped build? Find out more on Check Brewbound Podcast.

[00:00:46] Jessica Infante: Hey everyone, welcome back to Check Brewbound Podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I'm the editor of Brewbound and I am joined by the one and only Jessica Infante. Jess, how are you doing?

[00:00:58] Indeed Brewing: I'm pretty good. I think this long weekend was very helpful for my mental state. So doing all right. How are you?

[00:01:04] Jessica Infante: I'm okay. I think we all sort of needed a long weekend after what's been going on the last few weeks, which we'll get into even more so this episode. We have a conversation coming up with Rachel Anderson, one of the co-founders of Indeed Brewing. But first, let's get into the news of the week. Athletic Brewing, the non-alcoholic beer maker in Connecticut and also on the other coast in San Diego, has raised a lot of money and they're also growing at a very fast clip. They pulled in $50 million in a Series C funding round from investors that was spearheaded by Alliance Consumer Growth and TRB Advisors. And that wrapped up on May 11th. This is the third round that they've done. Most recently, they did a $17.5 million Series B round, which helped them expand in San Diego. They've got production on both coasts. They're considering another production facility on the East Coast to meet demand. Demand is really growing, as we saw in the new brewer.

[00:02:14] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, so the May-June edition of The New Brewer, which the Brewers Association puts out and has all of the production data for every brewery that participates. Athletic, their output grew by 30,000 barrels in 2020. That's growth of 400%. In 2019, they produced 7,500 barrels. So a lot of people drank a lot of non-alcoholic beer in 2020.

[00:02:41] Jessica Infante: Right. And off-premise sales of non-alcoholic beer continue to grow. They are up 31.5% to more than $64 million year-to-date through April 18th. That's according to market research firm IRI. And Athletic has a fairly good chunk of that. We know that that segment is dominated thus far by Heineken Zero Zero. but still growing fits into a lot of those trends that we've seen, health and wellness, moderation.

[00:03:12] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, you know, you mentioned off-premise growth, but interestingly over the weekend I was out and about in my town of Salem, Massachusetts and passed one of our restaurants with their outdoor seating area and they had some athletic patio umbrellas. which in my old life, I used to be in charge of ordering the patio umbrellas for the whole year. It's a major purchase and that they're investing in a piece like that, I think really shows that they have some machinations on expanding more into on-premise, which will be interesting.

[00:03:43] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and they have a hoppy, sparkling water day pack that they are pushing out too. Not quite a seltzer there. Seltzer-ish play, I guess. Seltzer adjacent? Yeah, they're pushing the bounds. They're going into different spaces and it's definitely a company that we are watching and a lot of people are watching and I think there's a lot of excitement around that and there are a lot of challenges too. We know a lot of craft players are in that space already with Brooklyn Brewery and Lagunitas and as well as Samuel Adams and Dogfish Head jumping in. It is a territory that's getting crowded fast. It's still, you know, less than 1%. I think it's 0.52% of the overall beer category dollars right now, but growing and we'll see where it goes from here. Yeah, definitely a space to watch. Also, something that we're watching or reading, I should say, is the new Brewer. You mentioned it. This is the most exciting time of the year for a trade publication, I guess. We get to see all the production numbers from 2020, which Not a great year as we all knew it was going to be because of the pandemic and the shutdown of the on-premise. 36 of the top 50 brewers association to find craft brewing companies recorded volume declines in 2020. That number could be even higher as three other brewers did not report their numbers, but a handful, a little more than a handful, eked out some growth.

[00:05:29] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, it's definitely been certainly a mixed bag for everybody this year. I know you dug into the top 50. I explored regional Craft Beer beyond the top 50. And what we really started to see there, I did a whole lot of counting and figured out that 72% of top 50 breweries saw decline. Outside of the top 50, only 55% were in decline. So I guess that tells us that things were a little bit better for the smaller regionals. But altogether of all of the 171 regional Craft Beer, 60% of them were in decline in 2020.

[00:06:05] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and when we dive deeper into the top 59 of the top 50, BA Craft Beer increased production volume in 2020, and just three of those were ranked among the top 10. Those breweries are Sierra Nevada, Canarchy, and Artisanal Brewing Ventures. And as you all probably know, the latter two of those are roll-ups, so they are multiple breweries.

[00:06:33] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, I mean, who did we see didn't publish this year? I believe was Yingling was one of them who was considered the largest Craft Beer in the country.

[00:06:41] Jessica Infante: Yingling, Abita, and August Shell. That's 119 and 23.

[00:06:48] Indeed Brewing: Wow, pretty large companies.

[00:06:52] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and then you look at the number two, which is Boston Beer Company, and that's Samuel Adams and Dogfish Heads. Production numbers combined this year, that's 1.7 million barrels down 16% compared to the year before. And this is a story of continued decline of the Samuel Adams beer brand, but nobody's crying for Boston Beer because They have Truly, and they have Twisted Tea, and those brands have propped up Boston Beer. They shipped about 7.37 million barrels of product in 2020. So if 1.7 million of those are just their beer brands, there's a lot of F&Bs, seltzer, cider, other products mixed in there, but mostly seltzer and Twisted Tea.

[00:07:48] Indeed Brewing: wild. I know you had found their most recent peak had happened in 2014. And it's been kind of downhill since then. Now, 2014 brought us the release of Rebel IPA, which was a huge deal, had a lot of support behind it from national accounts and wholesalers and the Salesforce and And then every year after the Sam Adams brand declined.

[00:08:14] Jessica Infante: Yeah, that peak was 2.55 million barrels of beer. And now it's down to 1.7 million. Crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. Also, kind of a brand that isn't used to decline is Firestone Walker. That company has been growing and growing and growing. But 2020 is a unique year of challenges. As we all acknowledge, you know, you cannot take away that on premise piece and just expect volume growth, I will fully admit that this industry focuses way too much on volume as a marker of success. It is not the only marker of success. It's probably not even number one for most of these companies. Dollars to the bank, that is the marker of success for, I would say, profitability. Dollars to the bank, that's where my mind is, but this is the data that we have. This is what we go on. This is what we're looking at right now, but we will acknowledge and stress that volume isn't the only definition of success.

[00:09:28] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Firestone Walker did something interesting in 2020 that was kind of anathema to what everybody else was doing, and they've retrenched from a few markets. I believe it was sometime over the summer, they stopped selling their products up in our neck of the woods in New England, which we saw a couple other regional Craft Beer open a ton of new states, like Three Floyds opened a whole bunch of new states. you got to assume there's either, you know, there's short-term payoff in opening new markets, you get to increase your volume by having new places to sell your beer, but you also got to invest in those markets. So you have to assume that Firestone Walker realized the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze to be selling their beers up here in New England.

[00:10:07] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And a company that doesn't fit the Brewers Association's definition of a Craft Beer anymore is New Belgium Brewing Company. They were acquired by Curinone Lion Little World Beverages in 2019. And so they fell out of the 2020 data set and they had a hell of a year. This was the best year I believe New Belgium had volume wise. They produced 975,000 barrels. That's a 10% increase. And you can attribute that to the Voodoo Ranger brand.

[00:10:44] Indeed Brewing: for sure. I know Voodoo Ranger has been huge for them. New Belgium has six SKUs in IRI's top 30 craft Brad Avery month, and usually about five of them are Voodoo Ranger. So they've really developed a really nice little rocket ship there for themselves, for lack of a better word, even though I kind of hate that term.

[00:11:04] Jessica Infante: If you're playing a beer trade publication drinking game, rocket ship is you drink. That might even be the free square on a bingo card for beer industry trade publications.

[00:11:19] Indeed Brewing: It certainly could be. We do a good job at not overusing it.

[00:11:23] Jessica Infante: I would like to think that we don't, but I'm sure that there's like a super cut of me saying rocket ship, rocket ship, rocket ship over and over again. Before we wrap up this section of talking about the top 50, there's one company that really made a large leap on here, and that is Scottish Craft Beer makers, BrewDog. They jumped 25 spots from number 66 in the 2019 New Brewer. and they went all the way to number 41. That's a little surprising to me. When you look at it, they were making just 4,144 barrels in 2017.

[00:12:05] Indeed Brewing: We'll have any would they make you in 2016.

[00:12:07] Jessica Infante: Zero.

[00:12:09] Indeed Brewing: Exactly. Crazy.

[00:12:10] Jessica Infante: So you go from zero to 62,542 in 2020 and more locations are on the way. They just announced a Vegas location, which that to me sounds crazy, but I'm not James Watt or Martin Dickey.

[00:12:32] Indeed Brewing: No, I love Vegas.

[00:12:34] Jessica Infante: Or inequity for punk.

[00:12:35] Indeed Brewing: No, no, neither of us are punks.

[00:12:38] Jessica Infante: We are not, nor were we teenage anarchists.

[00:12:42] Indeed Brewing: Speak for yourself.

[00:12:44] Jessica Infante: Oh, okay.

[00:12:46] Indeed Brewing: What's interesting about BrewDog is they came from Scotland, obviously, and they kind of grew out of nowhere.

[00:12:52] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:12:53] Indeed Brewing: Interesting to me why they picked Columbus as their US home base. Columbus, Ohio is where they are, and they've started to kind of spread out in that same area, tap rooms in Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.

[00:13:05] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:13:05] Indeed Brewing: Fertile market for Scottish punks.

[00:13:07] Jessica Infante: And we have to circle back to the biggest story in the beer industry over the last three weeks, which is misconduct, misogyny, sexual assault, sexual abuse, sexual harassment within the industry. And those stories that continue to come out over social media, in particular from Breanne Allen's Instagram account, Rat Magnet,

[00:13:33] Indeed Brewing: So in addition to Brienne's Instagram account, another account has really taken up the mantle of daily posting and sharing of stories that they received. And that is at Emboldened Act Advanced. It's run by a group of women in the beer industry who are remaining anonymous for now. They've started sharing, they save stories and highlight reels as Brienne had been doing, but they're breaking them out geographically, which honestly just makes my life easier when I need to find something. But yeah, fallout has continued. And this has been an interesting story for me as a journalist, because the question is really, how do you verify when something is being told anonymously? And the way that we've approached our reporting is to report on what the breweries themselves are doing and what they come out and say publicly and steps that they take afterward. So we've had quite a few big announcements from breweries since we last spoke with you guys on the podcast.

[00:14:26] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and we didn't really get a chance to have that long weekend that we envisioned because another story broke sort of late afternoon on Friday. That story, the ownership of Worcester, Massachusetts-based Warm Town Brewery, took a step back out of the day-to-day operations after several allegations of workplace toxicity.

[00:14:52] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, we spoke with General Manager Scott Metzger on Friday afternoon, and he told us that of the group of owners that are stepping down, some of them, like David Fields, have official positions within the brewery, and some of them are more of advisors, like the Clarks. Rich and Jay Clark are going to be stepping away from their assistance in the strategizing for the brewery. The ownership group had a weekly meeting where they talked about strategy and direction. So that's gonna stop. And in its place, Wormtown is going to be forming an advisory panel of people from diverse professional backgrounds to act as a goal between Scott and other brewery leaders and the owners. The brewery does still have a fiduciary responsibility to them, as Scott told us, but the day-to-day around there is going to look a little different.

[00:15:39] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and one of the co-founders, Ben Roche, is going to sort of step back from that ownership role, but he will remain as brewmaster and he will report to Metzger.

[00:15:50] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, that's another big change that's happening. You know, this isn't the first time we've seen the owners of a brewery, you know, take a step down. We saw Jacob McKean at Modern Times announced that he was stepping down as CEO and Gene Broilette at Tired Hands also is stepping down. But, you know, we haven't heard any news from any of these breweries about what's happening to these people's ownership stakes. So as far as we know, they still own their shares of the brewery.

[00:16:18] Jessica Infante: And another story that you reported on was that of Rachel Anderson, the co-founder of Indeed Brewing in Minneapolis. And we're gonna dig deeper into that story actually here now. With Rachel herself. Yeah. So here's our featured conversation with Rachel.

[00:16:37] Indeed Brewing: A few weeks ago, Rachel Anderson, one of the three co-founders of Indeed Brewing in Minneapolis, shared her experience of being pushed out of the company. Anderson was inspired to tell her story after the brewery's current COO shared an open letter inviting people to tell her how the brewery has failed at being a welcoming place for women in the industry. Rachel shared her story in an essay titled, I Am a Craft Beer Casualty. Thanks for being here, Rachel. How are you? I'm good. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for taking the time. So Rachel, you helped found Indeed Brewing in 2011 and you were forced out in 2015 by the other co-owners. Why did you decide to share your story now?

[00:17:18] Rachel Anderson: I had been kind of trying to ignore the industry for a while, trying to move on and trying to just get on with my life. And then I saw Breanne Allen and her Instagram account and the thousands of stories that had started to come out about women's mistreatment in the industry. And I was paying attention at that point, but what really made me pay attention is when I saw Indeed Brewing named anonymously in some of those posts. And I felt like I wanted to see how the company was going to respond to that. And when they did respond to that, their response made me really angry. And when I saw their response, I felt like I could no longer stay quiet.

[00:18:16] Jessica Infante: Going back to your time at Indeed, what was your working relationship like with the co-founders in the beginning? And when did you notice that change?

[00:18:27] Rachel Anderson: In the beginning, I felt like we were on equal footing. That was my assumption going in. Definitely red flags, kind of ego wars, things like that, that were happening early on. But I was counting on the fact that I had equal ownership within the company and that would kind of protect me from any discrimination that could potentially happen.

[00:18:57] Jessica Infante: Had you been friends with them previously?

[00:19:01] Rachel Anderson: Yeah, we had known each other since college. I was better friends with one of the co-owners and had an acquaintance-type friendship with the other one. But yeah, we were all friends. We had all actually worked at the college newspaper called the Minnesota Daily and spent a lot of time coming up in college together. But I think you asked, when did I feel like my standing at work was starting to change. I think that really happened when I had my first child and I started to feel a shift in how I was perceived at work. My first child was born prematurely and totally unexpectedly at 34 weeks. So he spent two weeks in the hospital after he was born. And it was a pretty traumatic introduction to motherhood. And I just got this sense that what had happened was kind of a huge inconvenience to indeed. And they started to see me as a burden. And then when I decided to have my second child, I was so uncomfortable even announcing it. which is a pretty hard thing to do when you're when you work at a brewery because you're not able to imbibe at all and people notice that. And I certainly didn't feel like I could be away for very long after she was born. And I always knew that I wanted to be a mom, but I felt so unsupported as a mother at Indeed that I really considered whether or not to even have my second child. And in particular, like when I was on the fence about it. It was not because I didn't want another child, but it was because I was worried about what that would mean for me at work. Ultimately, I decided to have her. Obviously, so glad that I did. But this is really real for so many women. And these are huge life decisions that are being affected by this kind of culture. And it's really messed up. And I think that's why you see a lot of women leave the industry. And I think that's also why you see a lot of women don't even think that they can enter.

[00:21:28] Indeed Brewing: Now, when you had your first child, had any other women on staff at Indeed Brewing through the same process? Was there like a maternity leave protocol in place? Had anyone done it before?

[00:21:38] Rachel Anderson: No. So when I had my first child, it was in 2012. So it was really early on after Indeed opened. And basically at that point in time, we had a very very minimal staff. We had a taproom staff and then we had production staff and that was kind of it. So I was the first person to kind of go through that process at Indeed. There was definitely no forethought into like how we would, I think, handle those types of situations.

[00:22:23] Indeed Brewing: Now, when you and I spoke last week, you told me that you were offered your ownership stake without, you didn't ask for it, it was just offered to you. How did you feel at that time? What was that experience like?

[00:22:37] Rachel Anderson: It was incredible. I thought that it was the chance to be a part of something really big, you know, building this brand from the ground up. And I saw it as a great opportunity for myself and my family. And I thought it would be a really promising future.

[00:22:59] Indeed Brewing: When you joined, you know, your co-founders, you were brought on to handle all of the branding, correct? And what else did you do?

[00:23:09] Rachel Anderson: I did strategy and positioning. You know, I looked at our competitors in the market. I saw where there were openings where we might be able to get a foothold, what would set us apart as a brand. And at the time it was, really kind of at the beginning of this Craft Beer boom in Minnesota. So there were a handful of players in Minnesota in the Craft Beer scene, but we were kind of one of the first to open before it just exploded. So getting brand awareness at that point and setting ourselves apart was really huge. There were, I mean, countless subsequent breweries that launched after Indeed. And I think just as a marketing and branding person looking at some of those startups, that piece of the puzzle is missing and they just kind of fall into the fray a little bit without the brand.

[00:24:16] Jessica Infante: So in those early days at Indeed, what were the workplace dynamics like for the whole team?

[00:24:22] Rachel Anderson: In the very, very beginning, there was just so much excitement and so much buzz and newness and people were super just pumped to be there, to be part of it. But as things progressed and as we started to grow, and we started to grow like immediately and very dramatically, the culture started to become toxic. I think there was a level of intimidation coming from top management, I think. People were afraid to speak up. People were afraid to make mistakes. People felt undervalued, underappreciated. There was kind of like a click-like atmosphere where if you're in the click, then you're good. But if you weren't in the click, you felt really vulnerable. And I think I think Craft Beer is unique in the capacity that it can be like a real, I don't know, Petri dish for toxic masculinity. Many of the small startups are founded by privileged white guys. and people who have the resources and connections to fund these really capital intensive companies. And in a lot of cases, being a brewery owner is, I think, driven by ego. And when you're top of the chain, that's just sort of like the pinnacle. And so these guys walk around like, you know, like they're untouchable.

[00:26:10] Indeed Brewing: Looking back now, what would you say to the Rachel of those years? What advice would you give her?

[00:26:15] Rachel Anderson: I think I would tell her to find allies in the industry. Even if I didn't feel like I had allies at Indeed, there are allies in the industry. And just sharing my experience with people, I think would have made me feel less alone in it.

[00:26:39] Indeed Brewing: Do you feel like you were forced to question your own sense of reality when you were there?

[00:26:44] Rachel Anderson: Oh yeah, certainly. I felt totally gaslit to the fact where I started to question my value and my contributions 100%.

[00:26:57] Jessica Infante: It sounds like you weren't the only one on staff either, though, who was experiencing the toxicity.

[00:27:07] Rachel Anderson: Yeah, it's crazy because once my essay was published the response was pretty immediate and overwhelming and I would say upwards to 20 present and former Indeed employees have contacted me and all kind of echoing the sentiment that I outlined in my assay of just the toxicity and you know feeling disposable and undervalued. And I mean, that goes, it runs a gamut from taproom employees to sales employees, to production employees, to marketing and events people. So I think it really demonstrates the depth of the problem there and the, patterns of behavior that have been perpetuated.

[00:28:09] Indeed Brewing: Were most of the employees you heard from women?

[00:28:13] Rachel Anderson: No, I heard from men and women, probably more women than men, but I've heard from both and people that I've never met that I didn't work with personally and people that I did work with when I was there and who I knew.

[00:28:27] Indeed Brewing: Wow. So when we spoke last week, you told me you spent years trying to move on and, you know, you and I shared a little bit that I've, I've lived through a similar situation and I too still feel like I'm still trying to move on. What tactics did you use to get yourself through that time?

[00:28:44] Rachel Anderson: You know, I was in a really difficult spot personally. I had two young kids, like a one year old and a three year old at the time. and I was unemployed, I had no health insurance. So immediately I just had to figure out how to take care of the immediate needs, like getting a job to support my family and taking care of my kids and trying to navigate being present for a one and a three-year-old because they need you a lot. In the beginning, I focused on just getting back on stable ground. And then, you know, also, I mean, I love being creative and I love making things and in the midst of like all the turmoil, I started drawing and making prints and patterns, which was really kind of therapeutic because I felt like it was something that was all mine, I guess. But I definitely didn't have time to wallow in the injustice of it all.

[00:30:00] Jessica Infante: Not having that time to sort of process what was going on, when did you realize sort of the severity of what you went through?

[00:30:09] Rachel Anderson: In all honesty, I think I'm still realizing the impact of my experience at Indeed. Publishing the essay was really difficult. I almost didn't do it at all. But once I did, I felt like just this enormous weight off of my shoulders. And it felt a little bit transformative with all of the support and response that I've got from that. I know this is kind of a crazy example, but I was at the grocery store on Saturday, just this past Saturday, and I saw an acquaintance from that period of my life. And normally I probably would have like ducked down the aisle and tried to avoid talking to them. But just really unconsciously, I flagged them down and we had like a 10 minute conversation. And that's something that I am certain I wouldn't have done even like a week ago. I'm still everyday kind of now realizing the impact and the weight of everything that happened.

[00:31:28] Indeed Brewing: I know you came in one day in October of 2015 and you were presented with a termination letter and that obviously was your way out. But had you considered leaving before that happened?

[00:31:39] Rachel Anderson: I had considered leaving. I considered, you know, what would it look like if I just quit this and went and got a job at someplace that was healthier and just better for my mental health. But I think looking back, I felt like I was in so deep and that my, the stakes were so high, especially in the position I was in becoming like a single parent and worrying about how I was gonna take care of my family, that kind of made me really think twice about doing that.

[00:32:24] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, I mean, you helped build the whole company. Of course, it was part of your identity and, you know, like your self-concept. I'm sure it would be really hard to want to walk away from that without, you know, going through a divorce and having two small kids to raise. So, totally makes sense to me that you would have had misgivings about leaving.

[00:32:42] Rachel Anderson: you know, towards the end of my time at Indeed, we had grown quite a bit and we were stacking up at that point. And we were hiring people in managerial roles and things like that. And there were women that were in roles at Indeed that had started coming to me at that point and just expressing their, their feelings of being undervalued and kind of marginalized and bullied. And I think that I was the only safe sounding board at that point. And I definitely also felt a responsibility to those people to try and make it better.

[00:33:32] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, you're carrying a lot of weight on your shoulders. Did your co-founders try to discourage you from speaking out at the time of your termination?

[00:33:44] Rachel Anderson: So at the time of my termination, I attempted to kind of resolve my issues with them and their proposed buyout. I had an employment lawyer, and she had laid out my claims against them including family status discrimination my minority shareholder oppression. I also own the copyrights to the indie logos and. their stance was kind of like they refuted the validity of any of my claims and they would only settle a case on the condition that it be like a global resolution and that would release them from current and future claims and with that would come an NDA And I think they felt pretty certain that I would have to take whatever they were offering because I wouldn't have any other options financially. And so I think the idea that I would fight for a more equitable and fair buyout and hold them accountable for the unjust termination was not part of their plan at all. I think they were counting on me to be grateful for a buyout and to shut up and walk away. And I think their failure to kind of see their behavior as a liability to the company kind of speaks volumes about their inability to even take responsibility for any wrongdoing.

[00:35:25] Jessica Infante: So you still have your stake within the company? Yeah. And so what resolution did you sort of reach out of that? You maintain your ownership stake. Do you still own the rights to the Indeed marks?

[00:35:41] Rachel Anderson: I do. Yeah. I still have my ownership stake in the company, which is the same ownership stake that both the other co-founders have. And I have copyrights to the Indeed marks.

[00:35:57] Jessica Infante: Are you able to benefit financially from the brewery? And if not, why not?

[00:36:05] Rachel Anderson: I haven't benefited financially from the brewery at all. They haven't done any profit sharing or distributions to any of the shareholders. of Indeed and why that is, I honestly don't have an answer for that. They've been less than forthcoming about their company financials. So I haven't been able to make an informed conclusion about the value of my ownership at this point. I certainly have theories about why that is.

[00:36:38] Indeed Brewing: So last week, Indeed co-founder Tom Wozniak shared a public statement and he said, I'm going to quote, Rachel's account of founding, working and being terminated from Indeed is full of gut-wrenching and imperfect decisions that exist with personal and business relationships. As in life, there are countless things that I wish we'd done better, things we'd learn quicker, and things we still need to learn. Rachel's work set our brand on a positive course, is forever baked into our DNA, and we are grateful for that." And in that same letter, Tom wrote that Indeed was considering bringing in a third party consultant to really examine their culture and how it became this way and how it can be fixed and offered you the ability to help select that partner. Now, you and I have talked a little bit about what your response was, but how did you feel when you read his statement?

[00:37:27] Rachel Anderson: I felt like it was not genuine. I felt like, you know, it's been over six years since this went down and Only after publishing my story was there any acknowledgement of any harm. And I also say harm because it's a very vague word. You know, they're not taking responsibility for discriminatory practices, for sexism. and you know the phrasing of gut-wrenching and nuanced is also very interesting because it leaves room to interpret that as there was justification for terminating me. At least that's how I interpreted it and to me that is also skirting responsibility.

[00:38:23] Indeed Brewing: We've seen plenty of posts from breweries in recent weeks pledging to do better, to add harassment policies and trainings, and to set up anonymous reporting systems. But your lived experience might not have been affected by any of those changes. What do you think breweries can do to prevent similar situations from happening?

[00:38:40] Rachel Anderson: I think breweries need to take a hard and honest look at the way marginalized people have been treated. That would be a good start. I think creating a safe space where people feel like they can be 100% honest about how they feel is important. I think committing to righting past wrongs would go a long way. But when we think about what it would take to change these kinds of places, It's so important to have women in leadership roles to bring issues like the ones that I faced to the table. And I'm talking about real leadership roles, not titles. Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of tokenizing that happens in this industry. Women and marginalized folks who are held up as examples of how these companies are inclusive and equal. But under the surface, they're not supported and treated equally. And it's a very real issue. So I think, you know, you'll see breweries that say, look, we have a female brewer. We're not part of the problem. But when these employees are not supported in the ways that they need to be supported, you know, for example, paid maternity leave, feeling like they're able to announce or start families, feeling like they can support their families with fair wages and compensation, feeling like they can speak up and have a voice, it's all a pretty carefully crafted facade and the ones that are reaping the rewards from it are certainly not the folks on the margins.

[00:40:26] Jessica Infante: You mentioned righting past wrongs as a way of sort of making things right. Is there anything Indeed can do at this point to sort of make things right with you and resolve the past issues or is the relationship forever fractured?

[00:40:48] Rachel Anderson: Well, I think the relationship is definitely forever fractured, but that doesn't mean that they can't take steps to repair the harm that they've done. And what those steps are, I think are to be determined, but there's definitely room for them to take more accountability than they have so far.

[00:41:12] Indeed Brewing: So Rachel one last question before we let you go and this is definitely a higher view than just indeed, and perhaps even bigger than the beer industry itself but you know there's many examples of women who are, you know, more at the forefront, their male counterparts and ownership of breweries, you know, like, Deb Carey, Kim Jordan, Wyn Odell, Meg Dale, but many times women who have helped build breweries across the country get written out of the story. Why do you think we don't tell their stories nearly as often as we talk about the Jim Cooks and Ken Grossmans of the world?

[00:41:44] Rachel Anderson: You know, I've thought about this a lot and forgive me for the generalization, but I think that men are oftentimes driven more by ego than women. When I was at Indeed, I knew I was an equal owner, but I was okay kind of putting my head down and working behind the scenes. And I think putting your head down and working hard, unfortunately, sometimes causes you to get written out of the story when you're not out there taking credit for everything.

[00:42:21] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, and without those women who put their heads down and do the work, a lot of these stories wouldn't be able to be told at all. Agreed, agreed. Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us and thank you for sharing your story. I know when we spoke, you know, last week, you and I, or I told you that I was a little worried that some of the stories that Brienne and now the new account we're sharing were so, so awful, like stories of assault that some women who had been through things like what you've been through would say, oh, well, my story's not that big and would stay silent. I think you coming forward with your story has enabled a lot of other women who have been through similar things to feel empowered to say the same. So I'm sure those women will thank you for sharing what you've been through.

[00:43:06] Rachel Anderson: Thank you so much. I feel every comment, message, voicemail, email that I've gotten like has really bullied me in this whole process. And I can't thank every one of those people who don't support enough for, I guess, validating my experience. And thank you for allowing me to share this with even more people. Thank you for joining us.

[00:43:38] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Thank you. All right, that was our featured interview with Rachel Anderson, one of the co-founders of Indeed Brewing. And before we get out of here, we are going to talk about something that is near and dear to Jess and Fante's heart.

[00:43:55] Indeed Brewing: Yes, and that is Mare of Easttown. We figured we'd end this on a high note, and that high note apparently is with a prestige murder mystery drama. But one thing I've noticed in watching, you know, Mare of Easttown, first of all, Kate Winslet nails, nails the Pennsylvania accent. It's impressive. She says water. She says home. It's great.

[00:44:15] Jessica Infante: A lot of O's. A lot of O's. If you watch the making of Mare of Easttown, which I did because I love the show and I had to watch everything because they only gave us seven episodes, but if they gave us eight, it probably just wouldn't feel right. But yes, they go through the dialect of Delaware County and there are a lot of O's and they talk about sending photos of people in line at Sheetz or was it Wawa? It was Wawa. it was definitely Wawa. So they would take pictures of customers in line at Wawa and send them to the costume designers.

[00:44:56] Indeed Brewing: I can't believe you just said sheets instead of Wawa.

[00:44:59] Jessica Infante: I have regrets.

[00:45:02] Indeed Brewing: I accept your apology. Wawa.

[00:45:05] Jessica Infante: You know, it'd be like calling a come and go a Casey's.

[00:45:10] Indeed Brewing: Sure. Both of those sound like important cultural touchstones for their respective home markets.

[00:45:15] Jessica Infante: for Iowans, it is. Casey's Pizza, man. Casey's Pizza is the thing.

[00:45:21] Indeed Brewing: Is Casey's like a Wawa and or a Sheetz?

[00:45:24] Jessica Infante: I would have to go to a Wawa or a Sheetz to know.

[00:45:28] Indeed Brewing: You have not had the pleasure?

[00:45:29] Jessica Infante: I have not, no. But we are totally off in space at this point.

[00:45:34] Indeed Brewing: We are so off the rails. The next person that wants to hold a beer industry conference in Wawa territory, I will be eternally grateful so that we can introduce this man to the wonders of Wawa. As I say, Far too often in this space, I grew up in New Jersey and I miss Wawa as much as I miss my own family. However, the reason we're talking about Mayor of Easttown is the beer. The beer, I feel like, was almost another character. Beer was so woven into that show. And Mayor herself, her beer of choice was Rolling Rock. And my grandmother is from Pennsylvania and that was also her beer of choice, but she's from Wilkes-Barre, north of Delco. So Mayer drank a lot of Rolling Rock, Yingling showed up a lot, and then there was one rogue Sam Adams in the last episode. So it's just really interesting because I feel like AB's got to have some kind of deal with HBO because you see a lot of their products in HBO shows. Is that something that you notice too, or am I just a crazy person?

[00:46:30] Jessica Infante: I think you might just be over-observant.

[00:46:35] Indeed Brewing: Good thing I'm in this job then.

[00:46:37] Jessica Infante: But yeah, yingling is a given. And Sam, yeah, you would expect that because Pennsylvania Brewery, but was that mystery beer, was it an Irish style red ale? Was it brick red? Was it Oktoberfest? And I just thought it was a red label.

[00:46:57] Indeed Brewing: I don't know. I saw red too. I have no idea what that could be. I don't think they make Rebel IPA anymore.

[00:47:04] Jessica Infante: I'm doing a Google image search and I'm not coming up with a lot other than red ales and possibly Oktoberfest with my eyes deceiving me.

[00:47:15] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, it was really funny to see how massively beer factored into that show.

[00:47:22] Jessica Infante: And Rolling Rock of all things.

[00:47:24] Indeed Brewing: Rolling Rock.

[00:47:25] Jessica Infante: I would love to know the production volume of Rolling Rock at this point.

[00:47:30] Indeed Brewing: I guess we cannot find out for you in the New Brewer.

[00:47:33] Jessica Infante: Is that the most screen time a Rolling Rock has had in what, 15, 20 years?

[00:47:41] Indeed Brewing: I'd say 30, easily.

[00:47:43] Jessica Infante: 30?

[00:47:43] Indeed Brewing: Yeah, yeah.

[00:47:45] Jessica Infante: That's a beer I don't think about, ever.

[00:47:49] Indeed Brewing: So what's interesting to me about Rolling Rock is one of these things that I learned in all of my beer education training in my past life at my former employer. And in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, their brew kettles, supposedly, this is the way that I've heard it, aren't vented. And the condensation that collects on the inside of the top of the brew kettle would sink back down into the wort and it creates dimethyl sulfide, an off flavor that tastes a lot like vegetables, canned green beans, sometimes cream corn. And when AB acquired Rolling Rock and they started producing it elsewhere, not in Latrobe, they had properly vented brew kettles, but Rolling Rock drinkers knew that off flavor as being something that was integral to Rolling Rock. So I've heard, and I don't know that this is true, and I think we're probably in dangerous territory now for me to make the claim that I'm going to make, but they started adding the DMS back in because that's what drinkers thought was part of the flavor profile. I don't know. I believe it, man. Those rolling rock drinkers are probably loyal AF and you need to do what you got to do to keep them happy.

[00:48:54] Jessica Infante: I would love to know the percentage of rolling rock overall that is sold in Delaware County. Is it 90% of it at this point?

[00:49:06] Indeed Brewing: Entirely possible.

[00:49:07] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:49:08] Indeed Brewing: I have an adorable picture of me at my grandmother's 60th birthday party. I'm probably three helping myself to some rolling rock from a keg in our backyard. Real cute. Precious.

[00:49:19] Jessica Infante: You could have been mayor of Easttown.

[00:49:21] Indeed Brewing: I think I'd be a great detective. I really do.

[00:49:24] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:49:24] Indeed Brewing: That's like, I think that's going to be my third act in life is to become a detective or a private investigator.

[00:49:29] Jessica Infante: Well, we will support you in your future endeavors, but we will be happy to have you here in the meantime.

[00:49:37] Indeed Brewing: Definitely here for the duration. That's like my retirement job.

[00:49:40] Jessica Infante: Yes, same here. And let's retire this podcast. That's our show for this week.

[00:49:44] Indeed Brewing: I think that's a great idea.

[00:49:46] Jessica Infante: We went off the rails. Thanks for sticking with us. Thanks again to our one man audio team, Joe, for putting this together. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back soon.