Brewbound Podcast: Stout Collective’s Matt Tanaka on Keeping Beer Branding and Events Fresh in 2025

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Next on The Brewbound Podcast, a conversation with Stout Collective's Matt Tanaka. Hello and welcome to The Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:48] Jessica Infante: I'm Jessica Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:51] Justin Kendall: And this week, as I mentioned, we're going to have a conversation, or Zoe is, with Matt Tanaka from Stout Collective. And I hear 2025 is the year of mascots and maximalism.

[00:01:04] Jessica Infante: Yes. Yeah. Matt shared some predictions for 2025. Matt is the founder and CEO of the Stout Collective, which helps folks with all of Beer Design and marketing needs. And we had a really great chat about both what's happening in that space. And also they run the BOP Beer Design conference that I went to earlier this year. And so how they go about running a beer event and trying to keep it fresh. So it was a really fun conversation and you get to figure out what BOP means. I have been wondering, so yeah, I'm not going to spoil it now. You'll have to listen to the pod.

[00:01:38] Justin Kendall: Yeah, stay tuned for that. Speaking of keeping events fresh, we've got a fresh one coming for you on December 11th and 12th in Marina Del Rey, California. That is Brewbound Live, our annual business conference. We just announced the nominees for our 2024 award winners and rising stars. We've got a whole agenda out there, conversations with Dogfish Head, Russian River, Allagash, Beatbox, New Belgium, a panel full of wholesalers. We've got intoxicating hemp conversations. We've got all kinds of stuff that will get you prepared for 2025. At least I feel like we're getting prepared for 2025.

[00:02:25] Jessica Infante: Yes, we are. We are. And it might even help you beyond 2025 because we know everyone should already be done with their 2025 plans at this point.

[00:02:33] Justin Kendall: Exactly. Very fair. Yes. So it's a future-focused conference. We've got lots of networking. We've got parties. We've got a Pitch Slam competition. You can get your tickets at Brewbound.com. Go over there, get them now. We'll see you in California. Let's get into the news of the week. And really driving that news is Zoe's trip to another conference. Our friends at Beer Marketer Insights held their second meeting of the year. And what are the insights from Beer Marketer Insights?

[00:03:07] Jessica Infante: The insights from insights. Yeah, I traveled to New York for the second time this month, which is always fun. And we talked about a lot in this kind of jam-packed day in the city, heard from some of the heads of Bigger Beer from Constellation, and Anheuser-Busch from Sazerac. And then one of the most interesting conversations to me was there was a presentation in Q&A with Shaun Belongie, who is the CEO of New Belgium now, and he had a lot to say about what innovation really means now, how you can approach innovation as a craft brewery, and all the things they are doing there. We got a sneak peek of some of their 2025 plans, including Mini Ripper, which are those little 7.5 ounce cans. They're going to have a Juice Force and Tropic Force, which are both 9.5% ABV.

[00:04:01] Justin Kendall: How many Mini Ripper did you do in New York City?

[00:04:05] Jessica Infante: I did not do any Mini Ripper. I withheld from any Mini Ripper. But that does bring up the point he made where it's like we purposely did not call this like Little Voodoo Ranger. We made this Mini Ripper because we wanted to be like the action of doing a Mini Ripper basically is what it is. He brought up examples like your Uber's coming in five minutes, let's have a Mini Ripper. Or I like my beer to be cold throughout my whole can, gotta have a Mini Ripper.

[00:04:34] Stout Collective: I'm so glad this is coming out now and not when I was like 25.

[00:04:39] Jessica Infante: When we talked about open beer that New Belgium put some money into, they have the little shotgun thumb mark in those cans. I was like, should they put that in the Mini Ripper? Because I would definitely shotgun a Mini Ripper. No, Zoe, that's like a public health hazard. But they're so cool. They're like little cans and I really appreciate it. And I'm always a fan of mini things. Adorable.

[00:05:00] Justin Kendall: I feel like Jess and I have had this conversation about wanting this for so long, but for other styles.

[00:05:08] Jessica Infante: Not for a 9.5% ABV.

[00:05:11] Stout Collective: Like a nice 4% Hellas. Yes, I am.

[00:05:15] Jessica Infante: Well, you could get the Little Buddy from the folks who is making the Little Buddy. Oh, Hopewell. Hopewell has Little Buddy, which is exactly like that and very cute.

[00:05:24] Justin Kendall: So cute. That's what you were drinking in Nashville, right?

[00:05:27] Jessica Infante: Yes. During the CBC. Yeah, it was perfect. Sean also brought up that they're starting this mostly in grocery. It's coming out in early 2025, but they see potential in the future for this in the on-premise and like those bucket deals as well. It's like a big chance for them. So I thought that was interesting. I hadn't seen really a lot of craft books talking about taking advantage of the on-premise in that package format at all. So you talked about that, and also they're coming out with Light Strike, which is a coconut water-based alcoholic beverage targeting Gen Z, kind of akin to a sports and hydration drink space, but in an alcoholic version. Non-carbonated, 5% ABV in a resealable plastic bottle that looks very similar to maybe like a Prime bottle. so things that other folks in Gen Z, much younger than I am, but still legal drinking age, are consuming. So that is their new Beyond Beer offering that's going to be coming out in the beginning of the year. I have a bottle, I haven't tried it yet, but they gave me one to sample, so I'll let you know what it tastes like.

[00:06:36] Stout Collective: Wow. So I feel like workout drinks change entirely in like the last couple of years? Do you work out? Like do you do the pre-workout and the post-workout and all that stuff? It seems like a lot, just like a lot of different things to drink.

[00:06:50] Jessica Infante: There's too much. And I think I got scarred a little bit by reality TV when this was starting to first become really big. And then all the guys on reality TV were talking about how they had like health screenings all the time because they were consuming way too much protein and those sorts of things. So I think I've been way more hesitant to get into that space. But I am drinking like a Celsius, which they promote as the quote unquote like fitness energy drink, either like half before or half after. So I dabble a little bit, but yeah, the sports drink world is It's interesting. And these are going to be, they're 16.9 ounce bottles. I'm going to be in single flavor, four packs priced between $9.99 and $10.99. And they're going to launch nationally with Kroger. But then after that, it's a bit more of a slower rollout to figure out where these work best. I was not expecting it, but I guess it makes sense. Sean was talking about specifically, they're looking at what Gen Z wants is something that's more sessionable, like the hard seltzer space is quote unquote better for you, but isn't being, he said, quote, aggressive about it. So he said akin to maybe like an Ollie Pop or a Poppy where they, you recognize the brand has some sort of health aspect to it, but it's not screaming it in your face. And they also want something that feels slightly familiar, but also new. So that's why they have this bottle and the hydration drink inspiration that feels familiar, but you're not seeing very many people drinking this essentially flavored salty coconut water in an alcoholic version.

[00:08:28] Justin Kendall: Did they address the sustainability aspect of it at all?

[00:08:32] Jessica Infante: No, they did not. And this is being co-packed right now because they don't even have the capabilities to pack with these bottles. They don't have that line. So it's something they're investing in to have those capabilities. And I'm sure it's New Belgium, they're probably also looking into how you can do this in a more sustainable way. But it wasn't something that was brought up, and I'd be curious to ask Sean about it, if there's any...what the consumer response is to something like that, because we've talked about it before, that there is that hesitancy around plastic bottles, I feel like, for some of Gen Z. But I don't know if that actually shows up in their buying decisions at all. So yeah, so there's a lot out of the event, including Sean's talk that will be up on the site. He also talked about Bells. So there's a little bit on there, some of their on-premise strategy, the stuff happening with Kieran and their Ichabon beer and all their plans for that. So a lot of details out of that conversation.

[00:09:27] Justin Kendall: What about Amber Ales? I heard there was some shade toward Amber Ales.

[00:09:34] Jessica Infante: There was a little bit of shade towards Amber Ales, and I was texting Sterling, who works for Communications for New Belgium and Bells during this, and I was like, I see why they need you around, because he can be a little shady, and so you might need to help him out there. And Sean basically said, you know, Bells and New Belgium were really started as these amber ale breweries. And he said if they were still doing that, they would be in a lot of trouble right now, which is a fair assessment because folks aren't clamoring around for amber ales. He also, later on in the conversation during the Q&A period, was asked about the reformulation for Fat Tire. And he said it did not go well, was his words. And you could see that in the data. But he also said, you know, we had to do something because that brand had been declining for a significant period of time. And we had to make it relevant again. And he said, quote unquote, Amber Ale is not a style that's relevant right now. And so they changed it and they have seen the people, the new consumers that are going to that brand are younger legal drinking age consumers. They are finding connection to it. Their issue is trying to find a balance where those new consumers are counteracting the amount of older consumers that previously liked the brand that have now left it. And they see 2025 as an equilibrium year for that brand and be able to find that math equation that works out best to do that. But it is a tricky, tricky balance when you have those lost households.

[00:11:06] Stout Collective: I appreciate that he admitted it didn't go well. You don't hear that a lot from anybody. So that's refreshing.

[00:11:14] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Yeah, a big theme of his talk was, you know, we're going to make mistakes, but you have to shift. Like, if you're not willing to shift, you are going to die, was what he said. So they're open to trying new things. And we've seen like, there's been other things that haven't gone exceptionally well for them. And like, they had their hard seltzer that wasn't a huge fruit smash. They thought that was going to be the next big thing. So they're trying, they're constantly trying to do new things so they can be at least on top of what's happening.

[00:11:44] Justin Kendall: Hard tea.

[00:11:44] Jessica Infante: Yep. Hard tea. Not quite sure what's up with hard tea. They didn't bring that up at all. But he did acknowledge everything with Voodoo Ranger and how they're not seeing as much incrementality from the newer releases that they've had because they're having some of that cannibalization. He brought up Juice Force was like the biggest, fastest growing new item, but it doesn't have the same incrementality as the previous brands have. And so they're taking a break from new flavor variants in 2025 for Voodoo Ranger, kind of putting it on pause and finding out which ones work best in which markets and which channels and making sure that foundation is strong before they continue to extend that brand that was extended pretty significantly in a very short amount of time.

[00:12:28] Justin Kendall: Yeah, you totally see that with the Force and Tropic Force interaction between those two brands, because it is very clear Tropic Force is eating away at those FruitForce sales.

[00:12:43] Stout Collective: It's kind of like when, I don't know if we've talked about this on the podcast, I know we've talked about it offline, but when Truly was really cranking out new style packs, it's like a little bit of the same thing. Like Lemonade came out and it went so well that they rushed to get Tea out to have something as kind of a space holder. And then they launched Punch. And you could tell that like Tea just never really even took off.

[00:13:07] Jessica Infante: Yeah, there's a lot going on and a lot speaking to similar consumers. He brought up, which I thought was interesting, that some of those flavors also are going to work much better in convenience than they are in grocery, and they haven't really been focused on narrowing down, okay, we should only be doing convenience stores for this one brand. And then this other one is going to be more grocery store based. So there's overlap in consumers, but there's also significant differences in where they're shopping. And they need to cater to that more to have a stronger base with that brand.

[00:13:41] Justin Kendall: Well, as you mentioned, we will have more on this at Brewbound.com. We'll also have more from New Belgium CMO, Rebecca Dai-Yana Shouness at Brewbound Live. We're going to talk about nimble marketing strategies and really taking advantage of the moment and reaching consumers in, I wouldn't say new spaces, but the spaces they're already in. So going to them where they are.

[00:14:08] Jessica Infante: Right. Spaces maybe beer itself hasn't marketed to before, but the consumers are there and ready to Beer Marketer to essentially.

[00:14:15] Justin Kendall: Well, with that, we should get to our featured interview with Matt Tanaka from Stout Collective.

[00:14:24] Jessica Infante: We are here talking about an event that I've talked about on this podcast before, the BOP Beer Design Conference. And here to talk to us about it is Matt Tanaka from the Stout Collective. Welcome, Matt Tanaka for having me, Zoe. Yeah. So as I just mentioned, I talked about the BOP Conference that I went to in Chicago like a month ago now at this point when we were recording this. But for people who aren't aware of it, what is BOP? What are we going to be talking about today?

[00:14:52] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, so BOP is a beer branding conference that we host in Chicago. My branding studio, Stout Collective, which focuses on the beer industry, hosts this event once a year. That's kind of an excuse to bring together a lot of freelancers and designers and art and design folks that we work with, with our clients and friends in the beer industry, and then talk about, like nerd out on brand and design in this very niche-specific space we have for two days.

[00:15:19] Jessica Infante: I got asked this and I was ashamed that I didn't know the answer. Why BOP? What does BOP mean?

[00:15:25] Matt Tanaka: Oh man, we usually start off, like the first thing I usually say on stage is I ask all the designers in the room, like pencil to the grind, like what does BOP mean? And everyone looks at you a little bit blankly, a little embarrassed that they don't know, but it's, it stands for biaxially oriented polypropylene, which is the material, like the backstock material that labels are printed on. There's like paper stock and BOP stock. Frankly, it came because we needed to name this thing, and we had a meeting at our team. We had like 30 minutes where we needed to come up with a name, and our lawyer was like, you need a name right now so we can start doing this thing. And Kevin, our client director, was like, what about Bop? We're like, that sounds great. Let's use that. And then we used that, and that's where we are.

[00:16:06] Jessica Infante: I like it. It's catchy. I knew it was some sort of like designer reference that was just going over my head.

[00:16:13] Matt Tanaka: It feels like bouncy and fun. That's why I like it. You don't have to know what it means to be like Bop. That's cute.

[00:16:18] Jessica Infante: Bouncy and fun, I think, is also a good way to describe what the conference kind of feels like. And we're going to dive into that a little bit. But first, why did you and the Stout Collective want to create a conference at all? Because it's a little unorthodox, I think, for someone like Stout to kind of have an internal industry event.

[00:16:36] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, it's a little crazy, as maybe the other way to put it. I remember when I pitched this to my team, yeah, that was a very kind way to put it. They're like, why the hell are you doing this? Four years ago, when I pitched it to the team, I was like, all right, we want to have, I want to do a, instead of like a beer industry conference about design, what if we did a design conference where the topic is beer and brought all these people together? And the team kind of looked at me like I was a little bit crazy, but here we are. So I think originally it came out of, I could desire to have an opportunity to do a little bit more in depth like programming and conversation around this very specific thing of design and branding specific to our industry. You know, I've been in the beer business for a long time stout has existed for about nine years we go to a lot of industry conferences. And typically at those things, by the time it comes to the marketing programming Beer Design or branding, it has to be pretty broad. And I've spoken at these things. The content needs to, because it needs to work for a very wide variety of people coming from wide experiences. Like it has to work for the brewery owner in X town who's like wearing 25 hats and they want to know like, how do I put a marketing strategy together, but also has to make sense for, you know, a seasoned designer in-house at a brewery. So it's like a really wide range. So it started with us kind of wondering, like, if we brought all these people that we work together with, designers and artists and creatives, as well as the industry folks that we work with all the time, our clients and our friends, in beer into a room to go really in-depth into this thing, would people show up? That's kind of where the craziness came from year one. It's like, all right, we're going to do this thing and see if people come. Thankfully, it sold out every year and people have come. Here we are now three years later.

[00:18:26] Jessica Infante: What is it over that three-year period that you've learned or that you've had to adapt or change? Is there anything that surprised you about running an event that you had to adapt to?

[00:18:38] Matt Tanaka: That last question, if it's what has surprised me, I feel like this is maybe always when you're doing some form of client work like we've done beer events for a long time in many different contexts. When you have to do your own thing that is kind of different like it's not a beer event like you know we throw the hundreds of like beer festivals and tastings and all that kind of thing we have to do something a little bit different it's like you need an opportunity to rethink everything that you kind of just do just because it's the way it's been done. Like having to go from the ground up and say this is how we want to do stuff is really challenging. I think also the most rewarding part in terms of what's evolved over the year, I think the programming has shifted kind of in step with the expectations of work of creatives within the beer space has sort of shifted. So I'd say year one It was pretty design niche-y, like very focused on design. For example, we had a presentation where a designer essentially showed their process in Illustrator, like a really nerdy hands-on design stuff, which was great. It's sort of grown a little bit. This year was a lot more focused on brand and the development of brand with design being one of those tools. And a big part of that is when we work on programming, We do it with a lot of feedback from the community of people who come each year. And we really realized that designers from single freelancers to agencies to in-house teams are like really being leaned on by their clients more to speak to brand as a whole, which is great. I think speaks to the maturing of the industry as well. But from a programming standpoint, we had to kind of ask ourselves internally, okay, if this thing was designed for this reason, like, to have these in-depth conversations, it should talk about RAM as well, which is something we do every day anyway, kind of had a natural evolution over the last three years.

[00:20:33] Jessica Infante: It makes a lot of sense. We, I feel like talk about one of the core things that have been in conversations in specifically craft beer for the past few years for us has been the importance of brand. And like, that's how you're standing out to a lot of consumers now in this very different, very crowded marketplace is your brand and that messaging behind it. So that makes total sense that it would evolve into that because people are really concerned about it and how they can, can really form a, an effective brand and brand messaging.

[00:21:03] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, I mean, I think to that, even the evolution of brand in craft beer, when we first started nine years ago, it was still kind of a dirty word. Like even the idea of marketing was a little bit of a dirty word, where it's like, there was still a pervasive attitude of like, if I invest in strategy or brand Beer Design to this level, then that must mean the beer's not that good. And like, I put my money here instead of There, and I think that attitude has changed a lot for lots of reasons, but one of them being, yeah, it's gotten a lot more competitive. And the breweries that are doing well are the ones that are resonating with people because they actually understand who they are, what they're trying to say, and then aligning their look and how they show up in events and how they do hospitality, like all of those things to that brand. I think it's a good thing, but it also is born out of like, you can't really just put beer out and then people buy it anymore.

[00:21:56] Jessica Infante: Right. Yeah. It's, it's, that's so funny. I didn't even think about that either of like the, the old perceptions of investing in that, because now I feel like from a consumer standpoint, it almost appears like you have a higher quality product if you are more investing in those things. So it's completely flipped.

[00:22:16] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, I think consumers or breweries have sort of caught up with paying attention to consumers more for that because I think in every other category, that's the expectation. Like you align with the brand because it speaks to your values or you think it's interesting or cool or fun or whatever it is. And then beer, we kind of had this like precious protection over it, a little bit of like, I do what I do because that's what I want to do and I don't care if anybody they're not going to change what I do. I think now we've realized that those things are not they're not the antithesis of each other like those things are connected.

[00:22:52] Jessica Infante: Getting back to Bob, We, in our conversations, have talked about how it's hard to get people to go to events now, especially in this kind of post-pandemic time. People, going to events costs money and it costs time and maybe people want to spend their time on other priorities, just like keeping their business running. So what have you, are there any things that you have found really can draw people? Like what does it take to, you said you've sold out all three years, so what is it that is bringing people to BOP and feeling like it's worth that investment?

[00:23:27] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, we spent a lot of time thinking about this. I feel like the like soundbite takeaway is know your audience really well, like know what value they get out of it. So for us, There's sort of like three groups of people that come to BOP primarily. It's like freelancers, people who are on their own doing work at sort of any stage in their career but are overlapping with the beer industry. So usually that means they've got like a brewery client that they do a ton of stuff for or in that world or want to be in that world. The second bucket is small agencies, similar types of clients, but small agencies generally focused on OutBev or CPG with a little overlap in beer. Then the last audience are in-house design teams at these breweries. We think a lot about what this audience wants because We know it's a lot to ask somebody to, especially now, as you said, buy a ticket, buy a flight, buy hotels, carve out two days or three days worth of time from their own work to like come to this thing. So we feel a lot of pressure to make sure it is worth it for them, like that it's sort of a full. experience. And so we do that by knowing what those groups are, sort of understanding what it is that they could get out of this, like value they take away from this, and then apply it to themselves. And then for us, there's like three buckets of value that we want people to take away from BOP. The first one is inspiration. We want people to come and feel just stoked, like really excited about other people's work or people that they've admired from a distance or just like when you're in a creative field, just getting that unblock can sometimes happen just by being in a place that you feel fired up about what you do. The second bucket was craft. We wanted to give people in these different roles like sort of in-depth things to help develop that craft. So whether that's a workshop on design or on brand strategy, just actual tools they can take away and apply to their own work. And then third one is business development. So this applies to freelancers, agencies, and I think in-house teams, just like how do we talk about the work? It's like, how can we better help our clients? Or how can we like talk about what we do better for our clients? It's like, it really should feel like when you came to Bob, you didn't just sit in a thing to listen to some speakers, but that you had these three buckets of things that we know benefit the work you do because that's us too, like that's the work we do. So I guess the takeaway is like what are things that hosts can take into my account. It's just like really really know your audience and then plan content and experience and make sure you're making decisions that serve them, like respecting that they did spend the money and the time to come to come see you.

[00:26:12] Jessica Infante: Something also interesting you do in your programming is it's Beer Design and designers conference, but you don't have just beer folks on stage. Like there's folks from all across design, all across CPG. Why is that something that you wanted to do?

[00:26:27] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, it's funny because that wasn't necessarily a conscious decision. It wasn't like we said, we need to look outside of theater to apply to CPG and bring back experience. It really first came from our content planning. It's like we, that's probably where we spend the most time in anything we do for BOP is like the content planning. And it starts by, we identify a bunch of topics that we want to hear from or people that we want to hear from that we think have a unique perspective and then we make this list and then I just start calling people because I also know that not every speaker is a good fit for bot because the ask is actually pretty high like one you have to travel and come here it's only in person on purpose two we're asking you to go like really in depth into the thing and then also be really vulnerable and tell us the things that were bad or didn't work or where you failed And then also answer like a million questions from a very participatory audience like that's a lot to ask. So, when we approach content this year some of the topics we just, it was less about somebody in beer or not in beer, it was more, who can speak into this thing that will benefit the people that are coming the most. I'll give you an example with Angie at Tomato Baby, which I know you wrote a piece about. Angie is incredible from outside of beer, but it started because we kept hearing, I think we all hear a lot of opinions about Gen Z and how they relate to alcohol, and a lot of it felt pretty anecdotal to us. And we also found ourselves, when we were talking to our clients, we kept coming to these questions, and I had to say, okay, is this an opinion we have because it's how we feel? Or is this an opinion we have because there's some sort of truth to it or some sort of research? So we knew we wanted to address that question for people. What's the relationship of Gen Z to brand and alcohol? So that was like, okay, who could speak into this really well? And then when we talked to Angie, who runs a one-woman research studio called Tomato Baby, we asked her, okay, we're going to give you this prompt. treat it like you do with your clients and then report back a couple things like what are some big takeaways that we can use to specifically understand this relationship and you were there it was bananas.

[00:28:46] Jessica Infante: Yeah it was so good it was one of my favorites and it was I have sat through a lot of like understanding Gen Z conversations there's one at almost every conference I go to and this one felt totally different because it was like it kind of she dove into what is the reasoning behind some of these like trends that we associate with Gen Z like what is it actually speaking to and then how is that showing up in CPG and she gave lots of brand examples and it was Definitely refreshing because there's been plenty of conversations being like, yeah, Gen Z, they're not drinking and they like care about causes, but they're also, I don't know, they're lazy sometimes. Like there's there was all these stereotypes about Gen Z that are just repeated over and over again. And this one felt like, OK, here's some actual consumer things that speak to Gen Z. And so, yeah, that was great.

[00:29:43] Matt Tanaka: Oh, that stuff is like not actually that helpful. It's just that's kind of like sitting in a circle complaining like, why doesn't Gen Z like beer?

[00:29:49] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:29:49] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, exactly. I actually think that also to Slick Wines, it was on one of our panels towards the end. Her name is Marie. She runs Slick Wines, which is a wine consultancy based here in Chicago. And we had a good conversation in our contemplating, it was a different panel, but about the same topic. And her perspective was like, in the wine industry, we have this problem where we kind of all sit around and complain to each other, like, why doesn't Gen Z like wine? And she has this song talk about, well, what are we doing to talk to Gen Z? Like, we are just being who we are in our own little spaces and then complain that maybe we don't connect. So maybe it's worth, instead of having the stereotype about a generation, instead, like, get to know them and show up in the spaces that they are. Maybe it's not a them problem. Maybe it's an us problem. I think the tomato baby talk was like a real good hard look in the mirror, like, oh, yeah. I do that. We should be better.

[00:30:44] Jessica Infante: Yeah, it's definitely. I think beer is starting to have some of those conversations we've heard recently of there's been a lot of themes of like, all right, we need to start showing up in the places that consumers already exist. And so yeah, that definitely spoke to that. You're having these great conversations on stage. There's a mix of presentations and panel discussions. You mentioned they go pretty in-depth. These are long conversations that people are having, so it's even more in-depth than most conferences. But what else is it about BOP that makes it... Is there something you can pinpoint that makes it feel different than these other ones? Or is it just kind of the atmosphere of a Beer Design conference?

[00:31:24] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, I think there is. I'm also obviously a little biased. I'm very close to it. But we spend a lot of time talking to people before and after, too, about what they like about it. And I think there's a community aspect to it that is very real and also authentic is such an overused word. Authentic. It's like not something we created. It was like we put this thing together that would really interest us and we think could interest other people. And then people started coming. I think it shows up. very well in what we have to prep our speakers for at the very beginning of our planning. So when we book a speaker, we start very far in advance. And then about six months in advance, we start talking about the topic, like one-on-one on a call. And I said, look, I'm going to tell you about the audience at this thing. Because before you say yes, there's kind of a lot. in it. Like they have really high expectations of you. They want you to get really in depth and be honest with stuff I talked about. They're also going to ask you a million questions and some of them are going to be very direct and from a very big, like a strong place of knowledge. These are not just like general questions. It's like really specific. It's kind of like the audience expects the speakers to like really know their shit, which I think has created this really cool community of it. The other part of it though, I think is we ask our speakers and they always want to do this. Like we've been really lucky with who we have be there, but they don't just speak and leave. Like they are part of the audience. So oftentimes you'll see our keynote speakers from day one, sitting there on day two, asking questions of the speakers on day two. And as a result, it really is a community of people that are talking. I think the last part of it, I can trace back to the very first presentation from the very first Bob, which was about rebranding of Fat Tire, one rebrand to go. It was based on this sort of thing that we have with our speakers. We call it, we want a no client in the room mentality, which essentially means like we don't record anything. We don't broadcast it. It's in person on purpose so that it's just in that moment between these people having a conversation. And in return, we ask them to get really vulnerable, like show us the tough stuff. And speakers have shown us. like really honest about what got hard and where we get stuck with clients and how to get past it and all of that stuff. And the very first presentation year one was like a brutally honest look at how hard it is to rebrand a big property that has a lot of brand equity and love for a lot of people. And I honestly think that set the tone for everything moving forward. And every year we have a really strong group of people that come each year. We have a big group of people that come all three years. So I think it's so cheesy to say, but I think the community aspect of it is really true about what makes POP feel special because you can really feel that energy when you walk into the room. It's exciting.

[00:34:33] Jessica Infante: Yeah it was definitely cool. I mean I remember at my table there's folks all like no one really knew each other yet but they're all introducing themselves and like we're all just super energized about it. People are taking notes the whole time like it it was really cool vibe. And then you also have some other stuff going on like there was like the sticker like vending machine and the there's like the the big like board everyone can draw on and stuff like there's other things happening too that just the um like your guys create a zine which was i have a like i don't want to throw that away that's very cool but there's so much in that that just i think added to the vibe of everything You mentioned in your opening speech at the event that it's not like you guys are making money off of this thing. It's honestly probably potentially losing money. So what makes you want to continue to do it? Why is it still important to have this? Because this is not a profit-driving machine just as an event. This is something you guys are putting on because you want to be putting it on.

[00:35:37] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, it's quite honestly a really good profit-losing machine, if I'm being really honest about it. But there are plenty of reasons why we do it outside of that. It's funny because if you ask me this question, so the conference is in mid-September, if you ask me this in late August, then I would probably have a completely different answer. Like, I don't know why we do this. It's so hard. It's so much fresher to do it right. The day after BOP we're like so pumped up and feel so like much love around this thing. I think there's lots of reasons why we do it. I think one of the key reasons is that community is really important to us, even from like a business standpoint, even from how Stout works. So Stout is a branding and design studio. We're relatively small, but we specifically work with the beer industry. So because of that, we say what we like to say is we don't want to have a studio style. We don't want to have a brewery come to us because they want to look a certain way. Our job is to get really a really strong understanding of what their current brand is or help them build a brand that's really strong. It can stand on its own legs and stand the test of time. So like it's really important to us that we know this community of people like we work with. These are like artists that we work with. They're designers that we collaborate with. And then the other part is the speakers that we bring in, they're friends of ours, sometimes they're clients of ours. They're also just like people we want to learn from. We have two types of debriefs after Bob internally. We have the debrief about the event. What did we learn? What can we do better? That kind of stuff. But then we also have just like a content debrief where we just say, what did we specifically learn for us? Not about the event, but what did we take away that affects our creative process? And we learn a lot. And we, every year, I feel like there's some big thing that we're kind of like rethinking because of conversations we had at BOP. And it ends up being a really strong time of inspiration and connection for us too, which makes it worth it for us.

[00:37:35] Jessica Infante: Can you give us any tidbit on what that takeaway was this year? Or is it trade secrets?

[00:37:42] Matt Tanaka: I'm not very good at trade secrets, I'll be honest. I'm a little bit of an open book. Yeah, so there's been a couple of things. I think one of the big takeaways for me actually came from a combination of three different talks. So a combination of Jeremy Taylor talking about Firestone and Native Fire, and then Benny talking about Crowns and Hops, and then the Ouroboros team talking about Ouroboros. Three like very separate presentations, but I think one thing that all three of them had in common was just how good they were at talking about brand in an inspiring and exciting way. Their actual brands are dramatically different from each other, but very clear both from the outside and from when you watch an hour of them talking about it, very clear that it's like wrestled over and thought about and like very everything they do is really intentional. So all three of them did a really great job of talking about why. And so it's kind of made us think about that's the main thing that we spend time talking about. We talk about this all the time. How can we help our clients better understand brand strategy and then how can we be better at building that with them? The Oura Bora one specifically, I think, when you ask them to talk about what brand, how brand strategy works, they're saying things that lots of brands, like that's brand strategy that lots of brands have used, but they do it in such a refreshing and unique way that is so memorable. Like you can think, that was over a month ago and I can still, I feel like, recite half of it about like lore and religion and backstory and brands with soul, all that stuff, it's just so inspiring. So one thing we're working on, Internally, it's like, how do we keep bringing that to our clients when we're talking about brand? How do we help them get really stoked about it, but also understand the importance of it and how committing to an idea that's actually based on who you really are is better than just saying, we are an authentic brand that makes great beer, because you need to have a little bit more depth than that. There's a lot of other ones. I think that's probably the main takeaway right now.

[00:39:38] Jessica Infante: I wanted to make sure we also touched on Stout itself a little bit because you're not just doing this event. Like you said, Stout Collective is a company working with with beer folks all year round. I like to give people the podcast as a platform to sometimes to maybe not air grievances, but be like, hey, how can you best work with us? because I know we try to preach that from the media side all the time of how you can best work with us on media. Is there any qualities or anything that people should know of how they can be the best partners for folks like Stout?

[00:40:13] Matt Tanaka: I'm so glad you asked that. Beer Design and studio wants to be asked this question, I feel like. I also say the airing of grievances is really wonderful and really funny. Internally we have like a joke that we call craft beef or like anytime there's some sort of like industry gossip that's the craft beef category so that'll be our podcast one day. But no in terms of what's the thing I would want a brewery or a brand to be to take away in working with creatives it's like to get the best thing that you can do is write better briefs. I just get like really good at explaining what you're doing or showing your creative vision. It's something we talk a lot about with our clients and it can take lots of form. It's almost like the framework for what a brief is doesn't really matter so much, but the best way to get really wonderful work out of any designer or creative team is to look really, really good at getting them on board with your vision and then trusting that they will get it and help you build it. There's sort of like a little bit of tension between like bringing your vision and then also trusting that the team is going to take you on this journey to get to That vision, there's a couple of ways that works for us, but we ask clients to really focus on four main things when they're coming in to initial conversations. The first is, what are you trying to accomplish? So, like, what's the objective for the why? What are you actually trying to do? So, an example might be, okay, maybe the project is we need to rebrand our brewery, but What are you trying to do or why is different than that's like are you trying to rebrand it because it feels stale to you or is it because it doesn't reflect who you are you've changed a lot of the visuals don't really align with the type of brand you are it's like first start by understanding what are you actually trying to accomplish. The next one is who is it for, which we've talked about already quite a bit pretty naturally, but it's like really understand who your audience was. Somebody at CVC said this once, and I won't credit them because I cannot remember who it is, which is really embarrassing, so I'm sorry to ever said this, but they're talking about audience and they said that we sometimes have a tendency to think about our audience as anybody with a mouth. But in reality, if you're trying to talk to everybody, you're not going to connect with anybody. So it's like getting to understand who are you actually talking to for you, and then treat the little ripples that go out to the wider people who purchase your product. So for these kinds of projects, it's like, all right, if you're going to design a new beer line, for example, is it for your biggest fans? Is it for the taproom regulars? Or is it for somebody who's never heard of your brand? Or is it for the Voodoo Ranger drinker? Who is it for first? The next one is, what are you saying? So if you know what you're doing, you know who you're talking to, what do you want to say to them? Like what perception do you want them to have of you? What perception would you want to change for you? What are you actually trying to say with the project you're doing? So those are the three questions and then the last one is just like what inspires you? Like it could be visual references, it could be songs or bands or movies or culture, like climbing a mountain. And the idea is not, I want my brewery to look like mountain climbing. The idea is like, these are the things that bring me life or like our partners or the people working on this project life. These are what inspire us. And then if you can take all of these things and give like a really good creative vision to the right team, and you have a team that you can trust to get in like really in the weeds with you on it, that will create the best work.

[00:43:47] Jessica Infante: I mean, it really is a partnership because they're trusting you with their brand, but you're also like, there's a lot of collaboration to do anything like this. So you need to make sure you're on the same basis with everything and being as detailed as possible about expectations on both sides is really important. Are there any misconceptions or anything that folks might have about working with people like Stoud? Any myths you need to bust while we're here?

[00:44:16] Matt Tanaka: I think maybe that it's magic, that design is magic, but it's like, the other version of that is like, it's fast, it's good and it's cheap. Like there's, I think sometimes can be a misconception of like, we'll give it to them and they're just going to create something magic. But it is, like you just said, a partnership. Like it really, a really good creative project means that you are invested in it and the team is invested in it and you're trusting each other and like trying stuff. I think maybe on the other side, there can be an apprehension to start a project like this for the opposite reason, that like, it might not be like, it'll just look like everything else. Or like, if I'm not prepared enough to go through this, then I can't get started. So I should never get started. But I think that's where a really good creative team comes like any, any good, like, agency or designer or freelancer that you get that gets you is going to be able to take you through this kind of process. Yeah there is sometimes an assumption that like genius creative ideas come out of nowhere they just come out of the ether and sometimes they do but it's I think it's more of a combination of like Sometimes we say good creative ideas are a combination of preparation and experimentation. It comes from the practice of doing something, so understanding what you're doing, understanding what you are, doing it over and over again, or the practice of design. or brand strategy, and then experimentation is like that preparation combined with just like trying stuff and seeing how they fit and exploring into the ether and sitting in a room and staring out the window, but it's gotta be both. It can't just be like, all right, we need a logo, we need it next week, and poof, it's there.

[00:46:04] Jessica Infante: It's like R&D for creating a beer. You have all your technical skills, but you got to experiment and see some things might not work, you think they will and vice versa.

[00:46:14] Matt Tanaka: That's a great example. Can I use that? I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.

[00:46:16] Jessica Infante: Go for it, please. Go for it. I also wanted to get, while I have you, I mean we're getting to the end of 2024, about to start 2025. Any sort of trends, it can be as niche as you want or not or kind of general, but anything we you think we should see in 2025 or gonna see in 2025 when it comes to like design and branding?

[00:46:38] Matt Tanaka: Yeah, I get asked this a lot, as you might expect. I feel like the answer shifts a lot every year. Right now, my answer is mascots and maximalism. I think these are the two things we're going to see a lot more of. From a pure design in the beer world space, like all things, there are waves. I feel like in the 2010s, we saw a lot of comic books and like cartoon art and like really loud, busy labels with not a lot of structure into them. And then as a direct reaction to that, we started to see lots of like extreme minimalism, like label sets where every beer is exactly the same layout, but maybe the color changes or it's like really tight and minimalist, a little bit more elegant. I think we're about to see kind of a backlash against that too into maximalism. I think this aligns a little bit with CPG trends in general and some of the things like younger millennials and Gen Z like LDA Gen Z are already starting to bring in brands they're creating and they're aligning with. It's like We're a little bit tired of boring, I think. And this, like right now as consumers, we are really used to being brand marketed to. Like every brand is a brand. Nothing is just a product anymore. So I think we're looking for like a little bit more fun. Meredith, who's our brand director, likes to say that she thinks there's like a wave of anti-brand that's coming a little bit. Like an argument for brands that have such a strong hold on what they are or how they speak or what matters to them internally. Externally, it looks all over the place. It's like really wild from a design standpoint. It pulls from a bunch of different references and looks like lots of different things, but they get away with it because they are so clear about what they're doing or who they are, what they're speaking. Or just we're going to see a backlash to that, like the millennial minimalism of boringness and just like, we just want something loud and crazy and fun.

[00:48:38] Jessica Infante: Well, I'm excited to see what folks get up to. It's always cool. Well, thank you, Matt. Anything else you want people to know about you, about Stout, about BOP, anything at all to plug?

[00:48:50] Matt Tanaka: I don't think I have anything to plug except for that creative brief thing. I feel like one of the, I think this goes back a little bit to why we do BOP. It's like, we feel like we all learn best when we share with each other. We're all going to get better if we're all pretty open about what we do. And so if I can help us for people that work with us, if I can help future clients of ours or others or like other agencies, it's just like, a plea for better briefs. Get really good at understanding what you want out of a project and then trust that the team's going to help you get there. It's going to be hard while you go through it. If it is too easy, that probably means you're not challenging yourself enough. It'll be hard, but if you are able to give a really clear vision of what you're going to do, you're going to get some great stuff out of it. I think it's going to really help as brands enter another wild phase for whatever the hell is next in the beer world.

[00:49:45] Jessica Infante: We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Thank you, Matt. I really appreciate it. And that's our show this week. Thank you to Joe and the rest of our team who make us sound listenable. Thank you to Jess and Justin for making the rest of Brew Brown work smoothly. And we'll be back next week.