Brewbound Podcast: Russian River’s Natalie Cilurzo and Oak Park Brewing’s Rodg Little Live from the CCBA Summit

[00:00:11] Jessica Infante: Hello, and welcome to The Brewbound podcast. My name is Justin Kendall, and I am the editor The Brewbound. And I am joined by Jessica Infante, the managing editor The Brewbound, who is back in Salem. What's up, Jess?

[00:00:22] Dogfish Heads: Nothing. How are you?

[00:00:24] Jessica Infante: Doing well. And also joining us this week, as always, Brewbound reporter extraordinaire, Zoe Licata. How you doing, Zoe?

[00:00:32] Sam Calagione: I am doing swell. Glad to be here.

[00:00:35] Jessica Infante: Yeah, it's good to see you both. Unfortunately, we're not in the same place anymore, but you work with what you got.

[00:00:42] Athletic Brewings: We do our best.

[00:00:44] Jessica Infante: Yeah, well, and I'm happy to be back home. So, you know, it's nice to be home after a week on the road. You're going to hear all about that later on this episode. We've got two conversations with folks that we interviewed during the California Craft Beer Summit in Sacramento. Jess and Zoe are going to catch up with Natalie Cilurzo from Russian River, all about the Pliny the Younger release and so much more. And then Jess and I are going to catch up with Rodg Little from Oak Park Brewing. So stay tuned for those conversations. And we're going to hit the road again, not in April, but in May for the craft brewers conference, we're going to do our brew talks event, Sunday, May 7, 2 to 5pm central time. And we've got two panels set up for that. And Zoe and I are going to be the ones handling both of those first conversation. We're gonna talk about high and low, and basically no when we talk about low, alcohol. Those are the growth drivers in craft right now, and we're gonna be joined by Dogfish Heads, Sam Calagione, Athletic Brewings, Bill Shufelt, and Greater Good Imperial Brewing Companies, Colleen Quinn. That's one of the conversations, and then we have a second one on how to open up a multi-state taproom, and what are the strategies that go into that? We'll be joined by Monday Night's Jeff Heck, High Wire Brewing's Adam Charnick and Weathered Souls Brewing Company's Marcus Baskerville. And finally, we're going to catch up with the National Black Brewers Association. So stay tuned for more on that. But now that we've had some time to be back home, what were your impressions from the California Craft Brewers Association's meeting? And I'll start with you, Jess.

[00:02:28] Dogfish Heads: So during the happy hour, you know, the BA's Bart Watson asked us, what was the one thing that we were surprised to learn? And I feel like I didn't really have an answer before somebody came in as though we were at like a bachelor cocktail party ahead of a rose ceremony and stole them from us. But my answer is that the California legislature is crazy small. There's like 120 members, 40 senators, 80 assembly people for a state as big as California. That to me seems tiny, but I learned that hanging out with Director Lori Ajax and their lobbyist, Chris Walker, at their legislative session where they talked about bills that they're watching for this year, which I believe we talked about last week. But yeah, overall good time. Everybody seemed to be in good spirits, happy to see each other. A lot came out that we can get into about, you know, what is craft and what are craft brewers and how do we attract an audience. But yeah, high level, that's my take. What about you, Zoe?

[00:03:24] Sam Calagione: Yeah, I would say it was just, I think, especially as some of the 2022 numbers and early 23 numbers have come in, it's been a little bit of a downer for craft lately. So it was nice to be in a more positive environment for craft. And we had talked to a couple of the CCBA board members who said they were debating whether to even have the summit this year. and it turned out to be a really good thing that they did because these breweries were just excited to be around other craft people again and share some more positive stories in a time that's a little bit more negative.

[00:04:00] Jessica Infante: I'd heard that too and I'm very glad that they did the summit this year because just for us to be able to connect with so many people, see so many faces that we'd seen before, meet a lot of new folks, I feel like that was really important and it just kind of felt good to just be back out on the road and be seen.

[00:04:20] Dogfish Heads: Always good to be among the people.

[00:04:23] Jessica Infante: The other thing, and you two are going to hit on it in your conversation with Natalie, is really the decline of sour production. I think that's something I'm going to ask you both about later and we'll get into, but Russian River shifting a lot of that dedicated sour space to become more of lager tanks. I think that's super interesting and something I want to know more about.

[00:04:51] Sam Calagione: Yeah, really interesting conversation with Natalie that everyone will hear in a second here, but I'm a little sad about it because I have always been a bit of a sour fan. That's how I entered into craft really was going to breweries that had some of these barrel aged sour options. But I'm also really excited for Russian River's Lagerhaus, because that's another style of beer that I think my generation is more into, of those lighter styles. But it's a trend that we should keep an eye out for, because it's not the first time that we've heard people are shying away from the barrel-aged sours.

[00:05:28] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, I am with you. Those are my two favorite styles. So I am torn on this. I am bummed because Russian River makes some fantastic barrel-aged sours, but excited to see what they can do with lager production. But they're definitely not alone in moving away from that, which I get. Those beers take a long time to make. They take up a lot of space. I understand and the way consumers are trending, there are so many kettle sours out there that if you're a newer consumer to craft and that's how you got in, not to say you couldn't be traded up to barrel-aged sours, but do you know why they're different, how they're different? Do you care? But I will take a Flanders Red all day, every day. So I'm a little bummed.

[00:06:11] Jessica Infante: Well, more to come on that, and let's get into some of the news. One of the big news stories of the last week, and that was New Belgium is taking over Constellation Brands production facility in Daleville, Virginia, and they're going to be able to pump out a whole lot more of Voodoo Ranger, specifically Juice Force and Fruit Force. And a lot of ready to drink can cocktails and hard seltzers. And I think this is fairly interesting because the lion's share of production at that facility had been those alternative alcoholic beverage brands beyond beer products, whatever you want to call that. And. New Belgium had been producing, as we saw in the can, wild nectar, that new hard juice that they just put out at Octopi Brewing. And the label approvals for Voodoo Ranger hard tea were coming from Citi, so they were doing some contract production in Wisconsin.

[00:07:07] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, well, I mean, when you think about it, this brewery is the house that Ballast Point built. Constellation Brands built it in 2017 back when they still owned Ballast Point, but as we all know what happened there, production really took a nosedive. So they have this big facility and then what else are they going to do with it because all their Mexican brands have to come from Mexico. So good to see that Fresca Mix will still have a home somewhere on the East Coast. I look forward to trying it perhaps one day. But yeah, production capacity on here in New Belgium told us that this will be adding 125,000 barrels of beer for them. There was a number given test about what it could do for beyond beer products, but then that number was walked back. So I don't want to quantify that at all, but safe to say this building can turn out a lot of FMBs, RTDs, and all sorts of other things. So we'll see what happens.

[00:07:59] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and that's one of the pieces of this story that is interesting is, yeah, they're buying this facility from Constellation Brands, but they have a multi-year agreement with Constellation Brands to continue producing some of those products like Fresca Mixed at that facility. So a lot of money exchanging hands and then going back into the other hands, as it will.

[00:08:20] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, very complicated, very hermit crabby. No tap room, I'd say. I did see some chatter on Twitter saying, oh cool, a New Belgium tap room. I am sorry, residents of the Commonwealth of Virginia, you are not getting a New Belgium tap room. But it's only a couple hours drive to their Asheville, North Carolina brewery. So hit that up.

[00:08:37] Jessica Infante: Yeah, pretty wild that New Belgium has production capacity that they can utilize on the East Coast. They have the two breweries now or will have once the steel closed. Then they can go up to Michigan to Bells and produce there. And then they have their Colorado production facility. And, you know, does this satiate all the production needs that they have. You know, we saw that story that came out, I think it was Reuters, that it said Kieran was on the hunt for more production space. I would think that this probably does it. And pretty wild to me that the two brewers that they're going to produce there are new to this world.

[00:09:17] Athletic Brewings: Yeah.

[00:09:17] Jessica Infante: Only produced the last two years, or at least that's, you know, the ones they say that they're going to produce the most out there.

[00:09:23] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised if they hit the ceiling, not all that far into the future. So we'll see what happens. One shout out on this story. I don't know if you guys saw Kate Brunat's story about it, but her lead was, it's a bones day at New Belgium, which shout out to our dear departed friend, Noodle, the pug from TikTok.

[00:09:43] Sam Calagione: Also a lovely update on that. The owner of Lovely Bones is now fostering two pug puppies.

[00:09:51] Athletic Brewings: Yeah, and their names are Macaroni and Rigatoni. Yes. Isn't that so cute? Yes.

[00:09:57] Jessica Infante: Yes.

[00:09:58] Athletic Brewings: So positive dog notes out there. Positive dog news.

[00:10:02] Jessica Infante: That's definitely a bone stay then.

[00:10:05] Dogfish Heads: Yeah. Bones Day for New Beltham. I think they're all bones days.

[00:10:08] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, other bones days or no bones days. Let's get into that. It is a lot of rumors last week while we were in California that Heineken might be buying Boston Beer. But there was a lot of eyebrow raises and a lot of side eye to some of these reports and analyst speculation, I should say.

[00:10:31] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, I would side-eye the shit out of this. Like, I'm sorry, this is not going to happen. Like, this is basically the fetch of the financial world. As long as Jim Cook is alive and well, Boston Beer is not going to be sold to Heineken of all places. Like, maybe I just have too many thoughts and feelings about this, but that was kind of like almost enemy number one back in the 80s, talking about old and tired imported beer.

[00:10:57] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And this is a change too, from the normal rumor structure, which is Heineken's going to buy Molson Coors.

[00:11:03] Dogfish Heads: Yeah. Which I also don't think is going to happen. I mean, I think maybe we've been through that rumor mill before, before my time, but I get why Boston Beer is an attractive target for acquisition. Twisted Tea, absolutely on fire. But here's the thing. A lot of stuff comes along with that Twisted Tea that you might not also want.

[00:11:22] Sam Calagione: Yeah, and there was a Jefferies report that Mark Howden did, and he brought up that Heineken's US, they're trying to turn around their US presence anyway, and doing something like taking on a bunch of these brands that are struggling already a little bit in the market isn't going to do what they want to do. They're focusing on brands such as more import style beers that can actually have some momentum now. and on like Heineken Zero, like those non-alcoholic beers. And I think what was the other one? Lagunitas, like IPA, like things that are more in with trends, that are doing okay, that they can help turn the market around, that they aren't going to have to try to figure out how to bring back to life.

[00:12:04] Dogfish Heads: Yeah. Like Heineken, you need a cutting edge, super innovative, super buzzy fourth category beyond beer option. You know, that's fairly unencumbered by a bunch of other legacy brands. Like say, like perhaps like, I don't know, a beat box. Maybe check that out.

[00:12:21] Jessica Infante: I think they probably have to be quite honest with you. There's always some smoke to some of this, but it's always like, Hmm, I don't know about that one. We'll find out. And then Anheuser-Busch is moving neutral. It's a vodka soda and cut water to RNDC in Southern California. They won't be through the AB1 branch there. So that's going on.

[00:12:48] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, both spirits based. That's what RNDC does best. So we'll see what happens. Numbers on neutral lately have been super impressive.

[00:12:59] Jessica Infante: And I guess late breaking news for us is Bart Watson's production data that Zoe's been citing. We're going to finally get those hard numbers on April 11th. There's going to be a press conference then, so stay tuned for that. Before we get out of here, should we plan Another Round of Another Round for Tabbing Out?

[00:13:19] Dogfish Heads: Yes, let's do it.

[00:13:21] Jessica Infante: So as we talked about a little bit ago, a lot of crap brewers are shifting away from sour production. How are we feeling about crappers moving away from sour production? Do you think this opens up an opportunity for some or does this sort of shut the door on the style for now?

[00:13:42] Dogfish Heads: This is tough. I mean, personally, I am Tabbing Out on the idea of stopping making them. That's like a double negative, isn't it? I really like these styles. I think they really can kind of help speak to consumers that are more into wine, which are generally kind of a hard sell. But as we've heard other people say, you can do that pretty easily with some kettle sours too.

[00:14:09] Sam Calagione: Yeah, I would say, I guess would it be Another Round of cutting them, but it makes total sense to me. And in a time where craft breweries are having to focus on cost and time so much right now, it just, if you can speak to the same consumer with Another Round that takes up less time and space, you might as well do it right now.

[00:14:30] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Yeah. I think it might be an opportunity for some as you see more people get out, but Definitely speaks to where the market is now and where the consumer is. So that's a tough one.

[00:14:42] Dogfish Heads: If you want to buy some barrels, I'm sure there's plenty out there right now.

[00:14:46] Jessica Infante: I mean, Anheuser-Busch just shut down platforms, Funkenship. Yeah. Speaking of Anheuser-Busch, they're getting into the entertainment business. How do you feel about possibly in August the third movie or, you know, the story of how Anheuser-Busch was formed or maybe a merger movie?

[00:15:08] Sam Calagione: Um, please close my tab. I don't want any participation in this. I'm going to move on to another bar.

[00:15:15] Jessica Infante: But there's a Nike movie coming out. Come on.

[00:15:18] Sam Calagione: I also don't care for a Nike movie. Maybe give me one documentary or something cool. But these kind of things feel weird to me, and this might be my own personal qualm with some things, but it's just a giant advertisement. There are so many ways you can speak to a consumer in a more succinct way that I don't really care for your entertainment media. I don't want to see you just spill out millions of dollars. donate that somewhere. And I just feel I feel weird about it. Spoken like a true zoomer Zoe. Yeah, sorry.

[00:15:54] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, I I don't know, man, I'm kind of with you and my tab is closed and I'm already in a lift to go home. However, I read dethroning the king and I will lend it to you the next time I see you. And remember thinking like, wow, I would watch a movie about this. However, that's not the kind of movie that's coming out of Anheuser-Busch's production studio. Right. The other thing here is that, like, they've got money. You know, they can afford to pay the video production people that they need to work on these things. So, you know, knowing a lot of people who work in that field, I guess this is a plus for them.

[00:16:32] Sam Calagione: Supporting many Emerson College alums. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:16:37] Jessica Infante: Well, let's get to our lightning round question and that is Budweiser brew pub style appetizers. I got an advertisement for it. Do you want Another Round of this or Tabbing Out or would you eat this?

[00:16:52] Sam Calagione: Give me Another Round if I've already had several rounds. This is where I'm making the poor decision after too many beers to try some brew pub style reheated apps.

[00:17:04] Dogfish Heads: One of my favorite things to do is be a little tipsy and just put stuff in my air fryer and see what happens. So I am here for this, but I have the palate of a drunk raccoon.

[00:17:15] Jessica Infante: Shout out to Mojo's in Sacramento, though, for making those.

[00:17:19] Athletic Brewings: Oh, my God, those were so good.

[00:17:21] Jessica Infante: They were so excellent. So I would eat those. But these, I have a feeling after having Mojo's, I feel like you can't go back. So with that, let's get to our featured interviews with Russian River, Natalie Cilurzo and Oak Park Brewing's Raj Little.

[00:17:41] Dogfish Heads: So we are thrilled to be here in The Brewbound studio at the CCBA Summit with none other than the one and only Natalie Cilurzo from Russian River Brewing. Natalie, how are you?

[00:17:51] Bill Shufelt: Hi, thank you so much for having me and welcome to California. Sunny California. Not so sunny today. Not so much.

[00:17:59] Dogfish Heads: No, I mean, at least we can't hear the rain falling on the convention center roof down here.

[00:18:03] Bill Shufelt: That was a little intense earlier. That was very intense. Yeah, I could see everybody in the room was looking up during David Walker's keynote. Like, is that the rain? It was very heavy. It was kind of wild. Yeah, it's been a been a crazy few months around here.

[00:18:16] Dogfish Heads: I know. Well, you know, we were just chatting before we started recording with with Vinny about how you guys got a big event coming up and he's been checking the weather every day. It reminds me of right before my wedding when I compulsively checked weather apps to see what I was looking at. But, you know, I was only planning a party for 140 people in New Jersey. You are about to welcome how many people to Santa Rosa and Windsor?

[00:18:36] Bill Shufelt: It's usually about 24, 25,000 people between the two breweries within the 14 day release. So this Friday, we're releasing our Planet of the Younger and we'll have it on tap and in bottles for two weeks at just our Santa Rosa and Windsor locations. We've got a lot going on right now, but we're super excited to be here at the summit and excited to welcome friends and make new friends and just check out this whole thing. So happy to have you guys here.

[00:19:03] Dogfish Heads: Yeah. We're thrilled to be here. Younger is huge, huge for you guys.

[00:19:07] Bill Shufelt: Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, we've been planning usually takes us about four months to plan for the release. So last year we had to postpone it due to COVID, not due to COVID restrictions so much as but because we all had COVID and so we didn't have any employees to actually, you know, run it. So we had to... Kind of important. We kind of needed people. And so we decided to postpone it to late March and it ended up being a blessing in disguise. The weather was better, the days were longer, people didn't have as many travel restrictions, and it ended up just being a real happy accident. So we decided to make it a permanent move. And so from now on, we will have our in-person Planet of the Younger release late March, mid to late March, and then we'll do our distribution in early February. So yeah, it gives us a little extra time and breathing room to plan for such a huge release for us. Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:20:00] Sam Calagione: So last year was the first year back for you guys since the pandemic, correct? For like this in-person event.

[00:20:08] Bill Shufelt: Yeah. So we had it in 2020, right before everything shut down. And then 2021 was the infamous notorious year that we sold it online, which was successful. from the standpoint that we sold it all in a record short period of time, but it was unsuccessful from the PR standpoint. So, turns out people want what they want, and when they can't get it, they get upset. And they get upset at you. They don't get upset at, for example, the laws, or they don't get upset at, for example, Shopify, because Shopify doesn't actually pull things out of inventory when they put it in your shopping cart. And there's nothing we can do about that. We've tried repeatedly, but we can't. There is no fix for that. And so understandably, people get excited when they think they can buy it, and then they get upset when 15 minutes later it says they can't. So I get it. Totally get it. But anyway. It was a one and done, so we won't be doing that again. But then we had it in person last year in 2022, which was the year that we had to postpone it a little bit. So here we are, 2023, planned release this Friday. Everything is a go, team's ready, we're ready to rock and roll. I don't have any Younger merch on today, but everybody's wearing their new green Pliny the Younger gear. The beer is actually being packaged today. So we're super excited about that. So we will be able to taste it when we get home tomorrow and do one final QC check before the big day on Friday.

[00:21:44] Athletic Brewings: Wow.

[00:21:44] Bill Shufelt: So if you guys want to hang out a little bit longer, instead of flying home on Thursday, you could just drive over to Santa Rosa. It's not too far, a couple hours, and come hang out with me for a couple of days. It could be fun. I'm not opposed, Zoe.

[00:21:56] Sam Calagione: What do you think? No, that's not a bad idea. Could be fun.

[00:22:00] Dogfish Heads: Last year, we talked about the postponement and everything. And you and I were chatting before, and you told me that you guys had done a survey. And it turned out that this is preferred, right? People like the idea of coming here in March.

[00:22:13] Bill Shufelt: Yeah, so every year the Sonoma County Economic Development Board does an economic impact study and they've been doing it I think since 2013. I'm very proud to say that last year's total economic impact for our two-week release was $6.1 million. in Sonoma County, so very proud of that. It means that people come and they spend money, not only at our breweries, but they go to other breweries, they visit local wineries, restaurants, they stay in local hotels, and they do other things in the county. And coming out of the pandemic last year was certainly a much needed economic stimulus for the community and much appreciated that people would actually continue to travel, not so much from out of the country last year, but certainly from around the country. So it was really, really nice to see. And I think that's the thing that we're most excited about is bringing people back. It's just so fun to have everybody show up. It's like a big party and just a bunch of like-minded people who are enthusiastic and passionate about craft beer still. And we get a lot of what we call younger regulars who come back year after year. They might not live here. Maybe they live in Massachusetts or maybe they live in You know, who knows where? And they continue to come back year after year. They have their family reunions. They have their friend reunions. They have their birthday parties. They have whatever. And it's just really, really fun for us to be a part of their their celebration, too.

[00:23:36] Sam Calagione: Yeah. That tourism piece is such a big thing that's been still kind of missing in some areas since the pandemic happened. And it has such a big economic impact on some communities. Do you have a gauge on just what that atmosphere is looking like right now and that tourism recovery is looking like?

[00:23:53] Bill Shufelt: I think there are pockets of tourism recovery. What we're seeing in Sonoma County, because we're such a big wine community, is that tourism is back, like pre-pandemic levels. The wineries are busy. They've all gone to reservation models, which they implemented during COVID, which they had to due to COVID restrictions. And they like it because they don't get the giant bachelorette party, party buses. You know, just showing up at four o'clock on a Saturday with 24 really drunk ladies. I know, sounds like a nightmare. So they're all reservation only now, but they're pretty booked up these days. So yeah, it's nice to see. I mean, the hotels seem pretty booked up. They're definitely very expensive. Sonoma County, which is an indicator of supply and demand, right? So it is nice to see people coming back. And as far as beer tourism goes, I would say that has kind of softened a bit. That could be a few things, you know, I would say Access to craft beer is easier these days. You don't have to go on a road trip anymore to get a great beer. There's a brewery within 10 miles of pretty much everybody's house here in the United States these days. And with what, pushing 10,000 breweries in our country, it's pretty easy to find. a great beer in your backyard. So we don't quite see the beer tourism that we saw, say, in its heyday, 2013 through about 2016, 2017. But, you know, it's nice to see some tourism coming back. And we rely, you know, obviously on the local community for the year-round support, but we always welcome the tourists who especially come during Planet Younger.

[00:25:35] Dogfish Heads: Awesome. You know, we mentioned David Walker's keynote address this morning a little bit, you know, in regards to the rain, but he talked a little bit about how the craft and the love of the actual making of the beer and what we do is so important. And it can be fading away a little bit, but to me, like Russian River is the embodiment of that. Like your beers. I mean, I don't need to lavish praise upon you, but you know, your beers are excellent always. And you guys, to me, you know who you are and what you do, and so do your fans. What have you noticed about how those fans have changed in recent years?

[00:26:17] Bill Shufelt: That's a great question. We do tend to stick to our lane. Benny and I, you can call us conservative. You can call us old fashioned. You can call us just old if you'd like. That's fine too. But whatever we're doing seems to work and we are flexible and we are scrappy still. And so if we need to adjust like what we did for the last three years was seemingly something new every day. We can, but we don't want to follow trends. While the NA, and the seltzers, and the heart kombuchas, and all that seems to be sticking around maybe for a while, maybe forever, not really sure. That's not really our bandwagon. We've really chosen our lane and stuck to it. And it seems to be a really solid recipe for us. And I think if your consumer knows what to expect, and they can expect something that's consistent and consistently good, whether it has a brand like Pliny the Elder on the label, or whether it has an R&D that Vinny just made for the very first time in our five-barrel pilot brewery, they know that what they're going to get is going to be excellent. And we stick to beer. We like beer-flavored beer. We're big fans of clear beer. No offense to you folks from New England that enjoy the hazy beers, but we're actually not very good at making them. And so we decided, you know, we're not going to go down that road because we're just not, we're just genetically predisposed to make clear beer. We make a couple of great hazies, but we just not, not going down that lane. So, but I, you know, kudos to other brewers who realize that this is what we're going to do. We think we can make great NA beer, or I don't know if anybody can make great hard seltzer, but I've heard you guys talk so much about hard seltzers that you've found that you like. And I know Zoe, especially your generation of drinkers, really, really likes that kind of beverage. And so, no, but for me as a, you know, as a middle-aged craft brewer, I need to keep these things in the back of my mind because, you know, you're the newest generation of drinker and we want to make something that you like. Do I make anything that you like?

[00:28:31] Sam Calagione: Well, of course, I love Pliny the Younger.

[00:28:33] Bill Shufelt: Okay.

[00:28:33] Sam Calagione: Yes.

[00:28:34] Bill Shufelt: So you like beer? Yes. You do drink? Yes. OK. All right. Cool.

[00:28:37] Sam Calagione: And I am, contrary to my region, not a big hazy person.

[00:28:42] Bill Shufelt: So I like the clear beers. Yeah. Yeah. But I think Bart brought something up this morning that I hear often is like, how many of us last night drank something other than beer? And if there was a show of hands, it would have been every hand. Yeah. right? But that's always been the case, in my opinion.

[00:29:02] Sam Calagione: What I think is great about how you guys do things is you're sticking to what you like to do and what you're good at, but you're not doing it in a way where you're trying to create this exclusive atmosphere where you don't want to bring other people into that. And that was something that I heard Bart talk about at the New England Craft Beer Summit, was like, don't denigrate how consumers are coming into craft. Don't try to look down on certain products, but say, here, I have something that might have similar qualities that I could introduce you to.

[00:29:32] Bill Shufelt: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so this year, we're actually going to start making less of our sour barrel aged beers. And we're doing a construction project to modify that portion of the brewery into a lager house. And so we're going to kind of ramp up our lager and pilsner production by making more of our STS pills. and our Velvet Glow Helles Lager and both of those are very approachable beers and really I think a great alternative for somebody who's like not really into the big IPAs, not really into the sour barrel aged beers, maybe doesn't like a dark beer, just wants something that's, you know, approachable and not fussy. That sounds right up my alley.

[00:30:12] Sam Calagione: Yeah. I'm very excited for that.

[00:30:14] Bill Shufelt: Cool.

[00:30:15] Dogfish Heads: Awesome. You know, Natalie, we've talked a little bit about the next generation of beer drinkers and how they're a little different. I mean, I shouldn't say beer drinkers, just bevel drinkers in general. What else do you guys think you have on the horizon to be able to interact with that group of the 21 to 25 year olds?

[00:30:32] Bill Shufelt: Well, I think that, as I just mentioned, the loggers, increasing production of that. I think we're really good at customer service. And so we're going to keep doing that and stick with our two brewpub model. Brewpubs are not as popular as they used to be, but we still love bringing people to our home. And we want to give them the Russian River experience. And so I think that by doing that and providing an experience, people will connect with us regardless of their age. I love nothing more than to see somebody's child who ages into their adulthood and starts drinking Russian River beer. A child that maybe I've known for 20 years because our brew pub will be 20, you know, next year. It'll be 19 in a couple weeks and then 20 years next year. So we're going to have a couple parties, I think. But, you know, we have a, for example, we have a young man named Marlon and he is 22 years old. And Marlon's parents have been coming to our brewery since the day we opened 19 years ago and they still come in. But now Marlon works for us. And he's going to Sonoma State University and he's about ready to graduate with his bachelor's degree. And, you know, he's working for us in different positions in the brew pub. And I'm like, wow. I remember when that little boy was three years old and he used to come in and he always loved the beer bites and just hanging out. And now he works for us and he's part of our family. And that just means a lot to me. So we can still raise the next generation of beer drinkers and we're going to work on that one person at a time.

[00:32:13] Dogfish Heads: Awesome. I've been to both Santa Rosa and Windsor, and as the kids would say, the vibes are impeccable. It's just such a friendly, welcoming atmosphere. There's not any real snobbery, and they're both great places to hang out.

[00:32:25] Bill Shufelt: Thank you. I really appreciate that.

[00:32:27] Dogfish Heads: Well, thank you for putting it into the world, and thank you for joining us. This has been awesome.

[00:32:31] Bill Shufelt: No, this has been really fun, and it's really nice to see you. Like I said to you off air, I listen to you all the time, and it's nice to see your faces, and just having you here in California, and thank you for coming to the Summit.

[00:32:45] Dogfish Heads: Our next guest to join us in The Brewbound studio here at the California Craft Beer Summit hosted by the CCBA is Raj Little, co-owner of Oak Park Brewing right here in Sacramento. Raj, how you doing?

[00:32:57] Greater Good: I'm doing good. How are you guys? We're doing well.

[00:33:00] Dogfish Heads: We are. We are good.

[00:33:01] Jessica Infante: I'm so stoked to have you on because the first thing I did when I got to Sacramento was get off the plane and book it over to your place in a taxi. And I'm just so impressed with the space at Oak Park and the vibe. And you have the People's Beer, which I want to hear a little bit more about, too. It sounds like you all have big plans for the People's Beer, which is something I didn't know a whole lot about until I stopped at your place, is that this was a brand before in Wisconsin that was one of the, was it one of the first Black-owned breweries in the country?

[00:33:36] Greater Good: It was the first Black-owned brewery, and let me just go back. Thank you for coming out. That was a great event. You know, so just to give a little history on the CCBA Summit, we haven't had it, hosted it in Sacramento since COVID. So to see the amount of people that came out to the event at our spot, it made us feel really, really good. We didn't know we had that much love. We were like, oh my God. And just being here at this event today, we're seeing the love and sharing the love. So definitely thank you guys for coming out and supporting. So the People's Beer, Mr. Theodore Mack, he was the first black brewery owner in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. So it's debatable if he was the first black brewery owner in the United States. So we have documentation, but we haven't had anybody step up and show documentation. So if we're not right, let's tell the story. You know, it's all about the story. We met his family right around 2020. It was like right before the 20th anniversary of the purchase of People's Brewing Company by Mr. Mack. So we reached out to see if they would be interested in doing a collaboration with us. We wanted to pay homage to his legacy and the beer brand. So they were all about it. Cool. We sat down with them. We got the recipe. That was the one thing that we needed. So the recipe is 100 years old.

[00:35:08] Athletic Brewings: Wow.

[00:35:08] Greater Good: Yeah, so we reached out to a yeast company and they propagated the yeast. They created it. It was a three-month process. But long story short, just working with the family in 2020, October 10th, we relaunched the People's Lager on the 50th anniversary of the purchase of People's Brewing Company.

[00:35:30] Dogfish Heads: What a cool project.

[00:35:31] Greater Good: Yeah. I never expected to be in that situation, but it brought tears to my eyes. I bet. Just to make somebody's last wishes on their deathbed come to fruition. It was touching.

[00:35:47] Jessica Infante: Yeah. It's very cool that you have such a dedicated space to that people's corner at the back of the brewery and all the artifacts that tell the story and the history of it.

[00:35:59] Greater Good: Yeah, so the People's Room, that's a work in progress. It's like a mini-museum. And the cool thing about the People's Room, we're getting memorabilia from people that lived in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. They're seeing these reports of, oh, the People's Lager's been brewed again, and they're traveling to Sacramento to see if it's really being produced. So we have people bringing items in all the time and just donating them to us. So we dedicated that room to Mr. Mack and his legacy, you know, and the People's Brewing Company legacy.

[00:36:36] Jessica Infante: So what's the goal with the People's Beer? Is it to take it to a broader audience?

[00:36:41] Greater Good: So on Mr. Mack's deathbed, that was one of the things that his family shared with us. And we didn't know that he passed away like a few years before we connected with him. But on his deathbed, one of the last things that he said, he was like, man, I wish we could have took the People's Beer to a whole different level. from what I was told by his family when he purchased People's Brewing Company. One of the big themes was, you know, there was a lot of Caucasian, European, white people working at the brewery and with a black ownership coming in, the misnomer was, he's going to fire everybody and bring all the black people in. But Mr. Mack's mindset was, The people's beer, it's not a black beer or a white beer. It's the people's beer. And that's how I feel. You know, it's like that's liquid peace to me. That's like the liquid peace pipe beer. You can sit down and have discussions about whatever, if anybody has an open mind to sit down and have a great conversation.

[00:37:46] Dogfish Heads: And it was called the People's Beer the whole time.

[00:37:49] Greater Good: It was a people's brewing company. So the People's Lager was one of the beers that they produced. That was one of their flagship beers. So we're still trying to piece together what the beer menu looked like. So right now we know that they did a Christmas Ale and they did an Amber. So we are searching for the recipes and we're trying to find more information about the beer menu and like just artifacts that we can use to tell the story.

[00:38:15] Jessica Infante: Wow. It's pretty awesome what you've found so far. I mean, cans. I think there were chests in the meeting room. So yeah, it's very cool. What are some of the specs on the beer?

[00:38:27] Greater Good: When you say specs, are you talking about ingredients?

[00:38:30] Jessica Infante: ABV, that sort of thing.

[00:38:31] Greater Good: Okay, so it's a light beer. I think it's, off the top of my head, I think it's 4-7%. The grain build is super simple. Like I said, the yeast. had to be reformulated and grown, regenerated, so it's 100 years old, but yeah, it's just super simple and straightforward.

[00:38:50] Jessica Infante: Let's talk a little bit about the mission of Oak Park, because the space is so very cool, but what is the mission of Oak Park Brewing?

[00:38:59] Greater Good: That's a great question, and early on, we knew that we wanted to produce good beer and have a space where people could come Amanda Huang out and just have a good time. So we really found out who we were and what we do a year and a half into it. And this is during COVID. So Becca, Scott, Jeff's wife, so Becca and Jeff, they're co-owners as well. She came in one day and she had ABC written on a piece of paper. And I was like, so what does that stand for? And she goes, Art Beer Community. Uh-huh. I was like, if you're not going to run with it, I'm going to run with it. And we've been running with it ever since. It sums up who we are. No more, no less. We're all about art, beer, community. ABCs. It's easy as 1, 2, 3. Say it after me. Art, beer, community. Yeah, so that's who we are. That's what we do. And we definitely no community, no brewery, point blank.

[00:40:03] Dogfish Heads: Awesome. How long have you guys been open?

[00:40:05] Greater Good: A little over three years. Yeah, so we're babies in the game.

[00:40:08] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, but I mean already clearly making a mark. So that's something you should really be proud of.

[00:40:13] Jessica Infante: And this is a resurrection story too.

[00:40:16] Greater Good: Yeah, to a degree.

[00:40:17] Jessica Infante: Yeah, there was an Oak Park.

[00:40:20] Greater Good: And we found out this too, there was an Oak Park in the Midwest, because people would call us and they would want to order food. And we're like, this isn't on our menu. And they were like, well, we got your number off the internet. And I was like, where are you calling from? Well, the food looks awesome too, by the way. Yeah. They were like bangers and mash. I was like, yeah, that's not us. So we found out there was a Oak Park Brewing Company in the Midwest. And they closed down, so sorry for that. But now we're number one. You are the Oak Park. Yeah, the Oak Park. But there was an Oak Park Brewing Company before us. They had some issues, and they ended up shutting down after a few years.

[00:41:00] Dogfish Heads: That's funny. Our last chat with the Full Circle team, also a bit of a resurrection. I don't know how they had to pause in between, but you know, under new ownership too.

[00:41:09] Greater Good: So those are good friends of ours. Yeah, we've done a lot of projects with those guys. So we do a lot of collaborations. And one of the things we first did as a brewery before COVID, was it before COVID? It was during COVID.

[00:41:26] Dogfish Heads: Time has no meaning.

[00:41:27] Greater Good: Yeah. So we ended up reaching out to a lot of breweries, black-owned breweries. We wanted to do something for Black History Month as a collective effort. So Full Circle was one of those breweries there in Fresno. We hit them up. I talked to Art and he was like, yeah, we can do that. We reached out to Helicoastal in Oakland. They were like, we're game. We reached out to a Hunter's Point. They're like, hell yeah, let's do it. So we ran with those three breweries. We did a mixed four pack. And I can't, we've done so many collaborations. I think we did a mixed four pack of IPAs. You know, so the IPAs, I think we did a black, a hazy, a red. and a, I think a double IPA, but we also, yeah. So we also featured like people of African descent on the can label. So I can't remember exactly who we did the first year, but it was the first time that I know of that there were like people of color on a can label of beer, you know? So we got so much media coverage on that. It was incredible. It was incredible. I was just like, wow, man, we look like these people are calling us. These people are calling us and they want to talk to us. And we didn't know the magnitude of it when we did it because we were just like, hey, let's just do something.

[00:42:53] Jessica Infante: Well, there's virtually no representation. Yeah, I mean, it's something T.O. and Benny have talked about from Crowns and Hops is they wanted representation within just showing black people drinking beer, and they couldn't even find stock photos. So to put a black person on a can of beer, I mean.

[00:43:16] Greater Good: marketing, beer. You know, typically you saw people drinking beer like Billy Dee Williams, don't let the smooth taste fool you. I remember that as a kid. And, you know, then the St. Odds campaign, they had like Ice Cube and like all these hip hop artists. And now that I'm older and just looking back at that, it was like, we're consumers. So to have somebody of color on a can label, That's huge. And it was produced by Black Own Brewery. That says even more. So, yeah, so it was amazing. So we definitely do this. We're going to do that collaboration every year. This year, we switched it up a little bit, but, you know, we're always going to do something or many things for Black History Month.

[00:44:04] Jessica Infante: Well, you talked about art, beer and culture. And one of the things that stands out to me is the can art. I think you've got some fantastic can art. So tell me a little bit more about that and who makes that.

[00:44:17] Greater Good: We reach out to a lot of artists and we also have artists that reach out to us and they're like, hey, we're interested in doing a can label. You know, how do I go about doing it? So the best way to do it now is come into the brewery. build the relationship. You know, it's easy to come in and do a one-off and it has no, like, genuineness. You know, it's like, it's got to be a true collaboration where we're like vibing and, you know, we have input and, you know, we're building a relationship. Everything's built on a relationship. So we've reached out to artists throughout the United States. We have a campaign that's happening right now with Paint the Globe Foundation out of Virginia. So we've been working with them for about three years now. So what we do, we stripped, we had a big program, but we stripped it down. It was just a lot of work. So we ended up keeping the silent art auction to raise funds for what they do. And they travel around the world. They've been to Tanzania, Thailand, Nepal, and they help people that are in need. So they're doing the work. So this year, we just put the word out across the nation. Anybody can participate. You just need to submit your piece of art. The six pieces that bring in the most funds, we're going to put their artwork on the can labels. So there's nothing like fusion marketing. So it's really cool and it's for a good cause, you know, because everybody needs help. And, you know, we do a lot of stuff in the community. I want to do more like out in the community, you know, like what we do is collaborations is cool, but I feel we need to go out into the community now. So that's a little bit about how we pick up the artists for the can art.

[00:46:08] Dogfish Heads: That's super cool. I mean, how far outside of California do you guys get with distribution?

[00:46:13] Greater Good: Beer on the beer side of things. So right now We're locked into California. We're working on some things right now. Hopefully in the next 6 to 12 months we can have a Longer reach a broader reach, you know, so we're looking to take the people's lager national, possibly global, and we've been talking about that for years. So it's a great story. Netflix 2024. You guys keep putting that out in the cosmos for the people's beer brand and Mr. Mac senior story.

[00:46:49] Dogfish Heads: Yeah, I feel like we can manifest that for you. I would love to watch that. But yeah, basically, retailer friends, if you're out there, call Raj.

[00:46:58] Greater Good: Yeah, because I can't say, hey, go. With our ABC license, I can't say, hey, you can go, but we're out there. Yeah.

[00:47:08] Dogfish Heads: So collaboration is a huge part of what you do. What do you think that does for your brand?

[00:47:13] Greater Good: Fusion marketing. Yeah. Especially we want to do, whatever we do, we want it to have purpose. You know, so yeah, like I said, we get hit up all the time to do collaborations. And who doesn't want their brand on a can label? But it's got to make sense. You know, it's just like a lot of people think they're going to make money off of this, but it's all marketing. There's not a lot of money in making beer. It can be, but where we are now, we're babies, you know, so it's not a money grab, you know, but it's definitely fusion marketing. And Brittany Claypool, prime example, you know, she has her own beer line right now, and her beers are geared towards women. So her style of choice are the fruited kettle sours, and they're doing amazing. She does amazing work. She's part of our brew team. So I got to shout out the brew team while I have an opportunity. Jeff P. Scott, he vetted me, brought me on. We were talking about mentorship and coaching yesterday. So he was my coach and my mentor. I knew how to homebrew, but commercially, he brought me in, you know, showed me the tricks, the ins and outs and outs and ends of brewing. And I think we make a great team. And Becca, she's definitely the brain. She knows about everything, everything. From the bottom to the top, Becca's our go-to. If you pull that plug, we might have to figure it out on our own, and I don't want to do that. So with Brittany, she's our brand strategist, and she's a blessing. She's a blessing. I wish she was here right now, but she definitely has a perspective. on what we do and how she got involved. Because she didn't drink beer before she started working with us. She didn't know we were a black-owned brewery. And she was like, you guys got to amplify it. You guys got to put it out there that you're a black-owned brewery. So we did it. But now we don't have to lean on that as a crutch. you know, because we're more than that. And just seeing how many people came out and the people that are our regular customers, the diversity of the people that come to the brewery, you can't beat it with a bat. You know, the music, the food, you know, our team, everything's got to be diverse.

[00:49:36] Jessica Infante: Well, this has been awesome. So thanks for doing this, Raj.

[00:49:39] Greater Good: Thank you guys. Thank you guys for having me.

[00:49:41] Jessica Infante: Absolutely. And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Jess and Zoe. Thanks to Russian River, Nathalie Treluso, and Oak Park Brewing's Raj Little. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe, and thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week, or later this week with a bonus episode.