Brewbound Podcast: Road Report from the New England Craft Brew Summit

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before The Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with The Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head The Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch The Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Next on The Brewbound podcast, Jess and Zoe take you on a trip to Maine. Hello and welcome to The Brewbound podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:47] Jess Infante: I'm Jess Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:51] Justin Kendall: And this week, Jess and Zoe are gonna share three interviews from their trip to Maine.

[00:00:56] Jess Infante: Yeah, we went to Maine. We went to the New England Craft Brew Summit hosted by the Maine Brewers Guild, set up a couple of fun conversations with a brewer, a on-premise owner, and the Guild Director herself, Ms. Sarah Bryan. Good times.

[00:01:14] Justin Kendall: So you're going to talk to Sarah, and you also have interviews with Orange Bike?

[00:01:20] Jess Infante: Yep. We spoke with co-founder and CEO Tom Ruff of Orange Bike and owner of the Thirsty Pig, which is right in downtown Portland, one of Portland's first Craft Brew bars, Allison Stevens. And it was really great to get Alison's take on just the temperature of things in Portland right now, because who would know that better than a Craft Brew bar owner?

[00:01:40] Justin Kendall: So stay tuned for those three individual interviews. We'll have those after we talk a little bit about the news. But before we get started, please like, rate, review, and subscribe. Come check us out at CBC. We'll be at booth 512. We'll be recording episodes of this podcast. We'll be just chatting up folks, and you can also get a free t-shirt.

[00:02:04] Maine Brewers: You can get a free t-shirt. We may request that you do something before you get a free t-shirt. Maybe subscribe if you haven't subscribed already to the podcast. But yeah, even if you don't want to, you just want to say hi, come say hi, because we're going to be around. There'll be someone around, maybe someone from our team, and we're going to try to have lots of fun little conversations. So definitely reach out.

[00:02:28] Justin Kendall: And also for your calendars, we The Brewbound Live coming up December 10th and 11th, and Marina Del Rey will be announcing speakers in the coming weeks. So stay tuned for that. You can get all your information The Brewbound Live The Brewbound.com. Let's get into the news. It was a big news week already. We're recording this on Tuesday, and it's been a day. And we've got one huge distributor deal done. Hand Family Companies is entering California with the acquisition of Sunset Distributing and Classic Beverage. They're gonna have 15 million cases after this deal in California. They'll have 50 million total. among their multi-state branches, which includes Tennessee, Kentucky, and Illinois. And I got a chance to speak with J.R. Hand, who's going to be the CEO of this new subsidiary, Sunset Distributing. And he basically told me, we're going to be the guy for craft in Southern California. At this point, we are the distributor to go with there because that's their whole book is taking on 70 plus brands from Sunset Distributing. Plus a lot of non Alex from classic beverage. A lot of the big names that we've seen in deal activity, Alani New, Poppy, but they're not going to stop. They're also looking to be very acquisitive going forward. And an AB wholesaler entering the state in that area, filling some white space, I would think that they will definitely be in the market for working a deal with some of those branches there and possibly getting cut water from RNDC.

[00:04:13] Jess Infante: Yeah, one interesting thing to me that you called out in the story, Justin, was that the new entity, Sunset, is going to be part of the California Beverage Solutions, which was this consortium that contains Sunset Distributing and then a few other independent AB houses, and they banded together as a way to come up with an alternative statewide reaching distribution network to what Reyes has been doing in California, which is vast.

[00:04:39] Justin Kendall: One of the eye-opening things in talking with JR is that they are very much saying, we're going to be competitive with Reyes, we're going to be competitive with Breakthrough, we're going to be competitive with RNDC. So they're coming into the market just vocalizing that We want to be a challenger distributor here. And after the last, I don't know, what's it been, a decade of Reyes building their foundation in the state, we're in for some interesting times because they are a well-capitalized business entering the state. This is a major entity coming in.

[00:05:21] Maine Brewers: Still a very bold statement. Very bold. California has been a place we talked about a lot where it really has had this kind of dominant player this whole time and no one has really been able to crack into that. But you see the list of all the brands that they are taking on just initially, there's a lot there. So they're not coming in lightly.

[00:05:45] Justin Kendall: Yeah, when you look at the craft book, it's Sapporo Stone, Coronado, Pizza Port, very strong brands in the market, Society, Juneshine, there's a lot in that stone book if you really wanna dig into it. Arizona Hard, Big Sips, Blake's Hard Cider, Coronado, I don't think I mentioned them, maybe I did. You did. Yeah. Uncle Rick's always on my mind. Russian River, maybe you've heard of them? Maybe. Maybe. Lots going on there. We're going to have more coverage up The Brewbound.com for insiders. You'll be able to dig into my conversation with J.R. Hand. I also talked to C.J. Sanchez, who sold Classic here, and he's also still involved with Harland Brewing and Sunset Distributing. There's a lot to unpack with this one. Sticking with our California theme, let's talk about fairy doors.

[00:06:49] Jess Infante: Oh, fairy doors. Yeah, so Brewery Insiders might recall back in the fall when we wrote a story about Anderson Valley Brewing Company being listed for sale, something that was touted in the real estate listing for this brewery was how many fairy doors are spread out through their campus. And it's a thing. They're cute, cute little tiny doors carved into various trees. No mention of them in the story we just published last week, though. Anderson Valley has indeed sold to Northern California area wine entrepreneur Jason McConnell. And it sounds like Jason's background is really in creating, you know, he had helped found a brewery up that way. I'm sorry. He helped found a winery up that way and was really successful at turning the location into like a really big events destination. So I think he's got designs on doing that again here with Anderson Valley, which is perfectly set up for that. They've got a disc golf course, a big outdoor stage area, lots and lots of space. I would look for that to become more of a destination with a very specific focus of like, hey, come all the way up here to drink our beer. And Anderson Valley is in a pretty remote spot. I did not realize that they... I feel silly saying this because it seems like it's a festival they've done for almost 30 years and I should know more about it, but they've been hosting a festival across the road, literally across the street from the brewery at the Mendocino County Fairgrounds, and Jason is really hype to get involved with this year's festival, which will be coming up in a few weeks. I believe they gave it a Big Lebowski theme this year. Which, is that movie having a holiday? Because I've seen several Big Lebowski themed events pop up.

[00:08:30] Justin Kendall: Maybe. You're asking the wrong person.

[00:08:32] Maine Brewers: Maybe it's, is that a recession indicator when the Big Lebowski comes back? I feel like it's waves.

[00:08:39] Justin Kendall: 1998. Maybe. Hmm. 27th year.

[00:08:45] Jess Infante: Well, like hanging around in a bathrobe sounds comfy and cozy. So I don't know who's mad about that. But yeah, I spoke with Kevin McGee. He bought Anderson Valley, got a little over five years ago. And his family acquired the brewery from its previous owner who was not its founder. So this brewery has changed hands quite a bit. I want to say that Jason, the new owner, is the third new owner in about 15-ish years. So that's a lot of change for what is one of the 20 oldest breweries in California. So really an icon in that industry. And we will see what happens. But Jason admitted to the San Francisco Chronicle Reporter he spoke to that he's really not a beer guy and he really doesn't know much about the industry. So we will see what happens. But I will always miss talking to Kevin. He was always really solid with us. like to touch base with him. He had a lot of really interesting ideas. He's a lawyer by trade, so it seems like he might be going back that direction. But yeah, just really unfortunate timing for his family's acquisition of that brewery. It was just a couple months before COVID, which is that everybody knows it's been a tough time to be a Craft Brew owner. So they decided it was time to get out and that's what they've done.

[00:10:03] Justin Kendall: Farewell to Kevin and Gordie McGee.

[00:10:06] Jess Infante: Oh, Gordie. Gordie is the McGee's family dog who became an Anderson Valley mascot. Unsure if he is sticking around.

[00:10:14] Justin Kendall: I would hope that the dog's sticking with the McGee family.

[00:10:17] SPEAKER_??: Yes.

[00:10:19] Justin Kendall: So that's the news for now. You can read it all The Brewbound.com. You can check out The Brewbound newsletter. If you're not a subscriber to the newsletter, you can become a free subscriber to the newsletter and then maybe a paid one in the future. Who knows?

[00:10:34] Maine Brewers: We also have lots of data stuff coming out on the site, including the most recent quarterly report from CGA, which is diving into on-premise trends. That is exclusive for Brewbound Insiders. You're only gonna find that on our site and only for BrewBounders. So definitely take a look, check out that stuff, because there's lots of fun numbers to dive into.

[00:10:54] Justin Kendall: Did you just coin the The Brewbound? Yes. I'm here for it. Well, let's get to your interviews from Maine.

[00:11:04] Maine Brewers: Maine has nearly 200 breweries and it has a really robust Craft Brew scene going on and slightly more than 1.1 million adults. So it has the second most breweries per capita, according to the Brewers Association. So here to talk to us about what that Craft Brew scene looks like is the Maine Brewers Guild Executive Director, Sarah Bryan. Welcome, Sarah. Hi, Zoe. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining. And I'm really excited that we have you on because I remember when we first met very briefly about a year ago, you had just joined the Guild as Executive Director. So there's been a lot that has gone on that we can dive into in that time. But this is also just a couple of weeks past when we wrapped, me and Jess attended, and you organized the New England Craft Brew Summit. How did it go? How are you feeling now that everything is all wrapped up?

[00:12:02] Guild Director: It was a wonderful event. I think, truthfully, I feel a bit emotionally hungover. As you mentioned, I started a year ago, the week of the Summit, the 2024 event. I was three days in. And I had attended as a brewing professional before, but it was a bit of a blur. So, you know, a year in, it felt very different. Even with a challenging landscape in Craft Brew right now, it was a really positive event. I think overall it was pretty inspiring. We left on a high. It was a great time, but we're recovering now and trying to get back to business as usual.

[00:12:37] Maine Brewers: It's not easy putting on any event like that. You guys have a really decent turnout for that. It's over 400 people that show up.

[00:12:46] Guild Director: Almost 450 this year. Absolutely. We're the biggest conference in the Northeast outside of New York.

[00:12:52] Maine Brewers: That's huge, and it's really cool to see. I mean, it's all New England, so you have a lot of Maine Brewers there, but you also have folks from all the surrounding states. Our New England community is vast, but also very small at the same time. So it's always great when the industry comes together like that. So now this year, you really were a part of actually organizing and getting this together. Compared to last year, you were three days in. How did last year compare with this year?

[00:13:20] Guild Director: We wanted to make some thoughtful changes this year without. straying too far from the core identity and the history of the event. We wanted to change up the layout. We wanted to shrink the vendor pool a little bit just to keep it really curated, which allowed us to have a more flexible interactive floor plan. We built in demonstrations and interaction on the exhibition floor itself. Crosby Hops, for example, did these two gorgeous tactile hop rubbing sessions. We're tactile people, so being able to get your hands dirty even on a day of conferences and seminars, felt really valuable. This year, we formed a technical committee, a group of brewers, and we tasked them with really organizing our technical content. As much as I love beer and I've been in beer a long time, I think brewers know best what they really want to hear. And they really succeeded in bringing in some wonderfully talented, internationally known presenters for us. So it felt very much like the next generation of what is a heritage event for us.

[00:14:24] Maine Brewers: That's so exciting. There was a lot going on, like a lot of information, and you had different tracks of kind of where whatever you were looking for, you could find it there. And we had some pretty big names in beer too, and Sam Calagione from Dogfish Head was the keynote. We had a whole like beer veterans panel going on that you guys organized. Definitely drew some people's attention and got people excited.

[00:14:49] Guild Director: I'm glad. That was the hope. This year was really about where we've been and where we're going. You know, the theme of this year was redefining Craft Brew and really looking to the future. And I think to do that, you really also have to know where you come from. So we wanted to draw in some new faces in the industry, but we really also wanted to celebrate kind of like the OGs of Craft Brew in the Northeast. And we were very lucky to get Sam to be our keynote speaker. He is, I know a lot of us have met him over the years, but he's exactly what everybody thinks. He's charming and intelligent and so lovely and inspiring. So we felt very lucky.

[00:15:25] Maine Brewers: I also am a part of the Hogger Prize group, went to the same school, high school as Sam. So it was nice to see his little, during his keynote, he gave quite an extensive spiel on NMH, which was a fun way to start off the morning. It was cool. He's a wonderful man.

[00:15:42] Guild Director: He is.

[00:15:43] Maine Brewers: Yeah. And brought lots of excitement with tossing hats too, encouraging folks to bring questions. It was a great way to get the energy up for the start of the day. So let's dive into Maine and what is going on in the state. I mean, you are leading the guilds there. Maine has some pretty extensive and huge Craft Brew like Allagash is kind of a big one there. And then also smaller producers who are located all over the state. Some have some pretty seasonally driven business, a lot of folks going up to Portland in the summer, other places around Maine in the summertime. How are you as the leader of this guild and working with all these breweries, how are you balancing the needs of quite a vast array of breweries?

[00:16:26] Guild Director: It's a spectrum. It is a true spectrum. endeavor to find a reasonable medium in almost everything we do. Oftentimes we wind up bifurcating our programming and almost targeting our events and programming to our spectrum of businesses with where they're at. As you've alluded to, Maine has an old and pretty established Craft Brew scene. Allagash is celebrating 30 years this weekend actually, which we're very proud and pleased for them. But like a lot of other states, we had a lot of breweries come online in the mid to late 20 teens. who are now reaching almost 10 years in brewing. Whereas, you know, the size of these breweries, the location of these breweries, the age of these breweries do range. We are endeavoring to kind of like find that thoughtful medium.

[00:17:14] Maine Brewers: That totally makes sense. We talk about those breweries at the 10 year mark a lot too, because it seems like that's a pretty big like inflection point of, you know, businesses kind of deciding what their next step is going to be. And I mean, 10 years is a long time. And you kind of have to evaluate, okay, how do I approach this next level for my business? How do I maintain where I'm at now if I want to do that? Do I want to look at getting bigger? And there's so many changes that we're constantly talking about in craft too, that that's probably the types of folks that need a lot of the guidance from guilds.

[00:17:51] Guild Director: It's true. And I think whether we're talking about like Allagash or Atlantic that are 30 years old, or whether we're talking about maybe Good Fire, which is probably only 10 years old, we're at this point where we all are almost out of the scrappy startup phase. And now is kind of the point where breweries do face this point of evolution. There were a series of years where we were all kind of throwing things at the wall and watching to see what stuck. And now we have this year over year data and the market is changing. So it's time to kind of do something with that information. Pay attention closely to what the consumers are reacting to. pay attention closely to what our tourism and hospitality landscape is doing and moving on from there. And you see that in product line diversification right now. You see non-alcoholic beverages coming out in larger numbers. You see thoughtful iterations of gluten-free beer, whereas the trajectory of growth nationwide in beer has changed. There's still lots of room for innovation and kind of thoughtful dialing into what our breweries are making.

[00:18:54] Maine Brewers: Totally. It is Craft Brew. And I know our listeners have heard us say this a million times too, but Craft Brew is it's most people are getting into it, not necessarily to make a lot of money, but because they love it or passionate about it. And you still have to deal with that balance of it's also a business at the end of the day. So how do you figure out how do I sustain this and also do what I'm really excited about in beer? really big thing that everyone in craft is trying to think about right now.

[00:19:25] Guild Director: It's true. It's a challenge, you know, and like beer, I think, is essentially tied to community. I think it is about really listening to what people want and reconciling that with your vision for what your brand can do.

[00:19:38] Maine Brewers: So along with dealing with different sizes and ages of breweries, Maine also has quite a diverse array of where these breweries are even located. I mean, we know that Portland has a pretty big concentration of breweries, but Maine also has some small little rural towns that have little breweries going on too. How do the needs of those breweries differ and how are you helping those types of breweries?

[00:20:02] Guild Director: It can be profoundly different in landscape between our urban breweries and our rural destination breweries. I think for us, we try to approach it as Maine as a whole. Maine is a destination unto itself. And when you come here from away, that's the main term for tourists. When you come from away, We hope and we encourage our visitors really not to settle in one area if they can help it. It really is about seeing different parts of the state. Maine is exceptionally regional and every region has profoundly different offerings and beauty and breweries to go with it. It's a gorgeous state to road trip and we want everybody to stop in Portland, but we need you to see the Maine beaches as well and the Maine highlands and the Maine mountains. And because we are so rich in culinary and beverage, almost really no matter where you go, there will be a wonderful offering for you and a wonderful brewery kind of waiting to open its doors.

[00:20:56] Maine Brewers: I love Maine so much. I mean, I grew up in Massachusetts. So Maine is like where we would go for anything. You go to the beaches in the summer. You want to go up to Acadia and just see gorgeous landscapes and hiking trails. Like you can find basically anything you could imagine in Maine.

[00:21:11] Guild Director: It's beautiful. It's vacation land. Yeah. It's true. And there's always kind of more to discover. Maine is the largest New England state. And, you know, even I, who have lived here for 10 years, I'm constantly finding that there's new small towns, new areas, new hiking trails to explore. That would be our primary strategy when it comes to working, you know, help rural breweries meet their needs. It's about sharing that message of like the journey and the destination and finding those hidden gems that are truly special, if slightly off the beaten path.

[00:21:43] Maine Brewers: Totally. You know, you've been in this role for a year now. What are some of the most common needs or refrains that you're hearing from some of your members as we're now a few months into 2025?

[00:21:58] Guild Director: Right now, I think there's a lot of concern and speculation in the market. We've been preoccupied primarily with the conversation of tariffs. Maine shares a large border with Canada to the north. We are seeing some retaliatory tariffs. We are seeing Maine Brewers being dropped from Canadian orders. And we're worried about tourism as well. Tourism was down in 2024 almost 10%. Canadians cherish parts of our summer peak season. Former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau even mentioned that Canadians won't be visiting Old Orchard Beach this year, which is in Maine, which we're quite concerned about. So I think right now the brewers in Maine are primarily watching and hoping and trying to shore up plans to continue their operations as they have without absorbing excess increased costs.

[00:22:47] Maine Brewers: Totally. We have been talking a lot about tariffs and just that ever-changing landscape recently. And I feel like most of the conversations have been around some of the bigger brewers or how they would impact them or specifically like aluminum tariffs and how that may impact smaller breweries. But we're not, haven't had as many conversations about that like tourism piece or about some of the states that are on those, you know, bordering Canada, how that could really affect some of these smaller breweries. there's way more impact here than maybe the conversations we're necessarily having.

[00:23:21] Guild Director: I think so. Maine cherishes every tourist, every visitor. We rely on it. Our peak season is short. We love New England, but our summer is four months at best. And yes, we have long winters. So, I mean, every guest that doesn't walk through the door is earnestly missed and earnestly felt. And in our northern communities, it's families that straddle borders too. We're so close in so many ways that the loss of easy travel will affect our smaller breweries, especially in the rural regions where every dollar matters.

[00:23:55] Maine Brewers: So what kind of guidance do you give to those breweries like that, especially in, like I said, we don't really know what's going to happen day to day. So what are these breweries doing to kind of prep for whatever may come?

[00:24:08] Guild Director: Right now, I think it's a lot of anxious waiting and reading and watching the news. We won't really know what we're working with for tourism or for weather, for that matter, until summer is here. But Mainers are resilient. We are quite accustomed to working with the challenges of short peak seasons of challenging weather. 2023, for example, I think it rained like more than half of the summer, which absolutely affected us. But I think it is about trying to make what educated guesses we can now to sort of prepare for what could be a challenging season. It's not a resounding message of optimism, but that is what we are prepared to do.

[00:24:49] Maine Brewers: So beyond helping guide breweries with that, what are some of the other goals that you have for the Guild this year? What are you looking forward to and things you're looking to accomplish?

[00:25:00] Guild Director: I think a huge strategic goal of ours is to of re-stitch together a sense of pre-COVID camaraderie in the industry. As you mentioned, New England is large and mighty. At the same time, it is pretty small, and we all know each other very well, which is lovely. But I think the stressors of the landscape in a post-COVID world haven't totally ebbed back to pre-COVID levels. So we are endeavoring to create events like the New England Brew Summit, and we're revamping Maine Brewers Week, which is in the first week of November every year. to kind of create new opportunities for brewers to leave their space, which can be very difficult to do and find some real community again with each other and kind of re-energize the events that celebrate the really hard work that goes into beer all year long. So I'd say that's one of our biggest strategic goals. And then beyond that, it's stabilization and endeavoring to be a resource when the landscape is unpredictable and volatile.

[00:25:59] Maine Brewers: no easy task at all that you have ahead for yourself. That camaraderie piece is such a core part of craft overall. Craft is such a community and it sounds super cheesy, but like I just joined the industry four years ago or so and was pleasantly surprised by how, yes, these are all businesses essentially competing against each other, but folks are so willing to share ideas and collaborate. And it's definitely something that you need even more in times of struggle or challenges. So I appreciate the work of folks like the guilds, where a big part of your job is just making sure people still feel that and are connecting like that. Since you've joined the Guild, how has that made you appreciate it all more? I mean, I'm sure you've been in this industry forever, so I know you've seen it, but how has being in that sort of leadership role when it comes to creating that community shaped how you see it?

[00:27:03] Guild Director: Oh, man. I'll first say it's a lot of work. I've been in beer for almost 15 years, but always in-house Maine Brewers. I did serve on the New Hampshire Brewers Guild board for a few years. It's a lot of work to get folks together at events that are like really worthy of their time, I will say. I think it's very easy for breweries to feel like they're on an island. There's always something to be done. There's always something more to be done. The work is never finished. There's never quite enough hands. You can never make quite enough beer and you never have enough storage. Definitely never enough cold storage. I'll say that. And I think being in this role, this leadership role has impressed on me like how deserving like these brewers are of, you know, like working channels of communication, creating pathways for them to work together. I have an operations background, which when you're, you know, building a brewery or making a product can be binary when you're working with people, people on different schedules, people of different sizes of different areas. It's kind of a moving target that we're shooting for, but I feel very grateful to work with Maine specifically. I am new to this role, as we've mentioned now a few times, but I've inherited like a really unique and like functional culture. They already know and care about each other. It's just about creating the opportunities for them to spend that time and to hopefully reward themselves a little bit for all the work that they do all year long.

[00:28:29] Maine Brewers: Brewers really are just people within the craft industry. A lot of them are working on really small teams. Like I said before, they're really passionate about what they do. So it's kind of hard sometimes to get them out of their comfort zones and out of that super, I got to do what I got to do zone and be like, hey, we can branch out a little bit. can find some other things that we can do that are still going to help your business at the end of the day to maybe go to some of these events and learn new things and network. But there's not that immediate, you know, checking out the box, I brewed enough beer today or I connected with enough wholesalers today type thing. It's definitely no easy task.

[00:29:07] Guild Director: No, we had some breweries that had to close to come to our summit because they are the staff members. They wear all of the hats. And that is a tremendous privilege that we as a guild endeavor to work up to and continue to earn and continue to go beyond their expectations because they deserve it. And it's very hard work.

[00:29:26] Maine Brewers: Kudos to you all and your programming too that folks are seeing that it's worth doing that too, worth shutting down for that day.

[00:29:32] Guild Director: It really is a member-based organization. And the Maine Brewers Guild has a very dedicated board of brewery owners, brewery operators who work very dedicatedly to making this happen. But we also have a pretty rich and engaged committee program, which I think makes all the difference. You know, it's brewers endeavoring to create events and opportunities for themselves, and it really is about listening to members. You know, it's not the Guild in some lofty tower. Like, we all come from this line of work, myself included, and I think that makes the difference.

[00:30:08] Maine Brewers: Well, Sarah, what else should people know about the Guild? What should they look forward to for you all in the next year?

[00:30:15] Guild Director: In the next year, I would say you absolutely have to save the date for Maine Brewers Week, 207 Beer Week. We run the first week of November every year. It's a week-long, sometimes 10-day series of almost nonstop events. We really endeavor to make it diverse and extremely celebratory. This past year was a little tough because it happened during election week, and I think the politics derailed some of our programming. But besides that, we run a arm wrestling tournament every year for Maine Brewers, which is incredibly silly and incredibly fun, and the costumes are outrageous. We do bar tap takeovers. We encourage additional beer trails, almost like a treasure hunt. So it's a really fun series of programming just to remember why we love Craft Brew and to find opportunities to come together.

[00:31:03] Maine Brewers: Great. Well, really appreciate it, Sarah. Thanks for coming on and chatting. Thank you, Zoe. I appreciate your time.

[00:31:11] Jess Infante: We are live in Portland, Maine. It is so exciting to be on the road with Zoe. Thank you for coming on this adventure with me, but we are at the Thirsty Pig chatting with owner Allison Stevens. Alison, how you doing? Great, great. Happy to be here. Good morning. Thanks for visiting. Oh, well, thanks for having us, especially after last night. You guys hosted Freshman Orientation, which was a celebration of all the newer brewers in the state of Maine as part of the New England Craft Brew Summit. Zoe and I were here. We had a great time. How late were you up? It was killer. No, last night ended pretty tamely because we started early. I mean, the bar was full at two o'clock yesterday, which is kind of fun, and a really great testament to how everyone wanted to be hanging out together. I also coined a new term last night that I think we'll take in the beer business, but these breweries that all started last night are working in someone else's build-out. They're working in a brewery that already closed, so we're calling them the sequels. Oh, I love that. Like a part two, like you've got to come in with new energy, your own cast and do your own thing over. But financially, they're already ahead in a lot of ways because they're not doing all that build out and plumbing and stuff. So they still had this excitement about them that was really fun to watch. Awesome. Well, so listeners of the Brew Brown podcast will know that we often call situations like that hermit crabbings. Switching the shell. Yeah. So you've got a whole bunch of people that have moved into shells that previous crabs made their home and now they're making it their own, which is great. We had a lot of great beers last night. What stood out for you? I definitely enjoyed the Sunset Park Amber. I think a return to the older styles is kind of fun. That was from The Send. He was obviously just a great brewer already at Maine Brewers Company and at Mass Landing, but to have his own product last night was really exciting on another account when it's kind of designed to be a brew pub. Awesome. I did not try that, but that sounds like a miss on my part. Fortunately, I'm in Portland for another night, so. That's right. Well, so we're super familiar with the Thirsty Pig and what you do here, but for somebody who maybe hasn't heard of the Thirsty Pig, what's your elevator pitch on what this place is all about? So we're 14 years in on being a Craft Brew bar that focuses on house-made sausages, fun hot dogs, and local music and love. Awesome. Yeah. And this is the city to be like a Craft Brew embracing bar for sure. Yeah. This is my 14th year, but first year taking on liquor because it has been so strong beer forward that I was able to maintain this rent in this city, this location, on just the back of local Maine Brewers. So that says a ton. Yeah. Now you're selling liquor. Just like, yeah, four or five different shots just to help, you know, rent's still going up. Oh, yeah. It's bonkers out there. But I feel like that kind of says something about where we are in this moment in time. Beer is taking a second. Beer is taking a beat. And I don't think it's down. I just don't think it's up. Yeah. I mean, you've been on the front lines of what the New England Craft Brew scene has been for almost a decade and a half. Yeah. How have you noticed things change in that time? It went from an embarrassment of riches, this really fun, exciting, climbing, momentous, everyone has money, everyone's traveling, everyone's doing events to, okay, we have some bills to pay and maybe we won't do custom glasses this year and maybe pump the brakes on not everyone has a sales team anymore. There's some big shifts just this year, noticeably, in the last fourth quarter of last year and then the beginning of this year of just like staffing changes and reductions and just in general, a pullback on the festivities that is beer. Wow. Well, let's dig on that for a little bit, because I know, I mean, our audience are mostly entrepreneurs in the Bebel space. the fact that you've noticed a cutback on sales teams is big for me. So who are you hearing from now? Like distributor reps? Yeah. Yeah. Because of the mergers with the distributors and then now distributors are coming out in teams. Well, at least here in Portland. Yeah. It's hard to say no to a team. Right. And then they're repping five or six quality brands. And so we're really getting, you know, a lot of work done, but it's really for whose house it is. Yeah. And how many distributors are calling on you right now? I was at seven to 12, and I am down to three or four. And then like two or three shelf distro, maybe. Wow. Yeah. It was huge, that merger when the TJC and Craft House sold. And then, you know, there was scamperings of some other ones, a lot of, with Craft Collective, and all gone, you know, and Mariner Beverages, which was a huge, just main dominant one the whole time, main focused wines, Maine Brewers. them getting bought with Pine State, that merged all of those local like small town relationships right here in Portland. And that changes a lot for you. It changed everything. And then those teams also lost their reps at the same time. So it was like, oh, we're merged in a bigger house and we don't have feet on The Brewbound anymore. Tough. Really tough. When you're on the receiving end of a sales call, what are you looking to hear? a good attitude, belief in their product, knowledge of what they're doing, price for sure, quality absolutely number one. But on top of that, just have a good attitude and like a general knowledge of what's going on right now and not too much naivety. And then also like doing your homework before you get an account so you don't just totally put your foot in your mouth. Yeah. Wow. Well, how much support do you like from the brands that you're selling here? A lot. Yeah. I will forget about them if I don't. There's enough competition right now that if I don't see you every week, the chances are I'll forget to order your beer again. I only have 14 taps. So we rotate and I only sell what sells in three days on tap. Wow. So that already eliminates some breweries in the state, but then I just work hard to rotate the other ones and it's who comes in and sees me, talks to me, reminds me. Yeah, and do you, I mean, you've got some neons. In terms of swag, what do you, what do you like to get? You guys have a pretty clean bar. Swag is such a newer thing. Like when I started, these guys were all ragtag, like Bissell was making their own shirts and carrying them around in a garbage bag. To get to have the first Bissell neon was a huge honor. To have the first Allagash one in Portland, also a huge honor. And then we weighed it with our good friends at Orono because We crush their beers. Yeah. I mean, I know I was drinking out of an Orono glass last night, so. Glassware is key still. Yeah. I really think people love that. I know the tap handle's gone down a little bit in popularity because some people like a sleek design. Yep. I still like advertising and being proud of the companies I'm representing. Yeah. And what are you hearing from your guests? What do people come in here looking to try these days? So last night was definitely full of beer industry folk, I call like adjacent, like people that have blogs, people that have, they might have their own podcast, but you know, a lot of those people were in beverage sales of some kind last night and they all had interesting perspectives on what was new and what was out and who was trying an IPA versus, you know, a classic solid style like a Stout or an Amber. Not gonna lie, we're still on a hazy IPA train that will not quit. You know, I have to keep a cider on, to be honest, but then my top three are Cloudy IPA, Allagash White, and then like a Pale Ale. Right. Nice. Nice. And Zoe and I both drank lagers last night. Killing them. And I have so many choices to rotate with right now too. Yeah. Well, Allison, when you look back over the years, do you have a favorite memory or interaction with a customer at The Pig? I think that's an incredibly hard question because honestly what keeps me coming here every day is the fun we have and the stories that we get to kind of like watch unfold every day in front of us. There's just all sorts of action on the street on both sides and a lot of through traffic of scenarios. It's just a fun place, but a favorite, I do just adore how much people really get this concept and celebrate their life moments here and come in for special occasions or birthdays or rites of passage or weddings, all of it.

[00:39:14] Zoe Licata: Oh, makes me so happy.

[00:39:16] Jess Infante: Yeah. Oh, that's great. It must be awesome to be a part of those big milestones in people's lives. It is. And it's so flattering too, like, oh, can I have my senior photos taken here? I mean, it's high schoolers all the way through elderly. It's all different backgrounds of people that are into it. Well, so how have you adapted the menu since you opened? I know, so we added some spirits. You're mostly just doing those for shots? Are you doing cocktails at home? It is mostly shots, but you can buy your own mixer. Okay. And then you can buy another shot to re-up that or however, but. Fun, fun, fun. Like an airport. You know, like not a mixed cocktail, not a cocktail program. Yeah. I mean, that would probably slow the team down. Yeah. And there's plenty of places in Portland to get a really good cocktail. Don't even try. Yeah. Right. And I'm also not trying to be like a high end cocktail bar. I really just am doing it so the one person in the group stays happy because most of the dudes all want beer or the majority of the group wants a Maine Brewers. Right. That's really what they want. But everyone likes to keep a group happy on vacation. So just adding liquor is just a benefit to keep them from. Got it. Got it. Getting it somewhere else. And what gets you excited about Craft Brew right now? Because I feel like the, I mean, we've talked about this, we've heard it at the summit. Unfortunately, the overarching theme in Craft Brew these days is a little doom and gloomy, and that's not really too fun. I mean, it helps to be realistic about the nature of the business at this moment, but what fires you up about Craft Brew right now? Honestly, it's still the story behind it. The values and the ethics and the plans that went into making these small businesses and how they're contributing back to our local economy is priceless. We can't just take it out and stop supporting them when they've started all these great programs. So I'm still supporting all these breweries that are still doing all these great programs. We're still doing great things for all our community members. I don't think any of that is going to stop. There's still a lot of work to do and it falls on people that can pay their bills. And so we're going to keep all of that up for as long as we can. Yeah, it's doomy and gloomy, but everything is cyclical. This could just be another, like I said, it was so great. It was an embarrassment of riches that this is just a downturn. And if we can stick with it, we'll be okay again too. People will come back. I am terrible at math, but you opened up in what, like 2011? Yeah. Cool, which was... Kind of a down time. Yeah. There was a lot of empty spaces on the street. In Portland specifically. So how has the Portland Craft Brew scene changed in this time? Because you've had a front row seat. The whole time. And I was in beer for the 10 years before that. Oh, I don't think I knew that. So I've been selling and around beer my whole career, but God, the excitement in the building. So here's... Maine is small. And then there's only a handful of doers on top of that. And so the doers and the energy and the business people can easily get together with the congressmen and with the people that make the laws and with a really active guild. We can all come together and make these things happen really fast in real time almost. I don't think you have that luxury in other states. So I think that's how Maine has been able to stay ahead of the curve on some of these trends and to stay like just railroading forward by working together so strongly because it's small, it's tight knit. You want your neighbor to succeed. Everyone's going to end up working for everyone else somehow or knows everyone else within one degree of separation. So I just think overall that lifts it quickly and we've been able to rise quickly. So I think this trend of down will be down everywhere. But I was just in Asheville. Their beer scene was thriving, you know, there was still lines and stuff. And I was like, oh, that's so cute, you know, but like, I hope it stays that way. When were you in Asheville? Like post storm? Yeah, like Billy Strings, like a month ago. Oh, wow. And yet that part is devastating. But the beer people are there, open and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and making people happy and out there, you know, doing their hospitality thing to make people feel as normal as possible. That's so great to hear. Yeah. Because we've been in touch with Leah Wong Ashburn of Highland quite a bit since the storm happened. And she really kind of put out the call like, hey, if you wanted to visit Asheville for the beer scene, like we're open for business and we need your support. That's where we went. I love that. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the other thing that's interesting to me about Maine is that you do have Portland, which is a lovely city. I would move here tomorrow. Right. But it gives you like kind of like a home base where, you know, breweries will start here and open here. And we talked about the hermit crabbing. There's Industrial Way. There's a bunch of other spots where, you know, everybody kind of collaborates. That's not the word I wanted to use where everybody, you know, collides but not, it's not friction. There's not that competitive nature that there is in some other states. It's super friendly. Yeah. But people open like satellite locations outside of Portland. Yeah. But you do have this home base where everybody can get together and And that was evidence last night. You know, it was wall to wall and everyone was an owner or a head brewer or a buyer. And that's huge to see them all together in one room. All three distributors were here getting along, having drinks together, buying each other's beer, trying the new beer together. That's a huge message. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that's like one of the things to me that is unique about beer relative to other industries is how friendly and collaborative everybody is when they really could go hard competitive But they don't, that's not the vibe. I've been in other markets where it's like that though, like Syracuse. If you work for one distributor and got caught drinking another distributor's beer, you could be fired. Oh my goodness. Fascinating. I've seen it. So I went to SU. Oh yeah. But I was so fun. It was so fun. So the Tusk was my bar and it was kind of an inspiration for me. Mike has always been a friend and this was an inspiration. of that place. To hear like that competitive nature, that's crazy to me. Oh, underneath it was cutthroat and I loved it. Wild. Because I was in my 20s. It was fun to watch people like, what? Yeah. Is it real? You guys are fighting over fake stuff? I love it. So girly. But yeah, like that's definitely not the vibe here in Maine. No, no, you bend over backwards. And I came through, I worked for Shipyard, so that was who I cut my teeth through here in Maine. But working for them and then having that kind of like godfather experience and then being able to work with all these guys brand new was so fun. Yeah, I mean, you've really seen the industry from all angles. Yeah. Which I think made you really well equipped to be where you are right now. And keep adapting. You know, I never went over on the amount of taps. I started at 10 and went to 14, but I knew you just got to keep it fresh. You've got to keep it rotated. You can do what you can within those 14 lines to really bang it out. It's a tough time in the on-premise right now. I don't know if tough's the right word, but it's definitely changing. And I think some Craft Brew bars we've seen are closing, going out, some after decades. Which is scary, I think, if you're a brewer, to think you reliably have these channels that you could always sell a few kegs to. But what are misconceptions do you think brewers have about the beer bar class of trade? We can't solve everything. Yeah. And we also are just here to reflect what the customers want. You know, so I don't like ciders. I don't like Belgian yeast strains, but that doesn't mean I won't always have those on because they sell. That's what the customer wants. You do what they want. You watch what they need. You know, now there's less kids wanting that beer flavor. We're mixing the prosecco with the fruited sour. It's called a fruit secco, but that's getting some younger, oh, I like mimosas, but I'm not sure about beer. We're getting them into it and into the realm where it's like, I'm going to do anything I can to sell these people's beer. I've already committed to working with them. I want to sell beer. Yeah. Amazing. I don't want it to go away. So if I just stay that naive, maybe it'll be okay. Well, Allison, this has been an awesome conversation. I always love getting in a chat with people who are on the front lines of the retail tier. So loved you having us back to the Thirsty Pig in the light of day. Just so honored. What a professional organization and I love that I'm talking to two just skilled women that are involved with it. It's such a treat for me. It's more and more and I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for your time. We are so excited to be at Orange Bike Brewing here in Portland with founder and CEO Tom Raft. Tom, how you doing?

[00:47:21] Zoe Licata: I'm doing great. I'm happy you're here.

[00:47:23] Jess Infante: Yeah. Well, thanks for making the time for us because we know you're busy. You know, we were all at the summit this morning, but I really wanted to talk with you because we hear so much about Orange Bike and that's because you're filling a very important role in the craft scene, which is providing a gluten-free Craft Brew for people. Well, for everybody, but specifically for people who can't have gluten anymore, you're giving them something they can drink, which is great.

[00:47:44] Zoe Licata: Yeah.

[00:47:45] Jess Infante: So tell us a little bit about your story and how you got here, basically.

[00:47:49] Zoe Licata: So, yeah, I used to be a Craft Brew lover. Roughly four and a half years ago, my body imploded, started having a lot of health issues, stomach issues, arthritis, inflammation. My throat was swelling up, food was getting stuck in my throat, my eyelids swollen shut. Doctors thought I had Lyme disease, autoimmune disease, Crohn's disease. My stomach got so bad with IBS. And unfortunately, I was still getting sick and nothing was working. And I called my nutritionist friend in California, who I've known for close to 40 years. And within minutes of me explaining my symptoms, she knew immediately that it was the gluten. and she trained me on cross-contamination, reading labels, and what to do, and I never thought of it. I grew up, we have a family farm back in Indiana, it's been in the family 118 years, you know, living a very, very glutinous lifestyle, never had issues until age 54. But within seven, roughly six to seven months of removing all gluten from my diet with this strict gluten-free diet, every single symptom went away. Wow. Changed my life. I was never a really heavy drinker. I'm more of a social drinker on occasions. I just love the whole Craft Brew experience. You know, I get a great beer. Pliny the Elder was my go-to. Whenever I got a bottle of that, I got my Tiku out, my fancy glass, I'd pour it. I was the beer nerd that took the pictures of it in the glass, the aroma. I had my friends over and we shared the beer together, but it was the whole Craft Brew experience. And I just loved that. But it made me realize that one of my favorite passions was now taken away from me and there was no good gluten-free beer that I had access to. And that's when I was able to get, I actually, two beers were shipped to me from the West Coast, one from Ghostfish in Seattle, and then another one from Holidayly. Karen Hertz, the founder, actually, I'd reached out to her and very graciously she got some Holidayly beer to me. After trying their beers, that's when the light bulb went off. Like actually someone out there is making a delicious beer that happens to be gluten free. And that was kind of the big thing. And I reached out to Sean Sullivan, the former head of the Maine Brewers Guild. And I met with him, I sat down for probably close to three hours, shared the idea, and Sean, you know, the foresight for him, he's like, there has never been a bigger need for a gluten-free brewery, especially here in Maine, you know, top three, top two beer mecca in the United States, I think per capita we're number two right now in the United States. But this was before Lucky Pigeon opened down in Biddeford. Lucky Pigeon was the first dedicated gluten-free brewery in Maine and we're the second, you know, thankfully within 30 minutes of each other. And there's only 14 dedicated gluten-free breweries in the entire United States. Wow. Versus 10,000 plus now, according to Sam this morning. So yeah, real niche. Sean introduced me to Alan Pugsley, who, if you're not familiar, David Geary recruited Pugsley to Maine in 1984, I believe, to start Geary's. And then he started Gritty's, and then with Fred Forsley, co-founded Shipyard. And Alan's helped open, we're actually Alan's 100th brewery around the world that he's helped to open. We're grateful to have Alan Pugsley on board and that's how Orange Bike Brewing came to existence.

[00:51:23] Jess Infante: Yeah, when you're so connected to the rest of Maine Brewers, which has been another theme of the conversations we've been having this week is what a tight community we have up here. When Zoe and I got here, we chatted with Christian and he told us that you opened in November of 2023. So you're about a year and a half in. When you think about your taproom guests, How many of them need to have gluten-free beer versus, you know, want to hang out with somebody who needs to have gluten-free beer?

[00:51:48] Zoe Licata: Yeah, that's a great question. And that was kind of our big aha moment and some call it an earned secret that we weren't anticipating. We knew that the gluten-free community would freak out because there's very few options. Like I said, only 14 in the whole country. But what we weren't accounting for were all the people that don't have gluten issues that just love our beer. And we've been keeping informal tallies, I personally have over the last six months, and roughly 50-50, 50% of our regulars don't have gluten issues. Of that 50% of regulars that don't have gluten issues, The aha moment was roughly at half of those. After drinking our beer, they comment repeatedly, they don't feel bloated, they don't feel full, and they don't have the digestive issues, and maybe it is the gluten that makes them feel that way.

[00:52:47] Jess Infante: Well, so you mentioned all the grains that you brew with, buckwheat, millet, Fonio. What kind of flavors do those impart?

[00:52:54] Zoe Licata: They impart the exact same flavors, regular beer. That's amazing. Yeah. The quality QC program. So Jason Kissinger, our head brewer, actually studied under Pugsley at Davidson Brothers in New York 15 years ago. And then Jason moved to Maine and we hired him as our head brewer. And then we brought over another really talented brewer from Mass Landing, Kara Evans, about five months ago. And that was a funny story. When I first met Pugsley, I'll come back to that. The first time he brewed the first recipe for us, when I had it, I had to take my family out because I was so nervous and scared. Because if it wasn't good, I just couldn't go all in to start this brewery. And I tasted the beer and I looked at my wife and Pugsley and And I just started like high-fiving, hugging, and I freaked out. I'm like, this is the beer that I used to drink. It's delicious beer, and it's freaking gluten-free. And that was my big thing. If I had to compromise like flavor to start this brewery, I just couldn't go all in with my heart and my values and my ethos. So thankfully, we don't have to compromise and our guests don't have to compromise. It's just great beer that's gluten-free, naturally.

[00:54:04] Jess Infante: That's huge. I mean, when you talked about you tasting the beer for the first time with Alan and your family and the high fives and the hugs, I imagine it must be really gratifying for you to see your guests have that same reaction. Everybody gets that moment.

[00:54:17] Zoe Licata: Yeah, we, I wouldn't say weekly, but I'd say monthly, there's a moment where emotions, tears, couples reunited over beer, which they had in one of our favorite, I'll give you the short story, but I tell this all the time, it was actually in the local news, Steve and Sylvia Dion, they met at a big beer festival here in Maine. They actually met at this beer festival 20 plus years ago, fell in love, and that was their thing, to travel Maine and visit breweries together. And I think a year and a half, two years after they met, she was diagnosed celiac. And that was taken away from them. They couldn't do it anymore because places didn't have gluten-free beer. So shortly after our grand opening, there was a couple down at the end of the bar and they sat here for, I'm guessing, four hours. And smiling, laughing, beer after beer. hugging, just holding each other. I mean, it was the sweetest thing. And at the end of the night, or towards the end of the night, one of our team went over and asked, and they shared their story that they had met at this Craft Brew festival for 18 years. This experience being together in a brewery, sitting at the bar, drinking a beer on draft for the first time in 18 years, they were able to do one of their favorite things again together. And Steve was very emotional about it and, and they become some of our best friends and just incredible couple. But we have these stories on a weekly basis and it's remarkable.

[00:55:46] Jess Infante: I love that. So you talked about it's world-class beer, happens to be gluten-free. When you're out in the trade and talking to wholesalers and retailers, are you guys self-distributed?

[00:55:57] Zoe Licata: We're self-distributing. So we got into 104 accounts in our very first year.

[00:56:02] Jess Infante: Oh my God.

[00:56:03] Zoe Licata: So yeah, this year we're doubling our wholesale business all through self-distribution for the time being.

[00:56:08] Jess Infante: Wow. So when you're having those conversations with retailers, how do you approach it? Do you tell them like world-class beer that happens to be gluten-free or do you lead with gluten-free in those situations?

[00:56:17] Zoe Licata: Yeah, it's interesting because that dynamic has changed. Early on, we were leading with the gluten-free and, you know, mixed feedback when we lead with the gluten-free. Some of the retailers were stoked. because their customers had been asking for gluten-free for years and they didn't have anything to provide to them. And now again, thankfully with Lucky Pigeon coming before us and then us, it's become a lot more popular. But now, not to sound cocky or arrogant, like word has gotten out, like with the quality of our beer. And so I'd say lately, probably 50% of our new accounts are folks calling in to carry our business.

[00:56:59] Jess Infante: So beer aside, I know something that's really important Orange Bike is a lot of your sustainability work, like you mentioned, your social justice work, you're part of 1% for the Planet. What does all of that mean to you and how do you as the leader of this company live it as an example for the staff?

[00:57:15] Zoe Licata: Yeah, so community centric, we're a triple bottom line company, people, planet profit. And we're trying to show that you can do good and do well, you know, financially be profitable, but also do good in the world. It used to be a either or with nonprofits and businesses. And we're following that triple bottom line ethos. And if you're familiar with B Corp certification, we've been working on our B Corp certification for close to three years, actually Christian. is leading our team for our B Corp certification and he's presenting to our board of directors March 21st. Hopefully the final presentation to submit for our actual B Corp certification. So yeah, that has been very important to us. We're actually partially backed by the state of Maine, the Maine Venture Fund invested in our brewery. So we are getting a lot of state government support. We've met with all the congressional leaders, We got to meet Angus King, Governor Mills. We've met with folks from the White House. We now have 12 universities and 56 college students have been a part of our brewery project over the last two years. So having those interns be a part has been really important to us. And then on the social justice side, our work with the National Black Brewers Association, we're members of the Black Brewers Association as a white guy. You know, the partnership there is really important to us to amplify the black brewers in the United States. In a 30 plus billion dollar industry, I'm sure you're familiar, .04% is black owned in a 32 billion dollar industry. We're helping support their initiative to launch the first black-owned brewery in the state of Maine, which we're really excited and proud to work with. We just released our Black is Beautiful two weeks ago to support the National Black Brewers Association as well. But long story short, we're proud of this work that we're doing and the community is responding to companies that stand for something more than just profit in the bottom line. We have a fiscal responsibility, you know, to our shareholders and stakeholders to watch our fiscal side of the business as well. But we're showing that you can do both and be quote unquote successful. So we're really proud of that.

[00:59:33] Jess Infante: Tom, it's been awesome chatting with you and visiting Orange Bike and hearing more about your story because we were familiar with you, you know, through the beer community, but there's nothing like sitting down together. As a past beer drinker and now a beer drinker once again, what styles do you think really translate well in the world of gluten-free beer?

[00:59:56] Zoe Licata: Yeah, so early on, we did find, it was kind of a mix with the loggers, the light and the dark. We were having better luck with the dark styles, the ambers and the English. We actually have one of Pugsley's original ESB recipes, our English special ale, but it's in the ESB wheelhouse, which by the way, It's probably of our 64 unique recipes, I think possibly my overall favorite. I absolutely love this beer.

[01:00:31] Jess Infante: Bold claim, but I believe you.

[01:00:32] Zoe Licata: Yeah. But as time went on and Jason and Cara and Pugsley started dialing in our recipes, we're actually turning into a lager house. Like we're having remarkable results with our lagers. Our Pilsner is our flagship. We have a Helles lager that sold out that we're putting back on as well. We just did our first light lager. So we're getting one under 100 calories as well. And we're starting to implement rice and brown rice to our regime more and getting really, really great results with this, both from a flavor. standpoint, but also with head retention and the yields. So yeah, we're actually turning into more of a logger house, which is surprising because, you know, Pugsley talked about that early on. A lot of the New England IPAs, the hazy, crazy IPAs, a lot of those, there's so many different things going on. You can't really tell like the core, but with the pilsners and the lagers, just the pure, you cannot mask imperfection. And for our brewing team to be able to dial that in and have our pilsner be, you know, one of the top pilsners with gluten in the pilsner category for me was a very, very proud moment. So I don't know if that answers But yeah, back to Pugsley's original. Oh, that was the story. I was so excited about that first beer he brewed for us. And then his second recipe, I was so excited. Third one, I was so excited. And I started asking Alan, like, Alan, can you do like a Pliny the Elder? Can you do like, again, it's a nitro stout. And after like the sixth question, cause I was just asking for some of the stuff that I miss more than anything. I think after the sixth time Pugsley stopped me in his serious, British voice, Tom, I can make any beer that you want. And it was just such a profound moment that he truly could make any beer that I want, gluten free. And that to me, like, talk about mind blown. It was, I'll never forget when he shared that. And that's when I realized the opportunity in front of us, like, we can make any beer, period, you know? I don't know, it was just mind-blowing. And I'm still kind of blown by it because our brew team, I think Jason said we're up to 128 different recipes that they've developed. I think of those 64 unique recipes, some just iterations. But yeah, we're more than double, if not triple ahead of where we had thought we would be with recipe development. Our brewing team is brilliant. Like half the stuff they tell me is so over my head. I don't know what the hell they're talking about. They're so smart. Like I said, I'm just the sales guy.

[01:03:15] Jess Infante: Well, it's amazing to meet you and chat with you. I'm so glad you made time for us because we know how busy you are and we can't wait to see what's next.

[01:03:21] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Thanks a lot for coming out. It means a lot. I follow all your stuff. I read all your stuff and it's kind of surreal to have you sitting here at Orange Bike Brewing. So thank you.

[01:03:29] Jess Infante: Thank you.

[01:03:31] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Jess and Zoe for all they do. Thanks to our one-man audio team, Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.