NB2A’s Kevin Asato on Supporting Black Brewers in Tough Times; Yonder Cider’s Caitlin Braam on Speaking to Many Audiences

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Hello, and welcome to a special edition of the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall, the editor of Brewbound. And this week, we're bringing you a bonus podcast, featuring a pair of conversations recorded on the Brew Expo floor of the Craft Brewers Conference in Indianapolis. This week, you'll hear from Kevin Asato, Executive Director of the National Black Brewers Association. Kevin will discuss the latest efforts at the trade group, as well as his response to challenges to diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. And then Yonder Cider founder Caitlin Braam will discuss the importance of forging community connections through taprooms and events, as well as why branding is essential. Again, this is a special bonus episode of the podcast. Look for this week's regularly scheduled Brewbound Podcast to hit your feeds midweek, featuring a conversation with Chicago-based consulting firm Three Tier Beverages on the craft landscape, innovation, pricing, and earlier trends. So with that, let's get to our first interview.

[00:01:45] Brew Expo: Hey, it is Brewbound managing editor Jessica Infante here on the trade show floor at the Craft Brewers Conference with our next guest, who I think truly needs no introduction. But if you happen to live under a rock and you're not familiar with Kevin Asato, the executive director of the National Black Brewers Association, I have a treat for you. He is with us right now, Kevin.

[00:02:02] Craft Brewers: Hello, hello, hello. Oh, how are you doing? I am doing exceptionally well in this beautiful Indianapolis space there, huh?

[00:02:09] Brew Expo: I, convention centers are, they're weird to me. They're like weird liminal spaces where you spend, I don't know. I don't need to get philosophical on convention centers. As convention centers go, this is a nice one.

[00:02:22] Craft Brewers: Oh, I gotta, I just been about 20 years since I've been in Indianapolis and boy, has it grown up. It looks great. The city's fantastic. The hospitality is great. The people are fantastic. So I'm, I'm liking this so far.

[00:02:32] Brew Expo: Great. This is my first new state in like several years. Wow. Yeah. So I was excited to add a new one, but. So the MB2A, you guys almost two years old?

[00:02:44] Craft Brewers: Actually, our coming out party, or I like to say our coming out party, was in Nashville. So yeah, two years when we came out, even though we started a little bit before that. But yeah, this is basically our two-year birthday.

[00:02:55] Brew Expo: Yay! Yay! Happy birthday! I was not there for your arrival because I was about to actually give birth.

[00:03:03] Craft Brewers: Yeah, you were. Yes. You can bring in, match our age to your child's age. I really can.

[00:03:09] Brew Expo: Like, hey, Cora, how do you feel about a joint birthday this year?

[00:03:13] Craft Brewers: Never mind all these Black people in there joining you. No big deal. This is just your extended family. Exactly.

[00:03:19] Brew Expo: So how many members are you up to right now?

[00:03:22] Craft Brewers: We have 86 Black owned breweries there and we're just under 400 members total.

[00:03:26] Brew Expo: Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:27] Craft Brewers: So it's still growing, you know, little by little, little by little as we continue to get the word out. You know, this is, you know, one of these beautiful things that it doesn't happen overnight. You know, and of course, if we had a much larger budget, I'd have a bigger microphone. to be able to get the word out that much further and faster.

[00:03:43] Brew Expo: So I know we've got a lot to dive in here, but you know, of the things that like we chatted about what we're going to chat about, I do want to start with, I feel like the conversations around CBC right now and just around beer in general is things are tough. And how is the organization supporting members during the challenging times that we're facing?

[00:04:03] Craft Brewers: Things are tough. Life is tough. But the beautiful thing about our association and about us and even all the talk about DEI going away, the beautiful thing is, you know, I was black yesterday. I'm black today, and God willing, I wake up tomorrow, I'll be black tomorrow. But the point being there that just because there isn't a tagline like DEI available, doesn't mean that our challenges and our need for diversity and our need to help our black brewers in this space has ever gone away. Nothing has changed. Not a single thing has changed for our space here. So sure, you know, the new You know, administration may make some changes around federal grants, you know, thus, you know, making perhaps some challenges, you know, in access to cash a bit more challenging than we once saw.

[00:04:52] Brew Expo: But for us, there's no change. Our challenges still exist. As challenging as everybody else might be at this time, those challenges are usually even tougher for your members due to a bunch of structural things that seem to never move.

[00:05:07] Craft Brewers: Yeah. Well, the crazy thing is maybe it's because, you know, if if you start doing pushups today and never having doing pushups, you're going to be in sore tomorrow. Right. So it's a new skill set you're learning. We've been going through this for a long time. So even with the absence of this tough times, sadly, are familiar. So we're a little bit prepared, kind of got the muscles built to keep on weathering through this. But we're not, you know, impervious to all that's taken place. Sure, we've had some of our black owned breweries close as well, right? You know, consistent with what the total industry is seeing. But we've also had some open. You know, and as I'm just now collecting the data and reviewing the data, you know, last year at the CBC, we launched our, you know, saying our State of the Black Brewery Report is coming out. And there was a lot of great information, a lot of green shoots showing up there. And the fact that black owned breweries were still growing for the most part. As I'm looking up this year's data, We're still seeing a lot of good stuff happening there. So, you know, we are capable of working through some of the challenges there. We're not impervious to all the challenges, but most certainly capable. And so our team is, you know, laying into what's precisely what matters most to them, their culture and making great beer. And when you stay true like that, it's tough not to be successful.

[00:06:26] Brew Expo: Yeah. I mean, that's all super hard to argue with. Now, one thing I know that the MB2A has been really successful the past year, two years is equipment donation grants. You know, like that's such a huge thing where, you know, I mean, tell the people.

[00:06:42] Craft Brewers: I gotta tell you, this has been, you know, last year, Vinny and Natalie Salerzo out of Russian River, you know, donated, you know, the very first brew house that created Pliny the Elder. I mean, that magical piece of equipment was donated to, you know, John Renthorpe, our current president. And, you know, we had a canning line from Optimism Brewing. And so the equipment donations continue to be such a key and significant portion of one of our programs. And so I'll, you know, I'll reach out to those listeners out there right now. We understand times are tough, we understand capacity is out there, but please, if you have a brewhouse unit that perhaps you may need to find a financial benefit from, then a donation, it may be an avenue for you. And a donation to the NB2A, we can help you source and find a partner or a recipient. We have some additional partners that can help in the installation, but more importantly, you could also realize a tax benefit from that donation.

[00:07:35] Brew Expo: Which is huge. I mean, like you said, the capacity is out there and a lot of people are trying to figure out what exactly to do with this equipment. And I can't think of anything better to do with that than that.

[00:07:45] Craft Brewers: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:47] Brew Expo: Yeah. Great. And you also you talked a little bit about Phonio, which Brewbound named as new product of the year in 2024. Zoe did the work on that. I should really research my own publications awards before I start talking about them.

[00:08:03] Craft Brewers: Well, kudos to Brew Round staying on top of the things that are, you know, mattering most. And it kind of falls right into, you know, what the NB2A is focusing on this year. Last year, we spent a lot of time creating unique events for us at industry specific events. You know, like last year at CBC, we had our own tap takeover and things like that.

[00:08:23] Brew Expo: Which was, I think, the best party I went to last year.

[00:08:26] Craft Brewers: Awesome. Just too kind. Entirely too kind.

[00:08:28] Brew Expo: I mean, I also don't get out much, so I don't know what that's saying. But no, it was a great time.

[00:08:34] Craft Brewers: I'll take the compliment, absolutely. But this year we are supporting those existing black events, those activities already taking place, those organizations that are already doing things there. We're using our voice, we're using our resources to amplify precisely what they're doing. So like at this year, you know, we have Garrett Oliver's MJF Foundation. They have a check writing ceremony taking place tomorrow from six to eight. And this is one of those things where I'm just like, yes, Let's bring our members down. Let's have our meetup there. Let's have everybody come together so we can build that excitement around an existing event rather than drawing from and pulling away from. But as I talk about Garrett specifically there and Brew Brown's connection to Fonio, we see what Fonio is doing. And for those of you that aren't terribly familiar, just look it up, you know, GGS it, Google that. Oh, I held it. I held it. I'm a little slow.

[00:09:23] Brew Expo: Yeah, I got it. I get what you mean.

[00:09:26] Craft Brewers: But Fonio is one of these things that Garrett Oliver has really in there in the work with Brooklyn Brewery. So thank God for Brooklyn Brewery, you know, seeing Garrett's vision as well. He is. really bringing this grain to life. I mean, he's had the Carlsberg Brewery brew it. He's had the Guinness Brewery do it. He has his own brewery. And now he has the Fonio Rising coming out there. Seeing how that's growing, this is something that our board said, wow, this may be something that we want to actually further support. And we will likely support this. And I say likely, you know, wink wink. But Black is Beautiful Volume 3. Oh, may have touch points with Fonio in it.

[00:10:07] Three Tier: This episode is brought to you by the Craft Brewers Conference, where big ideas, bold beers, and brutally honest shop talk collide. Join thousands of industry pros leveling up their game. Don't miss it. Register now at CraftBrewersConference.com.

[00:10:29] Brew Expo: So let's talk about the Black is Beautiful program because I remember when it all started, but it's evolved a little bit. So what does it look like today and how are members involved and how can other breweries join the cause?

[00:10:40] Craft Brewers: So Black is Beautiful, the initiative, is still one of our key initiatives there. It's our collaboration effort to bring all brewers together on our particular piece there. But you're right, it has evolved. When Marcus Baskerville first created this, it was to drive awareness at a heightened and very sensitive time of the 2020 murders. And it was his effort that created this. And the effort is still there. And I'd say that perhaps the The sensitivities were so high and the public appetite for doing something better was so high that made that program really, really, really successful. We definitely had a transition down in terms of the visibility and dare I say perhaps a touch of the fatigue. So we didn't see that same, we saw diminishing returns on volume two. And there's just a lot more collaborations taking place out there. That's why we're looking to actually kickstart it. And I can't give you all the bells and whistles behind it, but volume three is meant to have a big, big, big, significant shift. We would still be a collaboration brew, but we're looking for a national partner. that makes this available to national retailers. Yeah, so there are some definite national partners that have not only expressed interest that we've had healthy dialogue that, oh boy, it feels really good. So I think you're going to see something very, you know, fun and exciting for Black's Beautiful Volume 3. Once again, the proceeds go towards, you know, our education grants as well as our equipment grants and activities that take place.

[00:12:11] Brew Expo: I cannot wait to see more. And I do want to circle back a little bit, because you brought it up in the very beginning, but DEI is under attack right now from the current administration. And that has made a lot of wonky things kind of happen in the world, like Target walking away from their DEI program, and then in turn getting completely boycotted. And their traffic is down week over week over week. So clearly this is something that some people are paying attention to and some aren't. As an organization that is dedicated to helping support one particular underrepresented sect of business owners, you say this doesn't really matter because you'll be here today, you were here yesterday, and you'll be here tomorrow. But what does the organization have to do differently right now? Has this changed the way that you operate?

[00:12:57] Craft Brewers: Maybe it doesn't change our game plan, but it most certainly gives us more fighting fuel, you know? And it gives us that additional energy. When you start seeing that, great, got it. You're taking away some of the outlets that couldn't make our brand successful. Fine, let's just dig in a little deeper, a little harder for the partners that are working with us and for those that we aspire to be in still. So if anything, it gives us a little shot in the arm to dig down even harder and fight even harder. Our tactics don't change. You know, these challenges that we're realizing, you know, with Target walking away, I mean, still means that there's a Costco out there. And Costco is saying, hey, we're doubling down. We're going all in on this program there. The Whole Foods of the world, you know, Justin Ray and Mary Guyver and that beer team, man, they're still supportive of everything that we're doing and everything, you know, of the DEI platform. So, you know, for every Target, I'd say that there's still two to three Whole Foods and Costco's out there.

[00:13:54] Brew Expo: Yeah, and I mean, if my Costco is any indication, business is great for them.

[00:13:59] Craft Brewers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, there's still a lot of work for us to do for those players.

[00:14:04] Brew Expo: Well, what can people who want to support the NB2A do to support? I know what you're going to say, but I want you to say it.

[00:14:10] Craft Brewers: always. First, I will always tell you, always, always, always go to nb2a.org. That is our website. And from there, it does two things in particular. One, you have a brewery, excuse me, a brewery directory to find all Black-owned breweries across the country, right? So, and the most important thing of that action is to support those brands, right? Know where those brands are at, support those brands, visit their tap rooms and brew pubs, buy their beer, that's always a key factor. Secondly, support in any way you can see possible, whether it's a financial donation, you could donate right on our website. These are tax deductible components as well, so that's the newest thing that we've added. But, you know, so if it's not a financial donation, maybe it's an equipment donation, maybe it's your services even. So there can be services available that can be made available to our membership that we definitely benefit from. So please don't limit yourself. And if you just have a question about what to do, reach out to me. I'm easy.

[00:15:08] Brew Expo: But also anybody can join the MB2A. Anyone can become a member.

[00:15:12] Craft Brewers: Absolutely so true there. I mean, you know, while we do benefit in our primary movement is to increase the number of black owned breweries. Jessica, you're 100 percent correct. Anyone can be a member. It doesn't mean that you have to be black to be a member. It just simply means that you're a supporter. You're a supporter of the work that we're doing, supporter to see that we want to have diversity in the beer industry. I think that just goes right back to, you know, going back to what I talked about before. You know, when you're asking the questions about DEI, I go back to a very couple key nuggets that always keep me excited. About 70% of the consumer population is either female or people of color. 70%! So if Target walks away from that, that's them making a business choice, that's fine. But when you have 70% of the people buying and shopping, doing the work, you can't really alienate them. And so going into even what we're talking about, what we are doing. Beyond just increasing the number of black-owned breweries, we are also actively building the black beer community. And so we're trying to educate more and more people of color, not just black people, of color, that beer is good. And this is where we under-index, and this is where, quite frankly, the industry benefits. As the industry is scratching their head going, wow, we're seeing downturns. We're seeing people leave the category, maybe to spirits or maybe to THC products or any of these other elements there. There's a whole audience of people that have yet to be recruited into this space. And that is approximately the 16 million people of color who drink, but don't drink beer. 16 million people. And the reason why that's so relevant is because African-Americans and Black people are under indexed in terms of beer consumption when it comes to adult beverage consumption. And we're the only demographic that has that piece there. And it's large part because we've never given the bulk of our population an opportunity to learn and become acquainted with beer, bolder flavors and, you know, these different styles, whether it's a coles or whether it's a porter or stout, we've never really had that opportunity to teach that community. But that's what craft, you know, that's what brew pubs do. So that's what I'm saying. The call to action is having more black owned breweries so we can invite a larger audience of people into the beer industry. That's where this whole thing can actually end up.

[00:17:35] Brew Expo: Yeah. I mean, 16 million is two New York cities. That's a lot of people. I mean, the thing, you know, like you said, like beer right now as a whole, not just craft. Everybody is kind of scratching their heads and thinking, hey, like we're selling less. And what is happening and where are people going? It's like, well, we focused on one group of people for decades at the expense of a lot of other people. So true. And when that one group of people you paid attention to are distracted by who knows what spirits, cannabis, not drinking at all, many other things. Well, there's a whole lot of people that have been ignored.

[00:18:12] Craft Brewers: Yeah. And give them the opportunity to learn more about beer in an environment that they feel comfortable doing it. Right. Which is what. you know, the brew pub was all about, right? You know, they were popping up in the most rural, the most remote locations, but they were the community coming together and can easily say, oh, I don't know if I've ever tried this style of beer, but let me give it a try. And I don't have to order a six pack to give it a try. I can just order maybe a four ounce tester, you know? So these, you know, brew pubs, these Craft Brewers, you know, opportunities to bring community together and to drive education is the way to recruit a whole new audience into the beer category.

[00:18:49] Brew Expo: Amazing. Well, my friend, it is always a delight to speak with you. And I'm so glad you took the time to chat with us because I know you're busy.

[00:18:55] Craft Brewers: So always pleased to stop by and talk to you and the entire team. So thank you both so much for having me. I love working with you guys. Thank you.

[00:19:05] Brewbound Podcast: I am back on the CBC floor with Caitlin Brown, the founder and owner of Yonder Cider. Welcome, Caitlin. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. You're a familiar face and voice to most of our Brewbound listeners. You were on stage for us before. You've been here. I have. I always enjoy it.

[00:19:19] National Black: How's your CBC going so far? It's been great. It's just, it's always so much fun to get together with everyone, see people I haven't seen in almost a year since last CBC. And it's just the energy is really great this year. It's exciting to see. And you got to give a talk this year.

[00:19:33] Brewbound Podcast: It happened yesterday as we're recording this.

[00:19:35] National Black: How are you feeling? How did it go? It was great. I was very nervous because I spoke last year, but I was on a panel. And so this year it was just me. And I wasn't talking about cider this year. I was talking about marketing and what you do with make a great beverage. What do you do after that? And so I think it was well received. I saw a lot of nodding heads and smiles and a couple of people laughed at my joke. So I'll take that. But I think overall, the message was received well.

[00:20:00] Brewbound Podcast: For context here, you founded Yonder Cider, but you have been in beverage alcohol for a while. You've been at some pretty well-known names. So you know how to operate not just in the cider world, but in kind of total beverage alcohol. So you had some things you could actually share with folks.

[00:20:17] National Black: Yeah, equal opportunity drinker, equal opportunity marketer of beverages over here. And so it was, yeah, I prefaced the whole talk being like, I am a cider person now, but I haven't always been a cider person. But everything I presented was applicable to any type of beverage, whether making seltzers, ciders, beer, whatever it is. And I hope people took away some interesting things or maybe even just reminders of things they wanted to do or were doing once and should do again. And that's what my hope was for it.

[00:20:44] Brewbound Podcast: One of the things that stuck out to me was you really emphasized how important it is to have brand trust and brand recognition. It's like making sure people know what your brand is, can find it, can point it out, and can kind of just like associate themselves with it, right? Whether it's drinking the products, whether it's wearing the merchandise. You guys have great merch that you talked about. I may personally have some myself. How would you describe like what that brand recognition is for Yonder?

[00:21:12] National Black: For Yonder in particular, so something not everybody knows about me is I don't make cider. And so I've always been a branding person, a marketing person, a PR person, but I love flavors, I love blending, and I love working with my cider makers. But for Yonder, we know we make great cider. But what's going to bring people back time and time again? What's going to make them show up to the taproom, wear the merch, and every time they see a new Yonder on the shelf, pick it up. And the thing is that they trust it. They can trust that it's going to be good, but they can also easily recognize that it's a new product and it's a yonder product from us. And so for us, that's huge. We've always got the big yonder down the side. Our year-ons and seasonals are always two-tone. People can order them by their names, but a lot of people order them by their colors. They're like, I want the blue one, the purple one. So also meeting people where they're at in that respect, whatever makes it easier for them to order our cider. Sounds great to me. But then also having fun. And again, people knowing that they can pick up a yonder and they know what they're going to get. They know it's going to be a dry cider. They know it's going to be delicious and they know they can trust it from us.

[00:22:13] Brewbound Podcast: And you still carry over some of that recognition when you do a lot of collaborations and some limited releases. How do you keep that present while also, you know, emphasizing whatever the collaboration project is?

[00:22:24] National Black: For sure. So it's the big yonder down the side. Always. Every single can we have does that. So we get the, as I lovingly call it, the mullet can effect, where it's business on the front, says all the details about the cider, party on the back, the really big yonder. And so that keeps it consistent, whether it's got flowers on the can, whether it's got smiley faces on the can, whatever it has on it, it still says yonder big and bold, so people always know it's us. And they always know we're coming out with something new. And those limited releases also are quick drops. We don't keep making them. We make just enough as we want to make, and then we sell it, and people find it, and it's gone until the next year. So that works out really well for us.

[00:23:00] Brewbound Podcast: Another thing you said yesterday was you want to make sure things are targeted, but not exclusive. We have had tons of conversations with your folks at this event and several other events about having to know who your consumer is to make sure you have that kind of targeted consumer approach. But there is a balance there, right? You don't want to exclude people. So how do you find what that balance is?

[00:23:24] National Black: we're trying to get more people to drink cider in here. Like we're trying to get more people to do this. So if you only pick the people that are super knowledgeable about it, you're excluding a huge demographic that you could be speaking to, maybe not from a cider standpoint always, but from a brand standpoint. And so we try and find these different ways. I call it like the Three Tier of yonder education. It's like the casual consumer who's just there for the cute can and the cool sweatshirt, right? And then we've got the person that's like curious about it, wants to know about the apples we're using, wants to know about, you know, how we're making stuff, where we're making it, where the apples are coming from. And then we've got the experts that are only drinking the single varietals. They're very particular, and they know a lot, and they are down to talk with me about Daubinette apples. And I'm in for that. And so it's just meeting people where they're at, but also creating spaces and places that are welcoming and easy. And if somebody walks into our taproom, which we have beer and cider, beer from Bale Breaker Brewing, and then cider from Yonder, they can look at the Bale Breaker sign and be like, I know this, I love this, these are amazing, but what's this whole other side of the board? And do it in a way that they feel confident and that the bartenders are going to guide them through these 16 ciders on the taproom board and be excited about it as they go.

[00:24:37] Brewbound Podcast: Taprooms are a huge part of brand identity and with just getting folks to recognize what your brand is, to associate themselves with that brand. And you want to encourage people to want to stay there, to hang out there. What are some of the things that you do to create that yonder experience that folks look for when they come to a taproom?

[00:25:00] National Black: For our Ballard taproom in Seattle, partnering with Bale Breaker was a huge part of that, right? Like, I know that cider is like 1% of the Craft Brewers segment. Like, that is a small percentage. And so if I'm only screaming at cider drinkers, I'm only screaming at 1% of people that are drinking beer. And so that is a really small percentage and might not be overly successful for me. So by partnering with a brewery, we get people in the door that are maybe like curious about tasting cider and they have the opportunity to, but they have a backup that they know and love to fall back on. But they can also come in with their friends and some people drink beer, some people drink cider, some people prefer slushies. And so we have all these things, and people will stick around longer. At the same time, we have A-frames, we have fire pits, we have dog costume contests. We have all of these things that speak to different audiences. And I think that's what we were mentioning yesterday, as well as talking about a minute ago, was not being exclusive. Making spaces and places for various audiences, not just one. Because there isn't just one audience for your brand. There are many, and you have to find ways to talk to them each individually.

[00:26:04] Brewbound Podcast: Totally. There were some great images of those A-frames, folks just hanging out in cold plunges and things. You were really giving anybody anything they want, I guess, at a younger taproom?

[00:26:18] National Black: To be honest, January in Seattle, it is rainy and it is not beautiful. It's the slowest month of the year for us and we know that. January is the month where we do anything we want and we try it all. This year, it was on a cold plunge. And on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, it brought tons of people in that wouldn't normally be there. Why they're cold plunging at my tap room in January is beyond me, but hey, they can hop in a sauna right after. And it's funny, I've got people in robes running around my tap room outdoors in January, and it's just a fun scene. And it's something that people are like, it's January, I'm bored. I need to get out of the house. I'm going to go do this, but I'm also going to drink a couple of ciders while I do it. And I think for us, that works. If that's what gets them in the door and they remember not only the cider they drank, but the experience they had at our tap room, that goes so far to making that brand recognition as the brand loyalty. They're going to look for our Instagram and find the new thing that we're doing and see the new thing and bring their friends and tell them friends about the thing that they did. And that for us goes so far.

[00:27:22] Brewbound Podcast: Zooming out a little bit on, I mean, you mentioned cider, it's still a very tiny part of beer, but we've been hearing rumblings for a while now, like, you know, now cider's time Yonder Cider can have its moment. What are your thoughts on just the state of where cider is right now?

[00:27:38] National Black: I have been hearing that narrative for 10 years. So yes, we're still having our moment. We're still here. We're still trying to grow and be more than the 1%. But I do think we're getting more recognition. And that could be from the fact that consumers are drinking all sorts of things and they're experimenting and they're exploring more. You know, a lot of the breweries and a lot of my accounts for Yonder are breweries. And they're our top accounts because people are going to breweries because they love the experience at the brewery or they have friends that love the beer. but they also want to drink a good cider. And so for us, you know, I do think cider is growing, and I do love that people are talking about it more, and I do love that it's a bigger part of CBC. There was judging of cider for the first year. There's a panel about making cider for brewers. I think that's tomorrow and Thursday, and I think that's exciting to see, and we're excited to be part of the conversation and be invited to the table.

[00:28:31] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, it really has kind of been a theme of this conference this year. We're kind of just open to anything now. If you can find some avenue to speak to more consumers, go for it. Just do it in a way that's best suitable for your business.

[00:28:48] National Black: 100% be authentic, be yourself. But I love this because there's always been so much siloing in the beverage industry. They're like, okay, it's beer, it's cider, it's wine, it's spirits. Why does it have to be that way? A lot of our collaborations are with breweries. distilleries, bands, and it's just fun to mix it up. And why does it have to be so siloed? It doesn't. And when you make it less siloed and you break down those walls, I think that's where a lot of the new creativity can come from, and it is coming from. I mean, things like our Velvet Cashmere and Daily Disco are totally different than what anybody thinks about cider. but people love it, and they love exploring a new beverage. And for a lot of people, it's their favorite yonder that we make. Do I make amazing single varietals and dry ciders? Yes, but there's this thing that's 10.8% that's got a marrow in it that's pretty cool that people seem to love.

[00:29:38] Brewbound Podcast: That's what you're doing. You offer cocktail recipes to make with some of Yonder Cider, which I thought was really great. You pointed out that that's not just an opportunity to upsell to a consumer to give them another occasion. That also helps connections with on-premise retailers and being like, hey, my cider can work if you want to offer these cocktails too. You're finding other avenues, other occasions to fit yourself in there.

[00:30:00] National Black: I have food recipes. I have cocktail recipes. I have, you know, cider and shot pairings. I've got cider and cheese pairings. I've got hot cider recipes because at the end of the day, it's, I've got a perfect way I want the cider poured and served, but that's not always how it's working. And every bar and restaurant and occasion is different. And so if people want to drop a shot of Fireball into their Vantage cider, go for it. I don't care if that's how you're going to enjoy it. And that makes a great pairing for you. Wonderful. But if you also want to have my cashmere Negroni inspired cider on tap and then make a beautiful cocktail with it, you can serve it in a pint or you can make a cocktail so it's upsell or you can put it in food. And I just think that is a way to keep Yonder on. Rotation Nation is real. But if I can provide an account with more reasons to keep us on, I always will.

[00:30:49] Brewbound Podcast: There's also this balance of both giving and educating consumers about the possibilities, but also paying attention to what they want. They're telling you what they want. It might not always be what we want, but that's OK.

[00:31:02] National Black: It is a hard balance. I love really dry cider. I like really acidic cider. And sometimes some of the ciders I make don't appeal to everyone. We have one called Sunny Slope and it's lemon verbena and pink grapefruit. It was one of our original seasonals. But grapefruit, and especially how pithy we had it and tart we had it, is very polarizing. And so I loved it. It had like Campari vibes to it, which is my vibe. But then it wasn't selling well in the market, except for a small subset of people that were like, I need Slutney Slope and I need it now. And so we replaced it with Mazama, which has similar ingredients, but is a touch sweeter, has pear and some of the other elements that people are looking for. It does have fennel in it, which is weird in its own right, but it's a more crowd-pleasing cider and it's still dry. So we just have to find those ways that still work for us and make us yonder, the things that make us yonder, while also making the consumer happy.

[00:31:58] Brewbound Podcast: Caitlin, I really appreciate you coming on. What should people know about cider? What are you looking forward to right now?

[00:32:03] National Black: Keep trying cider. We, you know, you go into a bar and you see 12 handles of beer because you have variety. Cider has variety too. We don't always see it because a lot of times there's Yonder Cider handle or one can placement. Yeah. So don't think that Yonder Cider on it represents all of cider. There is literally something for almost anyone. And something that we do in our tap rooms is we, if people come in and they haven't drank cider before, we're like, okay, what do you drink? Like, they're like, I drink an IPA. I'm like, okay, you should try our Sunny Slope because it has some of that like bite, that like tininess, that like pithiness. If they drink sour beers, we tell them to try the Wenatchee Wave because it's a rip in acidity and it's beautiful, it's pink, it has some of the same sour beer vibes. Sauvignon Blanc drinkers, we push them towards our dry. And so I think that's the thing I keep telling everyone is just keep trying ciders, find the ones that work for you. If you like funky, if you like fruited, if you like dry, if you like sweet, it all exists out there. You just got to find it. Well, thank you, Caitlin. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate you.

[00:33:04] Justin Kendall: And that's our bonus episode for this week. Thanks to Jess and Zoe for all they do. Thanks to our special guests, Kevin Asato and Caitlin Braam. Thanks to our audio team for pulling this together. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back later this week.