Brewbound Podcast: Lester Jones, Live From the NBWA Annual Convention, and a GABF Recap

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. What went down at this year's re-imagined Great American Beer Festival? Find out next on the Brewbound Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:50] Jess Infante: I'm Jess Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:53] Justin Kendall: And Zoe, you and I are fresh back from the Great American Beer Festival. We're gonna talk about it in this episode. We're also going to bring you a conversation with NBWA Chief Economist and VP of Analytics, Lester Jones, recorded earlier this month in San Diego. Like, I forget that we've been on the road so much this month.

[00:01:19] Zoe Licata: Yeah, it was like end of September into the beginning of October. So it's been quite a few weeks.

[00:01:25] Justin Kendall: Yeah, so that was recorded at the NBWA's Annual Convention. Lester's going to talk about draft. He's going to talk about the state of the industry. So stay tuned for that. But first we got to plug Brewbound Live. That's coming up December 11th and 12th in Marina Del Rey, California. We've announced a lot of speakers. We're finalizing some speakers. The agenda is getting close to complete. So looking forward to that. Tickets are available now.

[00:01:54] Zoe Licata: This episode of this podcast is a nice preview for some stage content that you'll see because Lester is going to be on stage at Rebound Live, along with Jennifer Houck from DraftLine Technologies. And they're going to be talking all about the on-premise, which was a hot topic at NBWA. So it'll be good to keep that conversation going in December as we head into 2025.

[00:02:19] Justin Kendall: Get your tickets now and we will see you in Marina Del Rey. Let's dive into this because Zoe, you and I were in Denver. You were there much longer than me. And we previewed these changes that were coming with Anne Obenshain from the Brewers Association on last week's podcast. You can go back and listen to that if you missed it. It was supposed to be an experiential GABF. It wasn't one of these things where they promised something and they didn't deliver on it. I think that they tried to actually deliver on these promises. It looked different. It felt different. Jim Cook, I think, called it almost shocking. But the feedback that I received was good from the folks I talked to. You know, there's always some things that can be improved when you make such a drastic change, you know, from year to year. But I'm curious to hear from you, Zoe, because this isn't about me. This isn't aimed at me, really. I mean, it probably is to a degree, but they're trying to get the younger consumers into this thing and interested and feeling like they want to come back. So take us through your takeaways.

[00:03:30] Zoe Licata: Yeah, I mean, I think we'd probably it's best if we just start like what that even looked like. So basically, they promised these new experience areas. So there was the prost, score, chill, Blast Off, fright, and some familiar areas like meet the brewer and there was a gluten free garden and things. But they really were sectioned off areas within this convention center. Blast Off and Fright were dark zones. So the lights were turned down. There was neon lighting put up everywhere. And you were supposed to be immersed in whatever experience area you were in. So it really did look completely different. Kind of difficult to navigate at times. We got a little trapped occasionally when we tried to get out of one zone into another. really completely different. I realized it took me, if I had only been there for one session, I don't think I fully could have formed an opinion or taken everything in because when we first got there, it was almost like overwhelming, everything that was going on. It was a bit of a sensory overload.

[00:04:37] Justin Kendall: The entry from Paird into the actual festival, which Paird is the food pairing session that is on a lower level and it is quiet for the most part and just kind of a chill area. And then you walk in to, I think it was the sports area that we entered through. It's just chaos.

[00:05:01] Zoe Licata: There was a lot of sounds, a lot of people, obviously, but that's expected. Decorations, floor to ceiling. There's a lot going on. I'm curious, Jess, to get what questions you have about it, because you're going to be on our listeners end for anybody who didn't get to attend on what. Does this make sense what we're even describing? Can you picture this?

[00:05:25] Jess Infante: No, if you guys hadn't sent pictures, I would have no idea what you were talking about. It's kind of like I had to see the first Harry Potter movie before I read any of the books, and then it made sense. So you guys, you know, were really diligent about taking pics and sharing. But when we talk about these areas like Prost and Score and chill and Blast Off and fright, There are Brewers booths in those areas, right?

[00:05:51] Zoe Licata: Yes. So they're set up within these areas, kind of like how you'd expect them from before. Within the areas, they're in alphabetical order. How do you know who is where?

[00:06:01] Jess Infante: Like, do you just have to go on Vibes?

[00:06:03] Zoe Licata: That's kind of one of the issues. So there are maps around the convention floor that you can look at as like a guide and there's symbols for each area. And each taproom is listed in alphabetical order with their symbol of the area they're in. And then within the experience areas, they're in alphabetical order. So if you know that a brewery is gonna be in this spot, then you can kind of navigate to find it. The two difficulties there is one, the breweries don't necessarily have anything to do with the experience area. So unless you have that map, you can't really guess where somebody is going to be. The second is that a lot of places had a presence technically some sort of presence in multiple areas. So they would have a booth in like one designated zone, but then they may have their non-alcoholic offering at the non-alcoholic stations that were scattered around the floor.

[00:07:00] Justin Kendall: Once you walked into an area, there was a table that had some non-alcoholic offerings. The other half of the table was, I think, just offerings that were throughout the area.

[00:07:12] Zoe Licata: It was confusing. I didn't really know what that section was, and we didn't talk to Anne about this, but so yeah, so it was these two tables, the non-alcoholic, and the non-alcoholic seemed to, some were consistent around every area, some were a little different. And then the other table, which they had various signs telling you this is alcoholic. were, yeah, they were supposed to be the theme of the experience area, but there wasn't really any, like, messaging around it, or if those were the folks that were actually there. If it was, why wouldn't you just go to their booth? It was kind of confusing.

[00:07:46] Jess Infante: Are there any booths outside the areas? Like, think of, like, the old GABF, where there's just rows and rows of booths, either in geographic configuration or alphabetical or whatever. Does that still exist, or you have to go to these, like, themed hub areas?

[00:08:01] Zoe Licata: There was a couple exceptions. There was, like, they still had the Meet the Brewers Association, which was more traditional rose. There was a couple guilds that were there that were kind of in their own special area. And then, like, Roadhouse and Pete Support were kind of, they didn't bring the bus, they had their own DJ. But they were kind of off, like, towards the main entrance. So they were, I don't know if they technically were associated with any specific area, but they didn't seem to be in a designated one.

[00:08:31] Jess Infante: I have a very important question. Yes, were there bagpipers?

[00:08:35] Zoe Licata: Oh, yes, which added to the over-simulation. Yes, because there was also multiple stages within each area. So sometimes you have a band going on in Chill, you have polka music going on in Prost, which is right next to Chill, and then you have bagpipers walking around the entire convention center, which has an echo to it. This is the exact opposite of anything I would call Chill.

[00:09:02] SPEAKER_??: You're right.

[00:09:03] Jess Infante: So there is a lot going on.

[00:09:05] Justin Kendall: There's like a brass band that you would feel like it was chasing you almost.

[00:09:10] Zoe Licata: Like in New Orleans? The first night there was, yeah, like a marching band. That brass band? Yeah.

[00:09:17] Justin Kendall: Sort of. Yeah.

[00:09:18] SPEAKER_??: Wow.

[00:09:19] Jess Infante: Yeah. So it was a lot. So I told you both I had a little bit of FOMO. I've been to a lot of GABFs, not with child, since 2018. So I was a little sad. I kind of wanted to go, but the logistics didn't make sense. And we needed somebody home to fill up their notebook with everything else that's going on in the world. Did I miss anything? I think I did.

[00:09:42] Zoe Licata: I think this sounds a little fun. You miss experiencing what this is.

[00:09:47] Justin Kendall: Yeah. As someone who's been going since 2016, it felt fresh to me. But I was only there one night and I did paired for, what, an hour?

[00:09:57] Zoe Licata: For like at least half of the first night. Yeah.

[00:10:00] Justin Kendall: Yeah.

[00:10:01] Zoe Licata: People were definitely having a really good time and seemed to enjoy themselves and seemed to like the experience areas. I think the one question is... And we talked to Benny Ashburn about this a little bit during Boston Beer's media brunch on Friday, but where beer fits into the conversation. And she had concerns that it was potentially putting beer on the back burner, because consumers weren't going there to try the beers, they were going there to wear costumes, be in these funky experience areas, and then also get hammered on whatever they could get their hands on. Which is already a little bit what GABF was about at the end there, I think. But I did notice that that first night I did not sample very many beers at all because it was just a lot going on and we didn't really know where our go-to's were and it was a bit overwhelming. And then by the second night I was able to try more beers but it still felt like there was a whole nother conversation that I had with someone else about what does like an experience area mean and is it Does it have to be interactive at all? And I think I was expecting more of that, of like doing more things within the experience areas or having the breweries be more integrated into the experience areas and have it be this greater interactive experience. And that felt like they hadn't quite gotten there yet. And so that wasn't fully fulfilled for me.

[00:11:31] Justin Kendall: as part of like giving them the benefit of the doubt on year one. I think if you were a brewery like in Fright, for example, like you didn't really know what you were getting into. So I think like if you come back in year two, you can maybe play more into that. Like it's something maybe they can build off of. I remember like one booth was really decked out for Fright. But other than that, like the others largely weren't.

[00:11:57] Zoe Licata: There were a few that had brought their own decorations to be on theme and everything. And I had talked to a couple of brewers beforehand, and they had said the way that they had been chosen for each experience area was they gave the BA their top three choices and then were assigned based on that. But it was possible you would get none of those top three. So brewers were just kind of winging it. Some brought specific offerings that catered to the areas, most did not. Also Friday, significantly more volunteers pouring than Thursday, which we usually expect. And they, some of them were in costumes, but most were just in volunteer shirts and stuff.

[00:12:41] Jess Infante: Like costumes for their themed area or just general costumes?

[00:12:44] Zoe Licata: General costumes, but it was mostly the folks in the fright section. So that made sense because they were the Halloween section.

[00:12:51] Jess Infante: Fair. So like, I know you guys met up with one of our friends near Rheingeist. What section were they in?

[00:12:58] Zoe Licata: They were in chill, which was the area that probably had the least. I don't know if I had the least theme. It was more traditional to like previous years where that was like where all the food trucks were. And then they had some Adirondack chairs in Cornhole. They had a stage there. So that's where a lot of the bands were playing. And they had a partnership with Icon, the trail pass company. Oh, like with the K? Yes. Yeah. so folks could like renew their icon pass while in the chill section. The outdoorsy people, good for them.

[00:13:40] Jess Infante: Were people still doing the obnoxious like yell sound when somebody drops a cup?

[00:13:46] Zoe Licata: Yes. I didn't really notice anything on Thursday. Friday, it started to happen, but not too frequently.

[00:13:54] Jess Infante: And were there pretzel necklaces?

[00:13:57] Zoe Licata: Oh yeah. Yeah, tons of pretzel necklaces. I went into the Target on the Wednesday before to stock up on some stuff and the beef jerky and cap was basically empty. So folks had stocked up. What a sign of the times. Yeah, so there are a lot of familiarities there. One thing that I noticed that was different was there was almost no timed pouring releases at all. So you know how in the past you have your specialty beer that breweries would pour at a very specific time so people would line up and get ready to try that funky beer. The only one that I noticed at all was the usual Utopias release from Sam Adams. There didn't seem to be any other signs from any other brewery that they were doing those special releases. Weldworks didn't even do, they had their funky ones. I tried their soy sauce beer, but yeah, they didn't have any specialty releases.

[00:14:50] Jess Infante: Did Utopias draw a crowd like it usually does?

[00:14:53] Zoe Licata: Oh yeah.

[00:14:54] Jess Infante: Yeah.

[00:14:54] Zoe Licata: Yeah. And I felt bad for Firestone Walker. It was very close to Sam Adams this year with like a very narrow alleyway between the two. So when that Utopia sign started, Firestone Walker was so crowded. They had a bartender standing on top of their booth to basically like see if anybody wanted their stuff. That chaos still exists.

[00:15:18] Jess Infante: The Utopia's chaos is Having been on the inside of the booth as a slightly claustrophobic person, it's rough. And people get so fired up about it, it's very weird.

[00:15:31] Zoe Licata: Yeah, they still had their countdown.

[00:15:33] Justin Kendall: It was an insane line. That line was ridiculous. We did not get Utopias.

[00:15:39] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:15:39] Justin Kendall: They didn't even give it to us at the media brunch.

[00:15:43] Zoe Licata: I know. They did not share Utopias at media brunch this year, which I was totally okay with.

[00:15:51] Justin Kendall: Yeah, same here. It was a lot to have that, what, 7% West Coast IPA

[00:15:59] Zoe Licata: 9 a.m. Yeah, I mean, they were offering us full pours of American light at 9 a.m. So some nice breakfast, I guess.

[00:16:08] Lester Jones: That sounds good.

[00:16:11] Zoe Licata: The other big change was all the Beyond Beer stuff. They added hard cider last year, but this year they also added spirits-based canned cocktails and mead and hard kombucha. I thought there was going to be a lot of breweries who were pouring a canned cocktail they were making or something, but there was also a significant amount of solely spirits-based RTD brands around with their own presence. Stateside had a full tent. Surfside had a full tent. Big Sips had a booth next to Athletic in the blast-off space zone. What a combo. Yeah. Bravazzi, Bravazzi, the hard Italian soda brand had a booth. Suncruiser.

[00:16:57] Jess Infante: That's interesting.

[00:17:00] Zoe Licata: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Jess Infante: So I kind of see Benny's point a little bit because it sounds like We've changed two big fundamental things about Beer Festival, both of which take the attention off the beer. But I think the general trend of all Beer Festival of the last, I don't know, call it five years, really has been, you got to be offering something else because saying, hey, come here and drink beer is not the thing anymore. Maybe even 10 years.

[00:17:25] Justin Kendall: So when we were over at the Schilling booth and they did a great job of having like a selfie station and they had temporary tattoos that they were giving out and putting on people. Were they in Blast Off?

[00:17:37] Zoe Licata: Yes. Yes. Which made sense. Because that's their whole thing. Exactly. That one made sense.

[00:17:42] Justin Kendall: So while I was waiting for Zoe to get her temporary tattoo, I overheard a woman behind me who was just raving about them having lemonade hard lemonade there, and was so psyched about it and was like, Thank you, thank you. You know, this is my favorite, whatever, you know, and it kind of drove home like you're appealing to some people that probably wouldn't have much else to be interested in, in that situation.

[00:18:08] Jess Infante: Yeah. Did you talk to her at all? Because I'd be curious if she like traveled for this.

[00:18:12] Justin Kendall: I didn't. I didn't go too deep. But then some guy like stopped Zoe and I and talked to us between Blast Off and fright and was- Did he know who you were? No.

[00:18:23] Jess Infante: No. Were you guys recognized? No. No. It was just chatting.

[00:18:26] Justin Kendall: But was like raving about having non elk.

[00:18:30] Jess Infante: Yeah. So let's talk about the non-alcoholic of it all, because the last GEBF I attended, that was all I could drink, but it was kind of scattered. So you guys are saying that there were non-alcoholic stations, like you could know, go to this place and you will have non-alcoholic offerings?

[00:18:44] Zoe Licata: Yep. Yeah. Cool. Like last year, I remember us, we were kind of disappointed because they were kind of put in one corner. All the non-alcoholic was in a place over there. It was basically like all volunteers pouring in and you had to go kind of out of your way and make a point of saying, I'm going to go to the non-alcoholic area.

[00:19:01] Jess Infante: Yeah, when you're trying to hide the fact that you're not really drinking beer, it makes it a little difficult.

[00:19:07] Zoe Licata: It was a mix this year of both every experience area, as soon as you walked in, had a table of all non-alcoholic offerings. But then also within the experience areas, there was non-alcoholic brands that had their own tables to sell your stuff to.

[00:19:22] Lester Jones: So it was all over the place.

[00:19:24] Jess Infante: Nice. Yeah, I believe my last GABF, Keith Via became one of like the first five people to know that Cora was coming because they just kept going back to the Syria booth. And he explained that it was alcohol free and that was a whole thing. Yeah. And I just had to be like, I'm sorry, I'm not stalking you. You just you have something that I can drink. You have one of the few things I can drink.

[00:19:45] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:19:45] Justin Kendall: But it wasn't just adult non-alcoholic either. Was there like Diet Coke around? No, it was V8 Energy. Oh, different.

[00:19:55] Zoe Licata: Yeah, V8 Energy had their own like big tent set up and was handing out little cup koozies and samples of their new energy drink. So there was a presence of some non-alcoholic, even non-beverage brands there. Southwest Airlines redeemed themselves a little bit with their section after last year. They had a big area in the sports section where you could play foosball and some other competition games, and they were giving away a bunch of Denver sports teams branded different accessories and things. Boost Mobile had a huge setup kind of towards the front entrance and they were giving away the like lanyard cup holders. And if you gave them your email, gave them all your information, they would make like on the spot screen print a shirt with a couple like beer themed designs that they had for you.

[00:20:50] Justin Kendall: And then I missed like the flash mob. I didn't get to see the Lucha Libre wrestling. I didn't see a Stein holding competition. Did you catch these on day two?

[00:21:02] Zoe Licata: I caught a quick glimpse of the flash mob, which actually happened. So this was a zombie thriller thrash mob that was promoted to be happening in fright, but it actually happened over in the chill area, I think, because they had way more space over there. Not chill. But it was in front of the stage, which was also not chill. So it made more sense over there, I think. Did not catch Steinholding, did catch some of the wrestling. It was not... I don't know what falls into the definition of lucha libre, but it was not like masked men at all. It was a bunch of like scantily clad women who had some pretty awesome power moves going on. No masks? No masks. People were really excited for that. So I stood at the entrance. I got in a little earlier on Friday and so I could stand there and watch all the crowds when they finally dropped the ropes and let them in and everything. And they had a huge sign towards the front of the entrance promoting the Lucha Libre wrestling once every hour from, like, six to eight. And so many people saw it and, like, gasped. They were like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. Like, we're really excited about it. And they drew a crowd for sure.

[00:22:10] SPEAKER_??: Okay.

[00:22:10] Zoe Licata: So there were areas that did have some cool stuff going on, but it was mainly the sports section and the chill section, I think. And Pro said the strongest man, I guess, at some point did not catch a glimpse of him. I guess he was doing photo ops. It's very overwhelming. That's my that's my main word for this event is overwhelming.

[00:22:33] Justin Kendall: It definitely felt overwhelming just being there on one night and knowing like, you're trying to hit all the sections. I mean, I didn't even see like the wrestling ring. So like, I missed like a part of the the whole convention center area.

[00:22:49] Zoe Licata: It was near, there was a bunch of like random vendors and stuff. And like MB2A had their own little section that it was kind of close to. It was hard to get around everywhere.

[00:23:01] Justin Kendall: That Utopia's line definitely made it hard to get around everywhere.

[00:23:04] Jess Infante: That damn Utopia's line. Well, Zoe, you mentioned something that I am extremely interested in as a salt fiend, soy sauce beer. Tell me about it.

[00:23:15] Zoe Licata: Yes, well of course I had to try something from Weldwork's interesting lineup. So I had the soy sauce barrel-aged sushi gozu, which was a sour ale aged in soy sauce barrels with rice, wasabi, ginger, and seaweed. And then they were serving it with little rice balls.

[00:23:37] Jess Infante: It was impaired?

[00:23:38] Zoe Licata: No, this was on the floor. This was at the Weldworks. So they had like added food to their lineup, even though it wasn't paired. How notable was the seaweed? Minimal. Okay. It was there. It was present, but it was definitely very soy sauce. What word? I mean, yeah, it kind of just felt like I was drinking liquid rice that had been soaking in soy sauce for a very long time. It wasn't bad. I didn't hate it. Occasionally you'd get a little bit of that wasabi too. It was a slow sipper, that's for sure, but I eventually finished it.

[00:24:13] Jess Infante: I'm on board.

[00:24:14] Zoe Licata: Yeah. And it was five and a half percent, I think. So. Perfect. Not too bad at all. Always can rely on Weldworks for the funky stuff. What else did you try? Another weird one that I had was at the New York Brewers Guild booth. They had a collaboration with Mortales Brewing and Other Half. The fillings are mutual and it was made with Concord grapes, granola, and coconut. And this is the one, Justin, that Chris Shepherd from Beer Marketer's Insights had told us about the day before. It is very wine forward. They pour it and it's a very dark, dark red. It looks like straight up wine. I think it's technically a smoothie sour. I think I looked it up on their website, but it doesn't have any of the potential chunkiness qualities that smoothie sours could occasionally have. my brain could not figure out what I was drinking. You could definitely taste the coconut, you could definitely taste the like wine qualities, but it was a beer. So that was definitely one of the funkier ones.

[00:25:23] Justin Kendall: Plenty for President.

[00:25:25] Zoe Licata: We did have Plenty for President. Brakeside had a really good Pilsner in the Prost section. Love that. Yeah, that one made sense. I also tried this new brand that was introduced to us called Rizzo, which is sparkling hard citrus. Very tart, as the name implies. We had met with somebody who was a friend of the founder, and he had said that the TTB hadn't quite figured out what to call them until recently, and has decided they are an F&B. But I had the razzleberry flavor. It wasn't too bad. Not sweet, which I enjoyed. But yeah, just kind of sparkling, tart this.

[00:26:10] Jess Infante: Cool. Do you have any breweries while you guys were out there? Oh, yeah.

[00:26:13] Zoe Licata: Yeah, we got to go to the new post location, which was very impressive.

[00:26:20] Justin Kendall: And it's one of those like, yeah, we're gonna go to a brewery, you know, and it's like, what's it take to impress you with going to a brewery? And apparently, it's like a brewery spirit Halloweening, like a former Old Navy and a bed bath. Like, yeah, both. It's a huge space.

[00:26:38] Zoe Licata: Yeah. And they have it all kind of open with the windows. So you can kind of give yourself a self-guided tour of their whole process. And then they have a huge outdoor space and a stage out there. But it is massive.

[00:26:53] Jess Infante: Cool. I feel like I've said cool a million times.

[00:26:57] Zoe Licata: It's very cool. And then we had been given a bit of a mini tour and they said that even though the space was so big, it still was technically like more sustainable than their smaller pilot program. So they built it so that it's. way more eco-friendly, do a lot of like CO2 capturing and stuff.

[00:27:14] Jess Infante: Nice. Yeah. Their spa in Fort Collins had like just closed when I was out there for the Encompass conference. And like my hotel was right next to it. And I was like, well, this is too bad. Cause I totally would have hung out here.

[00:27:26] Zoe Licata: It's nice to go to a place where I would drink basically any beer on their menu.

[00:27:31] Jess Infante: Right. Lots of beer folks there too. Yeah. Did you get to beer stand at all?

[00:27:37] Zoe Licata: No, another year, no Bierstadt, which is kind of embarrassing.

[00:27:41] Jess Infante: I didn't realize that. I think they were hosting the rare beer tasting.

[00:27:45] Zoe Licata: I think they were. And some people had mentioned going over there. I love Bierstadt and I recommend people go there every time they say they're going to Denver. Even with all the options at GABF, I got really beered out at Beer Festival. So one brewery stop was good for me.

[00:28:03] Jess Infante: Yeah. I'm still a little salty that that time that you and I tried to go and I was like, do you have non-alcoholic and they were like, no, we're breweries. They were mean. Yeah. That was not cool. No. So it sounds like next year I will go. You should go. Yes. I would like to go. I'm glad we've established this.

[00:28:27] Zoe Licata: All right. It's a good time. You should go there and you should go to Paird because Paird was also really great.

[00:28:33] Jess Infante: I have been to Paird, I think, when it was new.

[00:28:36] Zoe Licata: Much calmer, much quieter, delicious beers.

[00:28:40] Jess Infante: Yeah. Zoe, I feel like you would have really liked Savor.

[00:28:42] Zoe Licata: Probably. I know I keep having FOMO for Savor because people keep talking about it.

[00:28:47] Jess Infante: It was very cool.

[00:28:48] Zoe Licata: I had a saison from Green Bench with like a ceviche that was really delicious.

[00:28:55] Justin Kendall: That saison was fantastic.

[00:28:57] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Also chider from Schilling, like their chai flavored cider with baklava was the first thing I tried and that was also quite delicious and made me want to cozy up like next to a fire. It was a good time.

[00:29:13] Justin Kendall: Let's turn this into Another Round or Tabbing Out then. So yeah, we both went, we've seen the new GABF. Are you buying Another Round of it? Or are you Tabbing Out?

[00:29:24] Zoe Licata: I am buying Another Round knowing that it was significantly improved from last year. And it was definitely an experience. It was definitely fun. I could see myself having a great time. If I brought friends, I could definitely see myself having a blast. There was tons of groups of young people. We didn't even touch on the demographics of folks. very well mix of genders there going on, which I think I noted last year too. I actually had to wait in a bathroom line last year. This year again, it seemed like there was a lot of women there, which was great. So yeah, it was definitely a fun time. I'd buy Another Round on having a good, fun time there without having to do any work-related things, I think is what I need.

[00:30:11] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:30:13] Justin Kendall: I'm buying Another Round on it because they delivered on the promise of a different experience. it needs some improvements. Like I think that they could do a better job of saying, these are the breweries in Prost and these are the breweries in Freight. Maybe make, make it a thing where it's an announcement, you know, as much as you can make an announcement of these things, like here's the reveal of the Freight breweries. I mean, you've got so many days before JABF that I think you could use it as a marketing tool. And maybe they didn't, I didn't see it.

[00:30:48] Zoe Licata: I mean, you can go on to the GABF site page and they have different pages specifically for each area and that has all the lists of all the breweries, but you really got to go out of your way to go if you want to find who you're specifically looking for. Yeah, there could be some more promotions going on. I would love if the brewers themselves leaned into the themes more too, because that could also help with some of that intuitive finding breweries type thing.

[00:31:18] Justin Kendall: we've established like what the new GABF looks like. Year two is where people can sort of play with those themes or jump in a little more now that they know what to expect as opposed to, they say it's going to be different. Is it going to be different?

[00:31:36] Zoe Licata: I mean, there were a lot of brewers there too that I talked to that they, this was the first time they'd poured since like 2018. So they hadn't even been at any JVF for a while. This was kind of them dipping their toes back in the water. They didn't have to pay for their boost this year. So that helped bring in a lot more breweries, I think. Wait, what?

[00:31:55] Justin Kendall: They took away fees. Yeah.

[00:31:57] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Okay. There's a whole nother conversation on how the BA is making any money off of this event.

[00:32:03] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:32:04] Zoe Licata: Yeah, so I think brewers were attracted by the concept and the idea and kind of used their way in and so they could definitely kind of dive fully in next year.

[00:32:14] Justin Kendall: Well, that's the recap of the new GABF. So we'll see what they do next year. But we should get to our featured interview with Lester Jones from the NBWA.

[00:32:29] Jess Infante: Welcome back to the Brewbound podcast on location studio here outside the National Beer Wholesalers Association's 87th Annual Convention and Product Showcase. We are thrilled to have our next guest join us, none other than the NBWA's very own Chief Economist and VP of Analytics, Lester Jones. How you doing, buddy?

[00:32:50] National Beer: I am doing just great. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:32:53] Jess Infante: Well, thank you for joining us. So Lester, you wrapped up this morning's general session with a really, really great conversation about the on-premise. And, you know, you and DraftLine Technologies founder Jennifer Hawk did a tag-team data presentation about the status, and then you moderated a panel excellently, might I say. Well, thank you. Oh, you're welcome. I mean, I feel like I am a really good panel moderator, and I know talent when I see it, so. Great work. High praise. Yeah. Up there you had Robbie Miletus, the GM of Miletus Beverages, Alex Bergson from Manhattan Beer, and my former boss man, Jim Cook. So you have always been super passionate about the importance that the on-premise should have in terms of really booing the rest of the industry. And it's been a weird road post-COVID. What are you seeing right now?

[00:33:47] National Beer: So I see a lot. I see many things. I don't see ghosts, but I do see many things. I was watching Sixth Sense the other night. That's why that popped into my head randomly. It's so interesting because, you know, what we had pre-COVID was this just too much, right? And it was too much of a lot of things. It was too much beer in too many places. I believe you called out zoos and libraries? I did, yes. I mean, we had a, the Austin library had a bar.

[00:34:18] Wholesalers Association: I kind of love that.

[00:34:20] National Beer: We had a bar and they had the drinks were all like good night moon and you know they were all... Children's themed alcohol? It was insane and it was like that point and then that's when we had Bed Bath & Beyond where they Bed Bath & Beyond announced that they were going to be selling beer and wine in some of their stores and you could go and you could get vacuum cleaner bags and a six-pack of craft beer. And it was just like, okay, these things have just spread out too many places. It's just too fragmented. And that was kind of, in many ways, what was happening at that end of that great expansion that we had from basically 2012 to 2019. And of course, that all came crashing down in COVID. And a lot of that excessive on-premise things that were out there just kind of went away. And so we were all hunkered down at home, and the off-premise market exploded, the cans exploded, we had can shortages, and that was a problem, because it fundamentally changed the structure and the way our industry operated. If you were a craft brewer, you were suddenly investing in canning equipment, you're buying more cans, you're doing just so much more for that beer to go, And then we came out of it. And when we came out of it, we came out of it with tons of economic stimulus, right? So the industry was kind of locked in to off-premise purchases and canned packages, and it just wasn't ready to meet the consumer in the on-premise with all this superfluous economic stimulus. And I kind of remember our first kind of FinTech NBWA webinar where I'm like, hey guys, here's draft, here's the on-premise. It's gaining traction. It's not what I thought it would be. I thought it would go boom and grow suddenly, but it didn't. And a lot of that was that stickiness in the industry. Tight labor. Beer distributors were struggling with finding labor to service the on-premise, because the on-premise is just not as efficient as the off-premise. So there was a multitude of impacts, economic, demographic, labor forces, that were kind of keeping us back. And so now it's just kind of exciting to see that, yeah, actually people are, you know, two years later, 2024, we're kind of like, oh, okay, this is important for us.

[00:36:45] Justin Kendall: You showed a pie graph today and it showed draft that was finally over 50% for, I think it was the first time you'd said since the pandemic, is that right? Yes. How encouraging is that? Do you think that's a sticky sign?

[00:37:02] National Beer: I absolutely think that's a sticky sign. And once again, all the structural things that happened in the behavior of retailers and consumers on-premise. I think when we came out of COVID, the on-premise operators were reluctant to buy that keg. They were like, yeah, because they just got done throwing out kegs. Some of them, some of them, I know guys that still haven't, you know, recovered all their kegs. They're still locked up in small little independent on-premise establishments that never reopened. So, you know, there's a reluctance, I think, on the part of our retail partners that if they could buy a case of beer or just one keg instead of two kegs, that, you know, that was a safer play for them. So now that we're getting back to being a little bit more, you know, open to having two kegs in the back or maybe I'm going to make sure I have, I'm just going to have an extra supply. I think that's really important for us to recognize and for our retail partners as well.

[00:38:00] Zoe Licata: How much of an impact do you think on people paying attention to the on-premise?

[00:38:05] Wholesalers Association: It's also from potentially these producers are looking at products that don't really play in like draft or something. They're looking at like non-alcoholic beer or they're looking at canned cocktails. Does that have any impact or is it still too small?

[00:38:17] National Beer: It's pretty small right now. I look at FinTech every week. I see it growing. I see the share of non-out growing. There's a lot of cannibalization in there. There's a lot of old school NA brands that are falling away, a lot of new NA brands that are coming online. And I'm not quite sure, I think we do see that Athletic does have some draft out there. I'm not sure how that works, but I trust them that they're going to figure out how to make it work. And once again, I'm 100% for bringing back the taste of bitter and hops and malt. to the younger consumer, because sweets got to go. I'm sorry. This is grow out of sweet eventually. You burned out? I'm burned out of sweet. Let's just get back to good old barley malt hops and water and just keep it uncomplicated, keep it simple. I think beer is a simple choice. there's a lot of that innovation out there and that's great. I'm all for new stuff and throwing things up against the wall and seeing what sticks and running with what works and admitting your mistakes and saying, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. I think there's something, I saw a story on pumpkin beer the other day, I look at pumpkin beers, and they're still strong.

[00:39:36] Jess Infante: I look forward to your pumpkin beer report every year.

[00:39:39] National Beer: Thank you, I do too. Because it's, It just gives me the sense of like, yeah, even something as crazy as pumpkin beer, you know, is still around, and it still spikes up that perfect year, and it spikes up, it has its moment in the sun, it doesn't register in the grand numbers, in the big numbers of things, it doesn't register, but when you focus in on those first couple of weeks of fall, boom, there it is, people still appreciate it. So, you know.

[00:40:06] Jess Infante: That's good. That's good. My sister-in-law lives in Los Angeles and loves pumpkin beer. And it's not really that easy to come by. So I usually take it upon myself to buy her some in New England and send it to her. But I never really know. I don't want to buy it at like a regular off-premise store because she maybe could get that. I always try to wait for the local breweries to announce when they're doing four packs. And I can never guess when it happens. I'm always either too early or too late.

[00:40:32] National Beer: Well, you know, that's part of the fun part about what craft was all about back in the beginning, right? Yeah. And, you know, the fun thing about craft was finding new craft, having something that no one had before, and, you know, and having that specialness about it. Once it all became 24, 12-ounce cases and was widely distributed across grocery stores and convenience stores and all the other places you could buy it, it lost its uniqueness. So, you know, thank God that that pumpkin beer kind of keeps us in our space, in our special, you know, couple of week period where it's special and then people can go out and find it.

[00:41:07] Jess Infante: So something we hear a lot lately is that the number one draft line nationwide is no draft line at all. It's an empty tap handle. I know that that gets brought up a lot. But when we are talking about like beer category innovations like we just talked about, I don't know what is better or more advantageous to have those empty lines filled up with non-beer kegs? Could that be a good thing? What do we want to see happen to all these empty draft lines? What's our hope and dream for them?

[00:41:41] National Beer: I kind of used that word earlier in the panel. The market looks for equilibrium. What we want, what we get, what we think is right, what we hope for is not necessarily always what the market is going to deliver to us. So I think A lot of retailers are thinking about, what do I do with these draft lines? How profitable are they? How much do I want to invest in them? So do we want them all filled up 100%? Probably not. Might not be a good idea. But we certainly don't want them empty. So we're going to have to be aware, as beer distributors, and as brewers and as retailers, we just have to find that new healthy medium of what is that equilibrium point for the right number of draft wines. I'm sure for a place like Alex Bergson's Manhattan Beer in Manhattan, there's a good number, but I'm sure in a place like Dallas or, you know, kind of big, larger chain account, chain on-premise accounts, a Buffalo Wild Wings or a Yardhouse or whatever, a bigger assortment is the right thing. So I think there's a right number. I think there's a right number for the market, there's a right number for the retailer, there's a right number for the distributor, and what that market will bear. So we just have to, we just have to be able, we just have to let the market play itself out. And then we'll know what is right, what the right number is.

[00:43:01] Justin Kendall: When was the last time that there was a number one beer on draft, when it wasn't an open line?

[00:43:09] National Beer: I would, I'm sure, I mean, right now, for me, in the data that I see, it's, and the Make Ultra's the number one draft, and Bud Light was the number one draft for a long time, just because that's just sheer volume, right? And it's absolutely driven by regional differences. I mean, you will find what the number one draft is in the Pacific Northwest is not the number one draft in New England, not the number one draft in the Midwest. Those are all very different number ones. You know, what they roll up to be nationally, you know, is a whole nother story because, you know, once again, California is always going to over-index and outweigh everything else in the rest of the country. So, you know, I've always said, you know, we should take California and make it its own, you know, beer state and then look at the rest of the country because you would get a completely different profile of the beer drinker, the consumer and the retailer if you sold California to Mexico. No, no, we're here in California. I don't want to disparage.

[00:44:09] Jess Infante: I didn't bring my passport, so don't do this anytime soon. I'd get stuck.

[00:44:14] National Beer: No, but you're right. But, you know, what's the number one brand is absolutely kind of, you know, almost an irrelevant question because it is so much driven by the geographical differences and what people want to drink and where they want to drink and when.

[00:44:27] Jess Infante: But put another way, when did this proliferation of empty lines happen? Is this a COVID thing?

[00:44:33] National Beer: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, you know, we, I mean, there's a point, you know, I remember watching the numbers and I remember one draft went negative. I was like, okay, it's a negative number. I mean, we were pulling more draft beer out of the US beer market and getting rid of it, turning into hand sanitizer and doing whatever we could with it at that period of time. So it had a negative a negative drawdown on our total volumes. And that's when all those taps went dry. I remember my first draft beer, and it was horrible. I had to give it back.

[00:45:06] Zoe Licata: Oh, no.

[00:45:07] National Beer: Yeah.

[00:45:07] Zoe Licata: Was that a beer problem, or was that a draft line problem?

[00:45:10] National Beer: I think it was just an old keg, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I went down. We were in Austin. We went down. We did the speakeasy thing. We knocked on the door. You know, Gerard was our bartender. Pre-COVID, he opened. He goes, what do you want? I was like, two draft beers. He's like, OK. You know, and the door closed and then his hand came out and we ran our beers over and we sat down and we're like, and we had to spit them out. Knock, knock, knock. That was a lousy beer. He's like, oh no, I'm sorry. Let me get you Another Round. Two more beers came out. We're like, oh, that's a little bit better.

[00:45:40] Jess Infante: Lester, I think you just solved the problem of getting the younger LDA drinkers back out to the bars. Do you have you heard about the wine windows in Florence?

[00:45:50] National Beer: No.

[00:45:51] Jess Infante: In Florence, Italy, there are these, you know, really old buildings that have these like medieval, tiny little windows that open up and you can be served a glass of wine through it. And we know the kids love the experiences. I think what we need here is draft beer windows where you can just, you know, walk around, know a secret code, tap on the wall. Somebody hands you a beer. Yep. You put it on TikTok. at the end, we think we can go home.

[00:46:17] National Beer: But yeah, so that was the start of our empty line discussion, and now the market is trying to come back to equilibrium, we're trying to figure out what that right balance is. I don't think it's a 2017, 2018 model, that where it was just everywhere, but it's not where it is today. So I think as we elevate our industry, and we elevate beer, and we focus on making the beer experience, the beer occasion, more than it is today. You know, looking forward, I think there'll be a new open, there'll be a new metric to come by. That's what I was kind of hoping for in that panel. I was like, what's our metric going to be? Because like, if we do get more draft handles, we do have people more drinking draft, then it's absolutely going to transfer into the off-premise. So what's that linkage? What's that, what's that connection that everyone needs to make that, hey, you sold 10% more beer in the on-premise and six months we sold 1% more in the off, or whatever that metric should be. That's what I like to think about it.

[00:47:14] Jess Infante: That part of the conversation was really interesting. I know Zoe, you were off writing, so you weren't in the room. Yeah, this is all new to me. Jim said he thinks that for every pint sold in the on-premise, it translates to two bottles sold in the off-premise.

[00:47:25] Wholesalers Association: I feel like it might be, we were just talking with, I think Bill Shufelt from Athletic was saying this, he thinks it's probably higher than that. Like if you've tried something, like one pint of something in the on-premise, maybe you're just going to buy a six-pack or something.

[00:47:37] National Beer: And that's kind of, there's probably a life cycle curve to that, because if you introduce a new brand into the marketplace and you do it in the traditional style, where you start doing sampling and tasting, in the on-premise, and people are like, oh yeah, that is a good, I'm going to buy a six pack of that the next time I'm at the grocery store. So yeah, there's probably a one to six or a one to 12 success story to be told in a new growth brand, in an infancy of developing a brand in the market, and as more and more people do it, obviously that curve would slow down. But you're onto something, you're right, and he is onto something, and that model would work well It would definitely be a model where it works really well at first and then it starts having diminishing returns. But that's the way numbers work.

[00:48:26] Zoe Licata: I'm curious, you said you look forward to the pumpkin beers trend. Is there any other data point or like a trend that comes up that gets you really excited or that you like to dive into a lot?

[00:48:38] National Beer: Oh, there's tons of data points. What are you talking about?

[00:48:42] Zoe Licata: Like something niche like that, like pumpkin beer. So if there's something that maybe comes around every year or that you wish you could look at more that just gets you excited.

[00:48:52] National Beer: Well, I mean, there's a whole, I mean, you know, for a while I was, I was really, I was really betting on Meade. There was a point in time where I'm like, Meade's just got to take effect. And everyone made fun of me and, you know, I was wrong. And now I'm into Saki. I think Saki, I think we have. But you've been on Saki a while. Yes, I admit I've been on Saki for a while and I will stay on Saki until it proves me right.

[00:49:16] Jess Infante: You're a Saki hipster.

[00:49:17] National Beer: I am, and I think it's a great drink, and I was just on the phone with the executive director of the American Sake Association. There is Great American Sake Association, and he's gaining members, and he just brought in the American Rice Federation, because a lot of sake is made with very high quality rice. The ingredients, kind of like beer, needs a really high quality barley. You just don't make it out of feed cattle. You make it out of a cattle feed. You make it out of a good, high quality barley kernel. And the same goes for sake. And it is a fermented grain, which puts it right in there next to beer. But it's taxed as a wine because everyone's confused because of the higher alcohol and such. But I do have a special place in my heart for sake. And I do think every time I tour a distributor warehouse, I see cases of sake. And I'm like, how's that sake doing? It's doing great. Why do you ask? because I'm a thing for sake. And that's about the far the conversation goes, and we move on to talk about other things. But I do think that's there. I do, you know, it's this innovation, there's so much more to come, I think, and that's what makes me excited when I open up the data every week and I start looking at it, I'm like, ooh, look at this, there's soju in here now, and oh, there's some meat over here, and sake up there, and then when you see kombucha-based seltzers that have THC with some hops added, my head explodes. There's some things that just make my head explode when I see them.

[00:50:44] Justin Kendall: I'm looking forward to those being added to the beer purchasers index.

[00:50:49] National Beer: Are you going to retire when that happens? Well, speaking of the Beer Purchasing Index, that is fun because I haven't yet added certain segments in there, and people ask me why. If I added N.A. into that, it would be 100 every month because every single person would give me a thumbs up. So I'm like, I'm not ready to add something like N.A. to the BPI because I'd just be stuck at 100. And kind of like there's a point in time when Seltzer's came out and it was just 95, 95, 95. It was just like, okay. And then once it started coming down, then we started having a story because that's when people are like, okay, my demand is getting a little tempered here and I'm getting a little bit, and that's when it was fun to watch go down and try to recover. So eventually I will add NAs into that.

[00:51:36] Jess Infante: Have you thought about splitting Seltzer and FNB? Because right now they're the same.

[00:51:40] National Beer: Yeah, I call it kind of just a beyond beer category. No, I thought about it, but then I just don't want to complicate it. The purpose of this is to just gauge distributors' sentiment. How do they feel? I'm not looking for an accounting. When the BPI is at 50, it's kind of like I'm getting as many people that are feeling good as are feeling bad. I'm like, okay, that's a good place to be. A recent one was pretty low, so that means, you know, You know, that recent reading of 30 was pretty low. But the reality is, the interesting thing is, is I have a little trick to the beer purchasers in this, because I do ask for the segments, and then I ask for the total. So when you tell me the total, thumbs up, and then you give me a whole bunch of segments, thumbs down, a disconnect appears. Because it's kind of like when I meet you on the street, and I say, hey, how you doing? And you're like, doing miserable. I'm like, well, what's wrong? Did you lose your job? No. Did you break up with your partner? No. Did you get fired? No. Is your dog run away? No. I can't find one reason why you feel bad. but you're still telling them you feel bad, right? So there's always a disconnect. We see that in consumer sentiment surveys, like Michigan Consumer Center, all those sentiment surveys all have those frequent disconnects between kind of the individual parts and the sum of the aggregate. And this month was kind of like that. I mean, if I look at the implied BPI, it was more like a higher 42, 43, which is right in line where it should have been. And that was just because people in total were just like, ugh, this sucks. And I'm down on this. And I'm like, well, why are you down? Well, this is up, and this is up, and this might be like this, and that might be like this. But the sum of their individual sentiments didn't equal their total well-being feeling. And that's why I thought this recent September BPI was It's not a nominally, it's happened before. It happens the other way too. Sometimes I've gotten some of the segments which are like a 75 and the total BPI is down in the 60s, right? So that's where it happens the other way and sometimes it goes that way. It's just nature. It's never meant to be objective, quantitative, hardcore kind of analytical tools. It's meant to just judge sentiment so that people could say, probably should do a little bit. Something needs to change for us to feel better about the future of the beer market.

[00:54:07] Justin Kendall: What's your feeling though? I mean, Kraft has been sort of in the gutter of the BPI for a while. What's your feeling on where things are going with that?

[00:54:17] National Beer: It has been down, but remember, it doesn't indicate the percentage. It just gives me an idea of how many people don't see it as a growing opportunity for them. I look at the CIDR index frequently for that same feeling. CIDR has been running pretty stable at a steady kind of 30 on for a long, long time now and that just means it's still there, it's still relevant. It's just not at that point where, you know, it's ready to shoot off again and everyone's going to be doubling down on it. I'm okay. I mean, I think Kraft has been incredibly successful. I mean, they were selling it in zoos and libraries and the bed bath and beyond. Come on guys, you sold your product next to a vacuum cleaner. Seriously? That had to come back. That had to come back to Earth. It had to come in alignment. It has to find out where it belongs and where the customers are for them and what is important to them.

[00:55:23] Jess Infante: You know what I really would have appreciated, and it's the moot point now, this is a completely bygone era, but if we had bars inside the Bed Bath & Beyond so I could have a beer and shop, that sounds like a great Friday night to me.

[00:55:38] National Beer: Well, you know, and that's a great... segue here because, you know, in Austin we have Whole Foods and we have HEB and every one of those grocery stores have a bar. Our grocery store, HEB, has $2 Tuesdays or $2 draft beers. And when you go there, there are a ton of people at the bar drinking draft beer and then going into the grocery store. But that's an off-premise purchase It's an on-premise establishment inside an off-premise establishment with a bud. And I remember Nordstrom's has bars. There's always been bars in some of the larger clothing retailers around the country. So alcohol is part of our lives, despite the narrative that people don't want to drink and people are down on drinking. I mean, I still see a lot of occasions out there. They might not be as powerful as they used to be, but they're still there.

[00:56:36] Justin Kendall: And I think that's important to notice. To Zoe's point and Jim Cook's point, I wonder what the correlation there is between the person who goes there for $2 drafts and what they're taking home with them.

[00:56:47] Zoe Licata: Yeah. I mean, I was just in Universal and we were drinking beers while we're waiting in line. And now I'm thinking about all the times I have to wait in line in real life and how it'd be so much better if they just offered me a draft beer while I waited.

[00:57:00] Wholesalers Association: So maybe we need bars at like the post office. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say the RMV and then I was like, no, we should not have beer at the RMV.

[00:57:08] Justin Kendall: You're going to get in trouble with this post office idea, talking to somebody from the NBWA.

[00:57:13] Zoe Licata: I'm sorry. We're not delivering it. We're just drinking it at the post office.

[00:57:16] Wholesalers Association: It's just the place I most often stand in line.

[00:57:18] National Beer: A good beer occasion, we should have many, many, many more good beer occasions, including going to the post office. I agree with you. Well, there are eight occasions in a day, I learned today. Yeah. And that goes back to 2.5 gallons, which always talked about is that if you look at the consumer expenditure data, it's about eight to nine-tenths of a person's consumer expenditures on average go to alcohol. Very consistent number. When I look at total alcohol consumption on the per ounce of ethanol basis, it sums up to about 2.5 gallons. Sometimes it goes too high, sometimes it comes down. But on average, that long-term average is 2.5. So those occasions are fixed, and how you drink, where you drink, when you drink, with whom you drink, all those variables are at play, and an option for people to manipulate and try to capture. So it's the who, the what, the where, the when, the why, the how, all of those are variables that a beer distributor, a retailer, a brewer, an importer, or anyone in the alcohol beverage market gets to play with it, and that's what makes it fun. In my opinion. Fun business we're in, guys.

[00:58:31] Jess Infante: I mean, look, shit could be much worse. We could be covering, like, the paperclip industry.

[00:58:37] National Beer: Exactly. Paper pulp.

[00:58:40] Wholesalers Association: I mean, we know folks that have to cover interesting protein bars. So this is much more fun.

[00:58:48] National Beer: I agree. Yeah. And it's been fun chatting with you. It's been super fun chatting with you guys. It's always fun.

[00:58:53] Jess Infante: Can we go get a beer?

[00:58:54] National Beer: Yes, we can. I think it's time for us to enjoy a beer. One of those eight occasions. Thanks for doing this, Lester. Tonight's going to be at least 10 occasions.

[00:59:05] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Zoe for palling around at GABF with me. Thanks to Jess for holding down the fort while we were away. Thanks to Joe, our one man audio team. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.