Brewbound Podcast: How to Craft a National Accounts Strategy

[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: How do you craft a national account strategy? We're going to talk about it next on the Brewbound podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I'm the editor of Brewbound and I am joined by Zoe Licata, the brew-bound reporter extraordinaire, Generation Z consultant. And we are not joined by Jessica Infante, who is... You know, sitting this one out.

[00:00:41] Odell Brewing: So she deserves a little break after what we've put her through.

[00:00:47] Jessica Infante: So yeah, she was, she was a true road warrior. She hit everything from NACs in Las Vegas to GABF in Denver. to the NBWA and Beer Institute meetings in Chicago. And yeah, she deserves a break from, you know, talking to us. So, but welcome Zoe.

[00:01:10] Odell Brewing: Thank you. Glad to be here still.

[00:01:12] Jessica Infante: Well, I'm glad that you're here still. So, and I don't have to do this alone. Speaking of things that I did alone and that you all are gonna hear, we're gonna have our Brew Talks discussion from Denver up in a little bit here. We're gonna talk national accounts strategies and we have a fantastic panel there. We've got Becca Kieffer Toft from Athletic Brewing, Billy Clayton from Odell Brewing, Elizabeth Isenbart from Juneshine and Ryan Call from Dry Dock Brewing. So stay tuned for that. That's, that was a fun conversation to have. And I think there are a lot of insights in there that you guys are going to take away from that. But, um, let's get back to some of the news and, uh, everybody caught us last week at, uh, the halfway point of our time in Chicago. And, uh, one of the things that we didn't get a chance to talk about was the Alliance For women meeting that you attended Zoe. And this was the first one. I believe the NBWA helps put that on. What are some of your takeaways from that? How did that go?

[00:02:17] Odell Brewing: Yeah, so this is the first in-person event for the Alliance For Women and Beer, which is for women in the industry across all three tiers, supporting women in the industry, but they highly encourage everyone in the industry to participate in these events, men, women, regardless of gender. And it was a sold out event. There was over 300 people there. It was a really nice turnout, a mixture of kind of career help and just motivational talks by some great women who work in beer or work with people in beer. And some discussions on just what the industry can do better to help improve getting more women into leadership roles in the beer industry, being a just better welcoming in more women consumers to the beer industry, because that's a whole nother bag of just beer struggles with. So it was a really great event. I liked it a lot. It was one of the most comfortable events I think I've been to like a beer event wise, just I think It helps when you're a woman to be in a room filled with majority women in general, but it was a really encouraging event of just people that are actively doing things to just make the industry a more welcoming place. And the whole message of the event was, this isn't just, oh, we're trying to help women so that they feel better. It's just a strategic move. It makes sense. But they're bringing up statistics about if you have more women in leadership, you are going to be a more productive company. That's just the general how the data supports that. And you're going to be able to talk to your consumers better. So I liked it a lot. I'm looking forward to future events like that. It was refreshing.

[00:04:09] Jessica Infante: And I really hope that the NBWA incorporates this more into just the regular programming of its annual convention, which it'll be taking place next year in Las Vegas. And that way, more folks who need to hear these messages get these messages, but at the risk of, I guess, filling that room with more dudes.

[00:04:36] Odell Brewing: No, it would be nice. There were men in the room, but there definitely felt a little bit of preaching to the choir, a little bit of like, of course, everyone who was, this was an event that was, you pay extra. It was after the MBWA main conference. So a lot of people had left by that point. So the people who had made a point to stay generally were people who were already doing these things or wanting to do these things. So it'd be nice to see it more integrated into just general content that more people are watching or listening to anyway. But it was still productive. There was a great conversation about privilege that was had with Sarah Bettman, who talks a lot about just diversity in beer. And I think there are still things that women need to work on in general in beer that was actually helpful in that conversation. So it was still productive, but it would be really great to see that help even more people than just those 300 women or mainly women and handful of men.

[00:05:41] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And hopefully I can attend next year because I was split off into the Beer Institute, which was their annual meeting was going on at the same time as this meeting. I guess, you know, one hall apart.

[00:05:55] Odell Brewing: Back to back. We could hear your guys's music playing during the conference.

[00:06:00] Jessica Infante: There was one very regrettable song choice. I think that at one of the breaks, they started playing the boys are back in town, which was like, I don't think it was an intentional choice to do that next to the Alliance For Women and Beer.

[00:06:18] Odell Brewing: But it was a little a little awkward.

[00:06:20] Jessica Infante: Now, these events, they just like their 70s rock.

[00:06:23] Odell Brewing: So yes. Oh, yes.

[00:06:26] Jessica Infante: So anyway, go read Zoe's report on that meeting. And you can also read our reporting on the Beer Institute meeting. And one of the big takeaways, I guess, or one of the big pieces of news coming out of that is the Beer Institute finally has a new president and CEO. Brian Crawford, who was the Executive Vice President of Government Affairs for the American Hotel and Lodging Association is taking the reins at the BI. And he talked a little bit at the meeting just about the existential threats facing the beer industry. And apparently there are quite a few that the BI and its members are concerned about. And mostly that meeting was all about spirits. like all about equalization fights on the federal and state levels and why brewers should care about it and just the uphill battle that the industry faces with getting the message across to state lawmakers really why beer is different from canned cocktails. And it's a struggle. It's an absolute struggle for these lobbyists. And there was one from New Jersey, Jess's home state, Mike Halfacre, great name, Executive Director of the Beer Wholesalers Association of New Jersey. Basically, he had a few poll quotes for us. And one of them was, the canned cocktail is a gateway drug. It's the Joe Camel of the liquor industry. And what he means about that is, The young LDAs, the 23 and 22-year-olds who are buying canned cocktails today, they believe that the liquor industry's endgame is to get them buying 1.75 handles of liquor in the next decade, and they see this as bad for beer, and that's their argument on why a canned cocktail, which is essentially the same ABV, is sold in the same vessel as beer, and is merchandised and commercialized the same way in a lot of markets, why it shouldn't be.

[00:08:40] Odell Brewing: It's a, I can see his point. I don't know if it will necessarily get that far just because of the pure, like, I think the main thing that canned cocktails have is the convenience factor and those handles are still at the end of the day, you making them yourself. I don't think there's going to be transfer as evenly as you might be thinking, but specifically like the distilled spirits council, uh, discus has very effectively marketed the idea of Alcohol is alcohol. I mean, it's the same ABV in some of these products like this. They've been very good at getting that message across. I think it's an easy digestible message for people and that's why they've got a lot of support. I don't know if that message is perceived as well with just pure spirits and like handles of liquor, but they've been doing very well. So I can understand why the BI is freaked out a little bit.

[00:09:41] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and Half Acre said this, and this is something I believe, is a lot of these wounds are self-inflicted on the beer industry. And by that I mean, hard seltzers have been sort of the bridge to canned cocktails. Basically, you're looking at a generation of people who their palates have changed. Your palate is not the same as my palate. My palate has been through the ringer as far as trying to get acclimated to beer and the flavor, the taste, all of that. And I feel like we have a generation of consumers who they're just not into it.

[00:10:23] Odell Brewing: We haven't had to make that, get used to things because we've had so many options that aren't that. So there's, we don't need that journey if we don't want to.

[00:10:34] Jessica Infante: Right. And it's a flavor conversation of hard seltzers have offer offered a more muted flavor, you know, with, with a buzz. And now we're looking at beverages that are more full flavored feel like we're, we're basically talking a little bit about the craft journey for, for some folks, but these are like. If you want a strawberry flavor, you can have a strawberry flavor. If you want a mango chili flavor, you can have a mango chili flavor. If you want something that sort of tastes like Mountain Dew, although it doesn't have caffeine or sugar, you can have that. If you want something that tastes like Simply, you can now have that. You're going to want something that tastes like some of the Monster flavors, you're going to be able to have that, you know? And so just with booze, you know, and this is sort of where we are. And so, you know, I feel like there's more conversation on what this has done to people's palates or how they've changed and why that's going to be a bigger uphill battle than a lot of things as well.

[00:11:38] Odell Brewing: Yeah, I've we talked I talked about a couple of times with some people at the conference like most of the people I know one of our first like drinks that we ever had was like a twisted tea or a Mike's hard like that was like one of the first things we were drinking and so we're used to like the big flavors and the maybe higher sugar content but so we're looking for things similarly in that path and so it's gonna have a big like it's gonna keep going it's gonna be a ripple effect of what we started with into what we're looking for as we get older.

[00:12:11] Jessica Infante: You mean to tell me you weren't slipping people 20s outside of the Casey's to get a rack of natty lights?

[00:12:19] Odell Brewing: I can't say I've ever done that. All right. Absolutely not.

[00:12:24] Jessica Infante: I'm sorry we do not have this shared experience. Anyway. So that was a big part of the Beer Institute conversation. And there's so much more of this up at Brewbound.com. You can go check out and read and get caught up on. There's a new data club that Jess and Zoe did with Nielsen IQ and Three Tier Beverages, reviewing the summer selling season and what's to come next. Got a bunch of stories up. And, you know, one last thing we'll hit you up with before we leave is, the merger of Albertsons and Kroger and why that's sort of a big deal, which is basically food is the second largest channel for beer behind convenience. And there are a lot of sales that run through that channel. And here we have a merger. I guess, you know, the question is, what does that eventually mean for the suppliers who are selling into these grocery stores? You know, if you have a relationship with Kroger, but not Albertsons, you know, what does that mean? And those are going to be questions that are left hanging until, you know, this thing is, is done and we see how it works in practice.

[00:13:39] Odell Brewing: Right. And that's expected to close early 2024. So there's going to be a little bit of time before we see that. But yeah, it's one of those things that we don't, I don't know, at first you're like, oh, yeah, why? Why is Brewbound going to care about a grocery merger? But it has those effects on beer. Big time.

[00:13:58] Jessica Infante: This is going to be a merger that's more than 5,000 stores. It'll encompass Fred Meyer, Rouse, King Super, Safeway, Harris Teeter, I believe. So yeah, a lot more to come on that, and we'll see how that plays out. And if federal regulators are going to let it happen, we'll see. That's, uh, you can read all about that at brewband.com. And then, you know, I guess we should probably get to our featured interview at this point, but I'll, I'll do one plug. We have our brewband live conversations coming up. Uh, we're going to be doing our end of year business conference in Santa Monica. on November 29th and 30th. The lineup is coming together. Pretty awesome for that. We're going to have Brewers Association Chief Economist Bart Watson, Bells Brewery Executive Vice President Carrie Yunker, Maui Brewing CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Marrero, former CEO of Modern Times, and now the Chief Experience Officer for Craft Ohana, Jennifer Briggs. We've got great folks from Molson Coors, Reyes, Funky Town, The Beer Institute, Talaya, Arlington Capital, Shojo, Yonder, ThinkNow, Scout, Schilling, Bump Williams Consulting, Three Tier Beverages, Nielsen IQ. There's a whole bunch more that we're gonna be announcing very soon. Folks from Firestone Walker, Constellation Brands, Much more. So stay tuned for that. Mary Giver from Whole Foods is gonna come back. Jamie Carawan from Buffalo Wild Wings will be there. We're gonna talk retail sales. We're gonna talk national account sales. We're gonna talk distribution, all kinds of stuff. So very excited.

[00:15:49] Odell Brewing: I'm super excited. And we've gotten a sneak peek of some of the content that some of these people are gonna talk about. And trust us, it is going to be well worth it.

[00:15:59] Jessica Infante: There you go. Trust Zoe.

[00:16:02] Odell Brewing: I'm excited. I'm like borderline giddy for some of the content. I mean, it's all going to be great. I'm very excited.

[00:16:08] Jessica Infante: Awesome. Well, let's get to that BrewTalks conversation. All right, let's talk national accounts. Wholesalers surveyed by Tamron Consulting, and I'm a nerd because I read the survey, they consistently say that this is an area that craft brewers need improvement on. And so, you know, you all should check your report cards, I guess. So how do you get in? How do you keep buyers happy? How do you keep your wholesalers happy? How do you even get started? We're gonna talk all about that. So we brought together four sales leaders to answer all these questions and more. Joining us today are Billy Clayton, Odell Brewing, Senior National Account Manager. Thanks for being here, Billy. You're welcome. We've got Becca Toft, Athletic Brewing's Key Account Manager for the Midwest. What's up, Becca?

[00:16:58] Athletic Brewing: What's up?

[00:16:59] Jessica Infante: We've got Ryan Call, Dry Dock Brewing's Director of Sales. Thanks for being here, Ryan. Thanks for having me. And last but not least, we've got Elizabeth Isenbart, Juneshine's Director of National Accounts. Thanks for being here, Elizabeth.

[00:17:11] Dry Dock: Thank you.

[00:17:12] Jessica Infante: So let's get going because each of you are at very different stages of the business. Becca Athletic is now a national brand. You're filling, you've filled out your 50 state distribution earlier this year. When you're in the process of basically completing that map, how do you, you know, focus your team?

[00:17:30] Athletic Brewing: We're super excited to be in all 50 states now. As far as the chain team goes, our focus is currently are expanding distribution within those chains that we already work with, but that we had coverage gaps. It's working with new chains that we couldn't even service prior to filling out the footprints. We're working with our retailers to kind of expand what's available on the shelf for those that we've been working with, and then A lot of it is still an education piece with who the non-out consumer is and has become, what's happening in the non-out segment, since it's still moving pretty fast, and then who we are as a brand, not just that we make great NA beer, but that we're in our local communities doing events, sponsoring events, and using our impact funds like Two for the Trails and our JEDI program, which is Justice, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion, to stay local and support the community.

[00:18:28] Jessica Infante: Billy Odell is the most mature brand here. You're in 20 states, but you've really got a strong focus here in Colorado. When you've zeroed in on a single state while working with the 19 others, how does that affect your approach? We actually just had our first in-person annual business plan meeting ever. So this is kind of top of mind for us, you know, how do we get that message to our entire footprint while also kind of pivoting and focusing on Colorado at the same time. So I'd say for kind of everywhere outside of Colorado, we try to make it simple, make it streamlined, get everyone behind those kind of pillars, kind of all across the board. And then in Colorado is where we get to be really focused at the retail level at the store level, because our portfolio is kind of so deep here. Our brand priorities also change in Colorado because we are so mature that some brands that might not be carry you further outside of Colorado do incredibly well here. But as far as like approach is literally kind of store level. We build what's called a, you know, we call it an account universe. All the SKUs across the top, all the retail stores along the bottom, we look, okay, IPA 12 packs is in. these 72 stores. We want to add these 15 and we get very focused at the store level with the specific brands. So it's definitely a lot more focused, a lot more very targeted in Colorado versus kind of everywhere else is more kind of broad but still having a focus that's simple. Elizabeth, I feel like you need like a flowchart probably now to keep everything straight because June Shine has evolved its portfolio from just hard kombucha to ready to drink cans, cocktails, spirits based ones. And you know, the game is very much different there. So several craft brewers are following this path into RTD can cocktails and those type of products with a different route to market. How has that changed your approach?

[00:20:12] Dry Dock: Yeah, are you offering to make the flowchart for me?

[00:20:14] Jessica Infante: Pepe Silvia style. Yes. Okay, cool.

[00:20:17] Dry Dock: Yeah, it has, I would say entirely changed our route to market from a marketing perspective, from a budget perspective, from a hiring perspective. We I think there's two ways you could do it, you could stick with the current category, nurture it, maybe dip your toe into the other one, or you can pivot and decide that you really want to get into the second one. I would say if you had to choose between the two, we've done the latter, right? I think to really give this thing a shot, we've really decided to pivot as a company. And so from a marketing perspective, like I said, from a budgeting perspective, we've hired from a chain team on the chain team side, I've hired specific people from spirit companies to come in and help me figure this thing out. It's very, it's a very different world. There's different buyers, there's different taxes, there's different ways to deliver to the retailer. So we're really learning as we go, to be honest. And, you know, just our entire route to market, like you said, has been, has been a true pivot. That said, we are dabbling and trying to keep our same distributor partners. So, you know, that's new as well. Trying to bring spirits through a beer wholesaler has been interesting, to say the least.

[00:21:25] Jessica Infante: I'm guessing a lot of education.

[00:21:27] Dry Dock: On both sides, I think, yeah.

[00:21:29] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Ryan, Dry Dock sells beer in two states. At such an early development stage, what advice do you have for starting or even getting in the door or even getting a Zoom call?

[00:21:41] Brew Talks: That's the key, right? We are in only two states. Only one of those is a chain state, though, here in Colorado. So we're still kind of in our infancy there. We have good business, but as we expand out into other chain states, really the key for us internally has been having that conversation of where can we bring the most value to the retailer? Because their sets are smaller. You're not going to get everything in the store. It's not going to go the same way, like Billy said. Lucky enough for Dry Dock, our lead beer is Apricot Blonde, which we feel belongs in that conversation in the fruit category here and in any other states. Dry Dock makes really good IPAs, but is it O'Dell IPA? Are we going to bring as much value as O'Dell IPA? Not saying ours isn't as good as theirs, but we're just not as well known for it. So you really have to have those conversations internally, have your priorities planned out. And then here in Colorado, much like Billy said, may be different than what we do in another state. And then also really targeting, especially here, as we look to expand our portfolio, targeting the accounts where we have the most success. So IPA might get pitched to an account within 20 miles of the brewery, but not outside of that, because that's where it sells.

[00:22:37] Jessica Infante: So let's get into the state of play. And I sort of hinted at it, you know, I realized we're all tired of talking about the pandemic, but there's no question that it's changed the state of play here, you know, on on how these meetings take place. You've gone from meeting in person to to basically virtual all the time. How has this changed the dynamics in the relationships and your ability to get in? And I'll start with Billy. Yeah, this is a, as we all know, this is a very person to person industry. Like, you know, drinking beer is very social. It's, you know, one of my favorite things about working for a brewery is the social aspect of it. And then just COVID nuking it and everything going to virtual, I think is terrible just because you don't get that kind of same face to face building relationships. And honestly, you can't go over on a zoom call. So if you got 10 minutes, 15 minutes, there is no stalling and keeping going like they will be like, Alright, bye. So like, it's definitely cut. cut the you know, I want to say that the relationship aspect and then really the the fun side of selling beer, zoom, I think is here to stay. I think a lot of retailers do like that, you know, they can be in one place and then kind of roll through meetings all day, knock it behind. But I definitely hope and there are a couple you're starting to see it more, more in person meetings again. And I hope that that stays and comes back. But yeah, it's it's zoom has been pretty brutal in some situations. Has that been your experience, Becca?

[00:24:01] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, I think there are some benefits to the virtual side of it. I mean, it definitely, like Billy said, you can't really underestimate the power of like a handshake and legitimate in-person eye contact and, you know, reading someone's body language and the natural way that a conversation goes when you're in person. But I think the benefit on the virtual side is that obviously our personal lives don't suffer as much. There's not as much money being spent. And I think that it also helps smaller brewers, you know, because if you're only doing in person meetings, you're probably meeting with your top dollar sales suppliers. And so it might open up a little more, you know, time availability for the for those retailers to meet with a smaller ones, even if it's, you know, eight minutes.

[00:24:46] Brew Talks: Is it getting you in the door, Ryan? Sometimes. I mean, we've had a little bit of that, right? Like Becca said, if you're not having to travel, and you have a little more time, it can punch through them all in a day, you might get that extra zoom meeting or one you didn't get before. But unfortunately, you also may not get a meeting at all. Still, that's where the spreadsheets and things they asked you to turn in become even more important, because you have to find a way to relay what you would have done in that meeting through those spreadsheets. So you really have to understand your numbers, what you're trying to do the education aspect of it, if that's included. You know, if they give you three weeks to do it, don't wait till the last minute. Spend all three weeks working on that. Have some friends, send it out to someone for a second opinion if you need to. I mean, but that's where we've had success, but it's really been sending in those spreadsheets and the things they asked for and put as much work as possible into those.

[00:25:29] Jessica Infante: Elizabeth, do you think we're going to see a return to normal or do you think it's just going to be a hybrid all the time now?

[00:25:34] Dry Dock: I think it's going to be a hybrid, if anything, because of retailers personalities. There are just a lot of introverts out there that have seen this as a big thank you. I don't have to meet with people anymore. So I think from an efficiency perspective, you know, we met with a retailer the other day that. We said we'd love to meet with you in person and come moving forward. And, you know, she just said, thanks, but no, thanks. I get a lot more done this way. And then there's other retailers that have admitted, I, you know, I prefer to meet virtually. I can get more done and I'm not really a social person. So I think it will probably be a hybrid forever.

[00:26:07] Jessica Infante: Agreed. So in the current environment, as things have changed, what do you see is the biggest difference between, you know, selling into a chain store, chain C store versus grocery versus liquor at this point? And I'll start with Becca.

[00:26:21] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, I think there's three key differences between, you know, those C-Store grocery liquor. It's space, I think speed of adopting trends, and the customer, right? And C-Stores just don't have as much room. You know, they just don't. Everything's in the cooler, it's cold, it's a smaller footprint. They don't have the ability to take as many risks on newer brands or having a bunch of different IPAs or a bunch of different fruit beers, they need what's going to be in there to be efficient and pull and be reliable. And so I think that speaks to the speed grocery stores and liquor stores can they have they have the space to have multiples of styles and see stores need to know the trend is something that's going to stick. And then the consumer. Yeah, they're just totally I think they're totally different. You go into a grocery store, a liquor store, you're probably going to explore a little bit. And as a C store, you're going in to buy beer, you're probably going to drink it right after you leave. So not right. I mean, maybe not right after but pretty soon.

[00:27:26] Jessica Infante: Let's open out right after Billy, do you want to build on that? Yeah. I mean, so we have a really interesting perspective. Odell obviously being based in Colorado was, you know, three, two in, in grocery and convenience and mass merchant until a couple of years ago. So we had really deep embedded relationship with a lot of liquor store owners. And in terms of just building that relationship, the speed to market, launching a new brand, getting commitments, getting stacks, getting displays is more on a store to store person to person relationship. And at the chain level, it's more planned out, you know, You start pitching your items for the spring reset, which happens in March and April, back in June, July, August. So you're pitching these brands nine, 10 months out before they even get to the market. Whereas a liquor store, you could walk in and say, Hey, I got this new beer coming out next week. You know, pre-sell 10 cases, get it in there. Chains just don't work at that same speed. So, you know, they make up for it by having a ton of locations and doing a lot of volume, but it just takes a little bit longer to build that relationship. It takes a lot more planning, having the kind of like your pricing UPC images. you know, if you could have a live sample even better, but you're just pitching so much further out to chains versus an independent liquor store. Elizabeth, as you're doing that pivot in that mix, how has that changed the focus for you guys there?

[00:28:36] Dry Dock: A lot of it is for us is recently has come down to pricing. There's a lot of different pricing models that you can have or do from a spirits perspective or say beer or hard kombucha perspective. And that varies from DSD versus warehouse. So in both grocery, I guess, and liquor, liquor tends to more so be warehouse, but some of these bigger grocery stores have a warehouse that they're getting liquor drops. And then they're pulling from that. So and they're expecting a lower price for that warehouse job. So I would say for us, most of our business is grocery. But as we get into spirits, a lot of it has had to do with pricing and pricing models and how to adjust, you know, what's best for each of those channels.

[00:29:18] Jessica Infante: Ryan is a smaller producer.

[00:29:20] Brew Talks: How do you divide your focus among those three? Yeah, that's really hard. So it's myself doing all the chain stuff from the pitches and everything. And then I have three team members. So if I need to go survey every King supers, my team's not doing anything else other than that, because that's all we have. So we have to work a lot through our distributor. So we can go out and you know, we'll do a survey of the market and maybe only see 30 of the accounts we're in. And then we'll take that information. And if I see a trend throughout those, then I can work really closely with our distributor to try to fix whether it's pricing or out of code beer, whatever the issue is. But I really do have to lean heavily on our distributor and work with that relationship to get things done. Because unfortunately, we just don't have the manpower to go out and sometimes check every account very quickly. So

[00:29:58] Jessica Infante: I want to talk a little bit about mandates. Once you get one, you're golden, right? You don't have to do any more work. Nailed it. Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, Becca, what's a good follow-up playbook for tracking and supporting mandates and working with your Holt sailors to manage reset execution?

[00:30:15] Athletic Brewing: I think it's so important to keep track of where you have mandates, right? If you're not, if you don't have a system of this is what all of our mandates are, and we're tracking when our wholesaler is closing those via depletion data, then you've missed the first step, right? The main point is if you've got a mandate on the shelf, you got to get it in there first. And keeping them accountable, consistently communicating that tracking with your internal team and with your wholesalers is super important. I think that's the number one first step if you do anything.

[00:30:49] Jessica Infante: How frequently do you have to have sales reps or territory managers visiting national accounts to ensure beer is in code, Billy? I mean, in a perfect world? Like in Colorado, where we have majority of our sales team weekly would be perfect. But you know, kind of further you get away, I think 30 days is a good benchmark. And if it's a really far away 90 days, you could probably get away with it. But definitely having a system in place kind of the the closer you are, I think to your to your home market, the more you can keep an eye on it. Keep your rotated merchandise fresh. But yeah, I mean, a perfect world. I'd be in there every week. I'd say 30 days is a happy medium. And I mean, I could live with every 90 days. Ryan, with that three person team, how do you sort of, you know, divide their attention or get them focused on, you know, keeping those mandates, keeping things in code.

[00:31:35] Brew Talks: Like I said, a lot of the first step is tracking your mandates, knowing where they're at. So I can relay those to the team and our distributor and then out on the market a little bit. It's dividing their time on a daily basis. They're seeing some of their top accounts, really good on-prem account, but also sprinkling in, you know, some of the chain accounts each day and making sure that the note they put in after they visit has all valid information. So I can pull a report, you know, when I need to see what's going on. And then again, relay it back to my distributor so we can fix any issues. Nothing's perfect, but I try to find as good of a balance as possible for my team to make sure that we've seen some on a daily basis, weekly basis, but enough that we can get the data we need so we can move forward with whatever's happening at the moment.

[00:32:13] Jessica Infante: With a product like hard kombucha, how frequently do you have to have your people out in the field checking things?

[00:32:19] Dry Dock: Are you trying to say it doesn't move?

[00:32:21] Jessica Infante: No, I'm just saying it needs to be in a cooler or something.

[00:32:26] Dry Dock: So I'm just kidding. In the beginning, right? Uh, all two years ago, we were not shelf stable, so it did need to be kept in the cooler. And that was definitely kind of a nightmare, right? We're like knocking on the dairy guy's door saying, could you move the milk so that I could get to my hard kombucha please? And, and the. spilled and it was gross. So that was definitely a challenge. And we had signs in the back room saying please keep cold, yada, yada, yada. We are now shelf stable and in the with the rest of the beer, so to speak. So it's not as much of a concern as it used to be used to be very much a babysitting process. But now we're just like the rest of the folks in the beyond beer category where we can be kept in the back and stored and you know, ideally on display and well merged. A big thing for us is is cans to lips. So So anytime we get a mandate, we try to plan, you know, demos and sampling opportunities, signage to kind of give it one more point of purchase or one more thing to ensure that the product is getting fulfilled properly.

[00:33:31] Jessica Infante: Elizabeth, I'm going to stick with you for one more question. Joonshine recently stepped away from its DTC platform. Why was that the right decision for you guys? And how are you filling those gaps?

[00:33:41] Dry Dock: Yeah, that was a big learning process for us. So COVID hit, we quickly pivoted, a benefit of being a smaller company is that we can pivot pretty quickly. So we came up with this state of the art DDC platform. We were selling hard kombucha from our brewery directly to people's homes. We have a pretty large following on Instagram and TikTok these days if you go down that rabbit hole. And, you know, it was a really great way for us to get our product into consumers' hands. Fast forward, people are back into the store shopping, and it was just a budget suck for us. It required a whole separate line, a separate packaging, third parties. So we made the tough decision to walk away completely and to put our money into this RTD pivot, so to speak. And it was a big learning process, but we had to go through it. I would advise you look into it or call me later if you want advice before doing it. And really invest our money into retailers, e-commerce platforms. In addition to third parties, we were just talking about voting here and using third parties. We invest in Instacart and Drizzly and advertising with those, as well as the retailer specific platforms, and just try to really support them versus having our own means.

[00:34:56] Jessica Infante: I want to stick on this fourth category talk because we've seen this convergence with BevAlc and an influx of new products to Shelf. I guess, you know, when we're talking about these accounts, how is the competition for Shelf Space and Cooler Space changed, Billy? Great question. Solve it right now. Right here. Here's the answers. No, it's just been incredibly difficult for craft. I think the past couple of years, retailers are going to want to go with something that's proven that's growing fast. It's very exciting. Craft is this continue to lose shelf space. So there's just, you know, more breweries competing for less shelf space, which, you know, is, I don't know, I think it's bad. But yeah, it's just been incredibly competitive. And you know, I don't think it's going to stop, you know, what seltzers now it's gonna be RTD is it's probably gonna be something next. So I think breweries that aren't kind of adapting and revisiting their plans and how they go to market are going to suffer. But I think it's the ones that are paying attention. And you know, Elizabeth said pivot a lot. You know, that's the word, you got to be able to pivot and adapt to the times more focused, more streamlined, have your act together, just because there's there's less space out there. How has the game changed for non out players? Like athletic Becca?

[00:36:02] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, Billy said it great, like there's so many options, and there's still the same amount of real estate. While you know, we're not like a new category that is trying to squeeze into the shelf, there's always been a non ALC section, albeit, you know, kind of small and the same players for a while. So it's when you get on the shelf, I think the most one of the most important things is making sure that you're monitoring your rate of sale and your velocity. Are you hitting the hurdle rates? Are you hitting profit minimums? However, that retailer looks at it because If you're not, you're at risk of getting pulled off. And like we know, there are thousands of breweries and other items out there that are ready to come in and take that spot. And so I think how it's changed is you're paying way more attention to your velocity and making sure you're hitting the requirements basically.

[00:36:51] Brew Talks: Ryan, how has that increased competition affected Dry Dock? I mean, I think both of them kind of said it. You have to look at pivoting, right? So there's not as much shelf space for craft. So what's next? So we've been innovating on the RTD side here in Colorado. Ours are malt based, so they can actually be in grocery. But then that comes down to the education piece of educating the retailer and also the consumer, what it is, why you should buy it, why it's cool, why it's different, where it should go, all those kind of factors after that.

[00:37:17] Jessica Infante: So getting in, well, I guess being malt based, then you don't have to worry about those things that Elizabeth Isenbart of laid out is like different buyers and you know, different laws. Yeah. My world's a little bit easier. It's way easier. Uh, well, I mean, you still got to get on the shelf.

[00:37:33] Brew Talks: Not easier, just easier than hers. Yeah.

[00:37:36] Jessica Infante: How do your priorities and focuses change from off to on?

[00:37:39] Brew Talks: And I'll ask Ryan first. Ours are fairly similar. APRICA being our lead brand, much like being on a shelf space, APRICA always has that spot. And for me, I think it's a competitive advantage because I can walk into an on-prem account and I'm not competing for one of the five IPA handles or the main seller. So there might be less of those handles available, but I should always be in that conversation. So it gets me in the door a lot faster, I feel like, from that perspective. And then I can build from that one.

[00:38:05] Jessica Infante: How's it been for Athletic, Becca?

[00:38:08] Athletic Brewing: I mean, our priorities as far as brand or item priorities are very similar. While they are not as strict and like the order we would like things to be on the shelf are, you know, we cater what we're pitching or our on premise team caters what we're pitching to what's the cuisine, you know, what's the menu, what fits the best. And I think the other thing that is similar is that a huge thing in off premise is making sure you have a price tag on the shelf. Otherwise, if no one knows how much it's going to cost, they're not gonna buy it. Well, it's very similar with being on the menu. So there's some similarities and like you need to be seen. But as far as like our brand priorities, they're close, but we manipulate them based on who we're selling to.

[00:38:49] Jessica Infante: So is that what you're finding Billy? Is that what Odell is doing? You're manipulating those brand priorities. Absolutely. So like I mentioned at the very beginning, kind of, uh, our home market strategy is always me a little bit different because we have been here 30 plus years, you know, so in the state of Colorado, 90 shilling kind of jumps to the top of our list as a on premise draft priority. Whereas in other markets might be a little bit lower and we might, we have IPA. And then at the ultimate day, in terms of the approach of on premise to off premise, or I think they're similar in a respect that you're trying to figure out what is the assortment? How do you add to that mix? And so you know, for us, we'll look like, hey, do you have a fruited sour on draft? Do you have an amber on draft, you have a logger on draft. So the priorities will change a little bit kind of how close we are to Colorado versus how far away. And then honestly, we understand every markets different. So we try to have a couple options that our distributors can choose from and kind of like really fit for what you know, would make sense for that establishment. with a portfolio that's in two very different places, Elizabeth, how does that change your focus for on-premise?

[00:39:49] Dry Dock: Yeah, it's interesting from an RTD perspective, it's, I don't think they're yet, right? I mean, maybe hopefully some of the more hotel aspects where you're really looking for ready to go or ready to drink, but from a bar perspective, they make a lot of them make their own, right? So we're not really focused on that quite yet from a hard kombucha perspective. We're very, I would say contradicting right on the off premise, we focus a ton of on our variety packs, they're definitely our top selling items. You know, that's what our focus is this year. And next, from an on premise perspective, you can't sell a variety pack, or you don't usually sell a variety pack on premise. So we have to shift and, you know, in the off, we're trying to get retailers to understand that our numbers, especially in SoCal, compete with some of the other big craft breweries and to not necessarily pigeonhole us into a hard kombucha category, because We've got the numbers to prove we're a top 10 brand. On the on-premise, we almost play the other side of the coin where we fit that beyond beer category for the person who's looking for something gluten-free or that's not beer, you know, try to take that angle.

[00:40:53] Jessica Infante: What do you guys see as the future of 19.2s in the chain environment? Will RTDs move into that market? Will NA?

[00:40:59] Dry Dock: I mean, I just thought 24 ounce of tequila in the blogs the other day. So. Good luck that with that. But I mean, it's a lot to drink. I don't know. I, you know, our whole company circled that whole thing and said, what do you think of this? I think 19 twos are probably here to stay from a craft perspective, from a beyond beer perspective. I'm really not sure. We've played a lot with 16 ounce in hard kombucha. It's always been a very safe format for us and has done well, you know, from a from a budgeting perspective and from a brewery, it's an entire 19 twos are the same as 16 ounce, so it's the same filler. Whereas you really have to invest in a can filler for 24 ounce. It's a totally different $100,000 part, so I don't know. I think the price point alone in C store for RTD's is just going to be really tough to compete.

[00:41:45] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it's something that in something we've we've talked about. It's probably on the horizon. I mean, it works well for craft beer and we're craft nonalcoholic beer, I think it will definitely be a thing that non-ALC moves into. Absolutely.

[00:41:59] Jessica Infante: Ryan and Billy, with so much competition for that 19.2 ounce space, how does that change your focus on what brands you take into that package space if you go into that space?

[00:42:11] Brew Talks: I can go first because we can't make 19.2, so this is easy enough. But if you could. If we could, it would definitely change it. I mean, like she said, price point is a big deal. So it would be certain brands, ones we thought would have be beneficial. We do on the RTD side. I'm not sure if a nine and a half percent RTD in a 19.2 cans is responsible in any way, especially if someone's going to take it and drink it right away, right immediately after they buy it, as we talked about. But we would definitely, I mean, it'd be very similar. We'd have to look at our book, what we thought was the best fit for that and prioritize it that way. So.

[00:42:41] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and I'd say for us, we really try to figure out or think about where is this 19 to going to go? Is it a C store play? Is it for concessionaire? And one thing we talked about extensively at the brewery is like, can we come out with a beer that's obviously best in class quality at the competitive price point? You know, there's no point making, you know, the best hazy IPA and a 19 to if it's in a cost, you know, 699 a can, and everyone else is 299. So you really got to got to find that balance as a brewery of what your portfolio makes sense, where do you want to have it sold? And then honestly, can you kind of compete at the price points that you're seeing the competition at, because you don't want to be a no man's land. So a lot of things to consider. I mean, I think we've been really thoughtful about it. And I'm sure you got to take into consideration what your wholesaler and what your retailer wants and make sure they're happy with whatever decision. No, we just do what we want. You just do what you want. Absolutely what they want. Yeah. If it makes sense. How are you really trying to dive into what your buyers want? It's a funny thing. You can ask them. So you asked them, you know, what is your focus this year? What are you looking to do with your assortment? What are you looking to accomplish? You know, is it traffic? Is it basket rings? Is it, you know, leaning into a particular segment or category that's emerging? So I mean, that should be one of your first questions with your retailer. If you've got eight minutes. Hey, what are you focused on this year? Obviously, you're going to be pigeonholed into your products, like we don't make a cider, we don't make a seltzer, you know, but I'm going to listen for certain words and see if there's a product that I have that can fit into what they're trying to accomplish. So they're trying to increase basket ring or increase traffic to the stores, you know, which one of my products is going to accomplish that the best for them. But yeah, just at the end of the day, just ask them, you know, what are you hoping to accomplish this year? And how can I help?

[00:44:19] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, ask them. I mean, that's really the best advice. And I don't think it's the most obvious advice. I don't know that I with nerves. And when I first started doing national accounts, I don't know that I was doing that. And then over time, you realize like, wait a minute, I just need to figure out what they're trying to do. And I think it's also smart, like it is beneficial to have syndicated data, which I know costs money, it's not cheap, but it is helpful for you to be able to find some of those instances where you know you can fill a need or a hole, and so maybe you ask them, what their plan is or what their goal is. And maybe you don't fit right into it, but you can pinpoint and tell them something like, I just want you to know, like I discovered this by looking at your data and we have a great item to fill that hole. So I think that's a big piece is if you're, if you have access to it and you're able to afford it, it can be very helpful.

[00:45:12] Brew Talks: I think from the smaller side, if you're not getting a meeting and you can't ask them in the meeting yourself, you're definitely going to get feedback that may be in the form of an ad keep delete list or whatever. But when you get things back from the chain, take a minute and look through it. If you pitch things and whatever your pitch was and you got none of it added, or you only got it added in certain places, that's feedback from the buyer. So you can dial in your next pitch with that information and use it wisely. Not as direct. as getting to ask them in a meeting, but you can take things from what you get from them and try to adjust your presentation for the next one. If you just constantly pitch the same things over and over again in the same way, you're probably never going to get back in. So pivot, adjust, take what you learned, try something different.

[00:45:52] Dry Dock: Yeah, the only thing that I would add is once you get beyond I suppose what you're planning to pitch in terms of doing what we think the retailer wants and support wise, whether that's demos, you know, the innovation might might be really important to them. First to market might might be really important to them, not a lot of bigger breweries. have the ability to do that because it's, you know, they're so focused on their streamline. I think when you're smaller, you might be a little bit more nimble and you can do something like that for a regional or a, or a national retailer. So thinking outside the box beyond just the assortment.

[00:46:24] Jessica Infante: We mentioned these data sources, you know, and you got to pay up for scan data. But we know that there are some sources of data that you can present and pitch to buyers to maybe, you know, pique their interest. What are some that you guys can suggest for, you know, somebody that's out there on a budget?

[00:46:40] Brew Talks: Everyone looks at me. We do have a little bit of syndicated data. We have Colorado State data, but that's it. But I like to use that in conjunction with a lot of other things. We have VIP data as well, so we know where things would be in place. So I can see where we rank in the state, use VIP to show where we're at within that chain. And then I can also talk to my distributor, get information from them. They might not tell you what order the breweries are in or where you rank by name of brewery, but they'll give you a number and they can give you data. So I think it's just getting creative with what you have at your disposal. Obviously, syndicated data is very expensive, so not everyone can get it. But, you know, get creative, use what you can. If you have something, just make sure you understand how you're pitching it. So the buyer, if they, when they question you, you can actually respond to the question appropriately and not look like you just threw something out and hope it stuck to the wall.

[00:47:22] Dry Dock: So this may be a little unique, but it's not necessarily numbers like just straight scan data. But if you use a third party marketing program, so say you're going to do like an enter to win program, and you can scan the QR code to whatever that person has to put in their email address and you know where they live. And so you're kind of getting people's data of who's buying your product that way too. It's not necessarily how many times they bought your product, but you can take that to know where you're most popular around the country. Oh, we got a lot of people scanning in Minnesota. Maybe we should launch in Minnesota. So just a different way of thinking about data.

[00:48:00] Jessica Infante: Yeah, and I'm super pro free, big fan of free. And so one of the places that I was just looking at as your brewery tap rooms, like what is the best selling beer? If you launched a beer, how fast did it, you know, sell out? We have three tap rooms down in Colorado, and we obviously do a lot of R&D beers and it's immediate feedback on what's selling, what's moving, you kind of want to give the retailer or the buyer kind of like any reason to get excited about your brand. Untappd is another one I like to poke around with because you can just talk about like how many unique check-ins, how many check-ins versus your other beers. This is our most checked in beer on Untappd. There's also beer ratings, you know, so if you go to Beer Advocate or other beer rating websites, just kind of give them some indication. And then I've also been a fan of pulling like specific like real person reviews and including them in my presentation. You're obviously cherry picking like the best ones, but it is cool. I think to have someone's like actual feedback about your beer, show it to a retailer, be like people are pumped up. So I think there's a, there's a ton of free things you could do to make your beer interesting, exciting, but definitely, you know, if you don't have a budget for the syndicated data, stick to your tap room is just talk about how many kegs you're selling a week or, you know, what's your best popular, most popular selling beer. Hopefully it shouldn't cost you anything.

[00:49:10] Athletic Brewing: I think too, like publications like Brewbound or Beer Business Daily or the, you know, Mark Brown Industry Newsletter, all those other guys, not plugging for them, but you can sign up for those things and they do, you know, put tidbits of data, whether it's segment or just craft. And I think that's another great resource if you can't spend the money on syndicated data. Sorry.

[00:49:34] Jessica Infante: Sorry, I got some fuzz on my mic there. So we got another audience question here. How has the e commerce played a role in your brand growth? And I guess we'll start with you, Elizabeth.

[00:49:46] Dry Dock: Yeah, we're investing in it heavily. We're putting a plan together for 2023 to really work with Instacart and and drizzly, like I said, some of the other, it's like Mick Mick Mac, Maybe there's, there's ones that tick tock big Mac. I don't know. There's a lot of other ones out there that we are certainly investing in. Our customer is a younger customer and they're all over that. I mean, I use Instacart a lot for grocery shopping for my family. So we have certainly taken a decent amount of our marketing budget and put it toward e-commerce for 2023. Cause we feel a lot of people are still on their phone shopping.

[00:50:23] Jessica Infante: How's that factor in for you, Becca?

[00:50:25] Athletic Brewing: Yeah, I mean, we have an omni channel manager. So it is extremely important for us. You know, they're monitoring what's going on on those, you know, those sites, drizzly Instacart, making sure that our imagery online looks sharp, even on retailer sites, because again, like, you know, being available on the retailers e commerce site is super important. And then as far as our own internal e commerce, we use that data to kind of decide sometimes what makes the most sense to move maybe into a year round item. You know, what are our customers online that are, you know, buying the things they can really only get there? What are they the most interested in? So it's very important to us. And it's a big piece.

[00:51:06] Jessica Infante: Billy, how's that? How big of a piece is it for Odell? I say for us, it's a it's a Ecom like the drizzly instacarts is small for us. And we've kind of focused more of our energy and attention on the the retailer kind of websites. Honestly, just making sure our stuff looks consistent. It is obnoxious. We're like, where did you get this image from like 2005 of our IPA is wildly out of date. We've spent a lot of time and unfortunately, there's no like one solution for everything, because Walmart will do something different than Kroger will do differently than Albertsons. So we've been really kind of learning and piecing together just to get you know, the description right, the image right. Adding enhanced content is another thing we're investing in because I mean, honestly, if you're shopping for groceries, and you have a beer and there's no image, I'm probably not going to buy that. So just even doing the basics to making sure our stuff is streamlined and looks consistent, regardless of what platform or retail you're going to is where we've been spending most of our attention. How have you used brokers to help grow your businesses or have you and any advice with working with them?

[00:52:06] Dry Dock: I guess maybe from a data perspective, like we work with three tier beverage, who I think is speaking next. So they've been really incredible partners for us for our syndicated data. That's been our experience rather than, you know, it's a, seems like a more affordable, what we need. It's tailored, you're getting a custom, you know, hands-on service. You can talk to someone directly, get some updated reports. So that's been our experience, but beyond that, we don't work with brokers.

[00:52:31] Jessica Infante: Becca, is drafting athletics future plans? That's what somebody wants to know.

[00:52:38] Athletic Brewing: Wait and see.

[00:52:40] Jessica Infante: Wow. Maybe that's a cliffhanger for her. I think that's probably a good place for us to wrap it up. Give it up for these guys. These guys were awesome. And that's our show for this week. Thanks to our other one man audio team, Joshua Pratt. Thanks to Zoe for hanging out. We will see Jess very soon. And thanks to all of you for listening. We will be back next week.