Brewbound Podcast: Hear From Green Cheek, Arryved and East Brother

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Welcome to a special bonus edition of the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall, and this week we're going to feature three conversations that were recorded during the California Craft Beer Summit in Sacramento. First, Justin Fonte and I will chat with Green Cheek co-founder and CEO, Brian Rauso, about what it means to have a cool factor and doing what's best for business. Brian Rauso discusses expanding to new tap rooms, including one very familiar space in San Diego. Then we'll hear from Aaron Gore, Director of Partnerships and Community for Arryved, on what's happening in the on-premise channel. And we'll close out this show with a conversation with East Brother Brewing co-founder, Rob Lightner, on focusing on core styles while forging strong community partnerships. If you've enjoyed these conversations, we'll be doing more of them on the trade show floor at the Craft Brewers Conference. Look for us April 21st through the 24th. We'll be in booth 1989. So with that, let's get to our featured conversations. So this is Justin Kendall with Brewbound. I'm here with Jessica Infante. We are at the California Craft Brewers Association Summit in Sacramento. We're joined now by Brian Rauso, Green Cheek co-founder and CEO. You're based out of Orange, California. You got four locations. How are you doing today?

[00:02:08] Jessica Infante: It's good. It's a funny thing. We all have these challenges in our businesses and the brewing. You know, we all have the keynote speech and it's that funny thing is, It is tough, right? We all have our challenges, but I think keep it real what you're doing and keep going forward. So yeah, it's good. I can't say another location came online and our crew is enthusiastic and we just keep plowing through with, you know, our, like we said earlier, is don't make more beer, make better beer and they will follow. So I think that's kind of a cool, you know, what we've been doing.

[00:02:43] Justin Kendall: Yeah, it's a lot of real talk today, but it's like that much needed real talk that we need.

[00:02:49] Jessica Infante: It's painful. It truly is. But nobody wants, I mean, you look at the industry and you don't want to be the doom and gloom, but there is that. And I think that's the reality of, you know, because there's the art of the industry and then there's the reality, the business side of it. So I think that's what me and Evan always look at. Like, he's the artist and I'm, you know, I always, you know, so we go back and forth. So it's kind of fun. He taught me a lot. of the beer and brewing and those things. And I've taught them on the business side. So it's kind of fun. We always have that fight, the yin and yang of the brewing industry.

[00:03:20] Justin Kendall: But I love what you said to us, was that you're doubling down. You see opportunity, whereas some people are folding up. We've seen a lot of bankruptcies, we've seen that closure number rise, but you see a lot of opportunity.

[00:03:33] Jessica Infante: 100%. And it's weird, and it's hard to be optimistic in a very gloomy, like, oh God, I can't do it. And I get it, because we've all been there, right? And I think as all brewers and business owners, there's a cost, but at a certain point when your lease is up, Do I, it's, I'm three years in or four or five years in and like, am I going to sign another lease for another five years of, ah, I didn't really get it and I made some money, but I didn't make enough. So on our side, it's like, the first notification was that way and the second and the third and the fourth, you literally look at it and like, Are we doing it? Yes. Is it hard? Yes. But do you have something to push forward to the next level? And I think that's what it is. And on my side is, you know, that's why the art and the business side, on my business side, I get it. I look at it like you negotiate these things. You have the foundation of a business and you're like, yeah, this is good. This is a good deal. Even if we can't. I always look at, there's always a safety valve of like, if this doesn't work, where am I going? On every location has that. But yeah, I think as gloomy as it is out there, there are opportunities and you just have to push through. And it's hard to say that sometimes because it is a pill that's hard to swallow.

[00:04:44] Brewbound Podcast: So, Brian, you are here at the California Craft Beer Summit for, I'm sure, a bunch of reasons, but you are part of a talk later today called The Cool Factor. And I don't know that I could explain what makes one brewery cool and one brewery not, but give us a little sneak peek of how you guys are going to tackle this topic.

[00:05:02] Jessica Infante: You know, it's funny, Connor from Cellar Maker, we're really friends and, you know, we both, we had a pre-talk and we were laughing at the fact, like, you're cool, I'm cool. I didn't, you know, you don't, I don't think we are. And I don't, he doesn't think he is. And I think it's that weird thing. It's not our perception. It's the industry's perception. It's everybody else. And it might be because, you know, you are pushing forward. You are innovating, you are out in the world. So I think, you know, when we, you do these things, I just think you, you know, the cool factor, I don't think I am. I know Evan doesn't, right? I think you just keep doing these things that you're true to. Like we're, great beer, right? Doesn't have to be more beer. That's what we keep saying is like, if you keep it simple, in your local community, the one brewery that you have, right, the one location, Orange, ROG, right, those people keep us going. And then you're like, this is good. You go to the next place, you make it, you... get a good deal, right? Because that's the problem. A lot of it is on business side. I just look at certain things and I look at them like, dude, that's not going to work. And I don't, you're not being mean, but you're like, once you get a foundation. So anyways, I think that the, the, the, the cool factor, the, I don't know, the, I don't know, whatever you want to call it. I just laugh because like, I don't know, we're just doing our thing. And if people think we're cool, I think it's because we, we have some really cool collabs. We have some really good friends. We look, we respect people in the industry. And what you want to do is you look at them like, God, I'd love to brew with them. Cause I know Evan does that. He looks at them and say, they're making some really great beer. How do we talk to them and say, listen, this is what we do. What do you do? Is there something that I can learn from you and you can learn from me? And I think if you stop being innovative, or at least pushing the envelope, and it might not work, right? I always laugh, like certain things you're like, that wasn't a cool one. That didn't work, right? It was a flash in the pan, you're like next. Okay, so I think it's like if you innovate, I think you become cool by just pushing the envelope and being, and as the money guy, this is a tough one. Dump the beer. If it isn't good, if you don't, if you really wouldn't drink it yourself, you got to get rid of it. That's a hard one to do as a small business or you just, you know, how you dump four grand or five grand as a small brewery.

[00:07:12] Brewbound Podcast: That's so important because if I, if you put a bad beer into market, I am not giving you another chance.

[00:07:19] Jessica Infante: Nope. You might get one more chance. Maybe. Maybe. But that's the whole point is that that one, but we look at it like, and I get it. I mean, you know, we, we put out three new beers a week. So that's a, that's a pushing a like, but. If there's not a beer that we taste, that we say, I wouldn't drink this. Because truly, if it is, and Evan looks at me, it's funny. He sort of comes to me and it's that like, hey, I just want to let you know there's a 30 barrel thing out there. And I'm like, oh shit, did we double dry hop it yet? That's my biggest thing. How much hops went into the soap? That's what I'm like, oh shit. But it's cool that we both understand it has to be about the quality because you're not coming back if you can't make the best and you're not proud of it and all of us drink it. So there's that side. We also do this certain beers that we make. We don't make a lot of dark beers, a lot, because we like certain beers, lagers. There's certain ones we just sort of like, but we'll get off work and we'll all sit there and drink the ones that we like to make. How often do you do that? It's weird. So the OG spot, Orange, right? The Orange location, very small. It's a 4,200 square foot little tilt-up warehouse in the middle of nowhere. That crew, that's where our corporate office is, corporate office. But we do it all the time. We come in and we'll, you know, you'll get off and everybody's like grabs a beer and you'll do a little four ounce. And it's cool, it's actually take them off the brights. So you just go to the bright and you're like, you know, you're testing this stuff. And it's fun is that when you have your OG people that have been there, So your people that have been for years, you're like, hey, do you want to try this new lager we have come out or this new single, you know, Motueka, you know, freestyle farms kind of thing. It's just funny. And they're like, oh, yeah, great. So we do it a lot. Yeah.

[00:09:02] Brewbound Podcast: Now, let's get back to collaborations for a second, because you mentioned this possibly playing into the cool factor that you guys have. How important are collaborations to your business?

[00:09:13] Jessica Infante: I think it's that, you know, Pinehouse, you know, there's a lot of people we collab with that, so Austin, those guys are amazing, you know. Other half, amazing brewery in any other world, right? It's this weird, uneven Europe. I mean, we have, you know, Roosters, we have Cloudwater, we have, right? There's these places that we know and friends of ours. I think it's important, but we don't look at it as the juj factor. Like, we're just like, they make great beer. We want to make beer with them because we learn so much when we go there. We'll teach them as much as our side. And it's weird as people are like, oh, you don't tell them your secrets. Like, are you kidding me? There's no secrets. This is what we do. You know, dry hop. This is the 30 minute edition. This is all those things we tell them like watch because you're going to show me as much as I show you. So I think the collabs are cool. And I think it's it's almost I don't think it's It's this weird thing is that I don't think it gives us as much, or a lot of breweries, as much clout as you think it is. We like brewing with them because they're, the first thing I think is they're really cool people. We will never brew with anybody that we actually wouldn't want to have a meal with Amanda Huang out and you know, that's the first factor with us. So, and secondly, they make great beer, right? But you won't, you're not gonna, like if somebody makes great beer and has a great like image, but they aren't really cool. They're not really nice people. We aren't going to be there. Just not going to happen. So it's funny. It's like, I think on our side, and that might be naive because, you know, you might be able to do it with a big brewery and make it, make it better. But why?

[00:10:49] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah. I mean, a brew day is long. It's long. You got to like those people.

[00:10:54] Jessica Infante: You got to like those people. And it's funny what we start doing the first brew day. You're like, okay, those guys are already gone now because they've been weeks of talking about like, okay, what are we making? You know, what, what is the brew? What, what's the, what are hops? What are dry hops? Like all the down, they got it all down. It comes to the day. We all do that. They, they get together. One of the first things, coffee. We all brew a special coffee. We hang out. We're looking at like, okay, this is gonna be great. We're gonna make it a great beer. Where are we going to dinner? You know, how are we going to hang out for the rest of our days with our friends? What crew members did you bring? Right. What's our crew members? So it's that funny thing. You start interacting past the brew. The brew is great, but it's also it extends beyond that because. They are literally our family now. You know, it's so cool to be able to go to Manchester, you know, Paul, and you hang out with them. You go to dinner. It's, it's, so it's a fun, I think, the extra of just being able to brew with these amazing breweries. So, but the club, like I said, yeah, you do get some good juice because there's some great breweries out there and have a great name and all that stuff. But also, like I said, I guarantee you, we're never brewing with somebody that just, you wouldn't hang out and have a beer with and wouldn't have a dinner. If you can't have a dinner with them, you don't want to brew with them.

[00:12:02] Justin Kendall: I think it gives you a better sense too of what's going on in the market and a better perspective just that you can lean on somebody else and at least hear from them what they're seeing as well.

[00:12:15] Jessica Infante: Oh, it's funny. Connor, we're gonna do this talk later on and me and Connor, we're the business side of this. It's great to be able to talk to them. Like you collab, you brew with them, right? You hang out with them. You can call him up and, hey, Connor, what's going on, dude? What what did you do in this situation? How do you handle this? What do you perceive here? What's the next step? So I think that's what we as a Minecraft is small. We're just trying to battle the big boys, right? Being able to like talk to other people that are like minded about about the beer and about how do we make it in this tough world. And so I think that's what's good. The collab is one spot. There's the beer side, but also you can talk to the business people in that group and just say, hey, how are you doing this? And what are you doing? So it's kind of cool, like leaning on them to be able to just beyond the beer to like, we're all just trying to fight to become, you know, get stay relevant, but also stay in business and grow. So.

[00:13:12] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, I mean, this time of year, we always kind of have a couple as fucked up as this sounds, you know, COVID, like reminiscent conversations, you know, and everybody is remembering where they were this time four years ago. And was there a moment when you guys were making probably one of 70 million pivots where you looked around and were like, we're going to be okay?

[00:13:33] Jessica Infante: And it's funniest thing. The second location we got was Barley Forge. It was in a bankruptcy. It was a tough one, right? And that was December of 2020 or 19 to 20, right? COVID happened two months later. It was that weird thing is like, so the pivot was inside of that thing that we decided to do, right? It was a very big thing, but there was a canning line that was in that, purchase that canning line because everybody knows during that time everybody was looking for canning lines. We just happened to get a canning line in three Sprinter trucks.

[00:14:16] Brewbound Podcast: Oh my god.

[00:14:17] Jessica Infante: At one time.

[00:14:18] Brewbound Podcast: Oh this like saved you.

[00:14:19] Jessica Infante: It was truly God sent and lucky, yes, whatever you want to call that, right? But that canning line was propelled us to be able to, I think we were doing, I don't know, 5,000 cans a month. We went to 60,000 cans a month in this weird, because it switched and, you know, it just happened. And that was that thing I was saying is like, When COVID happened, we were in orange, the OG spot. That all happened and we're like, okay, we have to pivot real quick because all of our tasting rooms are closed. That place I opened was a brewery, but it was also a restaurant, a large location. I can't open that. So now what do I do? That was when I was saying that, you know, we... We got those beers, right? We canned a hell of a lot of it. We opened up for the drive-through, and it was a Friday night, and the line, I walked outside, and I'm like, okay, where are they gonna live or die by who's coming through this line right now? And that's when that, we had 50 or 60 cars lined up in front of our door at five o'clock, and I literally was stopping, and it was our regulars that were there. It was John, it was Dave, it was Sarah. It was these people that, were with us before and I really broke down. I couldn't, it was a hard, it was, it was like one of those times in your life you said, I'm going to be okay because they have my back. And it was the weirdest thing in my life. I don't think I've ever had that sort of like realization that it wasn't about me anymore. They carried me along and they still do this day. So yeah, I was, I was blessed, whatever that was. They carried us and they carried us on for months and years until that opened up and we closed and we opened up. So yeah, we were fortunate to have a really loyal group of people that supported us.

[00:16:08] Brewbound Podcast: That's amazing. You guys had a tough road in California with the restrictions.

[00:16:12] Jessica Infante: Yeah, they cut us a lot. They just, yeah, it was hard.

[00:16:15] Justin Kendall: Well, I want to talk about one of the opportunities that you have coming up, and that's you're taking over the Bagby space in San Diego. Yes. I've heard that place is huge. It's huge.

[00:16:25] Jessica Infante: So, you know, what's the plan? It's funny. It's a beautiful spot. And I think Evan even said it. He was like, if he could ever make something himself, build it from scratch. The Bagby spot was his dream of this. So it was weird to be like that opportunity to be like, talk to them. And, you know, we worked through this deal. And I think the first thing we said to them was, listen, we're friends with you. We love you. this deal is not gonna affect our friendship. So if it does, we're walking, right? So it was that respect for them because Jeff and Dandy are amazing people. Jeff makes amazing beer. That place is beautiful. So on our side, it was like that first initial step was like, and then there was all the business side in between that, right? Back and forth, back and forth. So I think with what we've done, and we took it over technically February 1st, ABC licensing became active February 15th, and we opened March 1st. So technically we took two weeks to get the place going. So I look at it like the space, they already made a beautiful spot. Our side was, Jeff's still brewing. He's an amazing brewer. And as long as he wants to brew with us, he's got a home. Dandy, same way. Like, she's amazing. Her ability to manage, run things. Their crew, I think we took, there were 15 of their crew. We took 13 of them. I think two went off to school. So our side is like, It's about expanding on what they did because the space is amazing. There's an event space. There's three bars. It's a cocktail. So we have cocktails there. We have beer. We're still beer focused. It's always about the beer. I always say we're a brewery first that happens to have liquor, that happens to have food, that happens to have wine. We got to the dance with beer. We're staying there with our partner.

[00:18:11] Justin Kendall: but you should be very happy that you can offer all those other things and meet the consumer who isn't coming in for beer too.

[00:18:17] Jessica Infante: Give them what they want. I think that's the simple thing we keep saying all the time is like, guys, when you jump out of that lane and you're just like, this is all I'm going to do. I'm not doing anything else. You're going to lose. You're going to lose.

[00:18:28] Justin Kendall: Well, this has been awesome. Thanks for doing this, Brian. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

[00:18:34] California Craft: This episode is brought to you by the Craft Brewers Conference, where big ideas, bold beers, and brutally honest shop talk collide. Join thousands of industry pros leveling up their game. Don't miss it. Register now at CraftBrewersConference.com.

[00:18:54] Brewbound Podcast: I am so excited to be joined by our next guest, Aaron Gore, Director of Partnerships and Community for Arryved. Aaron, what's going on, bud?

[00:19:02] Beer Summit: Hey, Jess. Hey, Justin. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, California Craft the first time in my life.

[00:19:09] Brewbound Podcast: No, I don't believe you.

[00:19:10] Beer Summit: Yeah, I have overnighted in 43 states. My sister lives in Long Beach. I've still never been to California until this trip.

[00:19:16] Brewbound Podcast: I'm sorry. You were like the most traveled person in beer. How has this been?

[00:19:24] Beer Summit: Very, very carefully. That's the real goal. You know, they just never invited me. I wasn't going to come here without a good reason. But, you know, so far it's been amazing. You know, everybody has been incredibly welcoming. It's my first time, obviously, in Sacramento. This is a really cool city.

[00:19:37] Brewbound Podcast: It is a cool city.

[00:19:38] Beer Summit: I had no idea what to expect, and so far the food has been spectacular. I got a crepe the size of my head for breakfast this morning.

[00:19:45] Brewbound Podcast: That sounds tasty.

[00:19:46] Justin Kendall: Nice. So you're at Arryved now, building partnerships and community. How are you building partnerships and community?

[00:19:52] Beer Summit: Yes, I love absolutely ambiguous titles that both mean everything and nothing at the same time. Now, with Arryved, I was very happy to come on board with these guys. I've known the company for a very long time. I've known Lauren Bendla, who's the CEO for quite a while. John Kelly, who's our head of growth, formerly the founder of CraftBeak. prior to getting acquired by Arrive. So they reached out to me when they heard I was on the market and it was one of those partnerships that just made too much sense not to jump in on. So as far as what I actually do, I work with all the trade organizations. I'm very fortunate enough to work with the CCBA, that's California's craft beer association, which which manages all those trade organization duties and interfacing with the legislature, providing promotion and outreach for the California beer scene. I work with them, but I also work with those similar organizations all over the country, all the way up to the Brewers Association, all the way down to the individual municipal guilds like the San Diego Brewers Guild. Shout out to Eric Fowler, who's doing fantastic work down there. And I also work with all of our referral partnerships, integration partnerships, and kind of dive in wherever the company needs me to just Be able to kind of provide that craft beer perspective, something that's very important to us. We're entirely focused on the craft beverage industry. And being able to have somebody who's been in it for quite a while be able to provide some of that perspective on what the needs of the membership are, our customers are, and really be able to provide that outlook goes a long way.

[00:21:10] Brewbound Podcast: Awesome. And for those of our listeners who don't know, though I can't imagine that's many people, These Days Arryved is craft beverage producer specific point of sale system. So you guys have all of the at the brewery sales data.

[00:21:25] Beer Summit: Yeah, we are basically the only point of sale system that's focused entirely on craft breweries, cideries, distilleries, purely craft beverage. You know, that's important to us as well, because, you know, Toast Square, some of the other large ones, they have a lot of great data, but there's so much noise in it, they don't really give you any sort of actual insights directly for what's relevant to the people who are at events like this. You know, they need to be able to see things that are relevant to brewery taprooms, not to sports bars and Applebee's. not doing them a whole lot of good. You know, they need things that they can actually use to make their own business better. And for us, just being a kind of source for truth on that and trying to help use some of that data for good, working with Bart Watson from the VA to provide some of those insights for the entire industry, that's important to us as well.

[00:22:07] Brewbound Podcast: So what are you seeing in the On Premise channel right now?

[00:22:10] Beer Summit: Yeah, so things have definitely been hurting a bit over the course of the last few months. I don't think it's any secret to anybody that 2024 is kind of giving the industry a little bit of it on the chin. But one of the chief things that we've seen is that as price hikes happen at the taproom level, we've really seen that customers are kind of willing to come along for the ride on it. Doesn't mean that they're going to want to, but we've seen that there's a decent amount of flexibility among customers when it comes to pricing. And that gives the breweries a little bit of an opportunity to recoup, because when you go out to the grocery stores and you go on distribution, that's a lot less the case.

[00:22:42] Justin Kendall: So how much of the craft market are you capturing?

[00:22:46] Beer Summit: Yeah, so we have 20% of all the craft beverage companies in the US work with Arryved. So we've got a pretty large sample set, and that's been growing pretty quickly as well. So we are really the dominant point of sale if you're just talking about one specific voice in that space. And obviously, our goal is to go ahead and try to provide as much service as we can throughout the industry. And I don't know if y'all have heard on your end, but we also just announced our Arryved Brewery Management System. which is ERP, so that lets us also be able to provide kind of that end-to-end solution, help everything from tank all the way through to tap, and capture some of that business for breweries from the moment that they're producing beer all the way through the tap room and all the way out into distribution, self-distribution, route planning, all of that.

[00:23:29] Brewbound Podcast: That's huge. How many other businesses out there in the industry are capturing that wide of a view?

[00:23:36] Beer Summit: To our knowledge, absolutely none. And that was part of why we wanted to do this, was really be able to look at the two pillars that every brewery runs on. Like every brewery, if they got a tapper, you gotta have a point of sale system. Whether it's us or somebody else, you have to have something to be able to run that side of the business. You're not gonna do all that on paper or by hand. And for ERP systems, if you're running anything other than a very, very small operation, you're going to need something that's able to do things like recipe management, batch planning, inventory, distribution management, invoicing. So every brewery really kind of operates on those two pillars. So being able to provide that side of the solution as well not only gives us a more complete picture of things end to end in the industry, but also means that we can really do what we've been intending to do the whole time, which is be the solutions company for the craft beverage industry, not Just a point of safety.

[00:24:24] Brewbound Podcast: What positive signs are you seeing if there are any out there and at the brewery sales? I mean, I'd like to think there's probably some good happening somewhere out there. What's what's going on?

[00:24:33] Beer Summit: Yeah, so at the actual individual brewery level, I think we're seeing a lot of maturation, and I don't think that's any surprise to anybody. Breweries are starting to really have to become businesses first and hobbies second. It's kind of how it always should have operated, but for a long time it was very tempting to just be able to ride the wave of a growing category. And now we're seeing more sophisticated people, like some of the people who are starting breweries these days are really coming in with more knowledge and more understanding. and just a better sense of what it takes to run a small business, whether that's a corner store or a craft brewery or what have you, than we've ever seen before. We're starting to see some of the resources really rise to meet that as well. The secondary market's absolutely flush right now, so equipment's going for very, very cheap. That is a boon to anybody who's trying to open a brewery or expand a brewery right now. The taproom model, even though we've seen some declines, is still very, very steady and has definitely been the biggest point of stability for breweries. For 84% of breweries, top source of revenue for them is their taproom. For like 99% of them, it's the top source of margin. The areas where the industry needs to be successful, they're actually having more success than you'd see just looking at some of the news. It's just very easy for us to see the fact that closings and openings are starting to approach, you know, a sense of metastasis and take that as being some doomer kind of narrative. But if you look at traditional bars and restaurants, I think something like 10% of all traditional restaurants have closed over the last decade. Like it is absolutely apocalyptic out there for other industries. So compared to that, we're doing pretty well.

[00:26:05] Justin Kendall: So as far as, like, check size, visits, what are you seeing? Where are we as opposed to where we were, you know, a couple of years ago?

[00:26:14] Beer Summit: Yeah, so check sizes we're starting to see creep up, but we've not really been able to get a good sense of that really taking off to the moon or anything along those lines, and I think part of that is just sophistication at that level. individual brewery level. You know, tap rooms, we've seen a ton of success when people do simple things like just greet people walking in the door. You know, we work pretty closely with Andrew Copland over at Secret Hopper, also Craft Beer Professionals, we're sponsors over with those folks, and not only does he provide an enormous amount of utility just connecting people around the network that is craft beer, but also being able to provide some of those objective insights for what works best at that taproom level. And the places that we do see that, that higher level of engagement, that higher level of interaction with the customer, we do see that reflected in the tips and the check sizes both going up. We also see like QR code solutions, things that can be touchless. Sounds counterintuitive, but for some customers, just keeping them from having to go back up into line and continuing to disrupt their conversation and experience, that can be exactly what they need as well. So the places that we've seen had the most points of distribution, just the most touch points for a customer, the most ways for customers to be able to engage with the product and be able to have an enjoyable experience. At the end of the day, we stopped being a manufacturing industry a few years ago. We're an experience industry now. And that's okay.

[00:27:29] Brewbound Podcast: That's a perfect way to put it. Now, Erin, you and I are friends on Facebook. And to me, you are always flying somewhere to some industry event. You are all over the place. That's why it shocks me that you have never been to California. But in terms of, you know, up and coming new beer scenes and new cities where the craft culture is thriving, what should be on our radar?

[00:27:48] Beer Summit: Yeah, I think Florida needs to be on everybody's radar. It's easy to forget about the fact that as many breweries as Florida has, and it does have a ton of breweries per capita, it's one of the lowest in the country. Wow. They still have an enormous amount of room to grow. They're still organizing. It's a very exciting, energetic scene. And you have pockets like Tampa, which are just absolutely crushing it top to bottom, including Sean Nordquist coming in as the executive director of the Tampa Bay Brewers Guild. They're doing some fantastic work, even just really pushing that scene. consolidating and making sure that everybody knows that Tampa is a beer city. That's exciting. Outside of that, Ohio is just really, really exciting for me. That's a state that doesn't get nearly the credit that it deserves, but the beer scene top to bottom, end to end in that state is fantastic. Cincinnati is one of the most underrated beer cities in the country for my money. And a lot of the breweries that are in Ohio just don't distribute outside of the state. So there's not a lot of discovery from people in other regions. So if you get the opportunity to go, I highly recommend it. And then Texas is another one I think deserves a lot of credit. It's another state where Texas breweries don't really distribute elsewhere. Breweries outside of Texas don't really distribute into Texas, but the beer scene there just has an energy to it that is absolutely invigorating. I was at their annual conference about a month and a half ago, and being able to see such a diverse group of brewery owners who are just absolutely unified and united and excited for the future is something that we've kind of lost as an industry. And going to their awards, was amazing. It was like the World Beer Cup or GABF awards, just to see that level of excitement over just getting a medal in English Porter. Like you don't see that anymore. That's what this all has all historically been about. And we don't need to lose that just because we realize we also need functional P&Ls.

[00:29:31] Brewbound Podcast: Amazing. I mean, that's a perfect place to put it. Thanks for joining us. We are here in the Brewbound studio at the California Craft Beer Summit. And our next guest is Rob Lightner, co-founder of East Brother from Richmond, California. Rob, thanks for joining us. How are you?

[00:29:54] Green Cheek: I'm great, and I'm so happy that you said East Brother. People always want to put an S on the end. Because, you know, you name a company with East Brother, they think somebody brothers, right? But East Brother is an island in the San Francisco Bay. It's got a lighthouse on it.

[00:30:07] Brewbound Podcast: just going to ask you where the name came from.

[00:30:09] Green Cheek: That's where it came from. It's an iconic piece of Richmond history. So people that live in Richmond, which is a city of a little over 100,000 people, great industrial history, hardworking people, high integrity. We love being there. They know what East Brother is, but the rest of the Bay Area and never mind California, the rest of the country is like, what is East Brother?

[00:30:27] Brewbound Podcast: So the lighthouse, is it still operating?

[00:30:29] Green Cheek: It is, yeah. It's been there since 18, like since the late 19th century. It was, they wanted to decommission it in the 70s, but this historical preservationist in Richmond saved it. So it's like, it's actually a bed and breakfast now, but it's still an operating lighthouse. So you can go stay in the Victorian house for like a night. It's a little rock, basically, not much to do, but it's super cool.

[00:30:50] Brewbound Podcast: Wait, so one of my, like, runaway enjoying the circus jobs is being a lighthouse keeper.

[00:30:55] Green Cheek: Yes, yeah. Well, what they do is they recruit typically a couple, and it's a two-year stint, and you have to be, you have to, like, know maritime stuff, like how to run a boat, but also you have to be able to make food and run a bed and breakfast. So it's a very unique skill set.

[00:31:09] Brewbound Podcast: Wait a minute. I can do all those things.

[00:31:11] Green Cheek: There you go. Come on over.

[00:31:13] Brewbound Podcast: All right.

[00:31:13] Green Cheek: Yeah.

[00:31:14] Brewbound Podcast: Justin, two weeks notice. See ya.

[00:31:15] Green Cheek: All right. See you later. There's great beer nearby, too, so.

[00:31:18] Justin Kendall: Let's talk a little bit about what's going on at East Brother. Fill us in. What's the latest?

[00:31:23] Green Cheek: Yeah, East Brother. So we just celebrated our seven year anniversary. Happy we made it seven years. Looking forward to more. As I'm sure you noticed from the conferences and the tenor here, things are like challenging in the industry these days, but we're excited. We launched with what we call classic styles. So we just We picked a bunch of things like a Red Lager, a Vienna Lager, and a Pilsner. We call it Bo Pils, Bohemian Pilsner. We have IPAs, we have an oatmeal stout, we have a blonde ale. But from day one when we launched, and we're mostly distribution, we do have a taproom, but we're out kind of in the middle of nowhere, so we make people work to get there. People do come to the taproom, but from day one, the lager is sold. And those two that I mentioned first, Bo Pils and Red Lager, close to two-thirds of our volume. Honestly, we've never been a brewery that is sort of thumping our chest with, you know, chasing trends essentially. And so I'm kind of excited about where the market is right now because it feels like it's calming down a little bit, right? And people are wanting, you know... just reliable, delicious. In many cases, I know that there's kind of a bifurcation in the market. There's, you know, the high ABV, you know, booty rangers of the world out there that are doing very well. But I think people, there's also this sort of culturally, this movement towards health consciousness and low ABV beer, easy drinking, reliable. That's kind of, I feel like there's a little bit of a shift towards that. So that's what we've been making.

[00:32:51] Justin Kendall: Well, when you think about the craft market and where we were in the mid 2010s, those people are now, you know, it's been a decade, you know, since we were at that point. And the people who got into craft then are probably, you know, in their late 30s, 40s now, you know, and they have families and they, you know, like, yeah, well, yeah, I've got a two year old too, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not kicking back, you know, 9% Voodoo Rangers, you know, every night or any night really at this point. So, you know, I need something that's a little more, you know, my speed at this point, which is in that low range. So you're speaking my language.

[00:33:37] Green Cheek: Yeah. And it's almost it's that that journey that you in any category, really, you start with something, maybe this is like a gateway to the category. And it's big and bold and flavorful. And, you know, it has all the things and then you realize there's other things there. And that's like what we love about classic styles. We have the ones I mentioned are core beers, but we do some limited release, very small batch, but we'll do like a Maibach, you know, and nobody knows what a Maibach is, but it's a beautiful style. And so we can we can mine that library, you know, of styles that are out there, introduce people to them, and move on to the next thing. But it's all, you know, it's most of what we do. We do some high alcohols, higher ABV stuff, but most of what we do is low. And that's where we feel like, as you said, Justin, people's tastes kind of evolve into a broader category of maybe a little more calm and understated things.

[00:34:29] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, I feel like the prior, things are not this way anymore, but the prior, you know, life cycle of a craft drinker was, at least when I was coming into the industry, was like, you start with, like, fruited wheat beers, and then you move up to barrel-aged sours and imperial stouts and stuff like that, and then you come back around to sessionable lagers. But, you know, along the way, something kind of happened where all of a sudden we had, you know, 9% juice bombs and pastry stouts, and then people's palates got all wonked up, and then you know, today's LDA, you know, entry-level drinkers are coming in from stuff like hard seltzer. So I don't really know that we have that product life cycle anymore, but.

[00:35:13] Justin Kendall: And the taste development too, the palate is completely different.

[00:35:17] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Something I always kind of forget is that like high school kids are so hopped up on energy drinks these days that like their palates are calibrated to something that's kind of inconceivable to the rest of us. So.

[00:35:31] Green Cheek: I mean, teenagers have always had, you know, orange soda and just like big flavor stuff, right? Chris Shepard yesterday in his presentation used that, he used the phrase lost in the flavor cycle. That's like stuck with me. Like, yeah, because there's always, especially with the movement, you guys have talked about this a little bit, but the move from, you know, orange juice to hard orange juice to, you know, Mountain Dew, all the things. And those, I'm, I'm. I'm really glad we're not messing around with all that stuff. Like, I just want to stick with something that's tried and true that, you know, again, there's a lot of headwinds right now, for sure. Not doubting them, but we feel like there's people, there's always going to be a market for that and people appreciate it.

[00:36:10] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah. Well, like Chris was saying yesterday, once you get stuck in that feedback loop, you really kind of can't get off the ride.

[00:36:15] Green Cheek: Yeah, it's a hamster wheel. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:17] Brewbound Podcast: Well, so I was looking at your website. East Brother distributes to California, Texas, and Pennsylvania. How did that footprint take shape?

[00:36:24] Green Cheek: It makes me think of what Rob Todd said. you know, when we started, we're like, all right, let's go, you know, let's, let's, we got an opportunity here, we got an opportunity there, let's, let's pursue everything. And honestly, I'm with him. Now in terms of focusing, we are distributing to Japan, which we're happy with. And it came about, you know, we have modest expectations, but I used to live in Japan for about five years after college. So I could speak the language. I studied it in college. And so I always kind of dreamed, God, it'd be great to sell to Japan. So it's not like core to the business, but it's fun. We went last fall. We don't get out much. We're basically heads down just trying to run this business. But we actually gave ourselves the permission to go. And we had a great time. We connected with people, got to talk to people in their own language about our beer. And so stuff like that will come up and we'll do it, but really it's, I'm totally with Rob Todd in terms of, you know, not being, what do you call that phrase? A mile wide, an inch deep. Yeah, like I'd much rather just. There's so much opportunity where we are. You know, we're in a state of, what is it, 40 million people? Yeah. We're distributed by one wholesaler throughout the state. We love them. Break their beverage. And so that's what we're focusing on.

[00:37:38] Justin Kendall: Yeah. Yeah. I was curious about the export market, though. You know, you bring up Japan, you know, what what is the appetite for craft in Japan?

[00:37:46] Green Cheek: I talked to a few people when we first opened, and it's kind of interesting. I feel like it's kind of mirroring what's going on here in that when we first talked to them, they were like, if you're an American craft beer brewery producer, we only want your IPA. And I'm like, well, you know, okay, well maybe we'll talk later. And now, as of, we started up this conversation mid last year, and we just sent them a first order last month. They said, well, actually now, Japanese craft beer enthusiasts are looking for some lagers, and looking for, you know, going to broaden out from IPA. So, that one, that's why we pursued that. You know, we've looked East Brother export markets, but you know, getting back to my earlier comment, there's just so many hurdles to it that from packaging to pricing to freight to just, you know, finding the right person. And it's it's to me, it's just too complicated.

[00:38:39] Brewbound Podcast: I mean, it's hard enough to do that here to another state where we all speak the same language and you're dealing with the same federal regulations.

[00:38:45] Justin Kendall: But so as far as getting closer to home, how's the taproom business going? What are you learning from that in this competitive environment that we're in.

[00:38:56] Green Cheek: Yeah, I mean, that's where we get into the discussion of headwinds. You know, there's just so many... I can't honestly, man, I can't make sense of the on-premise business. And I'm thinking about, you say taverns, there are taverns, but most of what we sell is to bars and restaurants and liquor and bottle shops and grocery. But in the on-prem world, there's, in the Bay Area at least, there's as many, it seems to me, there's as many thriving, there's a lot of places that are struggling for sure, but there's a lot that are doing really well. Some of the downtown areas are challenged because of remote work and all those things we know about. San Francisco, Oakland has it, some other cities as well. But then there's a lot of neighborhoods where maybe people aren't going downtown, they're staying where they live. And they're going out for a coffee and a beer at three o'clock on a Tuesday, whereas they would have done that near their office, you know, five years ago. And now they're doing it in their neighborhood. So a lot of places in the neighborhoods are thriving. So it's hard to make sense, honestly. Yeah, I mean, our taproom's doing fine. Again, it's not, it's, I'd say it's good.

[00:39:57] Brewbound Podcast: Wow, that's great.

[00:39:58] Green Cheek: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's one of those things where, well, the city of Richmond doesn't have a lot of infrastructure that way, and so having a space that's, you know, 3,000 square feet, and our brewery's 12 or 15, well, 12 and a quarter, that's allocated to the taproom, and a big space where people can come with their dogs and their kids and strollers and, you know, play cornhole and play pool and have a party and an after-work thing. Like, there's not a lot of... A lot of venues like that in the city of Richmond, so people appreciate that and we're happy to provide it.

[00:40:28] Brewbound Podcast: What do you think brewers in other states can learn from what's happening in California Craft now?

[00:40:33] Green Cheek: That is a tough question. Sorry. Building community, you know, that because that for us, we didn't really we plan this as a production, make beer, package beer, sell beer out into the world. And of course, we're like, well, we got the space, let's do a little tap room, you know, throw some tables and chairs out there. And that even though it's a small portion of what we do, gets a little loosey-goosey, I guess, but from a meaningfulness point of view, that's really where it hits home. It's almost like coming to this conference. I was thinking I wasn't going to come, and I'm going to go, and helped by what I saw. You guys were like, hey, come by and talk to us. I'm like, okay, I'll go. And all the personal connections that I'm making here, either new or revisiting old friendships, that's kind of why we're doing this. And so from the Taproom point of view, and being not only people coming into the Taproom and having non-profit fundraisers and vendor days where we highlight local entrepreneurs, it just feels so good, you know? And then with our wholesaler, just getting to know those folks. They break through Bott Wine Warehouse, it used to be Wine Warehouse, yeah, you guys know this. They hired a lot of new people, a lot of new faces. We had a meeting at our brewery a week ago, actually, was it last week? I think it was a week ago, it was on the first, where like almost 100 people from Breakthrough came in. And it was like a, you know, it was just a regular day of meetings, but they held it at our brewery. And it was just like, the energy was electric. And all the personal connections we made, and getting out into the market and talking to people, that's kind of like why we do this. So that whole thing about building community, it's real.

[00:42:08] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, something that's really popular in my town right now with, I mean, we've got three breweries, a cidery and a distillery. And I think all of them have hosted a book fair.

[00:42:18] Green Cheek: Oh, yeah.

[00:42:19] Brewbound Podcast: Isn't that so fun? Like the bookstore in town has been hosting, I think they're calling it Boozy Book Fair. And it's basically like the Scholastic Book Fair Day for adults. So That's a good idea. You're welcome.

[00:42:30] Green Cheek: Thank you. Thank you. We did a, you know, Jeff Allworth. He came out with the Beer Bible, the second version of it, two or three years ago. He did a little tour and he did one event. One of his stops in the Bay Area was at East Brother.

[00:42:44] Brewbound Podcast: Oh, nice. He did a book reading at Notch, which is, you know, one of my local breweries. And he had, it was Jeff in conversation with Notch owner, Chris Loring, and Chris invited me to be the moderator. Nice.

[00:42:57] Green Cheek: Yeah, it was.

[00:42:59] Brewbound Podcast: But yeah, you know, it's just events like that that. you know, that's a great way to tap into your local super beer geek group. But, you know, you could also hit up the book fair and bring in other people who maybe haven't even been to the, been to your taproom before, but they're nostalgic for book fair day.

[00:43:15] Green Cheek: I almost, I almost err on the, I'll do that all day long, like that kind of thing. But, but I almost, I like the things that are really inclusive and, and as you say, result in people coming there that wouldn't ordinarily come to a brewery, you know, and they discover it and, Maybe they'll only come back, you know, twice a year or something, but still, like, they know it's there, they know it's part of Richmond. You know, they feel a pride. The motto of Richmond is pride and purpose, so.

[00:43:41] Justin Kendall: That's how that connection forms.

[00:43:42] Green Cheek: Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:44] Justin Kendall: You make fans. Well, this has been awesome, Rob. Thanks for taking the time out to chat with us.

[00:43:49] Green Cheek: Thank you for having me. Jeez, you know, any opportunity I get to have a platform to yammer on about East Brother. I always take it. It's our pleasure.

[00:43:58] Brewbound Podcast: We're happy to share ours.

[00:43:59] Green Cheek: Appreciate it. Nice to meet you in person, too.

[00:44:01] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, for sure.

[00:44:03] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to my colleagues, Jess and Zoe for all they do. Thanks to our audio team, especially Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.