Brewbound Podcast: GABF and NBWA Field Reports, Plus Brew Talks’ Portfolio Strategies Beyond IPA

[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before The Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with The Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head The Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch The Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. We're on the road again, and we're going to talk about it next on The Brevin Podcast. Hello and welcome to The Brewbound podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I'm the editor The Brewbound and I'm joined The Brewbound's resident road warrior, Jessica Infante. How are you doing, Jess?

[00:00:56] Dogfish Head: I don't know. Like, I don't know what time zone I'm in. I don't know what city we're in, but I'm happy to be here.

[00:01:03] Jessica Infante: You are in the Central Time Zone. We are in Chicago at the National Beer Wholesalers Association's Annual Convention. Excellent. And you have been, as Johnny Cash would say, you've been everywhere.

[00:01:18] Dogfish Head: I have been everywhere, man.

[00:01:20] Jessica Infante: And also joining us is Zoe Licata, not as much of a road warrior, but you know. Just about, though. Just about, like a few days.

[00:01:29] Dogfish Head: One less trip.

[00:01:30] Jessica Infante: One less trip, yeah. So this week's episode, because we're on the road, we're not going to bring you a featured interview. We're going to bring you Brew Talks conversation that we did in Denver just a few days ago. This one is on portfolio strategies that go beyond IPA. Jess is going to be talking to Jess Fierro, the owner and head brewer of Atrevida Beer Company. Mark Szaferik, the brewmaster of Dogfish Head. Kyle Ingram, the brand director from Sierra Nevada. And Mary Mills, a consultant for Three Tier Beverages. That was a great conversation and y'all are going to get to hear it. And we're going to talk about all justice travels and all of Zoe and my travels. So yeah, stick around for that after we break down the news and, you know, talk about what's been going on here on the road. And Jess, we talked a little bit last week about NACS. You were at NACS, the convenience store. like trick-or-treating event. Yeah. And last week we were at the Great American Beer Festival and we did Brew Talks. Yep. Now we're in Chicago and we're going to talk NBWA. But first, let's get to some of you guys' takeaways from the Great American Beer Festival. I only went to Thursday night session. You guys did a couple sessions. So I want to get a feel from you guys to see, you know, what you saw and see if it matches up with what I thought I saw.

[00:02:57] Dogfish Head: Well, I think it would be really good to hear from our first timer. Zoe, what were your first impressions of the Great American Beer Festival? Some of it was what I expected. You guys gave me a lot of prep of the costumes and the pretzels and beef jerky necklaces and the various smells. Although I think it was a little underwhelming. I feel like it was more in a little bit of like some pure chaos, but we also went on like the more milder days to avoid that. Yeah. tried a lot of decent beer make sense but didn't think about how there wasn't really a lot of new england breweries which is my people what i'm used to that's good we got you out of your comfort zone yeah yeah got to try some new stuff but it was cool jess and i got to go to a beer and cheese pairing which was honestly the highlight of this great event yeah That was awesome. Yeah. You know, throughout Beer Festival, the BA puts on like speaking events and like informational educational workshops in what's called the Brewer Studio on the convention, you know, on the fest floor. and everybody wears like headphones so you can actually hear the speakers. And the session that we went to was featured Henry from Mob Craft, which is a Wisconsin-based craft brewery, also has a location in Denver, and Michael Landis, who is a beer and cheese expert. So we tasted four beers with four cheeses. We got to sit down for 45 minutes. It was great. Like this is how you know you're old, like sitting down and eating cheese. It was honestly it was great that like concrete floor will do a number on you.

[00:04:42] Jessica Infante: Oh, it's rough. There is a certain old man on this podcast who left Beer Festival after two hours, two and a half hours, because that that's generous. He was. That's generous. Wow.

[00:04:54] Dogfish Head: Yeah, that's a little generous for sure.

[00:04:58] Jessica Infante: I thought I made it longer, but maybe not.

[00:05:01] Dogfish Head: You know, I don't know. Time time means nothing to me anymore.

[00:05:04] Jessica Infante: It shouldn't.

[00:05:05] Dogfish Head: So the convention center Center, home of the big b construction. So the G. A footprint as you heard Bo I think it was kind of noticeable. Also missing from GABF this year, I personally felt were like really large scale brand activations. You know, like I miss like the Buffalo Wild Wings Palace of GABFs of yore. So we didn't really see that. There was a lot more vendors than I ever remember selling like not food, which was interesting. So I hope, you know, it was fruitful and worth the ROI for all of those businesses. We saw some some long lines at Bottle Logic and Russian River, Weldworks, Beachwood, Firestone always had a long line whenever we walked by. Yeah. Allagash White sold out on both of the sessions that we went to, which were Thursday night and then the Saturday BA and American Home Brewers Association members only session.

[00:06:02] Jessica Infante: The gold medal winning Allagash White.

[00:06:06] Dogfish Head: Right. I don't know what they did this year, but they really stepped it up.

[00:06:11] Jessica Infante: 2022 Allagash White greater than Allagash White 2021.

[00:06:17] Dogfish Head: And if you don't remember last year's GBF Awards drama that we're referring to in the Belgian White category, the judges named a bronze medal winner and a silver medal winner, which was Allagash White, and then no gold medal winner. But they remedied that this year. Allagash White got its rightful gold. Another New England brewery with a gold was Samuel Adams winning gold in non-alk for just the haze, which was interesting to me. Had a few of those. I think that's something all three of us noticed and appreciated was how many NA offerings there were on the floor. Yeah, so many. Yeah, I think we tried almost all of them.

[00:06:55] Jessica Infante: Yeah, that to me was one of my big takeaways this year is such an increased presence of non-alcoholic beer at Beer Festival, which smart because you're pouring all kinds of various ABV beer. It's nice to have something in your hand that you can take a break every now and again.

[00:07:16] Dogfish Head: Yeah, it made like the whole experience much more manageable because like, you could just find one on your journey throughout the whole thing. You pace yourself. Yeah, there was athletic and partake and groovy rationale. Hoplark. Hoplark was great. Syria, which is Keith V is new brewery. Well, not new, but Keith V is current brewery, which is completely alcohol free instead of being, you know, 0.5% or less. Deschutes had non-ALC, you know, Black Butte Porter. The Sandbooth had their non-ALC. Two Roads had a non-ALC. It was nice.

[00:07:53] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I think that's a great addition to Beer Festival. That was one of my big takeaways. The other one, and granted, I only went to one session. It was a Thursday night session, and I'm sure the Broncos game siphoned off a lot of people. Yeah. But I think that you might have been the youngest person in the building, Zoe.

[00:08:14] Dogfish Head: Yeah, yeah, I felt that a little bit. I think I was the second youngest person in the building and I'm 37. Yeah, but it definitely didn't feel like newer drinkers were there. It felt like a lot of people who have been supporters of craft for a long time. Which is nice, you know? Yeah. those people come out to celebrate craft. I mean, the volunteers, you know, GBF gets thousands of volunteers from all over the country. The event really couldn't happen without them. So I'm sure everybody, you know, really appreciates them. But I felt like the volunteer crew was on the older side. And I hope, you know, like the fact that I was excited to sit down, I hope they also got to take some breaks.

[00:08:57] Sierra Nevada: Yeah.

[00:08:58] Dogfish Head: What were some weird beers that you tried, Zoe? I had a neon green sour from Eagle Park. Ecto cooler, I think is what it was called. It like bright green, looked radioactive. That was probably the craziest looking at least. How was it? It was a sour, like nothing crazy about it. Kind of citrusy. And someone told us about a boba sour. Weldworks, I believe. Weldworks always had a crazy line. Yeah. And they have they do like something that I think is really cool. I'm like the one side of their booth. They do a line for brewers only. But I didn't know if we counted. So we didn't try.

[00:09:37] Jessica Infante: You do. You've got a badge. You're you're good.

[00:09:41] Dogfish Head: But I noticed that boba sour was already gone by the time we got there on Saturday. So apparently everyone wanted to try it. It had apparently they had like actual boba bubbles in it, too. So there was some chewing. Not for me, not for me. Um, we still have friends, which is nice. Yeah. We, um, we stopped by Russian river to see Natalie Chalurzo. Um, we took a pic with her. So she likes the podcast. So Hey girl. Hey, we stopped by holla daily, which is a woman owned gluten-free craft brewery in Colorado and a 2021 The Brewbound rising star. We chatted with founder Karen Hertz for a little bit. And then we swung by Modern Times and saw our girl Miss Jenny Briggs. So our way out on Saturday was was stacked with some some great people to bump into. Yeah, that last hour was a lot of beer women. It was awesome. Mm hmm. Who's the girl power?

[00:10:40] SPEAKER_??: Mm hmm.

[00:10:41] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I was glad to see so many people from Tommy at the Lost Abbey to Jill at Pizza Port and, you know, Mary at Whole Foods, like got to say hey to a bunch of folks, the folks at Ryan Geist, we got to hang out with them for a little bit. So, you know, if we missed you on the road, we're sorry. But it was great to see the folks that we did. And now, well, and I guess we also had Brew Talks event. And it was great to see everybody come out and support the Colorado Craft Brewers Guild. And yeah, I had a great time Brew Talks. I hope you guys did, too.

[00:11:15] Dogfish Head: Mm hmm. Yeah, Brew Talks great.

[00:11:17] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Good conversation. Some news that came out of it that you guys will hear on this week's episode.

[00:11:22] Dogfish Head: So I know I would just like to reiterate that I fucking love a scoop.

[00:11:26] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:11:28] Dogfish Head: of news, of ice cream, really anything.

[00:11:31] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And now we're in Chicago at the Annual Convention of the NBWA. And we've seen a ton of folks here that, you know, it's just great to catch up with them as well. And also shout out a few of our podcast listeners from Carolina beverage, Carolina premium beverage, that is. Aaron Caffey over there. Hey, Aaron. Said some very nice things and the folks over at Paradox Brewery. Got to see those guys and Peter Highmark from Highmark Distributing. So hello to all of them and everybody else out on their routes listening to us. That's awesome. And, you know, so far, day one here at the NBWA is a little bit of the airing of the grievances. A lot of issues around blue cloud distribution, the distribution arm that Pepsi has created to distribute hard Mountain Dew. And that's led to some news recently. Last week, Reyes subsidiary premium and Blue Ridge Beverage both filed a complaint with the Virginia alcoholic beverage. Commission basically saying that Boston beer. Formed a, and I think they described it as an unlawful scheme to get around their exclusive distribution agreements and to route hard mountain do through blue cloud. And so they're asking. several things from the ABC, including the nullification of Boston Beer's distribution agreement with Blue Cloud and to basically appoint them as the wholesaler of Hard Mountain Dew. So that's the first known challenge, I think, out there by an existing set of wholesalers against Boston Beer on this.

[00:13:23] Dogfish Head: Yeah, I mean, there's been a few letters in states filed. Like, I want to Sierra Nevada had something similar a couple months back, but this is certainly the most substantial.

[00:13:32] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And it's very much a wait and see sort of thing of what the ABC decides, and if this is just the first domino to fall and others will follow. And Zoe, you wrote about this on the day one talk. Craig Purser, the NBWA president and CEO, mentioned Blue Cloud a lot on stage.

[00:13:53] Dogfish Head: yeah one of the like main topics really was this didn't use the word threat but it felt like threat of beverage companies coming into Tier Beverages alcohol space and particularly in with distribution and he shared some concerns one was just PepsiCo is used to being able to pay for certain shelf space. You can do that in soda, but you can't do that Tier Beverages alcohol, and so there's concern there that maybe those existing relationships with retailers are going forward with their alcohol offerings as well. He also shared some photos of Hard Mountain Dew next to some non-alcoholic products, including some targeted towards children, so like Kool-Aid and Hot Wheels, everyone's alarm bells went off there. So some red flags going on for at least the MBWA and what's going on with that there. I mean, of course, they're going to want that distribution to go through them because this is a beer product, but it's new territory. We had a press meeting today and Lester was like, we knew this was coming, but now it's happening. And so we're seeing, like, how do we actually regulate this? And how do we make sure there's still competition?

[00:15:14] Jessica Infante: It's funny, too. I mean, not funny, but, you know, odd that there's not been more of a public outcry against some of those placements. Like, I don't know when I was growing up, like if there was anything like that, people freaked out. And in this era of like social media, you would sort of think that there would be a little more chatter and rumblings. But

[00:15:36] Dogfish Head: I mean I think everybody right now is just clutching their pearls over like rainbow fentanyl showing up in trick-or-treat bags right now. the current think of the children panic. Yeah, Lester Jones made an interesting point today that like we've been slowly culturally moving towards just like general acceptance of alcohol in more places and like most venues that you can bring your kids to will be serving alcohol and like there's not as much of that barrier between children and where these things are served. Cocktails to go are now more accepted mainly because of what everything that happened with COVID. So like there's just there's more and more freedoms that are happening. And I think socially, we're a little bit more expecting of it or accepting of it than maybe in the past.

[00:16:24] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, anything else you guys want to hit on NBWA?

[00:16:27] Dogfish Head: Got to try some new stuff, which is cool. I only got to try the new Truly Vodka Seltzer. What'd you think? Not bad. What else did we try at the trade show? I tried this coffee vodka combo.

[00:16:44] Jessica Infante: Yeah, 13.5%.

[00:16:47] Dogfish Head: Yeah, we saw our friend Wyatt from Sun Ice. And they have some new shot sized versions coming out right now that are going out right now. That are very cute. They're very cute. Cute little pouch babies. Yeah. Adorable. The like, packaging can come off so you can like rip the top off and just slide it into your fridge. And I like that. That's very satisfying. But adorable. I sent those to my friends immediately. Speaking of things that may or may not look like they're for children. But the sun ice pouches very clearly say contain alcohol in several spots. Oh yeah. Yeah. They got the big ABV on there and everything.

[00:17:31] Jessica Infante: I think the only thing missing is like a flashing sign at this point on it that's like, you know.

[00:17:36] Dogfish Head: Yeah.

[00:17:37] Jessica Infante: Anyway.

[00:17:38] Dogfish Head: Should we cover Reyes's second acquisition last week?

[00:17:40] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I was going to just get to that. There was one more Reyes deal last week, a day after reaching a deal to acquire Capital Right Distributing just outside of Austin, Texas and add its 11th market. It's like, oh, we're going in at our 12th market. And that's going to be Hawaii with Paradise Beverage.

[00:18:00] Dogfish Head: Yeah, another state. Hawaii's had a couple of interesting deals in the past few years. Last summer, Anheuser-Busch sold their AB1 branch in Hawaii to Odom, which is interesting because on the mainland, Odom is not an AB wholesaler, but in Hawaii, they are.

[00:18:17] Jessica Infante: Yeah, they have both. ABN, of course.

[00:18:20] Dogfish Head: They have both. Justin, I think that this merits a trip to the Hawaiian Islands to do some in-person research. Just see, you know, day in the life of Odom, Hawaii.

[00:18:31] Jessica Infante: Well, I did see folks blaming you for the Capitol right deal, or at least saying that you were in Austin, you know, doing your investigative journalism. And that's right. Apparently, you didn't make it to Hawaii for that investigative journalism trip.

[00:18:45] Dogfish Head: But no, the The Brewbound travel budget has not funded that yet.

[00:18:50] Jessica Infante: I mean, we've sent you to Vegas. We've sent you to Denver. You're in Chicago now. Like, what more do you want?

[00:18:56] Dogfish Head: I've been to all these places a bunch of times. I want to go to Hawaii.

[00:18:59] Jessica Infante: How about Ohio?

[00:19:01] Dogfish Head: Gotta talk to Garrett, man.

[00:19:02] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:19:03] Dogfish Head: Yeah, that's somebody who has not been in Hawaii in a long time. Not so true.

[00:19:07] Jessica Infante: someone else that we saw on this trip.

[00:19:10] Dogfish Head: I know the list keeps going.

[00:19:12] Jessica Infante: Yeah. The details on this Reyes deal, it's expected to close in early December. It's just under 9 million cases and 2300 customers, key suppliers, Molson Coors, Constellation Brands, Boston Beer, Diageo, Heineken USA, and Nowey Brewing. So three deals in basically the span of a month, Reyes is firmly over 300 million cases now.

[00:19:40] Dogfish Head: On a shopping spree.

[00:19:43] Jessica Infante: Largest beer wholesaler in the US. And let's see, hopefully we're not getting any warning that, you know, news is coming in 15 minutes.

[00:19:52] Dogfish Head: We may be speaking it into existence, honestly.

[00:19:55] Jessica Infante: Yeah. As soon as this wraps up, I'm sure like there will be more news.

[00:19:59] Dogfish Head: No, we got to go hang out with Molson Coors and the dinosaurs at the museum.

[00:20:04] Jessica Infante: We do. Dinosaurs, museum, Constellation brands, all the above. So yeah, with that, we're going to take you right to our Brutalks conversation, and we're going to get it back out there on the trade show floor and out at the party scene. So we'll see you out there.

[00:20:23] Dogfish Head: I'm Justin Fonte, BrewBap Managing Editor. I am super psyched for our second conversation today as it's something I've been thinking a lot about lately. So we are going to dig in. IPAs accounted for 44.77% of craft beer dollar sales year to date through September 4th, according to market research firm, IRI. The style dwarfs all others by comparison. The next two largest craft styles are seasonals, which is 8.7% of craft beer dollars, and Belgian wits, 8.4%. And this is all off-premise data. So, you know, take that with a grain of salt. But, you know, more than half of this queue is an IRI's list of the top 30 craft brands, our IPAs. It's undeniable that IPs dominate craft beer, but can it stay that way and should it? So to break this down, we've got a panel of experts with diverse job titles and breweries who are here to talk it all out. So please join me in welcoming Mark Sefaric, Dogfish Head Brewmaster. Hey, Mark.

[00:21:19] Atrevida Beer: Hello.

[00:21:20] Dogfish Head: Thanks for being here. Kyle Ingram, Sierra Nevada Brand Director. What's up, Kyle?

[00:21:25] Sierra Nevada: Hey, how's it going?

[00:21:26] Dogfish Head: Good. How are you? We also have Jess Fierro, head brewer and owner of Atrevida Beer Company in Colorado Springs. Hello. Hi, Jess. And Mary Mills, three-tiered beverages consultant and Nielsen IQ alum. You guys got a great shout out on the last panel. That's right. Happy to be here. All right, let's jump in. Mark, Dogfish Head is built on a strong IPA portfolio, but five years ago, you guys found blockbuster success with SeaQuench. I've seen a lot of them in the room today. Totally unique beer, almost Defy style. What was the development of that beer like and what indicators did it show early on that it was going to be a hit?

[00:22:05] Atrevida Beer: Well, you know, it was prior to the introduction of SeaQuench, the average ABV of our portfolio was about 9%. And what we saw just sort of generally trending in our properties was a trend towards sort of lighter, more refreshing products. So that sort of steered us in the direction of SeaQuench. You know, we do incorporate three of the more refreshing styles of Berliner Weiss, a Gose and a Kolsch sort of all into one package there. It does have a somewhat of an acidity and the bright citrus of the of the lime really, I think, had sort of crossover appeal outside of beer, you know, with sort of your white wine drinkers, margarita drinkers, that sort of thing. And so we just saw it take off almost immediately that people that normally wouldn't drink beer on some occasions actually gravitated towards it because of those things.

[00:22:54] Dogfish Head: All that totally makes sense. Kyle, Sierra's Little Things family started out as a hazy vehicle, but diversified into having a sour and a citrus wheat beer. How and why did you decide to expand the platform beyond IPAs?

[00:23:07] Sierra Nevada: So Hazy Little Thing was just an absolute rocket ship, like right out of the gate. And I think you could attribute some of that to just right products, right time. First, or one of the first nationally distributed Hazys, also just a damn good beer. But as we learned more and we talked to drinkers, we found that it was really the approachability of the brand that brought them in. And that appealed to both craft drinkers as well as sort of the craft curious. So we took that insight and we used that to sort of build the foundation, the positioning for the Little Things family, which is all about fun, approachability, and inclusivity in terms of having something for everybody. That then gave us permission to go do a sour and then go do a citrus sweet. We have a little things lager coming out next year called crisp little things. So we're going to continue to expand. We're not walking away from hazy by any means or big little thing. We'll still have IPAs in the family, but we felt like it's important to maintain that approachability that the brand was built on. And I think that was the big learning for us is that, and I think for the industry at large is how do we make craft more approachable to bring more people in and grow the size of the pie?

[00:24:12] Dogfish Head: I love the brand, it's super fun. Those ads you guys are doing right now, the Halloween theme, What's Your Thing? Adorable.

[00:24:19] Sierra Nevada: I also want to give a shout out to the creator, the designer of the brand, who's in the room tonight. That's Connor McMahon.

[00:24:25] Dogfish Head: He's kind of a big deal.

[00:24:27] Sierra Nevada: Buy him a Dogfish Head if you see him.

[00:24:30] Dogfish Head: So Jess, most tap rooms where I live in New England have menu lists that are pretty much majority IPA, and I'm sure New England's not alone. But that is not the case at Atrevida. What styles sell best?

[00:24:42] Tier Beverages: So Atravida is really known for the fruited and spiced type beers. I do incorporate a lot of flavors into my beer. However, I feel like the biggest sell is relatability. The minute that you can connect with that customer, the minute whether they're a connoisseur, whether they're an enthusiast, a new person coming into the industry that doesn't really know about craft beer, that's really where the sell begins. Totally get that.

[00:25:09] Dogfish Head: Mary, IPA has led craft beer dollar sales forever. Do you see a time ever when that might not be the case or has the horse completely left the barn?

[00:25:18] Brew Talks: Yeah, good question. And I want to start real quick by just saying I'm the data nerd of the group. And so you'll hear a lot of numbers from me today. Everything I'm sourcing, three tier partners with Nielsen IQ. So I'm talking Nielsen data for point of sale data and CGA data for on premise. So just wanted to throw that out there. But yes, I think to answer your question, the horse has left the barn in some instance. I mean, as you said, over close to 50% of sales are IPA. I think what craft brewers have done really well, though, is that they've innovated within IPA. So, you know, the Sierra Nevada example, the Hazys, the Imperials, the double IPAs. So what's interesting is that traditional IPAs used to make up 75% of that IPA space, and that's now below 60%. So you have these other styles within IPA that are still driving growth.

[00:26:12] Dogfish Head: Now we've been asking if this is going to be the year of the lager annually for like six years now, and it never seems to happen despite the most fervent wishes of veteran beer geeks like me. But Kyle, you just dropped a little bit of knowledge about what's happening with the Little Things family. So we're going to go around down the line with all three of you guys about how lagers play in your respective portfolios. But Kyle, tell us a little bit about Crisp Little Thing first.

[00:26:38] Sierra Nevada: Yeah, Crisp Little Thing is exactly what it sounds like. It's an easy-drinking, approachable lager. You know, the approach on the little things, beers specifically, has been, you know, complex styles made approachable or simplified. A little hard to simplify a lager, but we also wanted to make sure that it was still approachable and that we weren't trying to go too traditional or too polarizing, which craft lagers, I think, can get to sometimes. So we're really excited about that beer as a compliment to the rest of the beers in our new party pack. But I want to talk about seasonals just for a sec. So we've had a hard time traditionally getting national year-round lagers to stick for a variety of reasons. We do have a pretty rich history in seasonal lagers. So like Summerfest and Oktoberfest and beers like that, that are really perfect for the moment or the occasion or just that time of year. Admittedly, we have sort of walked away from that in the last couple of years. I will be honest with you. It's a therapy session, right? We're in the nest, right?

[00:27:34] Dogfish Head: We're in the trust tree.

[00:27:35] Sierra Nevada: I am the person that stood in front of leadership a couple of years ago and said we should make our seasonals all IPAs because they were really struggling. Don't punch me. And it was the right thing to do at the time. We had good rationale and we actually saw a bump in sales, as you would expect, just given the size of the category. But we also heard it from drinkers pretty loudly and from trade press as well. There was a Pace magazine article that definitely hit home, called us out a little bit, rightfully so. And so we took a step back and just re-evaluated the role of lagers in the portfolio and realized that, you know, while Sierra Nevada is really built on hops and IPAs, it's still important to give the drinker that reprieve from just this constant onslaught of hoppy beers. So with that, I'm actually proud to share, I think for the first time, that we're bringing back Summerfest and Oktoberfest next year as our summer and fall seasonals, respectively. So super excited about that.

[00:28:25] Dogfish Head: You heard it here first The Brewbound Brew Talks.

[00:28:27] Sierra Nevada: I fucking love a scoop.

[00:28:31] Dogfish Head: Thank you, Kyle. Well, I hope you're not in trouble, as I hope I'm not in trouble, but I think the The Brewbound BevNET team is well accustomed to my profanity. So, Mark, you guys in the past, what, three plus-ish years now have a buddy who has a lager-rich portfolio in my former employer, Boston Beer slash Sam Adams. But how do lagers play for dogfish? Is this something you guys dabble in?

[00:28:59] Atrevida Beer: Yeah, most certainly. I mean, as a brewer, you know, I'm all about, you know, the year of the lager. I wish it was here.

[00:29:04] Dogfish Head: One day.

[00:29:05] Atrevida Beer: One day. We do actually do a Pilsner beer that's more regional and we do include it in variety packs. It's called Blue Hen Pilsner. The Blue Hen is the state bird of Delaware. So there's some local appeal there. We incorporate local malts into it. Our tasting rooms and tap room also we have lagers on all the time. If we based our portfolio on what our coworkers drink, it would be lager all the way because that's what everybody's shifty is. But I'm just as a brewer, I enjoy the, you know, the challenge of making lagers and having a partner like with Sam Adams to sort of up our lager game, I think is great. And I think you're probably might see some other loggers in the portfolio next year and perhaps a variety pack or something like that, but nothing, not a nationally distributed one at this point.

[00:29:51] Dogfish Head: Awesome. I mean, that makes so much sense for you guys. You're built on really interesting, creative ales, and we're going to get to that in a minute or two. But Jess, how do loggers play for you guys?

[00:30:00] Tier Beverages: So I enjoy as a brewer building the recipes for, and as Mark said, it is challenging actually to do a really well done lager. We do have Dolores Huerta, which is our Mexican lager. We were fortunate enough to win an award for it actually at Mile High, which was really cool. But for us, I mean, really at the end of the day, what it boils down to is drinkability. And my husband always says there's always, you know, everyone who writes a recipe as a brewer, it's about 10% recipe, 90% heart, right? And I take that really to every single recipe that I do. But lagers as a whole do really, really well. People love it. They're light, they're crisp, they're refreshing, all of those good things. And at Atravida, we do sell them really, really well, both the light and the dark.

[00:30:52] Dogfish Head: Awesome. That makes a ton of sense. You know, Mary, we know most of the growth in the beer category, at least in recent years, probably not really this one and maybe not the last one, has been driven by hard seltzers. In addition to that, Mexican imports are driving a lot of growth and so are hazy IPs of varying strengths. But where is their white space within core beer outside of those buckets?

[00:31:13] Brew Talks: Yeah, it's a good question. I do think we'll still see some growth from Beyond Beer. So even though seltzers are declining now, I think we're seeing growth in F&Bs, things like kombucha, hard teas. So I think we'll still see some growth there. But I think for core beer, an area I think a lot of people are kind of keeping their eye on, rightfully so, is the non-ALK space and low-ALK space. I think there's just still a lot of opportunity for growth there.

[00:31:38] Dogfish Head: Great audience question, and thank you so much for sending this in. And I'm going to pitch this to all of you guys. But Kyle, I'm going to start with you because I think it certainly applies to what you guys have going on. But this viewer wants your thoughts on line extensions. Is it important for line extensions to be for the same style of beer?

[00:31:56] Sierra Nevada: I think it really comes down to the drinker and who you're making it for and what are they looking for. So it's not exactly a line extension, but I'll talk about variety packs for a sec. I think there's two schools of thought or two different approaches for variety packs. One is an all IPA pack, for example, for that person that's going to put them in the fridge and drink them all because they just like IPAs. But then you've got something like the Little Things Party Pack, which has a diversity of styles because it's something you might bring to a social occasion. You want something for different palettes. So, I think there's something to be said for that variety, but it really depends on the drinker that you're targeting.

[00:32:27] Dogfish Head: Mark, what about for Dogfish Head you guys play in different platforms, how does that work?

[00:32:31] Atrevida Beer: Well, we don't tend to line extend other than the minute series, the continually hopped IPAs. So, it's kind of hard to do anything as a continually hop something that isn't an IPA. You never know. But, you know, we really haven't looked at line extensions. We're kind of sort of poking around the edges on that, maybe talking about is that a way to go as a variety pack or something in the future, but nothing right now.

[00:32:52] Dogfish Head: I feel like if there's anybody that can figure out a continually hopped beer that's not an IPA would be you and Sam. So report back. But Mark, let's stick with you. How has SeaQuent changed Dogfish's drinker base? And what about canned cocktails on the same turn? What are those doing for the Dogfish drinker family?

[00:33:08] Atrevida Beer: Well, I think it brought a lot, both products brought a lot more people into the drinking family of Dogfish products. I mean, I already spoke about SeaQuench attracting some wine drinkers and sort of the margarita type drinker. The canned cocktail space is pretty hot right now. We've got four really great products behind me there that are growing very rapidly. We were able to incorporate our DNA of using culinary ingredients in them, so they are sort of true to our DNA. And I think people respond to that. They are a true sort of over-the-bar type mixed cocktail that you might get at a local bar. And I think people are really responding to that in a big way. And we're going to continue to play in that space. We've been distilling for almost 20 years now. And we launched our first RTD as a pour over called Sonic Archaeology back in 2017. But the canned cocktails has just really become a rocket ship. And it is a crowded space when you go to any liquor store anymore. And we just do what we can to stand out by just kind of focusing on culinary ingredients and being really true to our DNA.

[00:34:13] Dogfish Head: So speaking of that DNA, I mean, Dogfish Head beers are usually creative and unexpected. Walk us through your brainstorming process.

[00:34:21] Atrevida Beer: Oh boy. Well, it's not just my brainstorming process. I mean, at the heart of our company is collaboration. So Sam is involved in every product we make. Brian Selders, who's sitting over there somewhere, who is our brewing manager at our pub in Rehoboth and our other properties, we all get involved in that process. It really, there is no sort of cut and dried way that we approach it. Somebody has a great idea, or we see an interesting ingredient, or read a great story, or see a technique on a cooking show. You know, continual hopping would be one of those things, for instance. You know, inspiration comes from everywhere. You know, we're all a bunch of foodies, so they tend to kind of come from that space. And, you know, really we just sort of riff off of each other's ideas. And that's, you know, so there is not really a cut and dried process. We do have an innovation brewery within the large brewery in Milton, and we also use the pub. to do, you know, to trial new ideas and test them with the public. We were able to use, we had a program called Beer Exploration Journal that allowed us to get real-time feedback from people drinking our products. It also had a backend on it that allowed us to sort of store everything by ingredients. So we could say, how many beers did we make with Kiwi? And how did they perform? And things like that. And we're actually expanding that program with a new platform rolling out to all the Boston beer locations in the year or so.

[00:35:43] Dogfish Head: That sounds like a ton of work, but hats off for sure. So Kyle, Sierra Nevada is building an innovation center. So it sounds like, you know, a lot of similar things that will be going on. That'll be in Chico for products that are outside of National Beer. The company is already pushing hard behind Hop Splash, which is a non-alcoholic hops sparkling water. How big of an opportunity do you see in sparkling hop water?

[00:36:07] Sierra Nevada: Yeah, I mean, first on the Innovation Center, it's really exciting selfishly for me and for the brewers just to have all these new toys to play with. As you can imagine, Ken Grossman does not go cheap on all the latest and greatest technology and so forth. So it's going to open up a lot of opportunities and we will innovate in beer there as well. It's not just for Beyond Beer products. I'll sort of harken back to a philosophy that our CEO, Jeff White, is trying to instill in the company and has been advocating is sort of a yes and strategy. And that is, yes, we're still going to innovate in beer. Yes, we're still going to make great craft beers. But the and part sort of opens up some interesting opportunities to kind of meet the drinker where they're at and where they're going, because nobody's really just drinking craft beer. I mean, Mary knows that from the data. it actually could be a kind of a small share if you look at the totality of everything that people are consuming and more and more that diversity, we want to be able to offer those things too. So it's going to give us that flexibility. Hopsplash is a good example of that. You know, we're not the first ones to get in that game. Constellation, Heineken have been there. I'm sure there's more to come. What we're excited about is that it represents an incremental opportunity. So we just recently had our national distributor meetings, both East and West, and Hopsplash was the number one most consumed product by distributors because they could drink it in the morning, They could drink it at lunch. They could drink it in the afternoon, in between beers that night. So from that standpoint, it really is incremental. It's not replacing a beer occasion for the most part. And also it's rooted in hops. And that's something that's really close to our heart.

[00:37:30] Dogfish Head: Yeah. Super, super close to your DNA. I totally get it. Where do you want to have that merchandise in stores?

[00:37:34] Sierra Nevada: In the N.A. beer set. You know, we've tested it in a few different locations and it performs exponentially better when it's in the N.A. beer set, probably because it's niche right now and that's sort of the consumer in the need state that we're going after. But, you know, once La Croix makes a hoppy water, then maybe that'll change.

[00:37:50] Dogfish Head: So Kyle mentioned how nobody just drinks craft beer and people drink all sorts of things. But, you know, Jess, you are, you've got the taproom, you see the drinkers right there. When people who aren't craft drinkers come into your taproom with their more beer-inclined friends, what do you notice them ordering?

[00:38:05] Tier Beverages: I actually noticed them looking at our menu and really just relating to the flavor profiles more than the style of or the variety of beer. So for example, I have a more complex American wheat called La Gran Senora. And then I have a true to style Mexican lager that's Dolores Huerta. And so then it just becomes a matter of really just dialogue, right? What do you drink? Are you more of a wine connoisseur? Do you drink Bud Light? You know, we see all these, or not all these, I should say, but you've seen the jokes, you've seen the tap rooms, you've seen the breweries that will have that water tap that says Bud Light, or it says Michelob, you know? And making a menu that's a little less intimidating and less ridiculing to someone means that you're gaining that person. With that one person, may come 20, may come 10, may come 30, we don't know. So the whole point really is to Be able to create that dialogue, create an experience with that person. And at the end of the day, really find out where their palate is and on your menu, how does that fit? And being able to diversify your menu to have a product that you can say, oh, you know what? La Gran Senora is exactly for you. You're a little bit of a wine drinker. You like the more red flavors. Okay, perfect. That's your beer. I'm more of a salsa person. I want something light. I want something clean. Cool. There's Dolores Huerta. I want something fun. Cool. There's Drunken Churro. You know, so it's really just about talking to that person. I have a lot of fun names. It's really, and really that's part of the sale, right? I mean, we have, my daughter just made a beer called Hop Girl Summer, you know? And so when you get your, you know, your so-called hipsters that come in and, you know, are looking at the menu, Nine times out of 10, they're going to order the Hot Girl Summer. If there's someone that wants something a little bit more fun or there's someone, I have a lot of folks from Texas that come in and, well, what do you know about Juneteenth? Well, let me tell you, you know, Juneteenth is one of my beers. I worked with the Black and Latino Leadership Coalition. They came in, they did a reading, I released the beer that was an ode to the Big Red Soda, which was their celebratory drink. So now people become invested. Now people really can relate to your menu, to your product. And not only that, but now in every single dollar, we know that there's buying power. And that's where that buying power comes into play. Awesome.

[00:40:35] Dogfish Head: I mean, I think I had this experience the end of the summer. I was out to dinner with my mom at the Jersey Shore, and I was eavesdropping on the people next to us. And I love listening to people when they're trying to figure out what to order. I'm a creep. Like, journalism is 80% just being a creep. And this man, who was probably my mom's age, looked like he could have been out of Central Casting from The Sopranos. And I can say this because he would fit right into my family. But he was like, I don't know, I want a beer, a nice beer, maybe one of these IPOs. And he just kept saying IPO over again. And when you think about like, Beer drinkers who don't quite have as much knowledge as we would like them to have, to them IPA is synonymous with craft beer. And maybe if they've had like something really bitter and really hoppy a few years ago and their palate wasn't ready for it, maybe it turned them off and maybe that's what's kind of kept them away. So Mary, how important is it for craft beer to diversify beyond IPAs?

[00:41:28] Brew Talks: Yeah, it's a great question. And I love what Jess was talking about, because I think that's just what embodies craft beer is the story behind it and, you know, the uniqueness to it. And I think that's what draws people into the craft beer category. And I think when we were talking about lagers and pilsners, you know, a lot of times I think craft brewers haven't gone down some of those paths because they can be done in other segments. And IPA, as you said, is synonymous with craft and people really, you know, think of it as the crafty craft. And I think that's kind of what sticks. But I think, you know, it really is a unique to every brewer in terms of if it's IPAs that they focus on or beyond that. And, you know, great examples of pivoting off of what your core was yesterday versus today. But I think, you know, what it comes down to is right now, as we all know, the shelf space is coveted and hard to come by. And so I think you have to really do what works for you and pay attention to what's turning on the shelf. And you know, don't mess up something good, you know, focus on what's working.

[00:42:37] Dogfish Head: That is excellent advice. Now, Mark and Kyle, you guys are long established, well known craft brands. Are there certain styles in your portfolios that you see as being entryway beers?

[00:42:49] Atrevida Beer: So Slightly Mighty is probably one that we launched and I. the time flies, probably six years ago. Low-calorie IPA, it's attractive to people that come from outside of craft. It's something they can relate to. The flavor profile is not as aggressive, because you can't really do that in a 4% ABV beer with 95 calories, but it does have a lot of tropical fruit impression and things like that. We talked about sequench, you know, bringing people in as well. We also make a white beer called Namaste that's got lemongrass and orange peel, you know, the spices, coriander, and you know, those are all beers that people can relate to. The flavor profile is interesting and delicious and they're refreshing and they're not palate saturating. And I think that's when you're looking at gateway drinkers coming into your brand, that's something that I think will scare people away is if something is just overly aggressive, it's easy for them to say, that's too much for me. And giving them something that's more akin to what they're accustomed to with perhaps a little bit more in the flavor profile is really the way to go.

[00:43:50] Dogfish Head: Kyle, how about it's here?

[00:43:51] Sierra Nevada: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned little things earlier. That's definitely a good, good example. But I want to talk about pale ales for a second, not just our pale ale, just pale ales in general. If you think about it, and I'll just use Sierra Nevada, you know, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it was Sierra Nevada pale ale, and a lot of cases that introduced people to craft beer. I would venture to say there's probably some folks in this room that, Mark included, that that was maybe their first beer. It was definitely my first craft beer and it kind of, you know, turned this love affair, you know, for craft. And so now pale ales have kind of gotten a little bit tired, you know, with all the IPAs coming out. And I think that's a style that we need to get back to because I think it can still have a similar impact that it did back in the day because of that balance between hops and malts and bitter and sweet. It can really exemplify all the great things that a craft beer can offer. So make more pale ales, please.

[00:44:41] Dogfish Head: No argument here. So, I mean, Mary, what does data tell us about frequent IPA buyers? How loyal are they to the style? Are there trends that you see in their basket rings?

[00:44:53] Brew Talks: Yeah, Kyle kind of referenced this earlier that, you know, it is hard to get strong loyalty in a space like this. So we see that IPA buyers are about 30% loyal and that's thinking about their National Beer purchases. So 30% of their dollars from beer are spent on IPAs. And that's actually really strong craft beer as a total is 40%. So, you know, they are loyal, you know, any other style is you're looking at 10% or below. So I think what that shows is that they're just, they are looking for variety. So it's, it's a strong, loyal base, but I think they, you know, are open to trying other things too.

[00:45:33] Dogfish Head: That tracks. Excellent audience question written so poetically. If IPA is synonymous with craft, is not lager synonymous with macro beer? Good question. And if so, how does craft ever really compete with non-craft drinkers in that space? Maybe this is why we've never seen the year of the lager. What do you guys think about that?

[00:45:54] Sierra Nevada: I'll start, the pricing is really tough to compete with, frankly, for a craft brewery, even a large craft brewery like ourselves, we just can't compete with the macros and also they do a really good job. They make very, very consistent beer at a high quality and they deliver on what that drinker's looking for. So I think the trick is how do we give them a reason or a point of difference to want to trade up and choose that craft lager versus their normal macro.

[00:46:20] Dogfish Head: So Mark, Dogfish Head a non-alcoholic beer last year, year before? Time means nothing to me.

[00:46:26] Atrevida Beer: I think it was two years ago.

[00:46:27] Dogfish Head: Two years ago. Okay, cool. NA beer has been a growth area, though it does have a smaller base, as Justin and Becca talked about in the last panel, but what did you learn from that launch?

[00:46:36] Atrevida Beer: Well, we learned obviously that it was a growth area and we learned a lot about making non-alcoholic beer. You know, and we made the decision to pull our product and really have the Sam Adams brand focused on sort of classic styles in that space that it played well with that. And so we could focus on canned cocktails and our beer portfolio. Really, we want to go deep into those and rather than being sort of an inch deep and a mile wide and, you know, we're a smallish brand. So it, that really made sense for us.

[00:47:06] Dogfish Head: Yeah, I totally get that. I love how you guys are able to, you know, swap ideas and styles back and forth and figure out what brand it makes sense for. I really think that's going to be what we'll see a lot more as people, you know, as breweries do start to team up and we see more platforms evolve. Kyle, how does Sierra view the NA beer opportunity?

[00:47:22] Sierra Nevada: I mean, it's definitely something we're working on. I mean, Hopslash is essentially an N.A. or our first sort of non-alcohol offering, which I think meets a similar consumer needs state. We've been working on N.A. beers for a long time before they were cool, but we just haven't been able to achieve one that was up to our standards or frankly up to Ken's standards from just the overall quality and flavor standpoint. So it's the one thing that we're just not gonna do until we feel like it's something we're really proud of. But the good news is it doesn't seem that the category is going anywhere. It's growing tremendously, but still small. And even craft NA within greater NA is still really small as well. So there's a ton of room for growth. And I look forward to more players getting in and really validating what a great NA craft beer can be.

[00:48:06] Dogfish Head: Jess, how does the spectrum of ABV play out in your taproom on your menu?

[00:48:11] Tier Beverages: We're a little bit on the higher side, so probably our lowest ABV beer aside from one of my, what was it called? Hopwafina, which was like a 4.5. You do have fun names. I have fun names. We're creative like that. But typically, the ABV range is going to be anywhere from about 6.7 to about 9. Oh, you are. Yeah.

[00:48:33] Dogfish Head: So we're up there. We're up there.

[00:48:35] Tier Beverages: Yeah.

[00:48:35] Dogfish Head: But I mean, like, that's like you have a point of view and you know who you are and what you do and what fits in in your portfolio. That's really what it's all about, I think.

[00:48:42] Tier Beverages: It is. It is. And it's hard, right, to keep the ABV down when you have a lot of additions and adjuncts and stuff like that. However, folks that come in, they do respond to that. And you'll have your newer folks to craft beer that come in and just they don't look at names. They're going to look at all ABVs, right? What's the highest ABV? That's what I want. And so the point is and the responsibility then comes to the server and or myself to educate that person and say, hey, that might be the highest ABV, but that might not be the flavor profile that you're looking for. Maybe we try something like this, you know, and so that way, you're also starting to kind of diversify their palette in that in that sense. But we are a little bit higher on the ABV scale.

[00:49:27] Dogfish Head: But I mean, that's I mean, those I'm Mary could tell us those are selling really well. But Mary, we know the the non out space has some pretty large players, obviously, athletic, Lagunitas, Brooklyn. Is there still room for anyone else to get in in a meaningful way?

[00:49:41] Brew Talks: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, as Kyle said, it's a big space. I think it's close to 400 million now and it's growing still at 20%, but it's less than 1% of the beer category. So I think, you know, it's still very small in the grand scheme of things. And I think there's a consumer need and desire for, you know, these more lifestyle, more health alternative things out there. So I think there's definitely opportunity for it. I think people are seeing, you know, one of you was talking about the drinking one in the morning or at lunchtime, you know, I think people are finding that there's more occasions than they ever realized to bring those in. And so I think that will continue to, you know, just become more familiar for people. And so there'll be more opportunity for sure.

[00:50:26] Dogfish Head: Fantastic. Great audience question. Somebody loves Modelo. So for as popular as Modelo seems to be, why aren't there more craft black lagers, especially from larger craft breweries? I have a hunch, and that's an extremely difficult style to make, but maybe you guys can shed some light on this.

[00:50:44] Atrevida Beer: A craft black lager? We do them at our pub in our tasting room often. I love a Czech dark lager. I mean, they're just amazing. You know, a lot of it is just really there's, I think, in that space, there's a very small group of people that enjoy that dark lager, and other people are still somewhat afraid of the dark, especially in that lager space. You know, they prefer that pale golden lager. And I mean, that... This country consumes a ton of that, and that's what people are really gravitating towards. So I will continue to do my dark Czech lager in the tasting room, life before memes. Stop by anytime in the winter and we will have it on tap for you. But right now, yeah, that's kind of where I see it is. The dark lager really suffers from what people that are afraid of dark beers. I think it's going to be like super big, roasty, but it's not.

[00:51:37] Dogfish Head: Huge bummer. Back in the day when Sam Adams used to make black lager, I used to use it to make French onion soup, and it was delicious. But perhaps a topic that we can discuss.

[00:51:47] Atrevida Beer: You may find some happiness in your future.

[00:51:51] Dogfish Head: Oh, oh, so much news here The Brewbound BrewTalks.

[00:51:56] Atrevida Beer: Perhaps... I didn't say what though.

[00:51:58] Dogfish Head: You didn't say what, but you know, I'm smarter than the average. No, I'm not. Yeah, maybe we can keep some of these little news tidbits going at The Brewbound Live next month. So if you guys are interested, it'll be November 29th and 30th. So we keep talking about the year of the logger and we live under the domination of IPAs. But I know that if I had my biggest wish come true of what is the next massive style, it's probably that, Czech dark loggers. But what about you guys? What would you love to see just like rise to prominence? And we'll wrap this up after this one because I know it's a fun one and nobody wants to go back to the hard questions after that.

[00:52:35] Sierra Nevada: So staying on the dark beer topic, I'd love to see lower ABV stouts become a thing again. You know, peanut butter stouts and all the different flavors, chocolate, vanilla, cocoa. I mean, there's so much you can do with a stout base, but oftentimes whether they're barrel aged or not, they start creeping up towards 10% and you can only drink so much of that. But I think something that's more crushable, a little bit lighter, but still has that flavor in that mouthfeel of a stout is really intriguing to me.

[00:53:02] Dogfish Head: Yeah, here for that, absolutely.

[00:53:04] Brew Talks: Yeah, I think just to tag on to that, you were talking about the slightly mighty, which I'm drinking right now, because if I were to drink an 8% beer while talking on this panel, it wouldn't go well. But I think that there is just more opportunity generally across styles for those, as we were talking about, with these different occasions that people are finding that might be useful to have something that's lower ABV. It'd be interesting to see, because to me, and You know, I don't think there's any big brewers here, but to me, when I discovered this, I'm like, why would I ever drink a Miller Lite again? You know, like, I mean, this is something that has much more flavor, but still has the lower ABV, the lower calories. So it'd be interesting to see how that can play in other styles.

[00:53:46] Atrevida Beer: I don't know that I would go with any one particular style. I just think that really just people, you know, exploring outside the IPA space, the hazy IPA space, you know, the classic saisons, you know, lagers, dark lagers, which I am a fan of. And I do love an Irish dry stout, you know, in that sort of Guinness vein. I just wish people would, you know, give an opportunity for brewers to explore those in their portfolio a little bit more and give them some love, because there is a broad diversity of beer styles out there. And, you know, IPA is the monster in the craft category right now. And I just would like to see some other styles get some love.

[00:54:28] Tier Beverages: Fantastic. Jess, we'll give you the last word, my friend. I'm kind of with Kyle here. I do. I'm a big stout and porter girl, but the white stouts, the whites, there's so much you can do and so many flavors that you can incorporate in a stout and have it so well balanced where it's still going to taste like a stout, like a beer at the end of the day. Right. And that's, that's really that, that happy medium that you want to reach. That's that sweet spot. So I'm, I'm a big proponent for, for stouts and white stouts and the variations that you can do with that. So fun.

[00:54:59] Sierra Nevada: Let's do a collab. I'm down.

[00:55:00] Tier Beverages: Let's do it.

[00:55:02] Dogfish Head: We are making magic happen here tonight. I am honored to be a part of this. Well, that is it. We're gonna let you guys in the room get back to beers and networking. Everybody at home, thank you so much for tuning in. As always, the biggest of thank yous to our presenting sponsor, Dogfish Head. Thank all of you for being here. Mark, Kyle, Mary, Jess, our supporting sponsors, the Reyes Beer Division, Crafted ERP, Ahead of the Curve, and the E-Premise Group. Thank you to all of you for taking some time before Beer Festival tonight, and hopefully I will see all of you for a beer later. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:55:38] Jessica Infante: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe. Thanks to Zoe and Jess for hanging out and going on this long, long, long road trip with me. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.