Brewbound Podcast: Four Corners Co-Founder on Independence From a Big Brewer

[00:00:00] Zoe Licata: Next on the Brewbound podcast, part two of our back to craft series. Hello, and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. I'm your host, Justin Kendall. I'm joined by my co host Zoe Licata. What's up, Zoe? Hello. You're gonna tell everybody what's on your mind? Yes, I'm not fully functioning because I'm still processing seeing the Jonas Brothers opening night at Yankee Stadium. For the 1% population that listens to this, to this podcast, basically my sister who's listening, it was an incredible concert. I'm still wearing my friendship bracelets, including a turntables bracelet. So if you know, you know. I don't know. This is all foreign to me. I heard Yankee Stadium and after that, you lost me. It was an incredible night of nostalgia and screaming and I don't know if I can ever experience that again. It was wonderful. As I've told you, the only thing I know about the Jonas Brothers is that Cookie Monster likes them, which is all I know. Well, they're coming to Boston today, so I'm keeping my eyes peeled. But lots of breweries doing some Jonas Brothers themed things for this tour, including this week, Night Shift's got some Jonas Brothers themed menus happening. So there's some beer Jonas Brothers crossover things happening. Yeah, I think that's smart. You know, we talk all the time on this podcast about getting consumers who don't typically think about craft beer into craft beer. And how do you do it? Maybe the Jonas Brothers. Some burning up wings. That's how you do it. Whatever that means. And, you know, we'll throw in some Taylor Swift and you've got something there, I think. Well, this week, our featured guest is George Esquivel. He is one of the co-founders of Four Corners Brewing Company in Texas. You might know them as one of the craft breweries that used to be under the banner of Constellation Brands, but that all changed this year. George and the co-founders and an investor have bought back the brewery. We're gonna talk all about it, so stay tuned for that. That's our plug for the conversation coming up and our plug for BrewTalks is it's coming up September 21st in Denver. We're going to kick off, unofficially, the Great American Beer Festival, and we've got a great lineup of speakers coming together to talk about the struggles and opportunities within draft beer. We've got Jason Murphy from Buffalo Wild Wings, Lori Scheffler from Tamron Consulting, and Sam Calagione from Dogfish Head. Our second panel is still in the works. We've got a pretty good deal. I think we're going to give you some appetizers or light bites. You get a couple of beers and some of the proceeds from the event go to the Colorado Brewers Guild. Yeah, we got the final numbers in for Boston Brew Talks that happened and ended up giving the Massachusetts Guild $2,500. So that is a big impact to a guild and all because of all you wonderful people who came and attended that Brew Talks event. So we want to keep doing it. Want to give as much of a benefit to the Colorado Guild. So get your tickets, come out and have some fun with us there. Couldn't have said it better. Let's get to some of the news of the week, and you can read many of these stories at brewbound.com, but you can also check them out in our new newsletter. Let's start with the Brewers Association's mid-year survey, because that's kind of the big thing that's on our mind, and one of the reasons that we're really thinking about draft beer for BrewTalks. Yeah, so we got the kind of mid-year check-in from Bart Watson at the BA. Before we dive into those, just a little caveat that these numbers aren't exactly accurate. I guess you could say they aren't as accurate as the annual end-of-year survey because there's a smaller pool. There could be some response bias in there. So just remember those things while we're going through these numbers. But one of the biggest takeaways from BART going through the survey was, yeah, draft is really not doing great. We're basically at the same place we were at the start of the pandemic. We're still 2 million barrels down from where we should have been if trends before the pandemic had continued. It's not looking great. And while all the other channels have seemed to at least recovered a little bit, draft beer is just not anywhere near where it should be. And that's a concern for, especially for craft, which makes up about like a third of the draft barrelage. So it's affecting a lot of craft breweries. and could have an even longer impact on just what infrastructure different bars and restaurants are going to have for draft moving forward, the amount of tap handles they have, what demand they're built up for. So there could be a kind of ripple effect that just is going to impact the complete future of draft beer. And if that demand does come back, that infrastructure may not be able to support it. You can bet we'll be talking about that at BrewTalks. So midway through 2023, the read that BART has from the mid-year survey is volume is down 2%, right? Yeah, so the production numbers that they got from responses, where is it down between two and 4%, putting that together with some of the other data that the BA has, Bart's estimating around down 2%, which is the first decline that he could remember from this survey. And one of the other points out of this that we sort of glossed over, there's not a lot to say about it, but at this point, in 2023, there are more craft breweries in operation than there were last year at this point. As of June 2023, there are 9,456 breweries in the U.S. I think the active number was 9,336, and that's up from 9,242 breweries in operation at some point in June of 2022. Yeah, so not only are we still dealing with all these trends within on and off premise, but there's even more competition than ever in those spaces. We know from BART's previous reports that the gap between openings and closings of breweries has been getting smaller and it seems to be continuing that way. But as of right now, it's still there are more breweries in operation. And on a, I'd say positive note at the brewery sales still growing. Yeah, the positive highlight of Bart's presentation was there's still that demand at breweries Four Corners to go and visit breweries. The number of consumers from that recent Harris poll that we went over a few weeks ago that said that they have gone to a brewery at least once in the past year increased 3% year over year. So there's still some demand there. People are still looking to have that at the brewery experience. So it's been benefiting breweries at a time when everything else is a little more complicated. And I guess we're having a bit of survey week or survey month at this point. Gallup released the results of its latest survey of Americans drinking habits and 62% of Americans said they drink alcoholic beverages and beer is still the top choice when they're going to drink. The Beer Institute likes to tap this one a lot to make sure everyone still knows, even if beer sales are declining, it's still the number one alcoholic beverage of choice for people. But liquor is gaining the amount, the percentage of consumers who said they were consuming liquor was the highest since, what year was that? I think it reached the highest point ever. I think it's the first time that, well, I don't know that it's the first time that it crossed the 30s, but it is what, 31%? Yeah, the highest year of popularity was this year. So beer's popularity is 37% of drinkers said they favored beer. And wine is down to 29%. And wine used to be sort of on par with beer, but it has been steadily chipped away at. I think this was the first year its favorability level fell under 30%. Which I guess it makes sense when you look at just the innovation landscape and the just shelf landscape. There's a lot of products out there Four Corners in the beer space, in the spirits space, with all these RTDs and keg cocktails and everything, and wine's fallen a little bit to the wayside. And we should point out that 62% is pretty much in line with historic consumption trends overall for Bebelk. And Lester Jones has, from the NBWA, has really beaten the drum on this repeatedly when we've seen outlets put out headlines that, oh, consumption was up during the pandemic and this and that, and Lester's like, hold up, no. It has stayed steady at about 2.5 gallons of pure ethanol per person annually. So no to, you know, sort of that cry. Yeah, and Bart Watson also tweeted out this poll today. Patted Gallup on the back a little bit saying he's criticized them in the past for pointing out the year-over-year changes of these poll results and commended them for actually pointing out, you know, this has been pretty consistent since the 90s. So there's a limit to how much alcohol people can drink. Yeah, and the profile, according to Gallup's poll of who is a drinker in 2023, they are middle-aged adults with higher incomes who are college educated and attend church less than once a week or basically not at all. I like how they ask about church attendance and tie that back to alcohol consumption. You know, it's a sin. Perfect. There's no better way of putting it, I guess. It is the sin business. Let's talk a little bit about the continuing changing of the guard in the craft brewing industry. And we have two stories up on Brewbound.com that really illustrate that right now. And the first, last week, the founders of Craft Beer Cellar, who own a pair of locations in the Belmont area of Boston, are putting those locations up for sale. And Kate Baker and Suzanne Chalot have been two of the biggest advocates for quality craft beer. Although they're trying to sell these locations, they're going to maintain the franchise. So they're not getting fully out, but it is a pretty notable change. Yeah, what stuck out to me was in this letter that Suzanne and Kate wrote, kind of just announcing the news and addressing what they're going to do next. They just pointed out that they're tired, that this has been a rough business. And that has been a message that I think we've heard a few times from several people who have just kind of gotten out of craft or reevaluating what their position in beer in general is. It really is just putting another stamp on that idea that craft is in this weird transition period right now and people are starting to reevaluate what that looks like and how they are going to be involved in it. We keep pointing out the number of top leadership positions that have been vacated or people in top leadership positions who are vacating major roles at major craft breweries, and they just keep coming. that it's really one of the underlying themes of 2023 that we've seen is that leadership change and that turnover and craft. It's been such a steady business. And one of those stories that is up now that we learned this week was Boston Beer chief sales officer John Geist is going to retire at the end of the year. And why is that notable? He's been at Boston Beer for 26 years. He's led sales for them for seven years. I think I graduated high school when he joined the company. No, the year after. He joined the year after I would have graduated high school. So he's been at the company as long as I've been out of high school. Yeah, it's a long time and it's something we've seen multiple times. Like we said, there are other people who are just getting out. I mean, with John Mallett, same thing. Bell's got out after 20 years this year. It's, I mean, it's understandable. That's a long time, but it's significant that there are so many people doing it at once. I'm glad that he's able to retire too. Yes. So we'll see what happens with these things next. I think it's also important to point out that for that craft beer seller story, Kate and Suzanne really emphasized the ideal buyer for their businesses. And they still really want someone who is super passionate about craft beer and wine and food. who's gonna continue their businesses with the same passion that they've had. So they seem like they still have some hope that there are still these craft beer loving people out there. It's just a question of who that next generation is going to be. And they're being very realistic about it too, that they may have to split these businesses and sell them to different people just because of the sheer cost that it takes to have those businesses. I do think that you're right though. I mean, it's really great to point out that they aren't going to just sell it to anybody. Yeah. They're being very intentional with whoever buys this. They're also being very personal with the sale itself. They're not going through a brokerage. They're going to stay on with the ownership for as long as they may need or up to a year to just oversee everything and help that transition happen. So they want to make sure that that culture still exists. It's going to be interesting here in the future to try and suss out who the leaders of craft are moving into the future. We talked a little bit about it last week that Tilray is positioning itself as shaping that next chapter of craft. But we've seen with some companies that have tried to get in, that have got in, that have acquired breweries, that it hasn't always ended well. Made by the water over the weekend or late last week and into this week have closed two locations in North Carolina, two Catawba brewing locations. And those sound like not great deals, to be honest with you, from what's coming out, from what some employees have said as far as how they were notified. They showed up to work and they didn't have jobs anymore. The doors were closed. There was a note on the door and they didn't receive severance pay. And that's not great. No, not at all. And it's something we've seen a good handful of times this year of breweries making the same decision. A good handful of them also owned by larger companies. So it's kind of this unknown spot we're in right now. Who is going to stand out as being able to really thrive in this space and be able to lead the category forward? Yeah. Well, let's play a game of Another Round or Tabbing Out. And our friends over at Ad Age did a Harris poll survey of their own for quarter two. And the top brand catching Generation Z's attention in that period. And this was all CPG, not just alcoholic beverages. And I believe this was the only alcoholic beverage that made the list and topped the list actually. And it was White Claw. Are you buying Another Round that Gen Z is getting back in tune with White Claw? No, I'm going to tab out on them getting back in tune with it. The reason why is I see White Claw. I think the people within Gen Z that White Claw really stuck to was this kind of the older demographic within Gen Z where White Claw was the drink when we were in college or becoming legal drinking age. And it took over pop culture. It was everything. You wanted your White Claw merch. You were saying phrases with White Claw, like just in conversations. Like if White Claw became something way bigger than the brand, and I feel like that still has staying power. People are still dressing up as White Claw for Halloween. Like it's still a part of just Gen Z internet culture, I guess. I don't know if you did this poll only with maybe the younger half, if that would resonate. Of course, they wouldn't be legal drinking age, but I don't know if it's going to stay through the rest of GMC. And I'm not sure that there's anything new that White Claw is doing to sustain that brand power. The new news for White Claw has been the vodka seltzers that they put out, vodka sodas, whatever you want to call them. And then this article references their work on live events to be, you know, at concerts and that sort of thing. Right. The brand has expanded beyond the product itself. And it is more about just like, White Claw as an idea. And it's definitely at like, you see just White Claw at like music festivals and things. There's that culture still exists. Could you get it at the Jonas Brothers concert? I don't think I saw White Claw. Although I'll be honest, I was more like at the beer stations. I did my friend did get the Jack Daniels lemonade RTD. Hmm. Country cocktails, I think. Yeah. The stuff they make with Pabst. Yes. But I wasn't seeing a lot of Jonas Brothers fans with White Claw. Also, High Noon has such a big, as we talked about before, just ownership of the spirits based seltzer category that I think that has, I mean, Post Malone is singing about High Noon in his songs now. So I don't know if White Claw can really compete with that. They didn't pay for that. That's the best free advertising. He was the Bud Light unofficial and then kind of official spokesperson for a while and then transitioned to High Noons because he wanted to be healthier and is now singing about them. So that's pretty great native advertising or whatever you want to call it, a free advertising. I smell collusion. I smell collusion here. I don't want to doubt the ability to buy Post Malone, but I think I smell collusion. I'm sure you could sneak some packages into his green robe and it might influence him a little bit. Well, apparently not Bud Light seltzers at this point. No, sorry, Bud Light. Well, let's go to Another Round or Tabbing Out. There was a recent profile of Athletic Brewing Company, NGQ. And one of the things that I learned from this that I did not know is it's being used as a chaser. Oh. So there is apparently a shot and a drink combo here with Athletic Brewing beers. One is called the wild buffalo. It's a shot of bourbon. You chase it with Athletics Run Wild non-alcoholic IPA. And then there's the hypocrite, which is a tequila shot chased with another athletic beer. And it wasn't specified, but I would say maybe the golden. Yeah, I could see that. So are you buying Another Round of using Athletic as a chaser? Sure, why not? I'm fascinated by this because I this was not something I expected. I hadn't heard of this yet. I really like the name the hypocrite, for one, the fact of taking a shot and then having non alcoholic beer. I think that's hilarious. I want to know who the hell started this. But what does that say about athletic just having infiltrated the just consumer space so much now that it's can be used for things like a chaser? I mean, props to them. I'm 45 years old. I hope I never take another shot in my life, to be honest with you. But I do love that people are finding ways to use Athletic Brewing these situations. I guess less is a little better for you than doing it with an alcoholic beverage. I might have to try the Hippocrite for my next occasion. Labor Day weekend, we're going to try some tequila with Upside Down and see what happens. I look forward to the full report on that. And one of the other things that I saw come out of this GQ article was Bill Shufelt had this quote where he said 75% of non-alcoholic beer drinkers were over age 45 when we started. That is flipped. 75% are under age 45 now. That's insane. When you put that quote up, that was so crazy to see. Is that your experience? Are you seeing more of your friends drinking athletic beers? I know you drink it. Yeah, no, I've been shocked a couple of times just this summer of seeing people who I would never expect to have gotten athletics or I'll bring some athletics to an event and they'll be like, oh, hey, you have athletic like I love athletic. And it's surprised me every time. So it's definitely become more popular with people my age. I think part of that is also just the expansion of where you can buy athletics now. Like you can get athletics at my grocery store now. So it's just in more places. It's in people's faces more. So they're more willing to try it out. All right, last one for this week. And this one caught me a little bit off guard because I thought we were already through IPA Day and we were through International Beer Day, but apparently August 17th, this Thursday, by the time this episode is up, it will be National Hazy IPA Day. I did not realize this. The folks at Sierra Nevada have informed us of this. Zoe, are you buying Another Round of beer holidays? No, I'm out on beer holidays. I mean, I can't even keep track of when they are to even be able to celebrate them. People make up holidays for everything nowadays. You can just pay to make a holiday. There's an outfit of the day day thanks to a certain reality star. So it's. I am. I'm OK. I don't need a national hazy IPA day. What about you? I think that we're overdoing it with the beer holidays at this point, because you can't keep track of it. You know, when's Amber Ale day and then there's non-alcoholic beer day and then there's golden ale day and then, you know, it's barley wine day. And I don't have the calendar space for this. I don't need people to have another excuse to send us PRs for whatever holiday it is. Oh no. With their, look, try these beers on national barrel age sour day. Don't clutter my inbox and don't give me another beer holiday. Yeah. I think we jumped the shark when we split IPA day and hazy IPA day. Does that mean there's also going to be a specific triple IPA day. Yes, of course. You got to have hazy imperial IPA day. No, I'm okay. Well, before we get to this week's featured interview, we should shout out the work that Garrett Marrero from Maui Brewing is doing in Maui, helping out, trying to raise money to rebuild at this point. And they have a collaboration beer that they've launched. that you should go to mauibrewing.com and check out and get involved in, if you can get involved, if you're in a position to help out, because that seems to be the way to help at this point. And really, Garrett has posted so many different stories showing the supply missions he's been running on his Instagram page. Really just commendable work. Yeah, I mean Garrett goes live on Instagram basically every day just updating people on both just the safety and current conditions of all of his staff and workforce and the tap rooms and things but also just the general public and the population of Hawaii and So he's really dedicated all his time to this and just trying to help people there. So whatever attention and support you can give to just the people of Hawaii who have been displaced, it's greatly appreciated. Yeah, it's called the Cocoa Project, I believe. And it's inspired by Sierra Nevada's Resilience Project that when those California wildfires hit, they sort of sprung into action and you can really see the work that Garrett's doing there. So yeah, go over to mauibrewingco.com and if you want to get involved, fantastic. But let's get to our featured interview now with George Esquivel from Four Corners Brewing. Back in May, we learned that the owners of Four Corners and Funky Buddha were reacquiring their craft breweries from Constellation Brands. A couple of months ago, we caught up with Ryan Sens from Funky Buddha. Today, we're joined by George Esquivel, one of the founders of Four Corners. Thanks for being here, George.

[00:27:24] Four Corners: It's a pleasure and an honor, and I'm grateful for the opportunity.

[00:27:29] Zoe Licata: How long was this deal to reacquire the brewery in the works? And when did you really know that it was going to be an option?

[00:27:38] Four Corners: That happened somewhere in December of 22. Yeah, we got word that Constellation Brands prepared to basically exit craft and specialty as had been in the past five years, even kind of further than that. But all that said is they gave us an advisory of it and began to think about, OK, then what is the exit for our brewery? And one of those options was to actually reacquire the brand and the assets.

[00:28:09] Zoe Licata: The beer business is in a very interesting spot right here and people are getting out of it or coming back into it. Why did you want to buy back the brewery? Why was this the best choice for you right now?

[00:28:22] Four Corners: Well that's a damn good question. We had to have a hard think about it. And you say interesting. But you know the beer business is essentially flat to down. Some shifts going on in the business craft specifically is down. And so those are facts. What we also know are facts is we have Athletic Brewing capabilities. We have a strong brand. And as we started to kind of socialize this and really, you know, give it, I think it's like the biggest key to this thing for us was going to be, will our people be behind this? You know, will our, will our employees, our people on the operation side, tap room and sales be on board? Yeah. We build this thing, they're the heart of the brand. And as we started to get head nods going, okay, this could be really cool, they gave us a lot of confidence to take this thing on. What really got us motivated back in 2010 to launch in 12 was bringing craft vibe to our city at that time. Back in 2010, I think there were two breweries operating in North Texas. And I could just look at, We were craft beer enthusiasts. We're homebrewers. And then we're like as a CPG marketer. I was thinking look we're a top five DMA. And why is it that we only have two breweries. And culturally we're missing out on something here. So really it was a cultural play for us that we could elevate craft beer culture in North Texas. And after a while it becomes a method by which we're expressing ourselves right through packaging through language through events through beer. And. You know, getting back to that got us really jazzed. So kind of a long winded way to tell you the motivators have never shifted for us. It's the ability to be agile as we need to be and move much more quickly on initiatives is going to be the driver for us going forward. And when you put us versus our craft peers and you look back in that last five years, it's just a much slower churn on the things we're able to crank out. What was the vibe like from your employees?

[00:30:42] Zoe Licata: Because these type of deals don't always have a happy ending, as we've seen this year, whether it's with Platform, where Anheuser-Busch shut down basically all operations and laid off the employees. And that sort of exists as essentially a ghost brand at this point, just three IPAs that are not contract produced, but are that are produced elsewhere. And, you know, they just exist in the market. Or you have a Magic Hat that, you know, is an iconic craft brand that exists sheerly by production at FIFCO's breweries in New York now. It no longer has that place in time. So, you know, this is essentially the best case option is, you know, the former owners reacquiring the brand. So what was the vibe like when they heard this and, you know, through the process?

[00:31:36] Four Corners: Yeah, I tell you, they were excited. It wasn't like, hmm, okay, maybe it was, yeah, let's F and do it, you know, let's, let's go for it. And man, that the pressure, the pressure about, I mean, that to me, that was the, that was a sticking point for me. It's like, man, can we, you know, is everyone going to stick around for this thing? And I always, you know, I'm the, I'm the sky is falling guy around here. It's like, you know, plan for the worst and hope for the best. And the best came true. Here's what I'm grateful for. I'm grateful. I am deeply grateful for the fact that we've had an employee base that has really stuck it out with us even prior to the acquisition. You know, the folks who are running the brewery packaging lines, the lab, they were our original delivery drivers and we were self-distributed. So they've grown up with us as, you know, as brewers, they've grown up, we've learned together. Some of the folks on the, uh, on the taproom side were salespeople. And so for a brewer, our size, there's a lot of churn and we've minimized that churn. And so with that is they're like, okay, let's get back to the, you know, the stuff that we really, really were doing extremely well that we're setting us apart prior to the, to the acquisition. We can get back to that. That'll be fun. Let's go do it.

[00:32:53] Zoe Licata: Part of what happens now that you have ownership is you now have more freedom in the decisions of where you want the company to go, your vision for the brand, how big you want it to be. What is that vision for Four Corners now and how might that be different from what Constellation Brands planning for it?

[00:33:13] Four Corners: Well the thought that we had in mind when we were going through the acquisition is that that we could be the best version of ourselves through this acquisition. We could and we could you know we could grow in many different ways faster. And if you look at it on paper, and if you think about how our brand is positioned versus where the market is in Texas and where it is in the Southwest, where you have bicultural Latinos that are the majority of the population, it would make it sensible to say, okay, wow, this brand could really draft off of this massive import business. And that was kind of the bet we were taking, but also really with the mindset of like, OK, we could elevate our brand. We could really reach new heights with it. So that was the thought going into it. And that didn't work for many reasons. They're focused on building the number one brand in America, which they're doing. So it makes sense. We always call this thing it's a journey. It's just we're on a journey and we're going to take some twists and turns. But the goal to be the best brewery we can express ourselves to that opportunity is still there. So we're going to continue to do that. We have to move a lot faster on what we're doing. We've got to you've got to innovate and not just innovate in beer. We have to really innovate. It's a different climate out there than it was 10 years ago. We've seen, you know, even in the past five years that we've been part of Constellation Brands, consumers have shifted dramatically. And we saw seltzers come in and go. We're seeing RTDs do their thing. We're seeing FMBs stand strong and grow stronger. And, you know, we haven't participated in that dialogue and meeting those need states, but we're starting within ourselves to do it.

[00:35:07] Zoe Licata: So what is kind of your focus area immediately with this? You said changing innovation, being faster and what else are you focused on for the next step for the brand?

[00:35:18] Four Corners: you know, we have to stabilize the brand. So stability is key, and that's going to get us poised for discussions on what's next. The brand just needs some energy quick. It needs some energy in some key places. We're going to put those in place in 24. You know, IPAs are still IPAs. We can still, you know, have a lot of innovation to go through IPA. And then with the shifting habits and stuff, you know, there's beer with some flavor that are light. 103 again here in Dallas, and we've got another 10 days of that. So it's just really getting ourselves in a better position from a product portfolio standpoint that is compelling to our distributors and our retailers and buyers. So that's the next order of business. And I think a big chunk of that is to have that dialogue ourselves, which we did not have. If you can imagine someone who's representing Constellation Brands has a list to tick down. And if you can just think about that volumetrically, you can figure out where we fell in that process. So we got to have a craft to craft discussion, very apples to apples discussion with our buyers. And I think it's going to be welcome news, honestly, with our approach, the energy that we're bringing to the brand and to craft.

[00:36:38] Zoe Licata: Were you ever disconnected from the brand through this process? Under the ownership of Constellation Brands you remain with the business?

[00:36:46] Four Corners: There were three original co-founders. There was me. I've always handled the sales and marketing side prior to Constellation Brands was with the brand through the five years. So I was still directing the marketing of Four Corners Brewing. Steve Porcari, who is a co-founder, ran the operation, and then Greg Leftwich, who is an original co-founder. He's a banker by trade, so he kept his banking gig. So yeah, we've been along the ride for the time.

[00:37:14] Zoe Licata: So when you're on that ride and you know, this is a brand that you've built with your partners and it's been something that's been very personal to you and then you make a strategic partnership like that and for whatever reason, you know, like you said, it didn't work and the market shifts and craft changes and then there's Seltzer and RTDs and priorities change. What's it like to go through that and try and sort of maintain the energy behind the brand when maybe the support isn't there.

[00:37:49] Four Corners: It's a challenge, but there's always been challenges. We've gone through, frankly, I don't know, bigger challenges before. We lost a brewer two weeks before we were supposed to start canning our first beer. That's like, we're going under, man. I'm not sure how we're going to get it done. But we moved, we pushed through it. We've been through episodes when we had to dump our first 30-barrel batch of beer, and we thought the world was going to end. The beer business brewing, call it that. Brewing is a figure it out endeavor. Whether you're brewing at home, whether you're a pro brewer, you've got to figure it out and work through challenges. what drove us is that, okay, there's still a vision out here that drives us. And, you know, once you give up on that, then call it a day. But through it, I just, I always felt that there's a, there's an outcome here that's going to be positive. We just, you have to be more patient than we're, you know, than we really, you know, than we're willing to be. But, you know, patience paid off. And I'm grateful that we had the opportunity to get this back. As you mentioned earlier, many don't. And so, yeah, it was a fantastic opportunity, but it really had to give us a little think on how we approach it and what we're going to, yeah, our mindset going into it. I thought you said you were the pessimist. Well, I am. Well, no, no, no. There's, yeah, I got one foot, yeah, one foot in the sky, one foot on Another Round, right?

[00:39:22] Zoe Licata: We talk about there being others out there and there are other folks that are in a similar position and they may likely have the opportunity at some point to reacquire their brand. So what do they need to know about going through this process and what are the challenges of doing so?

[00:39:42] Four Corners: Yeah, for us, we had to think about what's the driver here. We never, ever planned on an acquisition. We never, you know, I don't know how you plan for that. What keeps us driven is the opening of doors and the ability to express ourselves to it. This is a weird thing. It's a bit surreal. kind of, it's a cosmic thing, you know, with me, is, you know, we keep our North Star figured out. We spend a lot of time early and before we ever launch a brewery is kind of figuring out, okay, what do we, how does this thing look like? What does success look like? What does it feel like? And, you know, that's kind of our intent. And the more attention we put to it and the more focus we put on it, doors magically opened up. It's a weird, magical experience. If I wasn't doing this, I'd write a book about it. And I should probably write it anyway, but I'm pretty busy at the moment. But it's an amazing process, and that's what drives us. Everyone has their motivators. I've met many brewers that are motivated by the dollar. I've met many that are motivated by a bunch of different things. What motivates us is, like, we've got a story to tell. And we have an avenue to do it, and that's what keeps us driven. And if that's intact, you know, we said, okay, well, that's still an opportunity. And we got the tools to do it. And we have, you know, the capabilities to do it. We have brewing capability. We got a tap room that we can bring guests in and out. We can try out new stuff. We can have the dialogue right there. We're funded. you know, let's go. So the things fell in place for us, but was also in place was a mindset that we're not done yet, you know, and we could have been done, it was a choice to make, we made the choice, it was a choice to take it back. And for me, I was like, yeah, yeah, I was very, like, let's make a deal. It's like, man, I gotta see what's behind door number three. Yeah, there's probably something really cool back there.

[00:41:31] Zoe Licata: Smart, you gotta weigh all your options. Is there anything that you took away from the time that the company was under Constellation Brands you learned it could take forward with the company? Anything that you'd want to continue, maybe want to change differently than what was happening before?

[00:41:50] Four Corners: No, it's a, you know, look, Constellation Brands an amazing company. They treat their employees extremely well. They understand, like we understand, that those are the people that are making it happen. And, you know, we have that in common. Yeah, I'd say, look, you know, kind of the other piece of coming out of this thing is, like, we've all been to a, you know, quote, unquote, business school. See how a big operation runs, processes that are in place, conversations you need to have. planning cycles. We're much much smarter business people as a result. And that's a feather in our cap that many have never had that opportunity. We have some insight of how they built such an incredible company decisions to be made and best to be made. So we you know we have that really unique insight to to the market. So we come out of this thing a lot smarter. We come out of it with a lot of stronger capabilities. And so we've got to honor that. We've got to honor the journey that we've been on. We've got to take it and leverage it because it is very, very unique. It's been a unique opportunity. So through that journey, like many relationships, they just don't work out. It doesn't work for them. It doesn't work for us. It's okay. Let's move on. It's nice to have the opportunity to move on too. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It was their choice to make, you know, it was their brand to do with whatever they wanted to do with it. And they gave us that opportunity. And yeah, here we are.

[00:43:21] Zoe Licata: So as you look forward, what is the strategy? What are the focal points that you're, you're zeroing in on whether that's brand, market, channel, What are you going to be really zeroed in on going forward?

[00:43:37] Four Corners: Well, I think the market, I think we still have a very unique brand. I think we have a unique perspective on the audience we want to speak to and attract. Texas is a big market. There's plenty of room to play here in Texas. I've been out with distributors and retailers across the state. I was in McAllen, Texas last week down in the Texas Valley. If you haven't visited Texas Valley, you're missing out. So the people are fantastic. The food is great and they love beer. They love craft beer and a lot of enthusiasm for what we're doing. We can build off of that and just flex the muscle that we got. We've got strong capabilities. We've got dedicated people and we've got a lot of creativity. So we harness those three pillars that we got a good shot.

[00:44:28] Zoe Licata: We talked about the future of the brand and everything, but what are you just most enthusiastic about? It doesn't have to be necessarily strategy, but what specifically are you most excited about for this next chapter of Four Corners?

[00:44:43] Four Corners: be to get stuff done. I mean, it's four of us and whomever else we want to have in that room and we decide and we go. And that is so liberating. It's so incredibly liberating that we just, you know, okay, we, we decision made, we're going to support it. And yeah, let's put our energy towards it and make decisions ourselves. And I talk in terms of, you know, so what's, what's the path here? It's like, okay, we stay wise to business. energize the business into 24. Those conversations start now. Major retailers want to know what we're brewing next year, like this month. And for spring, it's insane. So we can make those decisions quickly and move on versus months and months and months of the layers that we were working through and get competitive again. And so I Competitive by nature, all of us are, and that's, it's, yeah, we're going to focus on the, on the muscle that we have and really flex it out. Sounds liberating. It's awesome, man. It really is. And the more we, you know, it's, it's two months into it now. June 1st was the crossover date, but as we have the conversations and again, start to kind of get those indie running legs back, I feel like, okay, man, this is, this is really great. I get. I wake up early, I'm energized by it. I wake up early because I'm energized, not because I have to. There's plenty of work to do, but it is energizing.

[00:46:08] Zoe Licata: And I'm guessing your wholesalers probably are excited too, that there is an energy and more of a focus on the brand.

[00:46:15] Four Corners: Yeah, yeah, that's part B of it was, okay, we were already linked with Constellations, their gold network, with a few exceptions of a couple of markets out there. We were aligned and kind of made the acquisition really easy from that standpoint. But talking with them, it's like, they're jazzed by it. Again, the worst case scenario is like, kick us to the curb, but that's, it wasn't even, never batted an eye around that. So yeah, another piece of confidence there that we can take forward. And, you know, it's a tough road. They understand it. We understand it. But we've got to bring something. You've got to bring some fresh energy to the proposition. And I think we've got plenty of that. Well, we're very excited for you and we'll be watching to see what you do next. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks. And yeah, shoot us some addresses. We'll send you some of our new spicy chela. It's a lime and jalapeno lager for the 103 degree heat that we're having here for the next 10 days and have had. So, I mean, it's just a, it's a fantastic beer. I'm working on some things into that vein there. So it's, it's working for us already. You're speaking Zoe's language.

[00:47:24] Zoe Licata: I know that's like right up my alley.

[00:47:26] Four Corners: Well, we'll send you a care pack from Texas.

[00:47:29] Zoe Licata: Beautiful.

[00:47:30] Four Corners: Thanks for doing this, George. Hey, thank you for the time. Thanks for the for the opportunity. And yeah, hope to hope to speak again soon. And but reach out whenever you like.

[00:47:41] Zoe Licata: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to George for joining us from Four Corners. Thanks to Zoe for all she does for this podcast. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.