Brewbound Podcast: Dogfish Head, Harpoon and Craft Beer Cellar Explore the 4th Category

[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: Dive into fourth category strategies next on the Brewbound podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I'm the editor of Brewbound and I'm joined by Jessica Infante, the managing editor of Brewbound. What is up, Jess?

[00:00:26] Zoe Licata: Not a whole lot. Not a whole lot. How are you?

[00:00:29] Jessica Infante: I'm doing all right. I just want to get you out of here and onto the beach as quickly as we can.

[00:00:34] Zoe Licata: I appreciate this. What an effort.

[00:00:38] Jessica Infante: Well, yeah, we'll make it a team effort because we're joined by the third person of our trio of brewboundians, Zoe Licata. What's up, Zoe?

[00:00:51] Dogfish Head: Hello. How's it going?

[00:00:53] Jessica Infante: Good, good to see you live from the Encore Casino.

[00:00:57] Dogfish Head: Yeah, I am not gambling today. But yeah, I am recording inside of one of the very nice hotel rooms at Encore in Everett, Massachusetts.

[00:01:06] Jessica Infante: Nice plug there. So

[00:01:09] Dogfish Head: No encore people, you can send the check to Yeah, yep. I would like my cut, please.

[00:01:15] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, this is going to be a Zoe heavy episode because this week's episode is a replay of a Brew Talks conversation that you hosted. I'll cede the floor to you to set it up.

[00:01:28] Dogfish Head: Yeah, so this is a replay of our second panel at BrewTalk that we had at the Sam Adams Tapper Room, featuring Dogfish Head, Sam Calagione, Mass Bay Brewing, Stan Canary, and Craft Beer sellers Suzanne Schalow. So we had a really cool conversation about, you know, fourth category, just existing in that space, trends that are happening in that space, both Dogfish Head and Bay Brewing, which has multiple brands, including Harpoon and Arctic Chill Heart Seltzer. They're all dabbling in this space and doing pretty well. So we talked a lot about what works, what doesn't work, things to look out for, things that might be on the horizon. It was a really fun time.

[00:02:12] Jessica Infante: This was a really interesting panel too, because you have three individuals who are very much into traditional Craft Beer, and they're still trying to figure out that fourth category puzzle piece. Anyway, speaking of Brew Talks, we got another one, our last one of 2022. We are coming to Denver for the Great American Beer Festival and we'll be there Thursday, October 6th. We'll be at Cervantes Masterpiece, as far as I know. Tickets are available now at Brewbound.com. And we're going to do this right before the first GABF session of the day. We're likely doing it in the noon hour. So we're going to get you out just in time to get back to where you need to be at the festival. So if you're in the beer business and you're looking for conversations and networking on that trip, come join us over there. With that, we will get to this week's news. And you two tackled the Brewers Association's Harris Poll Survey for 2022, which had a lot of insights in it. including a decline in the number of weekly craft drinkers. It's down about 4% to 46% of Craft Beer drinkers identify as weekly Craft Beer drinkers.

[00:03:22] Zoe Licata: Yeah, that was one of the things that stuck out to me the most. It was, you know, down from 50% last year and 4%, you know, Bart Watson, the BA Chief Economist point out, like this could be any number of things we could attribute this to. But to me, that seemed like a pretty remarkable decline in a short period of time. And those people are going to all sorts of different places, but 55% of the people who said they were drinking less Craft Beer said they're just drinking more of other things across all categories of beverage alcohol. So, you know, they're going to like domestic beer, import beer, spirits, wine, a bunch of things. So that's kind of where some people are going. There are, you know, 8% more women drinkers in the past five years than there were previously. So I think that's something that's interesting and a good thing. Zoe, what else did you take away from this?

[00:04:17] Dogfish Head: One interesting thing that Bart Watson pointed out during this presentation of the survey was that this idea of customizing your experience at taprooms and the importance of brand identity were like things that came up multiple times. He talked about how brand is steadily becoming more and more popular and people are going and choosing what they're buying over looking for a specific style of beer. And one way to take advantage of that, it's kind of crafting who you are and your brick and mortar options or facilities and the ways that you present your brand as very custom to who your target consumer is, catering to specific people so that you're not necessarily trying to just appeal to the masses in some like gray area, undefined sort of brand.

[00:05:05] Jessica Infante: That really stood out to me as well, is we are sort of in that era of the brand becoming sort of the major thing that somebody grips onto. You see it with Voodoo Ranger, you see it with the Little Things family, like these brand families that are sort of popping up or have popped up in recent years.

[00:05:28] Dogfish Head: because there are so many breweries now, it's like less people may have their styles that they like or whatever, but they really want to be supporting specific brands that they're really into. They want to support companies that might be doing specific things or representing specific things or just really into the look of a brand or something. And so that's just become increasingly more and more important and something that people need to start paying attention to or have already started taking advantage of.

[00:05:55] Zoe Licata: Yeah, more stuff that the poll found was important to drinkers is that the more frequently you consume Craft Beer, the more important how local it is to you. 45% of daily Craft Beer drinkers said it is very important that the beer that they drink comes from local breweries. But, you know, drinkers who drink Craft Beer several times a week, so still very frequently, but not quite daily, only 30% of them said the same about how important local is. So the more you drink, the more you care about how close the brewery is. Another thing that Bart called out was that mindful drinking, which is, you know, a phrase that Bart uses to avoid having to say, you know, like better for you or something like that. Like it's, you know, drinkers who are checking out beers that are maybe lower in calories or lower in alcohol or no alcohol, or they use organic ingredients, stuff like that. That's declined a little bit from last year, but the rate of consumers who say that this doesn't apply to them at all has dropped by 10% in the past two years. In 2022, 27% of people said that these questions about mindful attributes of beer doesn't apply to them. That's down from 37% in 2019. And it does seem to really kind of fall along age lines. You know, people who are more in like my demographic, like elder millennials, and then up to like younger gen Xers, they care a little bit more about, you know, organic ingredients and, you know, local ingredients, organic ingredients, and also low and no alcohol. Like that's really the sweet spot, people in this, you know, this age bucket of like 31 to 41. Interestingly, like older respondents, older than 50, like they didn't really care about beer and not having alcohol. And I think that's something that a lot of people are assuming like, oh, you know, older drinkers want, you know, lower ABVs or non-Alcs and, you know, they do have all the money in this society, but not really the case. They still want, you know, full flavor, full ABV beers.

[00:07:56] Dogfish Head: And Bart made sure to say that like anything that they talked about in Harris Poll, we should look again next year and see if it continues or if it's just kind of a one-off based on their survey group this year. So that drop in frequency of drinkers or like what specific age demographics in any of these categories may change in the next year or so. But so he's not saying anything is particularly a trend necessarily yet, but we should be on the lookout for following years.

[00:08:24] Zoe Licata: Yeah, another thing that I thought was super interesting here is the gap, we touched on this briefly at the top, but the gap between male drinkers and female drinkers is narrowing. But in the Harris Poll, which the BA commissions from the Harris Poll group, they found that 37% of female respondents said they drink Craft Beer several times a year. 62% of male respondents said the same, and the gap between them is getting smaller. But BART also pulled up data from a different poll, one conducted by Scarborough USA. And that poll, rather than saying, you know, asking people to think back, okay, how many times this year did you drink Craft Beer? They say, how many times have you had Craft Beer in the last 30 days? And the number of women who say that they've had Craft Beer in the last 30 days has remained pretty flat over the last decade. So Bart said, I'm going to quote him here, he says, what that says to me, putting it together is that craft is doing an okay job of getting women to try craft, but it's not doing as well on the job of getting women to stay in craft and make that part of the more regular consumption. I thought that was pretty interesting.

[00:09:29] Jessica Infante: Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because that was one of the things that really jumped off the page at me. That was the second thing, you know, the, brand growing more importance over style and recent trends and the bringing female drinkers in but not being able to sort of keep them in the fold. And that's, that's going to be so important for basically just building Craft Beer over the next decade and beyond.

[00:09:58] Dogfish Head: Yeah, and it's a good reminder that using multiple surveys or different areas of data to actually get a full picture of what's happening is much more helpful than just the headline. Oh, we more women are drinking Craft Beer. So I was very happy that Bart did that and kind of gave more context to it.

[00:10:18] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, moving to our next story, in my new home state or my old home state or somewhere in between, I wrote about Big Grove Brewery. They're in the Iowa City area, but they moved into the Des Moines area into a former car dealership. And they're in this massive space. And I went over, visited with them. They're pushing for 25,000 barrels this year. This base is huge. It's in a former car dealership, like I mentioned, and it's got this gigantic outdoor patio. They do really a good mix of having a restaurant area and the sort of outdoor beer gardening area, and they've got the games, and then they've got the taproom area. So it's just sort of like this very well done multifaceted facility. And yeah, I mean, they're doing a lot of, you know, hazy IPA, which shocking to everyone out there, I'm sure. But it's sort of this trend that we're seeing here in Iowa is several Craft Beer are moving into the Des Moines market from the eastern side of the state. And I think that that's just important for them as far as brand building.

[00:11:29] Zoe Licata: Yeah, what was really interesting to me about your story is that Big Grove doesn't sell outside Iowa, and that's 25,000 barrels. That's a lot of beer to, you know, not have gone out and conquered any foreign markets yet. So they're doing something right.

[00:11:44] Jessica Infante: Yeah, they are definitely following sort of the New Glarus model, except with, you know, hazies and IPAs and such in their core, I should say. Moving on, another thing that we're covering recently is Twisted Tea. Zoe, you've covered it extensively of late and the latest on them. It is the 11th largest selling brand in off-premise retailers over the last 13 weeks. Its sales are really accelerating over the last four weeks. They're really doing a hard push during the college football season, which just kicked off last weekend and will get into full swing this weekend. And some points that I sort of pulled out from a report from our friends at Cowan, Vivian, Azar had these Twisted Tea accounts for 38% of Boston Beer's revenues in Nielsen IQ track channels. That's compared to 44% for hard seltzer, which is down from a 60% peak in July 2021. So that tells you how important that brand is becoming to Boston Beer.

[00:12:50] Zoe Licata: wild. I was editing your story sitting, you know, I'm at my mom's house right now sitting at the kitchen island. And she was sitting next to me eating lunch. And I read that out loud to her and she kind of knows but doesn't really know stuff. And she was flummoxed by it.

[00:13:03] Dogfish Head: Well, it's just because Twisted Tea, it feels like it's been around for so long. And it's like, that was one of the first things that we were drinking when I was growing up. And like to see it suddenly having all this momentum as it older brand when the market seems to be dominated particularly by new brands, it's surprising. But it was like, I mean, we talked multiple times after Boston Beer's earnings calls of how it was like the only kind of bright spot for them so far this year. I think we referred to them as like the darling for them this year because it's just, doing so well and they still have so much space to grow, they're still expanding its distribution, they have so many markets they're not in yet fully, or if they don't have all their package sizes in these markets, so it still has a lot of space.

[00:13:54] Jessica Infante: Yeah, that package size growth is huge for them getting into the variety packs and the 12 packs. And you know, I'm looking at these two numbers and doing the simple math of 38% for Twisted Tea and 44% for Truly. And that's 82% of their off premise sales are coming from those two brands. And where's that lead beer?

[00:14:15] Zoe Licata: It's a great question.

[00:14:17] Jessica Infante: And I guess cider.

[00:14:19] Zoe Licata: And cider.

[00:14:19] Jessica Infante: Because it doesn't really break those out. But I think you've done the math before there, Jess, on that.

[00:14:25] Zoe Licata: Yeah, I landed on that same number that you just just said, 82. It's mind boggling to me for many reasons.

[00:14:34] Jessica Infante: Yeah. We don't have to belay over this. Your buddy Billy Grotto is in these new ads that they've got, you know, rolling around with his buddy Tank, which is a welcome edit to my story.

[00:14:46] Zoe Licata: you know, if we know the dog's name, the dog's name needs to be included. If you go on YouTube and look up Day One of these Twisted Tea spots, you'll see Billy, who is the ringleader of these Twisted Tea drops. Billy has worked at Boston Beer, I can confidently say over 20 years. I'm not sure what the exact number is, but you know, Billy like had a bunch of different sales jobs and then kind of landed on being the tea guy and he got his motorcycle license. So Twisted Tea used to have a lot of activations in the motorcycle community. They, I don't know if they still do, but they used to sponsor like the Sturgis Rally. So Billy got his license and would drive like the Twisted Tea custom motorcycle and trailer to all these places and Tank would go with them. So we had a buddy. And now Tank is sharing the spotlight in these commercials. He's a cute little Frenchie. He's adorable. I'm glad he's finally getting the attention he deserves. He really, he deserves it.

[00:15:38] Jessica Infante: Yes. And they have a Twisted Tea football helmet golf cart that they're driving around in this, which brings me back to my alma mater, Iowa State used to have this in the 1980s, the football helmet golf cart, which is pretty awesome. And I hope they bring back someday.

[00:15:58] Zoe Licata: It sounds like it's like a football themed Popemobile. Is that kind of accurate?

[00:16:03] Jessica Infante: It's like a football helmet, but on wheels, you know, it's kind of awesome. Yeah.

[00:16:08] Zoe Licata: Yeah. Like the pool mobile.

[00:16:09] Jessica Infante: Yeah. I should just buy one. You would be shocked to learn that some of my neighbors here have gators or like golf carts that they drive around the neighborhood.

[00:16:20] Zoe Licata: This does not shock me in the least. That sounds normal. You need to get one.

[00:16:25] Jessica Infante: It's not the, uh, what's the retirement community in Florida? The villages. Yes. It's not quite the villages, but you know, it could be, which is terrifying.

[00:16:36] Zoe Licata: There's actually like, I've noticed an uptick in golf cards as transport down here at the shore lately. They're taking over.

[00:16:44] Jessica Infante: Well, we're going to get you out of here and to the beach, but before we go, do you guys have big Labor Day plans and what will you be drinking?

[00:16:53] Dogfish Head: I'm not sure what is on the drinking list yet, but I mean, it's probably safe to assume there will be some high noons on there, but I want to get some beers in there. TBD on what those will be. But my friends are hosting a block party this weekend. They live on a dead end road, so they can just basically take over, have multiple cornhole games going. It's a Dartie, I mean. Not to bring it back to Darties, but that's what it's going to be. So I think that's the best way to really celebrate kind of the last big weekend of summer.

[00:17:26] Jessica Infante: The last gasp. How about you, Jess?

[00:17:29] Zoe Licata: So my neighbors down here at the Jersey Shore always throw, we have like a little neighborhood party that we call the end of the lagoon party because we all live at the end of this lagoon. It's been happening since 1994. I only know that because we had t-shirts made the first year that say first annual and obviously I was not the grammar nerd I am today and could not have helped correct anybody on that mistake. But yeah, so end of the legume will be Saturday night. I am grateful to have received a 12 pack of hard Mountain Dew, which is not sold in these parts. So I'm going to bring it to the party and be the most popular person there. But I also I my contribution to this parties, I usually make a dessert of some sort, but I also make jello shots. So I already had a request for this come in last month, the last time I was down here. So I ordered a multi-pack of Jell-O. I'm going to make a Jell-O shot platter that resembles the design on our new beach sweatshirts that looks like the sunset. Three colors with a giant sun, blue, yellow, orange. It'll be fun. Sunday night, we are having a giant pizza party at my house. A few of my friends have like outdoor pizza ovens. It's weird. This is what happens when you start to get old. You get really into like, making homemade pizza. So sounds awesome.

[00:18:44] Dogfish Head: I want my friends to get into that.

[00:18:47] Jessica Infante: I for one support any like, outdoor pizza making and our boss is a big outdoor pizza guy. So shout out to John Craven.

[00:18:57] Zoe Licata: Dude, you can't go wrong. I should probably go find some Italian pilsners for that, though.

[00:19:02] Jessica Infante: You definitely should. I think we know a brand or two. Maybe some Peronis.

[00:19:08] Zoe Licata: Maybe some peronis. Yeah. And then I was going to have everybody because everybody keeps doing like, what can I bring? And I'm like, just come hungry. But then I was like, oh, no, we should end this with s'mores. And our new thing has also been finding new creative ways to dress up a s'more. It started with because I use I use a Reese's cup instead of Hershey's chocolate, which is the only way. Excellent choice. Right. But then we realized you could do different things like you don't have to use a graham cracker like, you know, It's getting wild. Right? I recently discovered adding a pretzel to it. Stop it. Adds some like saltiness. All right. That's going to be my entry to the S'mores Creativity Contest. Yeah. There you go. Justin, what's going on in Iowa?

[00:19:51] Jessica Infante: In my hometown, there's a beer tent and I've been invited and I don't know that I can bring myself to go, but I might be there. I don't know.

[00:20:00] Zoe Licata: I think you need to go. I don't know that I can do it. Have you been invited as the guest of honor to the beer tent?

[00:20:06] Jessica Infante: Oh, God, no. God, no. I would hopefully fly so far under the radar, but I'm just an old now, you know, an ancient.

[00:20:16] Dogfish Head: I think you have to go just to be able to report back to us on what the vibe is of an Iowa beer tent.

[00:20:24] Jessica Infante: I already know the vibe and you don't need to know. Or I could tell you if they're selling hard Mountain Dew there, but I'm guessing they don't.

[00:20:33] Zoe Licata: I mean, you're in the land of hard Mountain Dew.

[00:20:36] Jessica Infante: I know if you need a hookup in the future. I know a guy.

[00:20:39] Zoe Licata: Excellent. I also received samples of the new high noon fall flavors. They're here. Wow.

[00:20:47] Jessica Infante: I didn't even know that we had that hookup.

[00:20:49] Zoe Licata: Yeah. So I don't always take people up on samples just because we don't review products. So I always like, you know, Yeah, feel bad. But like in the past week, everybody that's been like, Hey, we've got samples of this. I've been like, Yes, thank you.

[00:21:05] Jessica Infante: As you should.

[00:21:05] Zoe Licata: Yeah.

[00:21:06] Jessica Infante: Well, I'm glad they're going to you and not the people who rent the house that I used to live in. So by the way, if you need an updated address from me, hit me up.

[00:21:17] Dogfish Head: I feel like we're gonna see some Twitter thread or someone's gonna be like, I moved into this new place and we just get free beer all the time and I don't know where it's coming from.

[00:21:27] Jessica Infante: I know.

[00:21:28] Zoe Licata: I hope that's happening.

[00:21:29] Jessica Infante: My old landlord told me that she didn't think that there were any complaints about the free beer, but I'm trying to put a stop to that as much as I can. All right. Well, that's enough of us. Let's get to our Brutalks replay of the fourth category conversation with Sam Calagione, Stan Canary, and Suzanne Schalow.

[00:21:53] Dogfish Head: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Brew Talks sponsored by Dogfish Head. Getting ready for our final panel here. I am Zoe Licata, Brewbound reporter, our unofficial Gen Z correspondent and the only one on our editorial team that is born and raised Massachusetts. So shout out to Massachusetts.

[00:22:14] SPEAKER_??: MS.

[00:22:14] Dogfish Head: Yes. So we're going to kick off our final conversation, which is about something that's on many Craft Beer minds right now, the fourth category. All things F&B, hard seltzers, RTDs, all that fun stuff. I want to shout out again, Jessica Infante, who unfortunately couldn't be on stage with us, but she helped a lot with this panel. So we miss you, Jess. And shout out to our sponsors, of course, Dogfish Head, our presenting sponsor, as well as a big thanks to Reyes Beer Division, Perkin Elmer, and Hop Haze and Brew One by the Barth Haas Group. All right, let's jump into fourth category. And our panelists today, we have Dogfish Head co-founder and Northview Mount Hermann alum, along with me. Go Hoggers. Go Hoggers. Sam Calagione. Welcome, Sam. We have Craft Beer Cellar co-founder and CEO, Suzanne Schalow. And Mass Bay Brewing co-founder and CEO, Stan Canary. Welcome, guys. All right, so let's start things off. I mean, a big topic in the fourth category is RTDs. Those have been available across all categories, beer, wine, spirits. Still trying to figure out what that definition is. But in the last week ending July 17th, according to IRI, they had $215.3 million in off-premise sales, an increase of nearly 3% year over year. I want to hear from both you, Sam, and from you, Dan. You guys are playing within this whole category space. Can you tell us about what offerings you have and why you're participating in this fourth category? We'll start with you, Sam.

[00:24:02] Sam Calagione: Thank you, Zoe. And first, I do want to say it's awesome to be back in a real room with real beverage lovers. Doesn't this feel good to be all together, guys? Thank you to Travis and the team here for hosting us. I also want to say, besides my thanks, to Brewbound, this long relationship that we have. The first time I ever had beer in a brew pub, I was on Semester Abroad in Australia at a place called Pump Works in Sydney. And I had it with a kid who was going to Tufts at the time. And he had a harpoon hat on in, like, 87. And I was like, we're in a brew pub. There's a brewery in Boston. And it definitely informed my journey. So that was like 2 3rds of my life ago. And then I remember trying to sell you beer in Cambridge 1 3rd of my life ago. So this is really meaningful for me to be on this panel with you guys. And so in terms of the fourth category, so when Dogfish opened our brewery in 95, we were the smallest commercial brewery in the country, brewing 12-gallon batches on converted kegs in a corner of our restaurant, but intentionally in the corner of a restaurant with a kitchen, because we wanted to be really the first brewery. committed, like the business plan said, the majority of our beers will be brewed with culinary ingredients. And right out of the gates, we were doing beer-wine hybrids, like Raisin Detra, beer-mead hybrids, like Midas Touch. And then four or five years after we opened, in a scrapyard, I found a piece of stainless steel that looked like it could be a pot still. And we bought it. We welded a steam jacket on it, welded two kegs vertically, and made it into a condensing column. And away we went and started making you know, gins, rums, vodkas, brandies, 20 years ago. So for us, the canned cocktail journey really started then, because we started making cocktails in our own restaurants over 20 years ago. Our portfolio is Full Proof Spirits. We just got a 92 from Whiskey Advocate for our Let's Get Lost Whiskey, gins, rums, vodka. We do ready-to-pour cocktails, so like 20-ish ABV, 750 ml still spirits like Sonic. that are like pre-prohibition cocktails that you pour over ice. And then two or three years ago, we started our journey with canned cocktails. So that's kind of our lineup in the fourth category space.

[00:26:17] Dogfish Head: Dan, what are Mass Bay Brewing's brands doing in the fourth category?

[00:26:20] Mass Bay: Well, I just want to say how happy I am to be here. And I don't know, Sam, how's your high school got a shout out as part of your introduction? Are you like class agent, or what's the deal with that?

[00:26:29] Dogfish Head: My wife's the chair of the board. There's a big deal on NMH campus.

[00:26:33] Mass Bay: There you go. Well, this is about the Woosox. I'm a Worcester guy, so what? Sam, we're just glad to have you here in Massachusetts. We love that you're here a lot in Mass. It's great to be here. Thank you to Brewing and Suzanne. Wonderful to be with you. We've been partnering with you for a very long time, which we appreciate. You know, I think for Harpoon or Mass Bay Brewing, a lot of what we do has always been based on relationships. Maybe it's because we're an employee-owned company, but getting into the fourth realm, if you will, started with our partnership with Polar. Another great with Polar Park, the Woosocks. I've known the Crowley family forever. They make incredible seltzer. So we decided to partner with them to get into the hard seltzer category. And then over the years, we became very friendly with the Whistlepig Whiskey folks up in Shoreham, Vermont. and had a lot of fun making barrel-aged beers with them, the Bock Hog, and other products that I just personally love. So started talking to Jeff Kozak and his team at Whistlepig about getting into the RTD world with a product that we could make together with them. And then most recently, again, partnerships. It's with our friends out at FXMAT, the Saranac and Flying Dog folks. We've known the MAT family for well over 30 years. 140-year-old company like the Crowley's out at Polar. And we're doing a vodka whips product with the Mets and the Flying Dog folks. So that's just new in the last month and so far doing very well in the marketplace. So again, with us it's about product and making sure the liquid is something we're very, very proud of and we feel is somewhat unique to the market. And then it's about relationships.

[00:28:08] Dogfish Head: Suzanne, you started carrying fourth category products at Craft Beer Cellar. What has that reception been like for your crafty shoppers?

[00:28:17] Stan Canary: Thank you, Zoe. That's a great question. I still don't really know anything. And I know you all want to know what the answers are for the future, but I don't really have them. If you'd have told me 10 years ago or 12 years ago, the flagship store is about to be 12, so that's how long we've been selling beer in a takeaway manner, that we were going to be looking at all of these you know, canned cocktails and F&Bs and hard seltzers and that they were going to be in all of our stores. I mean, I just wouldn't have believed it. I would have told you to pound sand. I mean, it just, there was no existence for it. I mean, there were some things on the market 10 years ago, but it would have never been in a Craft Beer cellar. As we say often, beer is our middle name. It's changing, and it's changing, and it's growing. This is a percentage of sales, and we're seeing it across. Some of our stores have full licenses, so they are selling Sam's can cocktails. And we're seeing growth in all of those categories. I mean, we started, and we're looking at a half of a percent in sales month over month, or quarter over quarter, and now we're seeing those categories up in the three to four percent of sales. Yeah, it's an interesting space. It sure is.

[00:29:34] Dogfish Head: Now, Harpoon and Dogfish Head, both are beers that are seen as like pioneers within the Craft Beer space. Dan and Sam, when you made the decision to get into fourth category, what did you do to make sure that you were still keeping that craft DNA within your brands? Sam, do you want to start there? Or Dan?

[00:29:53] Mass Bay: You know, great question. It has to be consistent with who we are and our values and how we approach the market. And so it was all about the people involved in the project. You know, with the Polar hard seltzer, with Arctic Chill, it was getting together in the room with that incredible team out in Worcester and going through a lot of different flavors and figuring out how we could make a great hard seltzer that would speak to people here in New England, that we could make together with them. And the partnership with Polar has been remarkable for us because we've learned an awful lot from them. Again, 150 year old company in that category that has survived fighting against a lot bigger businesses. You know, they're been battling Coke and Pepsi and multi-billion dollar companies for decades. And we kind of feel like we're in the same situation as a Craft Beer, right? We're battling multi-billion dollar companies all the time. So we've got to be creative. Again, it gets back to those relationships. Fortunately, consumers today seem to like a story. They like to know that a product is authentic, that when they check on it, it's like, OK, these are the people who I thought made this product. They're actually the ones who make it. And they actually make it where I think they make it, and they make it how I think they make it. So that story has got to check out. And for us, I think, again, with the Whistlepig, same deal, going up to the farm. And if you haven't been to Whistlepig Farm up in Shoreham, Vermont, try to get that invitation, because that's a fun place to visit. You know, working with their distillers on different products, we did that. We had meetings in Shoreham, Windsor, our brewery in Windsor, Vermont, as well as down here in Boston, and just experimenting with a lot of different liquid, coming up with something we thought was unique to the marketplace. And the last project, if those in the industry who know Fred Matt, If you know Fred Matt, when Fred gives you a call and has one of his flights of fancy on the phone, you're like, okay, Freddy, what is this all about? But Fred said, we want to make some vodka drinks. And it's like, we want to do this with people we like to work with. And so it was a handshake agreement getting together with the brought the flying dog folks in who we didn't know that well, but Fred knows well. And let's work over, you know, about 60 or 90 Day One some great liquid and come up with something we're proud to sell. And we're selling in New England and our partners are selling it down the East Coast. So again, it was with each one, again, because we have partnerships and collaborations, it was a unique approach to the marketplace. But I think as Suzanne says, We don't have any idea how this is going to shake out. This is changing week by week at this stage, right? So we're trying to make products that we're proud of with people we like to work with and hopefully they'll find their place in the market.

[00:32:35] Sam Calagione: And for us, how do we keep the attachment to the OG craft DNA? So for us, it's pretty organic because the same facilities that we're taking our grain in in silos for our beer are the same facilities that we're brewing, mashing, washing our spirits. And that's been the same for over 20 years that we've been making these gins, rums, vodkas, brandies using the same piping system as our beer. So it's all been connected for over 20 years. And really, I think one of the things that we're proudest of is that it's not just been connected from the production side, but right when we started making our cocktails 20 years ago, it was in our own facilities, and we always had a very robust but informal focus group thing, what we now call Drink Lab, where we literally talk to the customers, write down their impressions of our cocktails, our beers, et cetera. And then the next time they come and visit us, they can see that we listen to them. We tweak the balsamic vinegar back in the vodka soda. We put forward the basil in the gin crush. So it's really been like a really organic journey since the brewing and distilling happens under the same roofs. And that's been a big point of differentiation for us, because it's amazing to see how quick the spirits-based RTD Space is gaining traction and to be able to say we've been you know perfecting these recipes for over 20 years Really helps us tell the story to our you know distributors retailers and customers But then putting like our biggest marketing investing I think is is sending them out to blind Competitions and like last week. We just got eight medals in New Orleans. We won best of show in LA so I don't think that would have happened if we weren't working on the recipes for 20 years. And because we've been working on those recipes under the same roots as the beers we've been making for 27 years, that really helps with that DNA authenticity.

[00:34:39] Dogfish Head: Something that's a big characteristic about this segment is that success can be hard to measure, and it can be very fleeting. So Suzanne Schalow long are you giving a new product within that category before you're removing it from shelves and coolers?

[00:34:54] Stan Canary: Again, another great question. And it's a quick-moving category, too, where things are coming and going all the time. But I hear both of these guys talking about authenticity, and that's ultimately, I think, what a retailer will tell you that they're looking for. We're looking for good products. I would say a couple of months, you know, a couple of three months. You know when something has pulled through. And if it's going to pull through, it's going to be reordered and restocked. And then it goes from having, you know, one shelf to two to five to cooler space and so on and so forth. I mean, it's a little bit different depending, but we try to treat products at our stores like we treated beer on Day One. And we're embracing the things that are coming at us. And we're trying to carry forward that craft sort of curated. selection of beverages, you know, whatever they are. We're learning every day, trying to learn about CBD products. And I think I said earlier, we talked to these guys. We officially have a kombucha seltzer hybrid on the shelf. And that's just crazy. Like, you know, and it's there because the liquid is good. I don't know how deeply we can believe in it, but we can embrace it if the liquid's good.

[00:36:07] Dogfish Head: From the perspective of someone who's making these products for you, Sam and Dan, how long are you giving one of these innovations to take hold in the market before you decide if it's successful or not?

[00:36:18] Mass Bay: You know, Sam and I, we live in the three-tier system world, right? And so nothing happens as fast as you'd like or as uniform as you'd like for us anyway. So you're trying to roll out a new product and you think it's been out for two weeks and they say, well, this wholesaler just ordered it. So I would say for us, it's more six to 12 months. You know, we're looking, if we get into Suzanne's store and it's not doing anything in two months, that's meaningful information to us. But kind of given the entire territory, I'd say it's more, and especially with the seasonality of some of these products, typically like a six to 12 months.

[00:36:51] Sam Calagione: And I think the explosion, like, let's face it, for thousands of years globally, there have been three categories of alcohol that people are like, oh, yeah, those are the three categories of alcohol. And now this fourth category within five years is taking a ton of oxygen. So it's so new and so dynamic. So I feel like it accelerates the time when you're doing launches to such an extent that even having the patience to wait like a seasonal cycle. And so an example for our company, BBC, would be, you know, A great example of patience would be something like Twisted Tea, which we're like bumping along for decades. And now it's the growth engine in the fourth category for our company, number one F&B and still gaining share. And I contrast that to like when we launch cocktails in our own properties, our Whiskey Sour was one of our best selling liquids in the off season, in the cold months. We're like, oh, fuck, everyone loves that. Let's launch that. And then you see just how seasonal Spirits RTD, like if you look at the curve of when it sells, and so we quickly, you know, self-regulated, went to our distribs and said, let's focus on Bar Cart, our variety pack, which shouts to Kate Rogers and the New England team's now the best-selling, you know, Spirits VP in New England. We kind of switched out the whiskey for that, or even our Bevy example, where we came out, we knew we had a liquid that we loved, but like we came out with Bevy in like November, got it everywhere, but no sampling, during COVID, a totally new liquid on a drink that was meant to drink on a hot summer day. And that's on us. And having, as suppliers, the humility to go to your distributors before they go to you or go to your retailers before they go to you and say, you know what, we're going to pull that one back, but here's something we really believe in, is really what, you know, gives oxygen to the relationships where it builds trust within the three-tier system that we were beholden to.

[00:38:43] Dogfish Head: We have an audience question that I'm going to reword a little bit, but they asked, can you name something in the fourth category? They said a specific product, but if you just have characteristics about a fourth category product that can carry both authenticity and significant market share, how do you create that balance? Anyone has any input?

[00:39:01] Sam Calagione: I want Suzanne to answer first as the gatekeeper between us and the customers.

[00:39:06] Stan Canary: I've been impressed by canned cocktails. This has been an aspect of the fourth category that's really gotten my attention. At first look, I wasn't sure. But as we started to sample them, and they're good. They're impressive. They're easy. And this is sort of a silver lining of, I mean, the bigger push is a silver lining of COVID and the pandemic where these producers had to get creative, right? To be able to push these products out and to continue to make products that could be sold in retail operations. I mean, we're carrying some of Sam's stuff and it's fresh products. It's, you know, the blueberry. It's awesome packaging. all the way around, you know, consumer gets it right away. You know, it's something that they want to be part of and something they can get behind and support.

[00:39:58] Dogfish Head: Whoever has the best input on this, maybe all around, you guys can give a comment on this, but how important is having fourth category offerings to actually bringing in new consumers?

[00:40:09] Mass Bay: The easy answer, increasingly important. I mean, clearly people are incredibly promiscuous in their drinking. They're drinking across every category. Sam said, We grew up in this world where it was like the three, you know, spirits, wine, and beer, and everyone kind of knew their lane, and now those lanes are being obliterated. And that's not a bad thing. The market determines, you know, what we need to do, and the flavor profiles of some of these beverages are outstanding. Like, shame on us for not doing it sooner. You were doing it 20 years ago. So I think it's kind of a wonderful thing, and it allows us to be even more creative across a lot of different categories, which is kind of what we got into the business for. Nothing to add to that.

[00:40:52] Dogfish Head: Sam, we'll talk a little bit about specifically your bar cart variety pack. I mean, the last time we checked, it was the largest variety pack in ready drink cocktails and measured off premise channels. What is it specifically about that pack that you see is the key to having that fast growth?

[00:41:09] Sam Calagione: Yeah, and this has been a learning. I think one of the pros and cons of what we try to do at Dogfish Head we were like, OK, we have these amazing pioneers that came before us, Harpoon, Sam Adams, Sierra, that have just nailed these traditional styles or brought continental styles and made them really vibrant, like you guys did with IPA or Sam Adams did with lager. So we're not going to win if we try to. We're tiny. I was 24 years old with a 12-gallon brewery. So where could we win is we try to do these really ingredient-rich, culinary-infused recipes from Day One. And then we open our distillery. Like, maybe we can play with that space, where even the lanes of vodka, gin, rum are even more militantly defined. But what's interesting, I think, is why we're gaining traction with our canned cocktails, is while there's 20 years of DNA in the recipes, and there's these background ingredients that aren't listed on label. So like our vodka soda, the blueberry you mentioned, there's balsamic vinegar in that. In the gin crush, there's basil. But we intentionally didn't really put them on label. We talked to our distributors and retailers and even our social media customers about it. But label-wise, we wanted to make it more approachable. So there's usually just two call-outs to recognizable culinary ingredients on that. And we try to not overcomplicate the proposition, including the ABV proposition. Like a lot of our competitors, Cutwater deserves mad props for doing what they're doing. as does High Noon, but finding our white space compared to those two, like High Noon is clearly a seltzer, you know, proposition from the white can to the calories. Cup Water's like all over the map. God bless them with creativity, with ABV and ingredients, whereas we're like, let's focus on coloring ingredients. That's where I'll bring our distinction, but let's make the proposition easy, all of them, two foolproof shots per can, all of them, you know, real culinary ingredients, and then getting in the bar cart and getting the learnings quick, like, you know, my sister's in the in the biz on on an e commerce platform and getting the learnings of how people are like, Oh my god, I fucking thought I hated gin. I threw up seven times when I was in high school and stole my parents gin, but then they try it in the bar cart because they took a risk on a package that had, you know, different liquids in it. It has been a great sampling opportunity. So keeping our proposition relatively simple in this moment where that category looks just like packaging confetti has been a factor in our growth.

[00:43:34] Stan Canary: I was just going to add that I think this mix pack, I think this is something that we really learned from Craft Beer. And it translates, right? I think Craft Beer has been out in this space tinkering and adding different things into different packs. And then as we see these gentlemen start to get into these different segments a little bit doing these mix packs, I think it makes sense to the customer. I know it does just from talking to other stores. And what I see is give them a variety pack of anything, whether it's a hard seltzer or a canned cocktail or beer. They want variety. They want to try different things. They want to revisit that horrible nightmare of gin or tequila to see if it still exists.

[00:44:20] Dogfish Head: Suzanne, are you seeing the consumers that are coming in and are buying these fourth category products, are those traditional Craft Beer buyers adding them to their basket or are these new consumers?

[00:44:32] Stan Canary: A little bit of both. I'm definitely still learning as well. I'm talking to people every single day. The younger generations, the younger drinkers, they're educating me as I learn what they're going after. But I'm seeing mid-40s, a couple, one of them might be adding a bunch of beer to a cart and the other one might be in the seltzer and or wine aisle. It's both. It definitely is both. And others, right? So I'm still... I'm still seeing traditional older drinkers drinking things that we would have expected them to drink. Maybe they're drinking wine. They're pulling Dan's Harpoon IPA. But they are also trying. They're trying this category a little bit. They're getting experimental. They're taking a single. I'm sure everybody knows that by now, but we sell singles of everything in every store. So they don't have to take a four pack. They can say, well, hey, let me try this because I'm not sure and it's $5. So let me take a single of it. They're experimenting a little bit.

[00:45:31] Dogfish Head: And then for Sam and Dan, what extent do you think making or selling fourth category products is a choice or a must at this point?

[00:45:41] Sam Calagione: So for us, out of the gates, we'd show up with beer festivals with beer-wine hybrids and beer-meat hybrids. And beer drinkers would get mad at us and be like, you're fucking with traditions. That's not cool. And that got us researching pre-Ryan Heidskobot history of alcoholic beverages, where pretty much almost every culture was just literally throwing shit at the wall, like mixed sugar sources to create beverages. You know, we always say the Ryan Heidsky Boat's a relatively modern form of art censorship, because humans have Bay Brewing for 10,000 years, but the law's only been around for 500. So for us, our entire journey has been around that, because we'd start distilling as early in our history. It's almost always been part of our journey. So never really kind of thought about it, really, in terms of the business.

[00:46:34] Mass Bay: And I would just say, you have to continue to experiment and learn from your customers. If you get into your bunker and say, I'm just going to make, you know, an alt beer or a wheat beer or whatever, you know, you're not going to be relevant for that long. So we interact with hundreds of thousands of our consumers every year, and we learn incredible things from them. And that doesn't count the online iteration. So people want more flavor. They want more categories. They want more sources of their alcohol. And we do too. So it's been a great learning experience for us. And we love the creativity that's flowing from all sides of the industry right now.

[00:47:13] Dogfish Head: So I want to go around the horn here and hear from everybody. But is there any cautionary tales that you can give to people who are going to start in this fourth category, anything they can learn from your past experiences about entering this space?

[00:47:29] Stan Canary: I continue to go back on the word authenticity. Be authentic. Create a product that replicates what you already do. Don't try to be anyone else. Pay attention to your own walls and put forth a good product that looks good. Spend the time and energy and the money to put the people in those departments that can help you put forth the product that looks as good as it tastes and so on and so forth.

[00:47:57] Mass Bay: Yeah, and I would say fail fast. The level of change is incredible. You know, when we think about what we had in the industry 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, it's wild how quickly you go. The shopping experience. Who likes the shopping experience? I mean, it's out of control, right? But it is what it is. And you can sort through it, and you can find incredible things, but you have to work at it a little bit. So I would say, if you're doing a Me Too product without authenticity or story, don't waste your time. And learn and fail quickly, because you're not always going to make it. And the other thing I'd say, again, because we've worked with partners, which is interesting, which has tremendous benefits. but also it means you have a partner you're learning with and who might be bringing their learnings from another category into this category and have constraints on it, which can be a challenge, because it's a, this world is much closer to our world in a lot of ways than it is to the traditional liquor or spirits world, let alone wine or even the mainstream beer. So learn and fail fast.

[00:49:07] Sam Calagione: And mine would be are the fourth category is so young, it's essentially is growing up in the pandemic moment. So as we're innovating new recipes, like to not forget that on prem is coming back. And that is an awesome sampling opportunity. I know you're both on and off prem. But what we've learned was we were first like, OK, well, we've got our James Beard-nominated cocktail program. Let's go to those fancy restaurants first with our canned cocktails. And they're like, fuck you. I make $22 off a martini. I don't want your canned stuff in my restaurant. But then listening to high-volume but high-end demographic venues and golf places or high-end sports bars, especially, and I was going to ask this of Hempy's panel, especially when we're so challenged on help in the hospitality world, how many really great restaurants and bars want to have really great quality cocktails, but don't have the staff to have the mixologist behind the bar going to them with our innovative craft cocktails that are already ready to go. I feel like as we come out of COVID, it's one of the great white spaces that we have.

[00:50:17] Stan Canary: Yeah, I don't know who has the help to pour that $22 cocktail, but we don't.

[00:50:24] Mass Bay: So we'll take it. You think about, you go to a venue, and the 19.2s are the small-sized beers. And 19.2, who thinks that's an awesome size? I mean, I drink fast enough, so it stays cold, so that's all right. But it's all, I mean, think about it, it's all driven by these venues because they want to get it into people's hands quickly. And the craft cocktail, the can, it's like they could add a shot to it quickly if somebody wants a little bit of a bigger drink, but it's solving a problem in this day and age. So that's another, I think, on-premise, a tremendous opportunity.

[00:50:54] Dogfish Head: And Suzanne, you have that on-premise with Drinkdish too. So what is, how is RTDs and everything playing into that space?

[00:51:00] Stan Canary: We won't be mixing cocktails at Drinktish any time soon, not in the foreseeable future, not with what exists on our market. And as we've heard, it keeps growing and changing, and it's getting better. So it's not happening. Our people are going to be focused on the taps and learning. And that was one thing I was going to add, Zoe, is just Listen to your customers. That's so critical. When I think about where we are in this space and investing in the help that we do have, it's like we all need the most amazing people catching those info emails. We really need those people. We need them to both answer quickly and adequately, but also to pass that information back because it's so powerful in the way we look to shape this category.

[00:51:53] Dogfish Head: So looking more into retail and everything, this is a question we had and some of our audience members had as well. Suzanne, what are you seeing is the segment that is losing the most space to this big category? We have a beer delivery for our members here. We'll take a pause for that. Very important. Got to stay hydrated.

[00:52:16] Stan Canary: We have a Trinktish, which is a 200-seat beer hall that's adjacent to Craft Beer Cellar in Belmont, if you don't know. We have a seltzer on tap. It's kind of a weird one for me, but I was like, hey, I don't make decisions by myself anymore. I listen to the people that are around me as well that have a reason to state the things that they do, and they have the data to back it up, and maybe the passion for the cry for it. I'm going with it. We've poured a kombucha. It wasn't as successful. I feel like seltzer's getting a little, I don't know, messy. Right now, we'll see how it shakes out. I don't see some of the bigger brands losing a lot of steam. I don't see that actually translating on the shelf. But I'm seeing some smaller players jump in that scene. So I don't know. I mean, what's growing for me, what I see is kombucha. This scene and the light kombucha or the diet kombucha, I don't even know. But I'm seeing dialed down alcohols and dialed down ingredients. We'll see. We're looking to get the gas levels right and start doing a blended cocktail on tap. So we're up for it. We're up for the fun.

[00:53:34] Dogfish Head: Sam, how do you at Dogfish prefer to see canned cocktails merchandised? What is the strategy for you guys?

[00:53:41] Sam Calagione: Yeah, so it's interesting as we now as we're coming out of COVID, on the road more visiting our distributors, as brewers, it's both like both like alarming and interesting that we make a bunch of different things now to see how much real estate is going towards, you know, spirits based, but unlike the Craft Beer that kind of grew organically over decades, these retailers are making decisions like, you know, very rash on how that's going to be displayed. Like, some of them literally have the words RTD above the thing, which I always thought was just, you'd read it in Brewbound or Harry or Bench, like, oh my god, it's the RTD character? Are customers calling it that? It's so, so weird. But we know it's gaining space. So for us, And knowing how crowded it is and how muddy it is, we're trying to make sure we're both represented cold. It's the same Craft Beer methods that is like you want to be eye level, you want to be cold, you want to be in that set with the other higher volume players and spirits RTD. But additionally, we work hard to try and get a display warm and make sure we have the right POS for that. in part because our canned cocktails at 70 ABV with a pretty high level of acidity from the fruit are relatively bulletproof compared to like a double IPA in terms of shelf stability warm. So we do try to get both, both cold eye level but also a separate display to separate us from right now what's a pretty messy warm shelf.

[00:55:13] Dogfish Head: Dan, I did want to touch on some of your partnerships that you guys have within this space, specifically those, right? Coat Spirits, Vodka Whips, that's your partnership with Flying Dog, FXMAT. How does that partnership work and what is the benefit of having a product like that?

[00:55:29] Mass Bay: Again, not playing inside base probably, but Sam knows Fred.

[00:55:33] Sam Calagione: And by the way, he's too humble. FX Mats, about a decade ago, had a horrific fire at their 100-plus year facility. And I was touring Harpoon like 10 years ago. I'm like, what the fuck's that? Is that Utica Club coming off the canning line here at Harpoon? And while they had that challenge, that fire had shut down, they were tinkering their beer down to your facility to fill. And massive karma in that.

[00:55:58] Mass Bay: Well, that's the way the industry is. Thank you. You do it for us, and we do it for you. That's the beauty of this industry. And people outside the industry don't quite get that, but it's kind of in the ethos. It's how we grew up, and it's what we do. And it led to this, like with Fred. Fred wanted to be able to do a handshake agreement. And I think maybe it's the older you get to realize you want to choose the people you work with so you can do a handshake agreement and not have to bring lawyers in and kind of really spend a lot of time on the non-fun parts of a partnership. And so it really was, this is really boring stuff. I was walking back from a dentist appointment and Fred called me and said, we want to do a vodka drink. What do you think? I said, I'm in. I'm all over this. I love the category. I love some of the drinks I've been having in that world. And so let's get behind it. And so it took about six months to come up with the vodka whips that we've made. And it was great working with brewing partners in this space. I think it's made us more effective at retail because we all came from the brewing world. Because again, this category, as I said earlier, is closer to our world than any other. So we do bring some relevant expertise to this industry that our partners outside of beer don't know. They're not as familiar with the cold box. So yeah, a lot of different meetings with Fred and the gang down at Flying Dog to come up with something we like, bringing on partners that we like to help us make it. And it's gone very well so far. It's just about a month old.

[00:57:33] Dogfish Head: So we're going to wrap this up. I just want to hear from each of you. How do you see the fourth category changing in the future and how your involvement in that will be?

[00:57:42] Sam Calagione: Well, kind of like the Craft Beer, or even just like specifically the IPA space, there's so much energy going into the fourth category that it's going to continue to fragment into subcategories. If you look at IPAs from Session to Double to Hazy, etc. Similarly, even just within the spirit side of RTD, we see that continue to fragment. And we at BBC are really excited as an innovators for that moment. We've already announced that we're excited to be bringing our truly vodka seltzer to market within months here. We have Dogfish Head think they're really complimentary like ABV and positioning wise. And we're going to continue to innovate with other brands and our own brands in that spirits like chess pieces. of FMBs while we continue to give oxygen to tea and and truly malt-based also in those those spaces. So we're really excited but I love that you said beer's your middle name, beer's our middle name too. So I was on an awesome three-hour call last night with Robert Vale, our head of innovation, and just continue to think about what could be after IPA for beer. Because we love our IPAs. We make a ton of IPAs. But we feel like to bring oxygen back to the craft space, outside of the taproom world, which has tons of awesome engineers around IPAs and fruited sours, what do the top 30 IRI Craft Beer brands do to bring energy back to the three-tier space for sizable Craft Beer is something that we're thinking a lot about. whether it's Angel City, Coney, Dogfish, our small locations are Jackson Pollocking the fuck out of that right now and throwing stuff at the wall to say what can beer become in the next 10 years.

[00:59:33] Stan Canary: As I stated earlier, I'm along for the ride. I think we're going to see some big growth in this category. I think by the end of this decade, we'll be double where we are right now. There's a lot of hard shit in the world right now. And I think that COVID taught us a lot of things. And this pandemic reminded us of the importance of relationships and feeling good and doing better things for ourselves. And I think one thing that I know for sure that I have to accept is that beer can be heavy. Beer can be something that weighs you down a little bit. And I think, generally speaking, customers are looking for things that don't have them feeling so intoxicated, I guess. It means different things for different people. All in all, there's 24 hours in a day, and there are only so many ways to alter, right? Some people aren't altering at all. I mean, we're not here talking about non-alcoholic, as I look over and see Chris's hat. I mean, did any of us think that we would be looking at that growth as we have been over the last two or three years? So it's phenomenal. It's really phenomenal. I love, and I'll leave you with this. There's stuff now called hot brew, right? And it's just... seltzer water that has hops in it. And people are like, oh, this is amazing. And they're taking a drink of it. So I think we have to embrace it. Let's ride the creativity. Let's stay connected. Let's talk to our partners. Let's educate, educate, educate. People don't know anything about some of this stuff. And we've got to take a step back. We've got to talk to them about yeast. That's a conversation that we have a lot. What's in this stuff? How are we getting to kombucha? How are we getting to seltzer? What's in there? Why is it so? We call it spicy. It's so spicy. It's so carbonated. Yeah, that high carbonation or that crazy yeast strain. So I'm along for it. I think we've got growth days ahead.

[01:01:33] Mass Bay: Sam, I do love that you brought it back to beer. I mean, just as an old beer guy. But no one's mentioned THC. And I think.

[01:01:40] Sam Calagione: That's because we have short term memory loss, Tim.

[01:01:42] Mass Bay: Yeah. I think, you know, THC, I think, is a real frontier in the beverage world. And it's just starting. No one's talked me out of the idea that if you had a beverage that was low in calories, that was as predictable as a five or six percent beer, that did not give you a hangover, that kind of was sociable like a beverage, that that, why wouldn't that do really well? So I think, I think we, if people can nail that, there's a real market there, I think. And that's a whole nother category, a whole nother selling channel, as we know. But I do think, you know, we can never get away from this too, as brewers and the focus on, there's still a lot of innovation we can do here. And Sam, you and your team have been amazing over the years and, leading the way in a lot of these innovations. So I'm just delighted to be here and thank you for the opportunity to get together with people I know and like so much over just some great beverages.

[01:02:38] Dogfish Head: Well, that's a perfect way to end it. Thank you so much, guys, for chatting about this.

[01:02:43] Stan Canary: Thank you, Zoe. Cheers.

[01:02:48] Jessica Infante: All right, and that's our show for this week. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe, the Cal Ripken of podcast editing. Thanks to Zoe and Jess. Thanks to all of you for listening. We will be back next week.