Brewbound Podcast: Convention Prep With NBWA President Craig Purser

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Next on the Brewbound Podcast, an NBWA annual convention primer. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:20] Jessica Infante: I'm Jessica Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:22] Justin Kendall: And we're going to be on the road in just a few days. By the time you're listening to this, we'll probably be in the air somewhere on our way to San Diego for the NBWA's annual convention and product showcase. Looking forward to actually seeing you both in person for a change.

[00:00:40] Jessica Infante: I know, it'll be so nice. It's been a minute. I don't even remember the last time we were all together.

[00:00:45] Justin Kendall: It's going to take me too long to think about it because it has been that long. Probably CBC.

[00:00:51] Jessica Infante: Yeah, CBC.

[00:00:52] Justin Kendall: CBC. So we are going to be in person at the Lost Abbeys Church. We're going to be there on Sunday from 4 to 6 PM. You're all welcome to join us. RSVP at Brewbound.com. Just going to have a happy hour and some apps and then head over to the opening night party. But I don't know. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:01:13] Craig Purser: afternoon services with Father Tommy. It's going to be great.

[00:01:16] Justin Kendall: We can't beat that. So I think we'll just move on. So yeah, sign up now and we will see you there. We will also hopefully see you at Brewbound Live 2024. That's taking place December 11th and 12th in Marina Del Rey, California. And we have a lot on the agenda for this year's conference. We have wholesalers, we have retailers, we have everything in between. We're going to have Natalie Treluso from Russian River opening up festivities basically on the 11th with a keynote speech on creating experiences and also creating loyal customers out of those. So looking forward to that as well. Tickets are available now at Brewbound.com. Anything y'all want to add?

[00:02:00] Craig Purser: I mean, I think we've still got room for sponsors. If anybody wants to join the party with us, definitely reach out to the Brewbound sales team.

[00:02:08] Justin Kendall: Yep. There are sponsorships open. There are still a couple of speaker spots open. So, you know. If you want to shoot your shot, shoot your shot. So we're in the final days of planning here. And also awards nominations are open. So that's another thing that you can shoot your shot for. Look for details at Brewbound.com. This week's episode. We're going to have NBWA President and CEO Craig Purser here. He'll fill us in on the themes of this year's convention, as well as a state of the middle tier. So stay tuned for that. Also look for a second episode of this podcast later this week, as in Friday. And we were gonna have an interview with Kim McKinnish, previewing the annual Making Moves Conference aimed at women in the beer industry. So we also have that going on. So double podcast week here.

[00:03:01] Craig Purser: Spoiling the people. Spoiling the people with the content.

[00:03:04] Justin Kendall: Well, let's get into the news. Speaking of spoiling the people with the stories and the content and such. And why don't we talk about your trip to Chicago, Zoe, for the BOP conference.

[00:03:16] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I got to hang out with some designers basically mostly for a couple days, which was pretty cool. I felt kind of uncool compared to all these like artists and stuff.

[00:03:26] Craig Purser: You're like the coolest person that I know, so I can only imagine what that room was like.

[00:03:31] Jessica Infante: There was a lot of fashion choices made that were, like, I felt slightly, like, not up to par. They dress great in that design world. But yeah, so this was the third annual Bob Beer Design Conference hosted by the Stout Collective. And in Chicago was A very good like vibes all around about this conference was just like a lot of people didn't really know each other Beer Design folks don't really get to interact with each other too much like within like across different companies and things. And they're talking about several panels and presentations over the two-day conference, talking about everything from how do you find inspiration to Beer Design to how can you market on social media? How do you talk to Gen Z? How do you build a brand that has soul? There was a lot of different conversations that happened. that are relevant not just to people who are designing art and packaging for beer, but just beer folks in general on creating a brand. So it was a really fun conference. I liked it a lot. It was lively and everyone, their whole thing is like, we don't hand out business cards, we hand out stickers. So like all the designers had different stickers and stuff going around. It was really cool.

[00:04:55] Craig Purser: And for people who don't know, who and what is Stout Collective?

[00:04:58] Jessica Infante: So Stout Collective specifically work with breweries and beer companies with their designs and their like branding strategy. So they are like consulting and design studio. and work with folks all across the board. Not just breweries, they've worked with hop suppliers and that kind of stuff. So they are just trying to make cool looking things in beer, whether it's your packaging, it's your marketing materials, it's certain campaigns, that kind of stuff. So many, many prominent breweries that you'll probably have seen some of their work out there and not realize that they're helping out. So, yeah.

[00:05:41] Justin Kendall: And you had a nice report from the Tomato Baby Juicy Insights. I think that's what it's called. But on the how to understand and embrace and attract Gen Z consumers.

[00:05:56] Jessica Infante: Yeah, so Tomato Baby Insights is a consulting and data insights firm that's based out of Boston that was founded and run by this woman who presented, Angie Meltzner. and she was talking about like all the these kind of key themes or trends that Gen Z latches on to and it was a pretty refreshing presentation about Gen Z because we have watched a lot of those and we've even had some of our own of just what is Gen Z all about, what is happening with Gen Z, how do you speak to these kind of scary people who are doing things differently than other generations including possibly drinking less or drinking different things and she pointed to five kind of greater themes within their kind of culture and how they interact with things that you can embrace and use with your branding or with your marketing, your messaging that will speak to them and feel not like you're just, I don't know, pandering to them or something. And those five things were healthy hedonism, embracing the absurd, ode to joy, nostalgia, and third places. And the nostalgia one was one of my favorite ones that she did because it wasn't just what we think of nostalgia is like thinking back to your youth or things that were happening to you before things you have experienced before that you're looking back on. But Gen Z has nostalgia for almost like millennial childhoods and things that they didn't get to experience. And a lot of the times when technology wasn't so big or algorithms weren't a part of your everyday life, that kind of thing. And so that's why you see so much 90s and early 2000s themes coming back, whether it's fashion or they're making new websites now that kind of look like early internet days sites, almost like a Myspace recreation now with the top 10. You're not posting photos all the time. You're just writing whatever you want on your page. There's a whole group of people who are meeting up and are anti-smartphones and trying to entertain themselves Amanda Huang out without having a screen in front of your face all the time. It's kind of taking over. The Gen Zs are kind of sick of all the technology, even though it's a huge part of their lives.

[00:08:22] Craig Purser: I enjoyed your story so much because I've been noticing, like when you talk about like late 90s and early 2000s clothes that are coming back, it's stuff that's like, I was perplexed, frankly, a lot of wide leg jeans. We know what happens with these. The bottoms get wet if it's raining or snowy. No one likes these. Let's all please move on. But your story made it all make sense because it was like, oh, that's what these kids are into. And I don't blame them. I would posit that my very small sliver of the people kind of had it the best. Like we had a little bit of the internet, we had email, we had AOL, we had AOL Instant Messenger, like we knew how these things worked. So we weren't completely starting from scratch when technology really took off. We weren't completely connected all the time. You know, like it was a nice way to grow up. Like we, we understand it, but aren't in like immersed.

[00:09:21] Jessica Infante: One of the moments from Angie's presentation was she showed a video from YouTube that was someone had recorded a high school hallway from the early 2000s and kids just laughing. It was making me nostalgic for middle school, because it looked very much like our middle school hallways. But that video has 18 million views. And the number one most liked comment on that video is, they look so much happier than people these days. And it's like the kids are really into this idea that people are just hanging out in the hallways and talking to their friends and like not worried about Instagram or something else. It was like they are really latching on to like wishing they could have experienced some of that time before right now. So you can understand.

[00:10:09] Craig Purser: Can we talk about the third places aspect of your story? Because I think that's really relevant to everybody.

[00:10:15] Jessica Infante: Yeah. So another one of those themes was the third places and that's these areas where you can meet and interact and socialize outside of like your home or something. The idea of third places is you can see it in shows like Friends or Seinfeld, where they have their go-to spots where they meet and they hang out. And those don't exist as much anymore. Part of that is because of the pandemic, because it shut down lots of these businesses that people were going to, or because people got used to being inside and finding their activities to do by themselves or at home, and so they're not branching out as much. they're working from home, so they don't have an excuse to go get lunch out at the coffee shop next to your office or something. And so Gen Z is missing this type of place to go and connect with people outside of the internet space, and they're looking for something to satisfy that. and she brought the way this is shown or is being like catered to in branding is things like Heineken recently did a campaign with Bodega, which is a kind of streetwear brand. They have a spot here in Boston, and it was called the boring phone like. campaign and it was showing people being distracted by their cell phones at a bar and they miss a bottle of Heineken flying down the bar and the guy who's not on his phone gets the reward of having the beer because he's socializing with his friends and so showing this idea of like you're in a fun spot, you're enjoying a beverage with your friends away from technology, Heineken can be your companion for that. But yeah, the third spaces thing is really like, it's not something you think about really, because you're like, yeah, there's still coffee shops and bars around and everything, but it's not as integrated into what we're doing on a daily basis anymore, at least for a Gen Z, because they're so used to just communicating with their phones or FaceTiming or Snapchat or whatever.

[00:12:19] Craig Purser: What a great actionable insights there for particularly brewery owners. So check out Zoe's story at Brewbound.com.

[00:12:25] Jessica Infante: Yeah, lots of examples in there too of just brands across CBG who are speaking to us. You can see some real world examples of how do you even connect what you're doing with your brand to some of these trends. Yeah, it was a really cool presentation.

[00:12:43] Justin Kendall: Well, let's get into a little bit of a Brewers Association data. And Jess, you're on top of this as far as, you know, where IPA is sort of hotter than other places and maybe some other styles that are popping in different pockets.

[00:13:00] Craig Purser: Yeah, so the Brewer's Association staff economist, Matt Gasiak, had a really interesting report that I think he posted a couple of weeks ago and I just kind of happened upon it and was like, oh, there's good stuff in here. So I did a little digging with that and added some of my own research. And this surprised me quite a bit. I mean, you guys have both read the story, so we can't really play trivia, but I did make my husband play this game last night where I was like, if you had to guess what states have the highest percentage of the money that people... I had to break it down in normal person terms for him. So if you had to guess what states have the highest percentage of money spent on craft beer being spent on IPAs, what would you guess? And he said Vermont, California, maybe Colorado.

[00:13:46] Jessica Infante: All very like understandable guesses.

[00:13:50] Craig Purser: And all wrong. Yeah, so the winners here are Connecticut and Delaware, where craft beer drinkers spend 69% of the money they spend on craft beer on IPAs, which is kind of crazy. So. That I thought was really interesting, especially when you think about all those other states, you know, like the country's best-selling craft IPAs. And for this report, I made sure to double check with Matt, sometimes BA data is BA-defined craft breweries, and sometimes it's not. So in this case, it was not, which means that things like Elysian Space Dust, which is owned by Anheuser-Busch, that's included. like the whole Voodoo Ranger family that's included here. So, you know, the states where those beers come from are not that high up on the IPA share meter. You know, they're pretty high, you know, like other states where IPA had a notably high dollar share are Vermont, 65%, Pennsylvania, 64, New York, 62, Oregon, 62, New Hampshire, 61, and Massachusetts, 60. but the states where IPA share of craft dollars is low, I found this really interesting. So Wisconsin was the lowest at 25%. That's not all that surprising when you think about who the largest craft producer in Wisconsin is, and far and away, that's Nuglaris. And we'll revisit that in just a moment. So Wisconsin was the lowest, followed by Kansas at 26, Utah at 29%, Arkansas 34%, Louisiana 34%, and Texas 38%. Honestly, this map to me looked a lot like some like Electoral College maps. Like the states that go blue have a pretty high percentage of IPA dollars and the states that go red do not. I don't know what that's about, but I thought it was interesting. So that's IPA share, but then Matt dug in a little bit more and he looked up where there are like what he was calling outlier styles. So there were some states where certain styles of beer like do really well in these states relative to other states. So one of his examples was that Cezanne does really well in Wisconsin, but that's all driven by IPA. New Glarus Spotted Cow. Other examples of that where there's like almost like an unofficial state craft beer brand, Shiner Bock in Texas and Abita Amber Lager in Louisiana. But more than 75% of the dollar sales of Bock, Saison, and Amber Lager in those states respectively are all going to each of those brands, which is massive. So that was the style stuff. I thought it was really interesting. Do you want to get into production or is that? Not as.

[00:16:28] Justin Kendall: We can get into production since it's depressing for the Midwest.

[00:16:31] Craig Purser: It is depressing for the Midwest. I am very sorry to our Midwestern friends. But yeah, the BA also breaks the country into Northeast, which is like Maine down to Pennsylvania, then there's the South, then there's the Midwest and the West. And of those four Uber regions, the Midwest really kind of had the roughest time last year in terms of craft beer. overall volume throughout the Midwest declined 6%, but you know it wasn't like sunshine and rainbows everywhere. The Northeast was the only region to increase volume and that was only 1%. But the thing that was interesting about the Midwest is that the BA, as listeners of our podcast know, break the craft beer industry into four different pockets. There are regional brewers, which are the biggest craft brewers and sell the vast majority of their beer into distribution and make more than 15,000 barrels of beer a year. There are micro brewers who also sell most of their beer into distribution, but make less than 15,000 barrels a year. Then there are the two types of breweries that sell most of their beer on their own premises, which are brewpubs, sell most of the beer at their own place, but they also operate restaurants, and taprooms, which also sell most of the beer at their own place, but do not operate restaurants. So all four of those in the Midwest declined kind of a lot.

[00:17:51] Justin Kendall: Just looking across the board, that is the most depressing bar graph I think I've ever seen. They're almost all upside down.

[00:18:00] Craig Purser: I mean, you can complain or you can go out and start drinking. That's true.

[00:18:05] Jessica Infante: Everyone, everyone stop sending Justin free beers and force him to go buy beer.

[00:18:13] Craig Purser: Well, so the other regions, like almost all of them only had one of those brewery categories that was in the positive. So it was kind of a bloodbath across the board, but yes, it was worse in the Midwest. Sorry, friends. But I mean, you could also kind of pinpoint what was happening. So the Northeast had like a huge spike. in gains in regional breweries, but that's mostly just athletic. So it was fun. I had a fun time nerding out on this story. You can read both of these at Brewbound.com and nerd out with me, but spent a lot of time with numbers and data and spreadsheets and maps.

[00:18:49] Justin Kendall: Well, let's wrap this up. Speaking of non-alcoholic beer, and this one, it took a little while, but it was, I would say, the most obvious one to come down the pipe. And that is Michelob Ultra Zero. Anheuser-Busch is finally tapping into the brand equity of its active lifestyle, super premium brand, and making a non-alcoholic beer. That's rolling in January in cans, and I think bottles are following in March.

[00:19:23] Craig Purser: Yeah. I mean, if you don't have your new non-alc out for January, what even are you doing?

[00:19:28] Justin Kendall: You know, there's something in the back of my head that's tripping me here because I'm like, I wonder if this is going to be the most cannibalization you might see from an alcoholic beer and a non-alcoholic beer. just because of that sort of active lifestyle thing and you're finally giving them, you know, the non-alc version, are you going to cut into the alcoholic version sales here a little more than you would another brand?

[00:20:00] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I had a, when I first saw this, I was initially skeptical and I was trying to figure out why because it makes sense that this is a major like beer brand that is doing really well and all sides are pointing to you should have a non-alcoholic version of this so you can increase occasions for your brand. and i think the reason why i was skeptical is because at least like just looking at my own like personal consumption of things. michelobulger is what i reach to if i am just going for a domestic beer and usually i'm using it as something because I want lower ABV or I'm trying to cut down on the amount of alcohol I'm consuming. I'm using it in a very similar way to how I am using non-alcoholic beers. And so I feel like I'm not looking for a non-alcoholic version of it because I'm already using it in that way almost. And the non-alcoholic beers that I'm drinking, I'm drinking because I wanted something more flavor forward. I want something that's more craft-centric, but I don't want the ABV that comes with a lot of craft brands. And so I don't really know. if a non-alcoholic Michelob Ultra is actually adding anything for me, but that's just me personally. So I'm sure there are folks who are really dedicated, there are folks that are really dedicated to this brand, they love this brand, and they I'm sure will add it to their repertoire, but Yeah, this one feels slightly different for me and I can't quite... that's the only thing I can figure out as to why that is. No, everything you just said makes a ton of sense.

[00:21:49] Craig Purser: The group I see this NA beer playing well with is like the... older like Gen X, younger boomers, men who were like really into this, but maybe haven't started dabbling in regular non-ALC. Maybe they have preconceived notions about the non-ALC world just being like dusty bottles of Old Duels. And I think this could be a good entryway for them to get into it. Like I see, to me, Miculture is like the brand of golf dads.

[00:22:21] Justin Kendall: I think that's fair.

[00:22:22] Craig Purser: And I don't know if that's right or not.

[00:22:24] Justin Kendall: Like, the older lady set, I could see, you know.

[00:22:29] Craig Purser: Yeah, like actually my mom likes Michelob Ultra. But my mom would never drink a non-alc, you know, like she doesn't want a beer so much so that she's going to do that. In a non-alc situation, she would probably just have a water or Diet Coke.

[00:22:44] Justin Kendall: In that regard, you wonder if it is the occasion creator that other non-alcoholic beers are. But, you know, we are what? more than a year out, year and a half from the whole like Bud Light controversy. And this is a brand that's persevered or has made a bit of a rally. I think it was had some of that negative halo effect early on, but it's certainly up to what the second best selling beer in off-premise retailers and the number one beer in AB's portfolio at this point.

[00:23:22] Craig Purser: I wonder if we would ever see a bud light, not an elk. Probably not.

[00:23:28] Justin Kendall: Like, I mean, not now.

[00:23:29] Craig Purser: Well, no, not now. It's interesting. Like when you compare the two brand families, like they have bastardized, but like even before all of that, like the platinum, the, the versions that have all the different citrus flavors, the seltzer, like they did so much and they did a little bit of that to make ultra there is make ultra seltzer. I think it still exists.

[00:23:54] Justin Kendall: I was surprised Next still exists. I saw that. It does? Yeah, it must be selling somewhere because I was going through and I saw it in the Cercana scans and I was like, oh, I forgot about you. What's also interesting about this play is how well they've done so far with their modern non-ALC brands. I think almost everything was up double digits almost i know budweiser zero was double digit dollars close on volume bush n a up eight percent in dollars Stella, Liberty, I think that was up double digits as well. Mango Cart, that's another one, but it was fairly small. I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars for that brand as opposed to the others in the millions. But then you get to the legacy brands, and it's like, They're bleeding, you know, it's the O'Doul's down 10% in dollars, Beck's down eight and a half percent. And then you really had to look for St. Polly Girl N.A., which is down nearly 100% across the board in dollars and volume. And I think sales were down to $21,764 so far.

[00:25:19] Craig Purser: The poor Miss Polly Girl. You have to assume that those brands are gonna get taken out back and but out to pasture, right?

[00:25:28] Justin Kendall: Does O'Doul's persist out of those maybe and the others just bite it?

[00:25:33] Craig Purser: Yeah, because I think O'Doul's is kind of like the pioneer of the segment here. That's like what everybody thinks of.

[00:25:43] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I feel like you got to wait until like the generation that Only knew O'Doul's is gone before that truly. Also goes to the farm.

[00:25:52] Craig Purser: Yeah, exactly. I was at a bachelorette party like, God, like five years ago now. And one of the girls attending was pregnant. And she told me that her favorite was Beck's N.A. She said it tasted most like a beer. I mean, I wonder what she thinks now.

[00:26:07] Justin Kendall: I was surprised that Beck's still still chugs on, but I shouldn't be surprised because Rolling Rocks still is selling somewhere.

[00:26:17] Craig Purser: while Bex was not on acclaimed HBO miniseries, Mare of Easttown.

[00:26:23] Justin Kendall: This is true. I think there are two Mare of Easttown, like two people clinging to the Mare of Easttown and it's you and me.

[00:26:33] Craig Purser: Yeah, I think so.

[00:26:34] Justin Kendall: Just because of the rolling rock.

[00:26:36] Craig Purser: I feel like it was a great show.

[00:26:37] Justin Kendall: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:26:38] Craig Purser: If you told me Kate Winslet was from Wawa land, I would 5,000% believe you based on her accent.

[00:26:43] Justin Kendall: Well, with that, let's get to our featured interview with Craig Purser from the NBWA. The National Beer Wholesalers Association's 87th Annual Convention and Product Showcase takes place next week in San Diego. Joining us to preview this year's event is NBWA President and CEO Craig Purser. Thanks for being here, Craig.

[00:27:07] National Beer: Thank you, Justin. Great to see you guys and looking forward to seeing you in sunny San Diego, where it's always 75 degrees.

[00:27:15] Justin Kendall: I can't wait for 75 degrees versus I was just scorching 80 plus degree weather that I have endured all summer. Let's get into it. MBWA does such a good job of laying out its priorities at the annual convention, and I'm sure this year is not going to be an exception. So what are the organization's goals for 2025?

[00:27:39] National Beer: Well, it's interesting because our goal is always, you know, we're an advocacy organization. So that is kind of an ongoing, you know, thrust forward for whatever it is that's coming at us. But as we're looking at 2025, you know, we've got this thing coming up in about 46, 47 days. Maybe you've heard of it. It's a national election. It happens to coincide this year on my birthday. Thank you. Thanks a hell of a lot for that. But November 5th, Americans will go to the polls and You know, we look at an unusual dynamic where we've got a lot of question marks. You know, those of us in the advocacy business kind of bank on predictability, and we bank on the whole idea of certainty. And we don't have either one of those as we look forward. But we do know we have some challenges that are in front of us. You know, and one thing that's without question, kind of a bigger industry concern is this kind of uptick in media that has been focused on criticizing alcohol as a product, and it's coinciding with maybe some changes in consumer preferences as it relates to, you know, alcohol and its relevance. That also sets the table, pardon the pun, for the 2025 dietary guidelines that are put out every five years by government, the Department of Health and Human Services and the United States Department of Agriculture come together and give Americans guidance on what they should put into their bodies. And certainly dietary guidelines is something that we're minding. Another big issue as it relates to 2025 is the expiration of a wide variety of tax provisions. And that's important because companies and individuals actually make their plans based on some form of tax certainty. And we have a dynamic in 2025 where if Congress does nothing, we are looking at the expiration of what's been an effective rate reduction for every pass-through business in America. That means every individually or privately held beer distributor or brewer in the U.S. that's organized as a Schedule S or a limited liability corporation, anything that's where the tax burden is paid on the individual's earning, you know, that tax relief from 2017 is at risk of expiration. So that's another priority that we're going to be talking about and planning for in 2025. And then obviously, as advocates for distributors, all of the ongoing issues related to an effective three-tier system and an effective system of, you know, being able to provide consumers with all the choice and variety that this great industry has been able to provide are part of our ongoing challenges and the things that we're seeking to address. Pretty full play. I would say so.

[00:30:28] Craig Purser: One thing that I always really appreciate about the MBWA convention is that general session looks long on the agenda, but you guys keep it popping. Segments just kind of come and go and everything's always really interesting. You always have a great slate of speakers. What themes should we be looking out for during general session that we should keep in mind when we're covering the convention?

[00:30:48] National Beer: Well, you know, anytime you put together a program like this, what you're trying to do is, I use this analogy, I've used it before, but it's really trying to put together a multi-course meal. You know, some meetings or maybe a smorgasbord or a cafeteria, what we're trying to do is put a bunch of pieces together that work well together and gives the attendee some value. They leave with something that they didn't know. And I think we've always done a good job in talking about what the challenges are. And we've done a really good job, I think, about talking about opportunities, but I'm hopeful for this year that what we'll do is we'll go a little bit further on those opportunities and talk about some solutions. We're excited about some of the speakers that we've got. We've got a couple of marketing experts that are just absolutely tremendous. We're excited about having Amy Jo Martin, who is actually a marketing expert, she is interesting in as much as she is the marketer who taught Shaquille O'Neal how to tweet. And she is going to be anchoring a supplier panel with Sean from New Belgium, and with Paul Chibe from Pabst, and with Bill from Atlantic Brewing. And between those three suppliers, we're extremely excited to hear their thoughts about what the industry can do to return to growth. You know, Bill certainly and Athletic have been wildly successful with the expansion and just almost taking the NA category and just blowing it up. you know, they've gotten a lot of love from the Wall Street Journal and from Wall Street, you know, as of late, we think that's a great story to tell. Paul, obviously, with the Pabst book of brands, you know, brings a lot of nostalgic and popular beers back and is always trying to help grow that piece of the business. And then obviously, Sean has presided over the expansion of the Voodoo Ranger franchise, which is an amazing story to tell, that I think maybe three or four years ago, nobody saw coming. So we're excited about that. We're also excited about—we've got a record number of suppliers. Maggie Timony from Anakin USA is going to join us. Six years ago, she joined us in San Diego when she was brand new to her role as the president of Heineken USA. We're going to revisit that and hear some of her thoughts. They've had some incredible kind of product successes, including once again in the NA space, Heineken 0.0. Jim Cook is going to be anchoring an on-premise panel. where we're going to hear from Jim and then Robbie Meletus, who is a distributor from Portland, Oregon, and Alex Bergson, who is from New York City, and they're going to dive a little deeper with the assistance of our own Lester Jones, talking about the on-premise and what can be done to go after, I don't want to call it low-hanging fruit, because it is low-hanging, But to go after getting people back together again, there is, I think, a real necessity to help the on-premise kind of shake it off, with all pardoning to Taylor Swift. And we've got to get people coming back together. There's a lot of disruption that's out there. There's a lot of competition for discretionary dollars. Alex has said before, you know, in some cases, people are talking about what's competing with the beer industry for occasions. And he said at an industry meeting earlier this year, inflation, you know, the rent, those kinds of things are all cutting into growth for the industry. And I think we're looking forward to a very candid discussion about how we can address those. We'll also have Jonathan Martin, who is both with Politico magazine and the New York Times. He's probably one of the most active reporters in politics. As a matter of fact, I talked to Jonathan yesterday, and Jay Mart, he has been a busy, busy beaver, as you can imagine, over the last 60 days as we've watched massive change as it relates to the presidential election.

[00:34:37] Jessica Infante: First of all, as a November 2nd baby, I want to empathize with you, Craig, on the election taking over our birthdays.

[00:34:45] National Beer: That's crazy. Scorpio together.

[00:34:49] Jessica Infante: Exactly. That is quite a stacked lineup you have going on there. And on top of that, one of the things that I always look forward to from this event is the kind of a bit of the passing of the torch to the next chairperson as well. That happens. And Rebecca Meisel from golf distributing is going to be your new chairwoman. And she's the first one in like two decades. Is that about right? First woman to chair the NBWA. Can you give us any kind of preview of what we should expect from her term and what she's looking to prioritize at all?

[00:35:21] National Beer: Well, you know, Rebecca, I think is, she's the first one that's going to point out that she's a, you know, she's a beer distributor that happens to be a woman. But by the same token, you know, her record and her service to our board organization has been, you know, I think maybe second to none in a lot of ways because she's been very involved in so many of the aspects around the board. She's our first chair that has actually come from and has been chair of our Next Generation Leadership Group. Her Emerging Leaders Program has been outstanding and it is just, kind of provided a shot in the arm to the entire organization, but it has also become, I think, the industry's leadership development engine. And the fact that she's chaired that has been fantastic. She's also chaired our political action committee. And, you know, that is no small feat when you're trying to marshal resources and put dollars together to effectively help elect and reelect pro-distributor and pro-beer candidates to Congress. She's an attorney by background, so she's been very involved with our legal committee and overseeing some of the work that we've done as it relates to ongoing efforts in different court cases and some of our advocacy in the courthouses and in the legal arena. And then also she's been very involved on the steering committee of our BRU program, which is Building Relationships and Empowering Women, which is maybe the newest kind of membership initiative. But it has just been fantastic to once again get all these other folks that are a huge part of the industry involved. The thing about BRU and the Alliance for Women in Beer, which is the meeting that will immediately follow the convention, Those programs are not just for women and we've had a number of men that have participated I attended a year and a half ago the first leadership conference and you know, I'll be honest I was prepared to tag the bag and say hello. I was tired from a bigger meeting I thought I'd quietly sneak out and I found myself just mesmerized by the quality of the programming and I I left learning a thing or two. So Rebecca is well-rounded. I think she is going to execute and lead the strategic objectives that the board has set. And I think she's going to be just an absolutely wonderful, wonderful leader as we look towards 2025.

[00:37:43] Craig Purser: Fun fact about Rebecca, we are stoked to have her on stage at Brewbound Live in December. So if you can't get enough, you can get more Rebecca.

[00:37:51] National Beer: I knew she was going to be with you. Yeah.

[00:37:53] Jessica Infante: She also had, I think, one of my favorite sessions from NBWA last year with her and some of her team talking about how they kind of had to reevaluate how they address leadership and building an inclusive and also just good business decision work environment. It was a really, really good session just talking about something that was incredibly important to a lot of folks, but they're a little iffy to talk about.

[00:38:20] National Beer: Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, Rebecca is part of a family business, like so many of the leaders in this business. She and her father and her two brothers run that company. And, you know, those dynamics, they're at work everywhere. And I think what we're all trying to do is improve our cultures to where we've got, you know, where we're working to maximize productivity. And that a lot of times includes the whole objective of making your leadership team and making your boardroom look more like your marketplace.

[00:38:54] Craig Purser: So important. I'm embarrassed to say this, but I have not yet been to a brew. So this will be my first time. I'm psyched.

[00:39:01] National Beer: Cool. Yeah. You won't be blown away. And interestingly, we've got one speaker that I left out of the general session is Erica Badan, who for Almost seven years. And Jessica, I'm not sure if we've talked about Barstool Sports before, but, you know, being from the neighborhood up there, the region, the vicinity, you know, I can't imagine working with Dave Portnoy for seven years. My God, that would drive me crazy. But, you know, what Barstool has been able to do and part of what we're interested in the story that she shares is just develop some incredible brand loyalty. and they cut through the clutter and they speak to a group of consumers who, when they embrace barstool, they're embracing a lot of the things that come with that from a marketing standpoint. So we're really excited about that. But Erica is going to be doing double duty because she'll be joining us for the keynote on Tuesday at the convention, but she will also be speaking at the Alliance for Women in Beer and Brew event on Tuesday afternoon.

[00:40:04] Craig Purser: I'm sure she has incredible insights and you're absolutely right that the Barstool crew is wildly loyal. I have feelings about Mr. Poitnoy's pizza reviews. I don't think he's always right, but.

[00:40:15] National Beer: Exactly, exactly. But you can't argue with the marketing success. You know, and that's the thing about, I think about so many things out there. You don't have to embrace everything that comes with a brand necessarily. And you certainly can still be critical. Life's too short to find 100% allies. For sure.

[00:40:36] Craig Purser: So I wanna dig into something that you brought up at the top of our chat, and that's dietary guidelines. And the FDA and Health and Human Services do this every five years. I covered it the last time around, and they were considering cutting the daily allowance for men from two drinks to one. Women are already at one. And people are really concerned this go around. Industry insiders are concerned that the groups working on this could lower limits of alcohol consumption for legal drinking age adults. And there's been a lot of ruffled feathers. So how is the MBWA getting out ahead of this? And what could lower recommended allowances mean for your members?

[00:41:14] National Beer: Well, it's interesting because, you know, when you look at some of the things that are being proposed and some of the things, and I'm going to talk, we're going to talk about this, obviously, at the convention. You know, what we've seen is a group of activist researchers kind of organize and work to influence this process. Some of these same interests were active in the World Health Organization, which, believe it or not, last year in 2023 adopted language that includes, there is no safe level, and I'll do air quotes for that, of alcohol consumption, and that flies in the face of 40 years of peer-reviewed research that talks about the fact that moderate alcohol consumption can be part of an active lifestyle. And you're right about the guidance, and it's important that we understand what the current dietary guidelines say, that two drinks a day for men and one drink a day for women is a not-to-exceed recommendation. It is not a recommendation that go forth and have two drinks a day. That is not what it is. It is a not-to-exceed recommendation, and it is one of those things where this process, I think, has been corrupted by these activist researchers. There has been a second Dietary Guidelines Review Panel that has been kind of set up off to the side in addition to the National Academy of Sciences, which is who has done this work in years past, and The good news is, Jess, is that a number of policymakers have raised serious objections. We have everybody from the oversight committees—this is both parties, leaders, Democratic and Republican—in the Senate and the House that have criticized this process. They're concerned about a lack of transparency. We also even have the lawmaker that helped create the Interagency Coordinating Committee on the Prevention of Underage Drinking. That's a big mouthful, but that's the group that's been corrupted. The group was set up to study underage drinking And it has indeed grabbed the mantle, and I think in a very controversial way, tried to make dietary guidelines and chronic and acute alcohol research part of its purview. The legislator that actually authored that legislation back nearly 15 years ago has weighed in and expressed her opposition and said, that is not what this was organized to do. The whole notion of underage drinking is very different than the effect of alcohol use and misuse on adults. But back to what we're doing, one of the things that's happening is we're collaborating, and we've got a really unusual kind of—I'm very proud of this effort to date, where the distillers and the vintners and the brewers and the distributors and the retailers are all singing from the same piece of music. And the group is absolutely working and coordinating to address these challenges. One of the big challenges has been an uptick in the volume of criticism from the media. And interestingly, we're beginning to see some of that turn, and we're beginning to see some more fair and balanced coverage. And one of the things that the New York Times has kind of been just relentless in their criticism of alcohol But they have, in the last 60 days, on two or three different occasions, introduced the whole idea of relative risk. And relative risk goes to, okay, so let's say that you're an alcohol consumer. And let's say that this takes, you know, this creates problems for you as it relates to your mortality. But one of the pieces that ran in June, you know, the researcher said, you know, we could be talking about, you know, a difference in how long you live, you know, a few months. And that's a relative risk that I think consumers and Americans need to be aware of.

[00:45:11] Justin Kendall: One thing that Jim Cook recently discussed during the Barclays Consumer Conference was he said that some of this has been a self-inflicted wound to the industry because the major brewers used to fund some of this research, and they've pulled back from doing that. Why did that happen, you know, and how did we get to this point?

[00:45:35] National Beer: I don't want to quarrel with Jim on that necessarily, but, you know, a lot of industries have been criticized for what was called an academia-directed research. And I think that that was part of some of the decision that maybe manufacturers made. I don't know as it relates to whether or not they were continuing to engage in industry-funded research. But the facts are that the research hasn't substantially changed. And other than, you know, a handful of activist researchers, the risks around alcohol remain. They're well known. The 2020 guidance, you know, indeed talks about harm from use. It talks that for some consumers, alcohol can be a carcinogen. I mean, it provides a warning for the consumer, and it also provides some guidance about how you might consume these products responsibly. I don't want to address what the manufacturers funded or didn't fund, but it is one of those things where I think that the industry's behavior as it relates to things like fighting drunk driving and fighting underage consumption, And the fact that we've made progress on both of those demonstrates that the industry is responsible. And I think what we're interested in is ensuring that when it comes to this process, that it's transparent, and that it's scientific, it is peer-reviewed, and that it is in keeping with what 40 years of research has said.

[00:47:07] Justin Kendall: So what's at risk here? What's on the line for your members if these recommended allowances come in lower?

[00:47:15] National Beer: I think part of this is the ongoing challenge that we've got to ensure that the industry is encouraging, you know, and I've used this line before, but we don't need people to drink more. We need more people to drink a little. And what we don't want is we don't want misguided and incomplete research to influence that policy. And I don't know what the practical reality of it is and what the government's dietary guidelines say, but I do know that this can give rise to all kinds of other challenges from a policy and from a regulatory standpoint if these misguided, incomplete notions are advanced. I think what we're trying to do is encourage more transparency and encourage more process that follows the spirit and the letter of what government has done and is doing and has done for 40 years.

[00:48:14] Justin Kendall: One of the things that we did want to ask about is, you know, I just got back from the Molson Coors meeting and there was a heavy push on an innovation slate directed at the convenience channel that are 8% ABV products. We've seen a proliferation of these products within convenience and moving into grocery, and it's been a growth area for the industry. So I guess, you know, when we look at this, how do you approach the proliferation of these things with your members and still, you know, tout that responsibility message and, you know, walk that sort of thin line?

[00:48:56] National Beer: It's one of those things where the whole notion of education and awareness has never been more important. You know, everything from the label and helping consumers understand that this product may be higher in concentration of alcohol is absolutely critical. I mean, one of the things that's happened from a marketplace standpoint when it comes to craft beer is many, or I would say most of the more craft-centric retail on-premise accounts, you know, are including a whole bunch of other information about their beers as a selling point for that particular brand or varietal. And that includes ABV. So I can envision a dynamic where that's something that the consumer is made aware of. I do think that when we look at some of the brand successes that we've seen, I mentioned the Voodoo franchise earlier, I think the consumer's well aware of the fact that that product is higher concentration of alcohol. Some of this innovation, Justin, is going right at the core of trying to be relevant to the consumer. It's trying to give that consumer what it is that they're after. And, you know, if that is less liquid and, you know, a higher concentrated version of alcohol in a beer product, and if that net-net makes that product more competitive with spirits or with wine, you know, that's not necessarily a negative. But we've got to do it responsibly, and we've got to make sure that the retailer's aware so that they can make the consumer aware.

[00:50:20] Justin Kendall: Yeah, I think it gets a little challenging because a lot of these products come in the larger format cans, singles, and then right there, you know, it feels counterintuitive to the notion that beer is the drink of moderation.

[00:50:36] National Beer: Yeah, and we're still talking about products that are less concentrated when it comes to alcohol than wine or spirits. And you're right. I'm not quarreling with you at all. I mean, that responsibility is there. And I do think that, you know, we've watched over the years, distributors work with retailers to address those concerns. But look, some of this is economic. I mean, we are aware of the fact that that consumer is getting squeezed like never before. And that inflation pressure, you know, is especially hitting working men and women hard. You know, obviously fuel goes up and down, but at the end of the week, if somebody's got a hundred bucks and they need to fill up their truck, and they want to get an affordable luxury, which includes a beer or alcohol beverage product, we want to have a market that's responsive to that consumer. So I think we keep our eye on it. I think we talk about it. I think we make people aware of it. But it's also one of those things where we want to, if there's a market for it, we want to responsibly be able to respond to that.

[00:51:42] Jessica Infante: Along with consumers or suppliers addressing some of these consumer changes with those products, they're also getting into non-beer products and MBWA kind of, you reimagined yourselves a little bit a few years ago and you're now for America's beer and beverage distributors. How has that kind of non-beer product space, how has that changed for your members right now? How important is that business and how did you envision kind of advocating for that still in these years to come?

[00:52:12] National Beer: Sure. It's been amazing to see some of the brands that have been built by beer distributors. One of the things that's been frustrating is to watch distributors go out there and seek and get the distribution for non-alcohol beverages and go out there and build the product, and then only to have it bought by a larger drinks manufacturer or You know, the product goes down the street or the manufacturer takes up distribution on its own. You know, we're talking about legacies of Red Bull and Monster, but talking more recent history around, you know, brands like Celsius and most recently Prime Hydration, which came on like a house of fire. And I think the facts will show that distribution was not the problem with that brand. The brand's got all kinds of other challenges, but probably if they'd have stuck to their guns and kept the product in the distributor's channels, it would be a more successful story. So some of it has been a mixed bag as far as its success. I do think that manufacturers still want on beer trucks without question. And I think that distributors are responding to changes in the consumer's preference to meet those needs. And I think we're very bullish on this big picture in the long term. But make no mistake about it, you know, the lack of good contracts, these are not alcohol products, so they're typically not subject to a beer franchise law. You know, it creates less certainty as it relates to the investment in those brands. So, you know, it's not without challenge. But, you know, the other thing we've seen as it relates to kind of that expansion for beer and beverage is the number of our members that have gotten into the spirits business. You know, we had a major manufacturer just 18 months ago, 19 months ago, move their distribution and beer distributors ended up with part of the Sazerac book. in 18 states. And I think that's ended up being, I think, very successful for that manufacturer as they're watching beer distributors be able to execute in different channels, being able to meet the needs of the marketplace. In some places, that includes grocery and convenience. But I'm bullish. I'm bullish on the future of beer, but I'm also bullish on the future of non-beer products for our members.

[00:54:33] Craig Purser: So one other non-beer product that's been buzzed about a lot lately is Delta 9 THC infused beverages. The legislative landscape around them is shifting wildly from day to day. It's honestly, it's a lot to keep up with. How are you approaching these products with your members?

[00:54:51] National Beer: Yeah, you know, it's hard to believe we've been talking about cannabis related products a dozen years now. I mean, as Colorado was the first state to come online with THC products being approved, you know, we've watched marketplaces develop around medical and adult use for cannabis. And interestingly, the Farm Bill of 2018 is what kind of is given rise, kind of the Farm Bill plus science, I guess, of intoxicating hemp beverages. This has been a challenge, and I think it's been a challenge for a number of states as they've wrestled with whether to remain silent, whether to prohibit these products, or whether to try to build a regulatory structure that works. Interestingly, as we talk to, and we talk to the Hemp Beverage Alliance frequently, as a matter of fact, we were together with them last month in person for a meeting. They will be at our convention. We will not have their products on the show floor because we don't have insurance for those products. Interestingly, in talking to some of the manufacturers, they've run into the same problem when it comes to exhibiting at their own shows. These are not unique challenges, but I think as they make the case to be on the shelves next to alcohol products, and as they make the case, and I believe they're honest, that they want to go through, in many places, they want to go through the beer channels for distribution. They want to be where we are. I think the conversation needs to get real serious real quickly about the whole notion of, are you willing to submit yourself to the same regulatory principles that we use for beer and alcohol beverages. I think that's especially important. We want to make sure that the product's integrity is what it says it is. They need to be able to stipulate that and stand behind it. It needs to be age-restricted, obviously, but also the whole idea of separation of the tiers in alcohol Has worked very well because it helps a that transparency and that accountability for the product. I was talking to 1 of their their folks recently and they had no idea that we have. beer product recalls every few years and folks don't read about it because this system is very successful in identifying the product and getting it out of the marketplace. So there's a whole host of beer-related regulations that I think if folks want to be on our trucks and they want to be part of that community and our members are interested in carrying these products, we've got to get real serious about them following those regulations.

[00:57:33] Justin Kendall: Well, Craig, this has been great, and we're looking forward to seeing you in just, well, a few days by the time this airs. So thanks for doing this. It's always our pleasure.

[00:57:45] National Beer: Well, I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in San Diego. And like I said, Justin at the top, where it's always 75 and sunny, right?

[00:57:53] Justin Kendall: You should come over to our pregame happy hour, too. We're going to be over at the Lost Abbey's church before your party kicks off.

[00:58:01] National Beer: All right, well, I will try to come by and see you guys, but I look forward to seeing you guys as you're doing your recording adjacent as our media partner this year. We're excited about that.

[00:58:12] Justin Kendall: Yeah, we're stoked to be doing that as well. That's our show for this week. Thanks to Jess and Zoe for all they do. Thanks to Craig Purser for hanging out with us. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.