Brewbound Podcast: CODO Design on The Beer Branding Trends to Watch in 2022

[00:00:00] Jessica Infante: What are the Beer Branding trends to watch in 2022 and beyond? We'll talk about it next on the Brewbound Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. My name is Justin Kendall and I'm the editor of Brewbound and I am joined by Jessica Infante, the managing editor of Brewbound. What's up, Jess? Not much high from Fort Collins. This is going to be so confusing to folks because I introduce you in the middle of our conversation with the team at Kodo Design, who are on this week's podcast discussing their Beer Branding trends piece, which you were in. And here you are at the top of the show.

[00:00:47] Isaac Arthur: So yes, it's just let's just let people think that I like appare in and out of podcasts.

[00:00:52] Jessica Infante: Yeah, you just time hop.

[00:00:54] Isaac Arthur: I wish I could.

[00:00:55] Jessica Infante: Well, someone who isn't time hopping is Zoe Licata. She is also here. Brewbound reporter extraordinaire, Generation Z consultant. What other titles do you have at this point, Zoe?

[00:01:09] Cody Fague: All around excellent human being. Thank you.

[00:01:11] Jessica Infante: All right. I guess you can just mic drop it from there.

[00:01:14] Cody Fague: Thank you. Harry Styles super fan. True Bostonian disregard my place of birth. have identified as a Bostonian. Retired ice cream slinger?

[00:01:26] Isaac Arthur: Yes.

[00:01:26] Jessica Infante: Ooh, man.

[00:01:27] Isaac Arthur: Thankfully, retired ice cream slinger. What are you happier to be retired from, QAnon research or ice cream?

[00:01:38] Cody Fague: Both jobs require dealing with a cast of characters and like general disdain for the human population. I think I'd have to say ice cream's a little better than QAnon. Yeah, I think that's probably an easier decision. Very polite of you, by the way.

[00:01:57] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Well, hopefully ice cream isn't triggering for you at this point.

[00:02:01] Cody Fague: I still am obsessed with it even after however many years.

[00:02:05] Jessica Infante: Well, maybe we should talk to our friends at Boston Beer for when we hold Brew Talks on July 27th here live and in person in Boston and see if we can get some ice cream or like some type of ice cream truck over at the Jamaica Plain Brewery. What do you guys think about that?

[00:02:22] Isaac Arthur: We can get that from JPLix. We could.

[00:02:27] Jessica Infante: And then it will become triggering.

[00:02:29] Cody Fague: Yeah, that's when we might be crossing the line. But I'm all for a generic ice cream truck, which I didn't realize were like a real thing that actually drive around neighborhoods until about like three or four years ago. Wow, I grew up in the woods like we don't have ice cream trucks. Our street is a dirt road that no one goes down. I knew they set up at beaches or like in like a park. I didn't know they actually still drive around with the music and stop for kids.

[00:03:01] Isaac Arthur: Have you ever like purchased ice cream from a roving truck?

[00:03:04] Cody Fague: I did for the first time a few years ago. Yes, it was really exciting. We should make happen for you. Yeah, I was. I was like a kid. I was very, very excited.

[00:03:13] Jessica Infante: Well, this has gone off the rails as we talk about ice cream and Zoe's resume, but we are holding brew talks live here in Boston, July 27th. By the time you listen to this, you might be able to get tickets at brewbound.com. The website could, should, probably might be up. We'll see. Planning a couple conversations, networking and beer. So if you're in Boston on the 27th, come hang out with us. That's 27th of July. We'll have Dogfish founder Sam Calagione there and Dogfish Head is one of our presenting sponsors. With that plug out of the way, let's get to the news of last week. And really, I'm not going to use the Q word, and that's not QAnon, but it wasn't a real busy week last week. One thing that we did hop on was a little bit of news in the modern times, Maui. purchase auction saga. And what we found out was that Maui had offered a stocking horse bid of $7.62 million for Modern Times. And that's still up in the air, whether they're going to get the brewery or not for that, that the auction needs to take place. what was setting up to be an expedited process got slowed down a little bit by Live Oak Bank, which filed a court filing as a third party. And basically at issue was they said this ex parte order that had been filed was trying to say that the auction would be free and clear, basically all the debts at that point. Am I getting that right, Zoe?

[00:04:53] Cody Fague: Yes, the ex parte, which was like on behalf of both Modern Times and their receiver and California Bank and Trust, who's originally started this whole receiver process, had said, yes, whoever bought it would not have to carry over those debts. And Live Oak was like, excuse me, wait a minute. We have not agreed to any of this. modern times, not only like we've given them several loans, but we also should have priority over their Anaheim facility, the things that are inside that facility as well. If those are sold, like we should be kind of first steps to the money of that. And so they filed saying, you don't really have the jurisdiction to say they are clear of these debts. And so they withdrew the ex parte.

[00:05:39] Jessica Infante: And appears Justin if I'm correct that they have filed a new one possibly they did on June 3rd they filed a new ex parte order there's a court hearing that was scheduled for. June 6th in the afternoon. So by the time you hear this, it's already happened and we'll have to report on what we find out about that after the fact. So stay tuned to Brewbound.com for more on that. And in other lawsuit news, it seems that the Corngate has sort of kind of closed, if not. Kind of.

[00:06:17] Isaac Arthur: So Corngate, which you may recall from 50 million years ago in super bold I couldn't even if I don't even know. I know 2020 was live.

[00:06:35] Jessica Infante: OK.

[00:06:37] Isaac Arthur: But anything else, I'm out.

[00:06:39] Jessica Infante: All right.

[00:06:39] Isaac Arthur: Yeah. So back in when the Bud Light Kingdom was still a thing, which I quite enjoyed the Bud Light Kingdom. They had a lot going on there. Well, you could use that for a lot of stuff. There was a commercial in which the Bud Light King receives a shipment of corn syrup and then he goes out among the kingdom to visit the Miller Light Castle and the Coors Light Castle to be like, hey, I received your corn syrup. This took us down a legal rabbit hole that went on for three plus years, and it has finally come to an end, kind of. So Molson Coors, then Miller Coors, filed a deceptive advertising lawsuit against Anheuser-Busch, InBev. They traded barbs back and forth in various courts, and they each won points at various points with different judges. At one point, there was an injunction against Bud Light, and they had like a set amount of time to remove the packaging from stores that made various claims about corn syrup. And finally, a judge has ruled in AB's favor, no wrongdoing, case dismissed. So now, throughout that lengthy, lengthy legal battle, through all the discovery that went on, lots of marketing materials were unearthed. And AB is interested in filing a counter lawsuit now that Molson Corey's misappropriated trade secrets during the process. So not the first lawsuit has been closed out. That lawsuit is able to start and it does sound like AB is interested in doing that. So the kernels of Corngate will continue.

[00:08:04] Jessica Infante: Oh God. One of the things that surprised me was the judge in the case said something to the effect of, the court would be remiss not to note that Miller Coors has now unearthed overwhelming documentation of AB's intent to mislead consumers as to the presence of corn syrup in the finished products, despite knowing that none or virtually none were present. And this is the judge that ultimately rolled against Molson Coors.

[00:08:33] Isaac Arthur: Right. I mean, I didn't go to law school. I don't know. But now those two things seem at odds with one another.

[00:08:39] Jessica Infante: Yeah, I'm sure there's more to this. And of course, this is not over.

[00:08:45] Isaac Arthur: It is not. We'll see. TBD.

[00:08:49] Jessica Infante: Zoe, one of the things that you covered for this week is Cowan's take on Boston Beer. Tell us what they had to say there because it wasn't all great, right? They lowered their estimates and they say Boston Beer's guidance needs to come down.

[00:09:07] Cody Fague: Yeah, yeah, they basically said they've been increasingly skeptical that Boston beer has been able to will be able to meet its guidance for this year, which they've held at between four and 10% growth. And this quote that I pulled from it. They said, while we acknowledge Boston beer share gains in the category throughout the year category growth has come in below management's expectations and reminds us of the setup for Boston beer shares in 2015 when valuation became stretched due to overly high expectations for the growth of Boston beer cider business. So they are basically concerned that Boston Beer is overestimating what they will be able to do once again and they have encouraged them to adjust their guidance. Boston Beer, we previously talked about this because Boston Beer had in its Q1 earnings call had said that They reported 21% decline in Q1, like it wasn't a great quarter for them, but they were still holding on to their original guidance. They were confident that even if their seltzer did not grow, if they even had declines in their hard seltzer, that they could still meet that guidance. And Cowan's saying, we don't see that happening.

[00:10:22] Jessica Infante: Yeah, that's one of the things Boston Beer's execs have been pretty steadfast that they're not going to need truly to grow. They're pretty confident that Twisted Tea and the other products can sort of uplift the company to growth this year.

[00:10:36] Isaac Arthur: One thing that I would really love for Boston Beer's executive team to do is stop making these predictions because this is how they get into trouble. Have we not learned that they can't help it? I just I hate to see people making the same mistake.

[00:10:51] Jessica Infante: Yeah, well, we'll find out when they report earnings next, which is got to be coming up in a month or two. We'll keep our eye out.

[00:10:59] Isaac Arthur: Yeah. They're usually like mid July.

[00:11:01] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Last one was April. Well, that's the news as of now. And Zoe and Jess are going to be reporting from the road this week. Zoe, where in the world will you be or where are you by the time this comes out?

[00:11:18] Cody Fague: I will be as of the day after recording this in New Orleans for the first time for the annual Discus Conference. So I'm headed to the spirits world for a little bit. New territory.

[00:11:31] Jessica Infante: How spooky.

[00:11:33] Cody Fague: Yeah. Perfect location for some spookiness.

[00:11:36] Jessica Infante: Yeah. So look out for RTD spirits coverage from Zoe. And Jess, where in the world are you now?

[00:11:44] Isaac Arthur: I am in Fort Collins Colorado for encompasses annual connect conference they were kind enough to invite me to be guest speaker on a panel about the changing demographics of drinkers it never astounds me that people ask me to do these things because, in my head i'm. kind of a fool, but hey, I'll show up and talk. And they've also kindly invited me to do the Q&A for one of their main speakers this week, who is Terrell Davis, former Super Bowl MVP and NFL Hall of Famer, now the head of a CBD water brand. And we'll see.

[00:12:23] Jessica Infante: I heard he's popular with the Muppets.

[00:12:26] Isaac Arthur: He is. Look up his Sesame Street appearance. You will not be sad. One of my hard hitting questions for him later this week is what is Cookie Monster's second favorite kind of cookie? I'm just kidding. That's totally not going to happen. I would absolutely not get invited back. I have questions for him about his business and occasional football, but you know, once I caught an interception at sorority powder puff, so I kind of know how he feels to be a hall of famer. Yeah, you guys are on the same level.

[00:12:53] Jessica Infante: Very similar experiences.

[00:12:55] Isaac Arthur: Definitely, for sure.

[00:12:58] Jessica Infante: Yeah. All right. Well, let's get to our conversation with Isaac Arthur and Cody Feig from Kodo Design. They're going to tell us all about Beer Branding trends for 2022 and beyond. So let's get to it. Over the last six years, Kodo Design in Indianapolis has released an annual branding trends review representing what's shaping the beer industry from Beer Branding and positioning standpoint. The 2022 edition is online now. Here today to discuss are Isaac Arthur. Welcome, Isaac.

[00:13:32] Arthur and Cody: Hey, thanks, Justin.

[00:13:34] Jessica Infante: Good to see you and nice Justin. Hey folks. So the founders of Cotto Design. you both here and let's j a lot to digest in this y trend issue. If you had t are your one or two bigg year's edition.

[00:13:57] Arthur and Cody: Hmm. The I'll be as vague as possible. I think that we bracketed the entire piece into three or four buckets, and that might be the best way to answer it. I think reinvention would be one. How does the industry kind of cope with all the different competing energies that are happening in the space? Convergence, as Brewbound talks about a lot. How do we come out of COVID and figure out where we go from here? Second part would be beyond beer. We're seeing that as a major component here as well. So what are these different products that breweries are offering? Brand architecture is related to that very heavily, at least in terms of what we're doing in our work. So helping breweries manage these beyond beer transitions and getting into that space. And then that's actually it. Anything else, Cody?

[00:14:44] Google Play: If I had to paint in broad swashes, yeah, I'd say that was it. We kind of got toward the end of Beer Branding trends piece. just kind of a overview of some visual stuff that we're seeing in the industry. But as far as like broad swaths, I think reinvention, grand architecture and kind of the beyond beer space has been the most interesting for us this year. So we mostly focus on those things.

[00:15:08] Jessica Infante: Are you both excited that we're finally getting away with just white cans for hard seltzers?

[00:15:15] Arthur and Cody: Now we can break it. I remember when Wild Basin came out and everyone freaked out that that would not, you know, read as a seltzer. And we, we were, I think we, and every design firm in the space, we're trying to do non-white can stuff for seltzers for a long time, but the category is moving so fast and you just had to make it look like that to kind of communicate to customers on shelf that it is a seltzer.

[00:15:36] Google Play: And let's, let's be dead set clear on what we're talking about. White Claw was moving very fast. So I think people saw the volume that was happening with, you know, three years ago or whatever it was with white call sales, and they could not get that out of their heads. That means our cans have to be white, right? Without paying attention to something like, yeah, but how many seltzers on the market, like what share is white? Is it 100%? Designers, marketing people, anyone who pays attention to the industry will see that as an opportunity, but I think people just couldn't get past those numbers at that time. And then now we are. Yay. Yeah.

[00:16:08] SPEAKER_??: Yay.

[00:16:09] Cody Fague: Yeah, very happy we've moved past that. You mentioned brand architecture, and we're going to dive in a little bit deeper to that later. But craft breweries, and particularly legacy brands, have been focusing on it and creating more of this house of brands rather than just being them themselves. Have we reached a point, do you think, where consumers aren't necessarily concerned about who the producer is or the parent is, and they more care about those brands?

[00:16:36] Arthur and Cody: At least for beer, I think they still do care where it comes from. I think that the brand architecture conversation is important when you're launching either two things beyond beer, certainly, because that can kind of reposition and shift what your parent brand stands for. But number two, I mean, just talk about like new Belgium for a minute. I mean, the idea, and you guys have talked about this at length on the podcast before, but can a legacy brewery credibly play in this space where there's, you know, like the 22 year old IPA drinker that wants. only the newest, latest XYZ thing. And I think we're seeing that really well from legacy breweries that understand that. And so that's why you're moving, whether it's a true house of brands or in that nuanced area of like an endorsed brand or sub-brand, you're seeing breweries come to market with things specifically tailored to a new audience. And that's really, really smart. And it's working brilliantly too. Like we're seeing, we have small breweries, small meaning like 2000 barrel a year breweries that are employing the same, the same strategy. So it works really well.

[00:17:35] Google Play: The seltzer thing has been really interesting because I think, you know, one of the core aspects of craft beer that at least was so attractive to me was that Not only do you care about the people that this is coming from, but you really care and you might know them on a first name basis and you can go watch them make the stuff that you love. And that's such a huge part of craft beer. And then here comes seltzer eating away whatever percentage of the market with people who do not care about that at all. It does not matter where it comes from. What matters is that it's the hot social thing. I think that's thrown a lot of us for a tizzy, which, you know, I understand that because it's frustrating, right? It's like you kind of find out that a segment of your customers are really just there because it was hot and like socially the, you know, thumbs up thing to do. But, you know, as far as craft beer goes, I think that knowing who and where something comes from is core to that. And so if you're interested in craft beer for the reasons, you know, some of the tenants of what the craft beer market is all about, I would say that, you know, there's an aspect where that's never going to go away. When we look at brand architecture, that actually can present a lot of really good opportunities to take advantage of that too. You know, someone might try something new and weird that you're doing. Because they know you and they know that oh that makes sense or at least that would be interesting or I trust them. So brand architecture can work for you in that way. And it's not necessarily the name of the game so obscure or confused where the product is coming from. But it depends.

[00:18:58] Jessica Infante: We're going to talk a lot about Beyond Beer in a little bit, but one of the things that I'm curious about on this sort of conversation that we're having right now is, have your views on this sort of evolved from previous thoughts that you guys had? Because we're seeing so many more craft breweries get into these Beyond Beer areas, whether it's seltzers or canned cocktails or hard kombucha or whatever it may be. So have those views on naming conventions sort of evolved for you guys?

[00:19:28] Arthur and Cody: Yeah, I mean, every day. I mean, I remember it was maybe late 18, 19, Cody, when we started fielding just a ton of seltzer inquiries. And that was back when we would talk to breweries and they would, they would almost like whisper that they were going to put out a hard seltzer. They weren't really excited about the idea. And that shifted, you know, abruptly to where people are now very proudly putting it out. And I think I bring that up only because that actually seems to kind of open the door for all of these things. I mean, from a consumer standpoint, consumers now recognize that breweries are putting out all sorts of non-beer things and then breweries are doing it as well. So our opinion doesn't matter. I think that what we see breweries doing has been kind of fully embracing this idea, but then trying to make sure that they're doing it in a way that doesn't, you know, hurt their parent brand and also sets that new thing up for success out of the gate.

[00:20:17] Cody Fague: So we can jump into kind of that first bucket that you guys put in for Trends We're Seeing, which is that reinvention bucket. And it's the idea of rebranding has been something that you guys have talked about for a few years now, and it continued this year. Are there any particular kinds of breweries that are rebranding or refreshing their packaging that you've noticed or reason why they're deciding to take that route?

[00:20:41] Arthur and Cody: We have rebranded in the last year, a brewery that is about 2000 barrels in production. And then also one that landed in the top 50 from the BA. So we're not going to name that one yet because that work isn't out yet. It really breaks my heart that I'm on this channel and I can't say that, but it's all across the board. I think the one thing and Cody jump in here if I'm getting off track, but I'll say that rebranding is very rarely a negative thing anymore. When we, we deal with it, it's not, I mean, sales might be flat, but that's, that's the thing that a lot of breweries are dealing with. It's very rarely anything like aggressively negative. It's more, you know, we've outstripped kind of what our, what our previous stuff looked like. Our messaging, our positioning have changed. We're seeing this new path where we want to take our brewery. Maybe that's driven by coming out of COVID. Maybe that's driven by other market forces. And we want to make sure that we are in place to where our team, our community, everyone kind of understands what we stand for and where we're going. So that usually frames why we take on rebrands. Cody, you're the creative director that deals with these projects every day. I mean, sorry, executive creative director. Thank you. Any other kind of points there that you hear again and again?

[00:21:51] Google Play: I think a lot of those guys sort of in the middle, like the smallish to mediumish guys have been left in a really awkward place. We've been talking about this for a couple years now, but you have these guys that just opened up down the street two weeks ago. They're cutting sales away from you because they've got, you know, a cool street team and sexy labels and all this stuff. And you can't really win the volume game way on the other side of that, where more established breweries are able to you know, like, look at what New Belgium has done with Voodoo Ranger and that whole Voodoo line. Like, they've had years to figure that out and really make that work. I don't know smaller guys who can do that. So we're in a really weird place there where we have to remind people that we exist. We have to get people excited about buying our products. And we have to make sure we're in front of people. But we're using artwork in some cases that's 20 plus years old. That gets really tough and it gets really awkward and I think like to usually there's a team that's on that wasn't around when that stuff was created. So when it gets into the really kind of spiritual goofy like let's talk about the brand DNA stuff. They don't know why decisions were made. They don't know you know at its root. Why does this stuff look the way it looks and why are we talking to who we are talking to and what is it that we want them to do. So we see a lot of people searching for answers there when they're looking at either a rebrand or interestingly packaging refreshes to which which is a kind of another avenue to discuss there. Yeah.

[00:23:17] Cody Fague: I know you guys talked about it on your own podcast, but what is the kind of ratio you're seeing of existing breweries looking for these rebrands or even their own refresh versus kind of new guys coming in?

[00:23:29] Arthur and Cody: This is just for Kodo, but our inquiries are like two or three established breweries looking for help, kind of refreshing something to one new brewery brand. Yeah. It's been that way since like 17, 18. I mean, from 2010 to 17, obviously it was like all breweries and planning new folks. And then it's been really steady rebrand since then.

[00:23:49] Jessica Infante: How often do companies really need to consider brand refreshes or even just a re-examination?

[00:23:57] Arthur and Cody: I don't know that we have a hard and fast rule. I do think that we've seen Cody was this. It wasn't in this piece. It was in our 21 review where we talked about packaging refreshes, kind of, we liken them to website revamps. Typically you redo a website every four ish, five years, just because technologies improve your business has changed enough. It's just a thing you do. And we're having breweries reach out to us. This is just for packaging refreshes, not rebrands, which is a very different thing. They're kind of thinking in that same terms, like three to four years of, we need to kind of get something different that pops on shelf. The billboards different that we've released these new extensions. We need to figure out how they play into it. That's not a satisfactory answer, but I would say it should be something that you're continually monitoring and thinking about. And I would try to rebrand not that frequently. And maybe packaging refreshes could kind of be something you do more tactically kind of in the interim.

[00:24:48] Jessica Infante: just so our listeners know that Zoe and I weren't cutting Jess out of the conversation the entire time. She just showed up and popped into our conversation and we're gonna, you know, welcome her in now. So, Justin Ponte is here, everybody.

[00:25:06] Isaac Arthur: Hello! Wow, I picked the best time to hop in, I guess. Yeah. I just got to my destination. I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado for a conference. And this podcast, Mike and I went through a lot at Newark Airport Security this morning, so I was not missing this. Apologies for being late, but I was determined to make all of that worth it.

[00:25:29] Jessica Infante: We're happy to have you here. And I want to circle back to something that we were talking about a little bit earlier was brand approach. And one of the brands that has done this beautifully has been New Belgium with Voodoo Ranger. And it's got this illustrated skeleton ranger character. And now all of a sudden, I know that, you know, New Belgium wasn't the first brewery to put a cartoon character, but they've very successfully done that here. Now we're seeing a lot of copycats of that sort of particular approach. How would you advise someone who wants to go down that route?

[00:26:09] Arthur and Cody: from a just putting a cartoon character on there from the brand architecture standpoint, from brand architecture, more so than that.

[00:26:16] Jessica Infante: But I mean, I guess that's sort of the linchpin, you know, is there's this overall character. So if somebody is coming to you, and they want to do like cartoon character on package similar to this, you know, how would you advise them?

[00:26:30] Google Play: The first thing I would say is you know a character fine doesn't need to be a cartoon because there's 50 other types of characters that we could do. There's things we could do that aren't characters but kind of play that role. And it's kind of interesting. I'm like 90 percent sure you can find me on record saying what is this like you know three or four years ago. What is this food ranger stuff. I don't get this. I don't understand this at all. Because at the time, I didn't, I didn't see what they were trying to do. And maybe, you know, maybe honestly, they at the time, they didn't exactly know what they were doing with it. But they've obviously, what they've done is they've taken a brand that had been around for a long while, that had not gone stale necessarily, but didn't really mean much to new consumers. And they found a way to connect with newer, younger consumers, and to break into a segment of craft beer that has a lot of energy around like a funky skeleton cartoon. And they just were there and did that at the right time and made that right move. So my question for someone looking to pursue something like that would be, you know, what is your situation? And are you a brand like New Belgium who needs to find a way to kind of freshen up and diversify who you're talking to and who you're connecting with? Or did you just see New Belgium do this thing and now you want to do it and you don't really know the ins and outs of it? So that's the first thing I would want to unpack. And then beyond that, again, it's like the actual execution. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are going to put skeletons on something because they saw skeletons and that sells. Also, New Belgium, not the first people to put skeletons on a craft beer either. So that's something that's going to happen. People are going to take it too literally and not try to take it apart and put it back together in their fashion, to their brand. That's going to happen. I would just say to someone who wanted to do something like that is, well, now wait, let's slow down and think about why they did it. And let's figure out if that makes sense for you guys.

[00:28:17] Cody Fague: As we move on to this next bucket you guys had, which was packaging. And within that, you noted that there's a lot of breweries who are diversifying the amount or the different kinds of package options they have for some of their brands. So they might have a 12 ounce six pack and then also a 16 ounce four pack. And then maybe they're also doing some single serve options, maybe like a 19.2. So how frequently are you seeing clients looking to do this?

[00:28:45] Arthur and Cody: Yeah, this isn't anything new, obviously. But what is new from our standpoint is we're talking to smaller breweries that are also employing the same strategy or tactic, I guess. So a lot of conversations about single serve to drive trial because it's like cheaper. You can put it in different venues. C-Store is hard to do for a smaller brewery, but we're having some of our like kind of medium-ish size breweries that are trying to get into that channel. So that's really interesting. We're, we're working with more distributors as part of these projects as well, that are driving a lot of this change. So like, Hey, we want to, we want to have break off like single serve pieces we can do here. This concert venue really wants a 19 two or something like that, even larger in some cases. So yeah, again, not, not like a huge revelatory thing, but smaller breweries are doing it now, which is interesting.

[00:29:29] Google Play: It's also interesting seeing smaller guys go to market with like a 12 pack or a 15 pack or stuff that would have either been prohibitive from a back of house standpoint back in the day or just something that can be tough to keep up with volume wise. We're seeing people just do that now. I think part of that is what Isaac just mentioned. The kind of more open and communicative relationship people are having with distributors who need this stuff and want this stuff. And the more options you have there, the more attractive you're going to be to a distributor, at least in many cases, because then they know where to put your stuff. The aluminum shortage, this can crunch has been an interesting thing. Exploring different packaging formats for different types of either functional beers or more special one-offs or as people spin off into RTDs. Just having a different can profile on the shelf with that brand on it is an interesting thing that we've seen.

[00:30:22] Isaac Arthur: Cody, you mentioned 15 packs and I think that's really interesting because I feel like, you know, like founders all day was first in what, like 2015, 2016, and then everybody wanted to jump in. And then it felt to me, at least up in New England, that that kind of tapered off a little. What are you guys hearing from the rest of the country? Are 15 still really popular?

[00:30:40] Google Play: So we're about, let's see, we're in Indiana. We're about five to 10 years behind you, always. Some of our clients I mean it varies but you can make a map like time zones as far as what people are doing and what people aren't doing. What we're seeing in markets that are not as let's say advanced as the New England market is that distributors are asking for these things because we're just now getting there. We're catching up on that five year curve.

[00:31:02] Arthur and Cody: We don't see it much with our smaller clients. However, we won't name them because it's not out yet. But are we doing a 15 pack of 16 ounce cans right now? Didn't we start that like a couple of years ago? Whoa, that's so much beer. It's going to weigh 30 pounds.

[00:31:17] Jessica Infante: Did you guys ask them like what retailer wants this?

[00:31:21] Google Play: No, we know exactly what retailers want this. And if I could tell you details, which I cannot, it would make perfect sense. But that's a really good dovetail into my next point, which is it really matters what type of beer you're making. We're working with guys that are launching in the Jersey area, and they're really focused on well attenuated loggers, and that's what they want to do. The higher volume packs make a lot more sense for that because it's lower ABV, it's not torching your tongue with tons of acidity and hops. Not for everyone, right? So if you're making beer styles that are either more expensive per unit, or you just can't drink as many, especially as I age and my body falls apart and I can't consume alcohol like I used to, just physically I can't. the type of beer matters to and your audience matters a lot.

[00:32:06] Cody Fague: Is there anything like other tips or advice that you're giving to the people who are looking to diversify any other ways you're advising them to have the best approach to it?

[00:32:16] Arthur and Cody: It does kind of center on the beer itself to piggyback on what Cody just said. We're seeing a lot of people talk about, you know, craft, at least here, I'll just talk about like Midwest, like we've got to be in four packs, 16 ounce cans, but as people are making like less hot bomb beers and we're getting more and like sessionable stuff or not sessionable, more like loggers and more drinkable stuff. the format of going to 12-ounce six-pack is becoming more of a reality, even if you have traditionally done everything in a 16-ounce can. We're just seeing more breweries have these conversations versus just now, we'll put it all in a 16-ounce can because that's what our line will run. That's interesting, people thinking about their portfolio like that.

[00:32:54] Isaac Arthur: Glass, what do we think? We saw breweries getting rid of glass formats, but we know there was a lot of drama in the can market. How likely are we to see a glass resurgence?

[00:33:05] Google Play: We talk about this. Is it coming?

[00:33:07] Arthur and Cody: I don't know. We quickly predicted it, you know, like every other talking head and we're, we are so far incorrect. Uh, we haven't seen it in our work. That doesn't mean that it's not happening or going to happen, but people are still finding cans. And, uh, I don't see us going back to glass. I mean, I really don't just from cause as environmental concerns become a more important thing that the industry is kind of talking about and thankfully embracing as well. I think that aluminum will actually increase, but I don't know, in the, in the near term, who knows.

[00:33:38] Google Play: People are working themselves into a corner too as so many breweries lean into, and this is maybe a good segue into talking about lifestyle brands, but so many breweries are one way or another telling a story that's about buying our beer and taking it somewhere. Fine. You compare like a six pack of glass versus, you know, just a six pack of 12 ounce cans and the weight and the waste and managing all of that. Like it becomes a no brainer. Like nobody wants glass. Like why would I want to haul glass bottles around when I can just crush a can and, you know, throw it in the river or whatever. No, don't pollute, don't litter.

[00:34:12] Jessica Infante: Like nature intended, yeah.

[00:34:14] Google Play: Yeah, exactly. And let it return to nature, like, you know, we all know, no, recycle your cans. But the point is, why would anyone go back from that? You know, you can take that, we can take that to the racetrack here in town, we can take it, you know, when you're out on the lake. And as more and more breweries associate their brands with activities that involve going somewhere, I don't know, it seems like it's a tough thing to put the lid back on top of.

[00:34:36] Cody Fague: You mentioned the transition to more like lifestyle brands. I think you guys said it's more mainstream now is what it seems to be like. Can you dive a little bit deeper into what that trend is that you're seeing?

[00:34:49] Arthur and Cody: Why is it mainstream, Cody? I think you sound really excited about that.

[00:34:54] Google Play: You're going to see a little bit of our cynical streak come out here, maybe.

[00:34:58] Arthur and Cody: No, I'm not going to be cynical. It's hard to define. I'm dreading already having to define it like an asshole, but I think the reason it's kind of becoming mainstream is that we're having more breweries come to us, whether they're established or startups, using that language versus we've only heard this kind of mentioned a few times in the last 10, 12 years, 13 years now of business. So people understand what it is. And I think a lot of that comes from the success that we're seeing from what are very clearly lifestyle brands, like Liquid Death would be the, like probably the most headline grabbing one of the day. So a lifestyle brand, how it differs from a normal brand is that there's a very aspirational element to it, which means that by buying this brand, you can aspire to be, or it is an aspirational act of living these sorts of values that this brand kind of embodies. So there's number one, it's kind of an aspirational thing. It's hype-y because it generally, it's like a smaller subculture thing. So it's something that not everyone's into, which means there's a lot of demand. I think it can create a subculture, but generally I think the ones that we're seeing in the Bev-X space tap into an existing subculture. So what you're doing is you're tapping into an ardent fan base. So, and that could be around anything. When I was researching that newsletter and putting this together, Cody, Certainly you can run like outdoor sports and stuff like that. You can get into skating and things, but like I found that like there are lifestyle brands because of like everything being online and creating these CPG brands. Like I found a lifestyle brand for linemen, not football, but meaning line workers, like people that get up on power lines. And there's like a lifestyle shirt brand for those dudes and do that. And, and, uh, like, uh, forklift drivers, that's the most esoteric stuff. But that's indicative of what this is, because I think our point in this article was versus just kind of opening a tap room in a city full of tap rooms, if you can start kind of in a contract brewed way, speak to a very specific drill down audience, I think you're going to have a way to actually kind of build a very successful business moving forward. At least now with like 9,000 plus breweries out in the market, there will always be room for tap rooms or for local breweries. But I think this is an interesting, we're seeing some of the clients that we're working with that are trying to do this are doing it very well. Like the ideas aren't, you know, they check out, you know, we typically would kind of tell people if we think their ideas, maybe not so sound. Cody, have I missed anything or is that?

[00:37:19] Google Play: I think that's pretty fair, but now I want to ask, like, how far away do you think we are from like me going on Facebook and seeing an ad for a can of beer? That's like, my name's Cody. I'm a Capricorn. And I, And I bale hay and this is my beer. Like how far down in the rabbit hole are we going to get with this stuff?

[00:37:39] Arthur and Cody: I think that's what the metaverse was supposed to be, but I don't know if that's a real thing anymore.

[00:37:43] Jessica Infante: Sorry, not Facebook, meta. Yeah.

[00:37:46] Arthur and Cody: Yeah.

[00:37:46] Jessica Infante: There's a Beyond Beer product. I think it's called Mom Water and they each have names and personalities. So very close to getting Cody, I guess, if you're a mom.

[00:37:57] Google Play: Yeah, I mean, the Cody mom water will be out in Q2 probably, so check it out.

[00:38:04] Cody Fague: Look out for it, everybody. You guys went through a few of the different design trends that we're seeing. And we mentioned like skeletons and skulls earlier, but there's also like interactive packaging, a lot of illustrative art, some like 60s, 70s vibes. Are there any trends like on the design side that you guys are particularly excited about right now?

[00:38:25] Arthur and Cody: I'll give one. And then, uh, I think Cody answered this on our podcast. So I'll let him kind of give his answer, but the illustration stuff is just stunning. Looking at CPG packaging today is really fun. I mean, just the word, the level of design in this space is as good as it has ever been across beer, across Bev-Elk. The illustration work is just stunning. We're kind of tossing strategy and positioning stuff out the window and just talking about graphic design, but that's really beautiful. Cody, what's your, what's your favorite?

[00:38:55] Google Play: You can catch us really wringing our hands in this section of the Trends Review this year, particularly when we get to that 60s and 70s kind of vintage revival. We're seeing a lot of this stuff around any kind of lifestyle brand that's centered around bands and music or outdoor lifestyle and camping. There's this real return to this sort of earthy 60s and 70s flower child kind of thing by way of a more modern I don't know, an update. And that's happening in various ways. We're seeing that, but we kind of talk and go back and forth in the piece itself about, all right, well, just because we're seeing this everywhere, does it mean it's selling anything? Does it mean that, you know, just because we like it, like, does that matter at all? This has always been our problem with this section of the design trends, specifically the kind of surface level visual trends. It's a little tough for us to wrap our arms around how much of this isn't ending up in people's carts. Where is this coming from in people's minds? we know that roughly 85% of brewery owners are into the Grateful Dead. So some of that is not, it's not hard to, uh, to suss out like where that's coming from. But, you know, particularly when you get into talking about skulls and things like that, but I mean, like Isaac said, like there has never been a point in this industry where the graphic design, the formal execution of it has been so high across the board, which is really cool to see. Sometimes I feel like a redheaded stepchild in this industry, just because sometimes you'll see a brewery who like clearly has just had their cousin do their labels for 30 years. And you go, well, what am I even doing? If people don't want this, what's the point? But I would push back to that and say, you know, we've seen concrete examples that this industry is spending more money than it ever has on graphic artists, on folks who both help with strategy, but also just the formal execution of pieces, which is really, really exciting even just selfishly as a consumer. It's exciting.

[00:40:42] Arthur and Cody: Yeah, I see less stuff that makes me want to kind of run out into traffic these days. There's a lot of it, a lot of it back in like 13, 14.

[00:40:50] Isaac Arthur: Always an improvement. Well, I'm glad things seem to be going in the right direction. That's heartening. At Kodo, you guys define Beyond Beer as any beverage a craft brewer produces that is not beer. And we're now years into this, you know, the idea that everybody is diversifying their portfolio and trying to capture different drinkers and different occasions. Bar Watson, the Brewer's Association's chief economist, reported that one third of craft brewers are producing something in the beyond beer world. You're predicting that, quote, the vast majority of all breweries and BevElk brands offering products in multiple categories by 2030. So that's what we're looking toward. What's driving that expansion in beyond beer?

[00:41:33] Arthur and Cody: I think beers kind of flat. We've seen that for a while. So I think we're seeing smaller breweries see that as well. I think. So there's that side the production side. I think I think the other part in hard seltzer is the thing that blew the lid off of all this. But consumers are now kind of allowed. Beer drinkers are allowed to drink non-beer stuff. You know this is very anecdotal but I remember five or six years ago, my group would kind of, they would identify themselves. Like I drink, you know, IPA and bourbon and tequila and nothing else. And now you show up to a party and the cooler is full of all sorts of junk. So yeah, I think you're just allowed to enjoy other things now. And, and because you want to buy and support local, you look for those things from your local breweries. So I think there's an opportunity for breweries to move into that space. And that is, I think we joked about it in the piece. That's not really a hot take. I think that's just where we're going.

[00:42:21] Isaac Arthur: That makes a ton of sense. So in your own project inquiries, what are some of the most discussed areas of this field among suppliers?

[00:42:29] Arthur and Cody: And beyond beer specifically?

[00:42:31] Isaac Arthur: Yeah. I mean, if I have a thought, if I were a betting lady, but I want to see what you say.

[00:42:35] Arthur and Cody: this moment in time, N.A. is definitely like N.A. beer specifically is definitely a big one. But that that kind of came up, you know, over the last like six months, even I know that's been a thing, a conversation we've been having in the industry for a few years. But yeah, it seems like every other week we're getting one or two people reach out to discuss an N.A. beer. We touched on the piece in breaking out day partying. So this idea of like morning, opening up non-beer occasions that breweries can produce products for. That is more of our beverage work than breweries specific that are getting into that space. But I don't know if we want to wade into the weeds in that here, but black and white, it'd be NA beer and RTDs. I mean, seltzers still, I know that seltzers are dead, but seltzers are not dead. You know, we're still, still working with a lot of people that are making them. Cody, did I miss anything? We can talk about kombucha and coffee and stuff, but I don't know. Those aren't necessarily breweries.

[00:43:27] Google Play: I think folks kind of doing the crab walk into either spirits or spirit-like cocktails has been a thing every once in a while over the last two or three years as well that comes up, whether that's like a speculative thing.

[00:43:40] Isaac Arthur: Nominal imagery.

[00:43:41] Google Play: Just like this kind of situation, you know. So that's something that we're seeing as well, tracking that. I think if there are breweries listening, I'm talking to you, you're probably thinking about the next three or four years and the spirits project you have going on. That's the kind of thing that we're seeing.

[00:43:59] Cody Fague: I did want to dig a little bit into just kind of explaining what day partying is. Not day partying as I first read it. Day partying. Dive into that for us, kind of break that down, what that is.

[00:44:12] Arthur and Cody: Yeah, so that's just the idea that with breweries making seltzer, that was still kind of an alcohol analog. It's the thing that you drink kind of in place of or along with beer. And now with the door kind of blown off, we can make stuff in the morning, things that are non-alcoholic, anything like that. So we can look at morning, we can look at afternoon, evening, stuff like that. We've had a few conversations like this with some of our larger brewery clients. This is more of a CPG Bev thing, but the reason we included it in this piece is that that line is blurring so much on a regular basis that we think there's value in including, you know, a couple of paragraphs about kombucha and this thing we're talking about beer. So I think we have three categories. Cody, jump in here if I miss any. Morning would be kind of big pillars would be like energy, coffee, rehydration, electrolytes is a really fun touchy.

[00:45:00] Google Play: Anything devoted to recovery.

[00:45:02] Arthur and Cody: Electrolytes is an interesting conversation I want to have, or I want you, like, maybe you guys should do a show on this in the future of like where that's allowed and not allowed when we start putting that stuff in there. Afternoon would be like meal replacements. Natural energy is the buzzy term we're seeing now, vitamins, minerals, and then evening, evening, we get into more of that traditional alcohol space. So that can include beers, spirits, but also CBD, CBN, THC, hard teas, I don't know, stuff like that.

[00:45:32] Cody Fague: For the people who may or just be entering the beyond beer space, they've been just crafters before. Are there any particular like approaches or techniques that you are seeing are more successful when you're kind of going into this more crowded or still expanding marketplace?

[00:45:51] Google Play: No matter people are talking about doing non-alcoholic, alcoholic beer, non-beer, it all comes down to how you logically organize both your portfolio and whatever this new thing you want to do is. So, you know, unfortunately, for people who don't like master degree brand architecture talk, that's what this is. It's a brand architecture talk because ultimately, if you're going to release this new thing, you have to carefully weigh how people are going to perceive it. whether or not people are going to be receptive to it. And then we get into specifically some pretty key brand architecture decisions which basically boils down to kind of this fork in the road. Are you going to include your parent brands and really focus on that and say, this is our brewery brand, and we're labeling our new product with that for these reasons? Or do you say, you know what, this might confuse people a little bit, or it might throw people off? Or maybe we're not even worried about it confusing or throwing people off, but we're just aiming at an entirely new segment of people. Then you have this other path where you're either minimizing or in some extreme cases, completely eliminating that parent brand from how you present the product. So from advertising, from the packaging, from how you talk about it and think about it, there are a hundred little steps in between there. But that's how we start that conversation because ultimately what we're trying to do is make this new thing as successful as it can possibly be, hopefully without damaging any kind of perception of the core brewery brand, the thing that brought everyone to the dance and not hold it back as well by the perception of that brewery brand. So that's kind of the dance we're doing there.

[00:47:20] Arthur and Cody: And these are the sorts of exciting conversations we have every single day.

[00:47:26] Isaac Arthur: So are there any differences you can pick out in the design cues for RTDs, ready to drink and cocktails, compared to beer, even hard seltzer? Like I know like the one big thing, which isn't a design element, but like RTDs are basically an eight packs. So are there other things that set these things apart, identifiably on shelves?

[00:47:45] Arthur and Cody: Yeah, I think less so today. Certainly format plays into it, but I mean, even just in the last year, I think that it's kind of, you guys use the word convergence, but just everything is kind of coming together to a point where these rules are not meaning as much as they did. We talked about Seltzer earlier, looking a certain way, having a very specific visual vocabulary. I don't think RTDs necessarily have that right now. They tend to be really vibrant and colorful and fun and poppy, but there are certainly a million examples that aren't that too. So I don't know. I don't know that it's really bound.

[00:48:17] Google Play: There's always a discussion there too with the RTD cocktail thing specifically, whether or not it's spirits-based. Some folks are releasing either malt-based or some other seltzer-derived version of a cocktail. So you can make something that tastes like a gin and tonic or a gin rickey or a margarita that does not have any gin or tequila in it. And people don't seem to care, which is really interesting. I mean, so if you're going spirits-based, then you're having a conversation about price point. Right. So if you have some beautiful aged bourbon and your RTD that price point is going to be a little bit higher. So hopefully the visual cues on that packaging or how that packaging is presented kind of follow suit and help to convince someone like hey here's why you buy this thing to help people sort of understand and make those connections if that's the space you're playing in. But it's been really interesting to watch everything blur and swirl together in a way that. I would have thought people would have been more critical of, but apparently it's so overwhelming that people just don't care and they'll taste anything. And if they like it, they like it. And that's what matters. There is kind of a split in RTDs that I see versus like, are you playing in that seltzer space versus are you really trying to go after replacing a really nice, you know, buying a drink or two at a cocktail bar and you're trying to step up to that experience. Those are two very different use cases. And I think those things would end up looking different accordingly.

[00:49:35] Jessica Infante: It's all about flavor and you don't really have to adapt to a flavor that you've been used to in a non-alcoholic environment. So it makes it a lot easier. And I guess one more thing on that convergence that we talked about was sort of these non-alcoholic brands getting into alcohol. And it's something that you guys discussed on your podcast was that there's sort of this unintended consequence of potentially appealing to an underage drinker. How do you see that conversation potentially evolving here?

[00:50:11] Arthur and Cody: I think it will become a conversation the industry has only because there's kind of outside adults coming into the space now. You know, like if Coca-Cola is waiting in, it's not just a brewery that started, you know, out of a garage. And I think that they probably will be more wary of it. I haven't seen any articles about it, but I've seen like screenshots on Twitter of Hard Mountain Dew and Mountain Dew in the same cooler. You know, it looks very similar, but by design, because it's a brand extension. That was in the Q and a podcast that wasn't in the official one. So I don't know. We were, I don't know that we even had a clear perspective on it other than it's interesting that no one's talking about this because it seems like a thing that people would talk about as you're seeing boozy popsicles and boozy Capri sun packs and, and these, these brands that we grew up with as kids drinking, uh, because you're a child drinking soda, uh, and now it has alcohol in it. I think it's interesting. And that, that probably did not answer your question whatsoever.

[00:51:07] Jessica Infante: Uh-huh. Are you designing a juice box yet?

[00:51:10] Arthur and Cody: We're not, but they exist.

[00:51:12] Google Play: I mean, yeah, they're out there and you know, like I'm looking at simply lemonade. They now have simply spiked lemonade and I'm looking at the package right now. Now they're very clearly have this on their minds because contains alcohol is like it's maybe the third thing I see on the package. And they are trying to make it like all the text is black. You know they're trying to like oh this is black. That means it's for adults. I guess is the idea. It's a really interesting space isn't it. Because you know a kid could buy simply juice for 10 years and then see a spike thing and maybe feel like they could drink that a little bit easier than they could. But but I remember these talks you know back in high school when everybody was slamming the mics on hard lemonade. It's like what's that line there. I'm not a moralist, I don't know.

[00:51:57] Jessica Infante: Well, Dungeons and Dragons made us all into Satanists.

[00:52:01] Google Play: If I'm one of these non-alcoholic brands, the temptation to do something like this, it would be impossible to resist. And then the question becomes, how can we do this in a way that we can sleep at night? And you kind of see what people are doing to make it very clear that like, no, this thing's for adults, this has alcohol in it. And then I think they're kind of hoping that The sort of legislative framework will keep kids safe from that. And I don't know what the lines are there. I think it is really interesting from a design and branding standpoint, though. But of course, this was going to happen. You know, this was inevitable.

[00:52:33] Isaac Arthur: Anecdotally, my family, we were all together last summer in Airbnb and my cousin's 10-year-old son pulled out a hard seltzer from not truly your White Claw, not the big basically white plus fruit brands because he thought it was for him. It was bright colors, cartoon fruit. I totally see how that could have happened. I felt bad because I had bought it.

[00:52:53] Google Play: The hair on my neck starts to raise up because it's like what people say cartoons are just for kids. And I'm like well that's kind of a historical cartoon started out as a thing and movie theaters for adults. So you can say that cartoons are for kids because that's how we currently view that socially. But I mean adults have been making and enjoying cartoons for 100 years too. So who is to say like who that's for and who it isn't for.

[00:53:15] Arthur and Cody: I don't know. Yeah, and what is adult design versus children's? None of this is black and white. I mean, we could say Voodoo Ranger. That's got a cartoon on it, you know. which is why we didn't get anywhere. When we talked about this on our Q and a podcast, we don't have an answer. It's just, it's just kind of a fun thing to discuss.

[00:53:36] Google Play: The really interesting thing is where, when you get into, you know, like THC and cannabis and that industry where you can't sneeze without someone going now, hold on a minute. You're trying to, you're trying to do something to kids there where like it has to be in these Fort Knox packages. So kids can't get their little fingers into like a gummy edible and you know, Like we had one project where we could not put a picture of fruit, like literally just like an illustration of an orange on there because some nameless board thought that that was marketing to kids. And like, that's where that market is. Alcohol has obviously much wider permission to do what it does. So as a designer, it's like, well, the lines seem to change based on where you are and who you're talking to.

[00:54:18] Jessica Infante: Monster took a, is taking a very different tact than anybody else on this. As far as not allowing the monster brand to be used on an alcoholic beverage.

[00:54:30] Arthur and Cody: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart. How many kids I'm thinking of like kids that ride dirt bike in my family, like kids that ride dirt bikes that are obsessed with monster. Like they, they would, they would absolutely grab that thing out of the cooler. So it's, that's a responsible decision on their part, I think.

[00:54:47] Isaac Arthur: Well guys, this has been awesome. So sorry I was late, but always a delight to see you both final final for you when we have this conversation a year from now. What are we going to be talking about?

[00:54:57] Arthur and Cody: In a beer. Vintage IP brands, that's something we've talked about in the past, but we've just had a rash of people reach out with these brands that are now defunct, you know, like 70, 80 year old brands that have gone away, that people have bought and revamping. That's fun, just like selfishly, that's fun as a design firm. I think that, let's talk about the recession and let's talk about where we're headed. I think here's... We haven't even talked about this yet, Cody, but I think that we're going to see more single serve high ABV options that directly call it like from a design standpoint, call out the size and alcohol bang for your buck. We're already starting to see that. It's going to seem kind of crass, like something you'd see, like with violators all over the label at a C store. But I think that it's going to be very important. And I bet we'll see it across beer. Yeah. I mean, I think like this summer, I think we're going to start seeing it. Uh, how much beer are you getting? How's it priced? How much alcohol do you get from that can?

[00:55:50] Google Play: Like it's just doing that math for you and helping you break down the banks of the box.

[00:55:55] Arthur and Cody: One final one. Maybe cider, maybe not. We've kind of talked about this for years. I feel like cider maybe could be ready now that seltzers seltzer has like opened up the door. And now I think cider has a lot of the same benefits and attributes coming from it. I, I want it to be the cider year. I don't know if it will be.

[00:56:14] Google Play: People are so carb conscious that cider becomes tough. Even though, if you look on alcohol delivery, they are selling well. I've noticed ciders styling themselves like beer. I don't know if that's because in people's minds, it's like, men will drink this if it looks like a manly drink. It might be that, it might be something else. But I've noticed the higher selling ciders have been styling themselves to look like a craft beer for one thing or another. That probably could help establish your year of cider.

[00:56:44] Jessica Infante: Cider and the lager, that's where we're going. You're the lager, yeah.

[00:56:48] Google Play: I don't know if it's next year, it might be the next three years, but here's my vision. I would love a regional lager to pop up all over the country in every micro region, maybe every state, maybe every city, and people just throw the big three in the trash and start drinking their local lager. That would be awesome. Is that going to happen? That's tough, but that would be really cool. as we get older, and that's all we can really drink. Something like, you know, riding around 4% and doesn't leave you feeling quite so hairy the next morning, like those things become more and more popular. So as craft drinkers age, we're waiting for that. I don't, I don't know if it'll happen. Like the golden reality I have in my head, it probably won't. Cody, how old are you? How old am I? I'm 60, 65. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm 35. But

[00:57:36] Jessica Infante: Well, hopefully you guys just spoke all of that into existence, except for, you know, you aging 30 years or 35 years.

[00:57:49] Arthur and Cody: Not good.

[00:57:51] Jessica Infante: Thanks, Isaac. Thank you, Cody. We really appreciate your time. Where can folks read the review and find you guys?

[00:58:00] Arthur and Cody: Check this out over kododesign.com, the piece, so C-O-D-O design. And if, give you a little plug here, if you like, that's our big macro kind of annual piece. If you like that sort of content or insight, check out our Beer Branding trends newsletter for more up to the minute monthly looks at the stuff that we cover in this piece. So that's beerbrandingtrends.com and our podcast, which we are not good at, but we enjoy doing. So you can check that out as well.

[00:58:24] Google Play: I'm good at it. Isaac might not be good at it, but I'm really good at it. Cody's good at it. Check me out and mute his part.

[00:58:30] Jessica Infante: So yeah, go check them out. And that's our show for this week. Thanks to our one man audio team, Joe. Thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.