Brewbound Podcast Bonus Episode: North Coast Brewing’s Jennifer Owen; Plus, Tom McCormick and HopXL’s Eric Duchin

[00:00:11] Justin Kendall: Welcome to another bonus edition of the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall, and this week we're going to feature three more conversations from Acme California Craft Beer Summit in Sacramento. First, my colleague, Justin Ponte, and I will have a conversation with Jennifer Owen, the CEO of North Coast Brewing in Fort Bragg, California, Jennifer will discuss the revival of the Acme lager brand. Then Jess and I will have a conversation with HopXL's Eric Duchin, and then we're gonna close out the show with a conversation with Acme California Craft Brewers Association Executive Director Tom McCormick. If you've liked these conversations, we will be doing more of them at the Craft Brewers Conference in Las Vegas. With that, let's get to our featured conversations.

[00:01:02] Brewbound Podcast: Our next guest is Jennifer Owen, CEO and CFO of North Coast Brewing of Fort Bragg, California. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. How are you?

[00:01:13] Jennifer Owen: Thank you. I'm great. I just came from another great session here at the summit, so I'm learning a lot. Totally worth the trip. Good, good. Well, I mean, there's a lot to learn.

[00:01:22] Brewbound Podcast: Yes. We've heard some really exciting stuff that you guys have going on lately, specifically Acme California Lager. Tell us what's going on with that beer, because we are both very hopeful that this finally becomes the year of the lager.

[00:01:34] Jennifer Owen: We knew this was a great timing, but it was kind of coincidental, because what we want to do is resurrect the Acme brand, which is, Acme California Craft's a really big deal. Our founder and initial brewmaster, Mark Rudrick, he's really interested Acme California history and, of course, in beer history. He's passionate about beer, craft beer, and he has a lot of Acme memorabilia. and bought the Acme brewing brand in, like, 1996. Wow. And we've done a couple other beers under the Acme label, but he wanted to get back to its roots. And he's semi-retired, but, you know, definitely still has a hand in the business and has always wanted us to come back to that Acme beer. So we finally were able to roll it out this year, and we're doing it in cans. Wow. And we don't have a can in mine, so... We're primarily bottles still. We love bottles, but we like cans too. So we just rolled out the Acme in a beautiful, bright, cheerful yellow can with the big traditional A from Acme. And we're canning at Anderson Valley Brewing Company, which is another Mendocino County brewery. So right down the road, kind of a long road. We're a little rural, but pretty close to home and great to work with. So it's really exciting.

[00:02:53] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah. For people who maybe aren't big California history buffs, what's the significance of Acme?

[00:03:00] Jennifer Owen: Acme was one of the original San Francisco breweries. They were huge Acme California in the late 1950s through the 70s. They started in San Francisco. I mean, they were doing a million barrels. I think a million two was their top. And then they started a brewery in Southern California. But I mean, they were Acme California brewer. But, you know, it's amazing Acme California Craft's just Acme. You kind of know it. So we're thrilled to bring it back. We were so sad to see Anchor go away. Right. And this is another part Acme California's beer history. It's fun. It's a fun brand to bring back. And it's really good beer.

[00:03:44] Justin Kendall: And that's something I'm glad that you brought up Anchor because Its future is very much in flux. We don't know what's going to happen with the brand. You know, they've shut down production. They've ceased production, I should say, and it's on the auction block. So what do you see as the opportunity here with sort of the legacy San Francisco brand out of market at this point?

[00:04:08] Jennifer Owen: As far as the Anchor brand, I'm still crossing my fingers that somebody will keep it intact because we're happy to sort of resurrect the Acme brand. But our goal is to keep it going in our brewery forever, of course. And we want to see Anchor come back to San Francisco because anybody can buy a brand and do it somewhere else. But it's not the same. It's homegrown. We want these brands to stay Acme California Craft we want those breweries and all those brewers to stay Acme California. Definitely our goal to keep brewing right where we are forever with our brands.

[00:04:48] Justin Kendall: Are you going statewide with Acme?

[00:04:50] Jennifer Owen: Oh yeah, yeah. We're currently in 46 or 47 states with our other brands, so we'll go as far as anybody wants to take it.

[00:05:00] Brewbound Podcast: Wow, that's smart. And so you're wearing your North Coast fleece with your certified B Corporation embroidery on the sleeve. I know how important that is to you guys, but what can you tell us about what being B Corp certified has meant to you?

[00:05:14] Jennifer Owen: Well, I can tell you we're really proud of it. And it's a lot of work to be a B Corp. There's something Acme California Craft a benefit corporation. In order to be a benefit corporation, which is a legal status, you have to certify that you're doing what you say you do. And so the B Corp provides that certification. And it's a really rigorous certification. But our owners and founders wanted to do something that was sustainable as far as staying in our community, keeping our employment in our community, helping our community. We live next to the ocean. Our community is right next to the ocean and we want to protect that as much as possible. We live there, we work there, it's a huge visitor, tourism destination, and so we want to help protect the ocean. Everything we do is we try to buy as close to home as possible, reduce transit time, and we try to buy American as much as possible, and recyclable materials, compostable materials. As much as possible, we're moving in that direction, and it's not easy, and it's not inexpensive. But I love seeing the whole craft brewing industry is going in the same direction. Everybody's trying to do a sustainable craft that's good for the world. And the B Corp thing, you know, good for the community, good for the world, good for our employees, community, and the world. So it makes you feel good. You know, we make great beer, but we also, it's a great effort for our whole community and for our staff to know that that's our goal.

[00:06:53] Justin Kendall: You're echoing a lot of the things that we heard from Rob Todd during the keynote speech to this event. Building community has been, it's just so important for craft brewers at this point as things get shaky, you know, it's that community that's going to have your back and lift you up. And you at North Coast have really done that with the charitable work that you've done. You've got 14 charitable, at least 14 charitable organizations that you work with. How did your outreach grow to that size?

[00:07:25] Jennifer Owen: I think part of it was that we have a trio of majority owners that are our board, and they each had different interests. So Mark Rudrick had a marine biology interest and training, and so we definitely went that direction. Doug Moody was totally into music and jazz, and there's our brother Thelonious' background. And I don't know Tom Allen as well, but I'm sure he had his own input. In fact, we've been trying to narrow a little. So our philanthropy is we focus on the ocean is kind of one of our focuses. Education, kids education is kind of a focus. Music education is what the Brothers Thelonious supports. And then our local community is our huge other category. And we support, Minnesota County is small, Fort Bragg is teeny, but we support pretty much every local nonprofit that asks. Wow. And it's really important to every local nonprofit. And usually it's they can sell our beer and they're really appreciative. But for us, it's a kind of a no brainer. And we just we're really good at churning out that beer and we know all our nonprofits and we try to get our employees to volunteer. That's another part of being a B Corp. You know, many of us are on multiple boards and participate in the community activities. And it's a small town, we live and work there. We literally, it's hard to get out. It's hard to leave town, it's a drive. And how many people live in Fort Bragg? City Limits is only 7,000 people. Wow. But our shopping area is about 15,000 people. Okay. And I don't live in City Limits, but it's the biggest community on the Mendocino Coast.

[00:09:10] Justin Kendall: So we talked about the Acme brand. Let's talk a little bit about the North Coast brand. What are you excited about? What do you see is the big opportunity for the North North Coast brand going forward?

[00:09:22] Jennifer Owen: We're at such an interesting point. We have always been, for years, primarily bottles, really slow to get into cans at all. Because you can see the trend on the bottles is down. And yet, at this point, some people are realizing they kind of need that bottling line. We're hanging on to our bottles. They're still selling really well. But we did get into cans through contract brewing. Scrimshaw and Old Rasputin are big brands, and that's what we contract brew on. And our Acme we're doing with a different brewery that can do the smaller batches. And I just feel really strongly that we need to maintain as much flexibility as possible going forward. The world is so volatile. Yes. whether it's the packaging supplies or the raw materials, you never know what the next crisis is going to be and what the next shortage is going to be. So my whole mantra has been, you know, whatever keeps us as flexible as possible. So we we would love to have our own canning line. We're looking at feasibility. Never thought we had room, but you could squeeze a lot into a small space. So.

[00:10:35] Justin Kendall: Well, and it's probably a buyer's market at this point, right?

[00:10:38] Jennifer Owen: Kind of, there's stuff available. Not many people are expanding. And this wouldn't really be an expansion. It's more about bringing our production home to Fort Bragg. Because if we don't maintain production in Fort Bragg, it's hard to have a brewery in Fort Bragg. It's a long way from a major highway. And it works out pretty well because every merchant in town needs raw materials, products to come in. and we need stuff to go out. So that part works pretty well for us, but, you know, we're a long ways away. Everything costs more for us, but we're still, we are determined to stay in Fort Bragg. We employ a lot of people who are really important, not just to our city, but to our whole county. We're a big taxpayer, a big employer, one of the biggest employers. And counties like ours, rural counties, need clean manufacturing industry. And so we're really proud of it and we just, that's why we're working so hard to do what we can to stay in Fort Bragg, stay as flexible as possible, really watch our nickels and dimes.

[00:11:44] Justin Kendall: That's quite a commitment. I live in a place where, you know, a factory is shutting down and it's going to rock that economy. So it would be very similar to a North Coast, you know, abandoning Fort Bragg. The current environment is just, like you said, so volatile. So if you make that investment in that canning line, I mean, you're going to make that money back anyway on the back end, just in the margin that you save.

[00:12:10] Jennifer Owen: Yeah, it's scary. Nobody wants to spend money right now. And it's not necessarily going to spike our sales because what we want to do is bring that production home. But it'll bring back up our production, we think, and we will make much more efficient use of everything in our facility. I mean, the fixed cost and the variable cost. So we're working on it. We're getting there. And how big is your team these days? We're hovering around a hundred. We have a full service restaurant pub. And so, you know, like 30% of their 40% of the brewery, we have outside sales and admin and we have a retail store. So, you know, we kind of hit all of it and it's an adventure every day. I'm sure.

[00:12:53] Brewbound Podcast: Now you were just telling us that you, you joined the brewery six years ago and obviously four of those years have been pandemic years. So you, really picked quite a time to come join us over here in the beer industry. But what have you learned in these past six years? What surprised you?

[00:13:07] Jennifer Owen: Well, I love learning about the whole B Corp aspect. Even before I got to North Coast, they were just a highly respected company in town. So I was thrilled to go work for them. And The craft brewing industry, it's so awesome. I love the way that everybody likes to share their expertise and it's a very friendly industry. You know, there's a lot of wine in Northern California, Napa, etc. And wine is so different than beer. So it's been fun. I was trained as an accountant and it's great for me to not be strictly doing accounting, but it's a little bit intimidating having my job because I'm overseeing all these things and I'm learning a lot about brewing. I'm learning that I'm not a really good taster. Because it's always, oh, this is great. They'll say, well, what about the subtle notes of double whatever and I'll say, I don't know. I have to say I don't know, but it tastes great to me. And I'm just your average, I feel like I'm your average consumer. And if you please me, that's a good thing.

[00:14:12] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah. And you can learn all of that. But I think having somebody with that approach is so important for taste panel purposes.

[00:14:20] Jennifer Owen: Thumbs up or thumbs down.

[00:14:21] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, there you go. Now, I mean, North Coast is like a top 50 craft brewer, certainly an OG of the craft world. You guys have been around through a lot of the ups and downs of the industry. I mean, what lessons has the brewery learned from 1988 to now that would benefit newer brewers?

[00:14:36] Jennifer Owen: I would say, and this is my accounting coming through probably, but really have your business plan in order before you expand. And I went to some great sessions this weekend that just sort of pointed that out. Got to have your dollars and cents in order. You got to know what you're doing. You better have your distribution agreements in order. Seek professional advice. Seek advice from other brewers, which they're lovely about sharing. Everybody wants to share their experiences. We used to, when the trend was just up, up, up, and it was never going to stop, we spent money really freely. And we don't do that anymore. And it was kind of a culture shift. And when I came in, then COVID hit, it was pretty easy to say, there's nothing coming in, folks. We got to, everybody, sorry, we're tightening our belts. But things are settling in. And I think new breweries, if they just Listen and learn and watch. Always watch the trends, not just in your community, not just beer, but all the trends. It's amazing what you'll learn about what's going to come down the pipeline. Amazing.

[00:15:46] Brewbound Podcast: I think that's a perfect place to leave it. Thank you so much for joining us. This was really great to chat with you today.

[00:15:51] Jennifer Owen: Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.

[00:15:53] Brewbound Podcast: Of course. So our guest is Eric Duchin of HopXL. What's your title, Eric? I should ask you that. I'm sorry.

[00:16:04] On Location: That's a great question. I call myself the 24-hour guy, but my labels, if you want to label somebody, I'm like the president, CEO, and head scientist.

[00:16:14] Brewbound Podcast: Oh, God.

[00:16:15] On Location: That's just a few things.

[00:16:16] Brewbound Podcast: Just a few small things.

[00:16:18] On Location: But the one that sticks is the 24-hour guy.

[00:16:21] Brewbound Podcast: I bet.

[00:16:21] On Location: Yes.

[00:16:22] Brewbound Podcast: Well, so you and I chatted yesterday before the show really kicked off, and your product fascinated me. So that's why we're talking right now. But in a nutshell, tell us what HopXL is.

[00:16:35] On Location: So what we started with was trying to help brewers. Currently, they use a box of pellets, and they can get about 5% of those oils and flavor into their beers. And it's a huge help. headache for them because the cost of pellets are going sky high. Cost of beer is going pretty high. Where you used to be able to buy three or four beers for a dollar, now you get two and you got to walk out and stuff like that. So we saw a area in there where we could actually help the brewers. We could extract more of the product out of it and give it to them in a water base so that they can just pour it in and get back all their displacement. They could get back the speed of brewing. So instead of it dry hopping for seven, eight days, you dry hop for 24 hours. and then you're already canning and stuff and that's a huge benefit for those guys and you know like most brewers have about a 20 percent displacement value and you know that's three four thousand dollars to them or even more and we give it all back to them they get every bit of it. we were doing with Harlan Brewing, and they were doing a sample 10-barrel system. And they brewed that 10-barrel system. And the brewer comes up to me and goes, it's the first time I've ever gotten 9.8 barrels out of a 10-barrel system. Wow. That's insane. Like, he was just going, we just don't get that. And I think I probably could have gotten higher, but everybody kept drinking it along the way. So they never really saw how much they actually got.

[00:18:12] Brewbound Podcast: So how did you discover the science behind this process?

[00:18:16] On Location: So I'm from the cannabis industry and I've been in it for 40 years and I've gotten through every single extraction process that's known to mankind. And you know, I started all at steam distillation and went up from there to CO2 distillation, went to like ethanol distillation, all these different hydrocarbon distillations. And the idea behind extracting anything is what can you get out? And so for a brewery, you're really wanting the flavor and the flavonoids, the terpenes, all these different things that make up the taste that a consumer has. Currently, what happens with them is when they drink it and they're trying to make a beer, they're always having to deal with the bitterness of that beer. And that's why every time you get a beer, like a craft beer, it's bitter heavy. And there's no way around that. They can't get there. And so what we were able to do is take this extract with all this flavor, all these different things, and we were able to make them a product that they can actually add to it, which is just the flavor. We pulled out all the acidics, all that kind of stuff, and they can pour in the flavor and aroma over the bitterness. And so they can make any kind of beer now. And the flavor is unaffected? Unaffected whatsoever. The best way of talking about flavor and aroma in a beer is talking about an N.A. beer. It's a huge thing going on right now. So a lot of people try to do these N.A. beers and they always come out kind of weird tasting because all of the flavor and aroma currently is in the alcohol. So when they remove the alcohol, they're removing all the flavor and aroma with it. That's what you're left with, and that's your N.A. beer. But reality-wise, if you aren't in the alcohol and you're in the water, they don't lose any of the flavor or aroma. That's why we decided to go down this path.

[00:20:17] Brewbound Podcast: That's really interesting. And I assume in addition to like the actual producing of the beer, there's other benefits that the product offers like logistical things.

[00:20:26] On Location: It's night and day. So first off, they buy a box of hops. They can do about eight barrels with that box of hops. Right off the bat, we can take that one box of hops and make it three boxes of hops. So instead of eight barrels, they can actually make 30 barrels. Wow. So that's a huge savings. And that's for the beer companies. It's not for the farms. We don't care about the farm part of that end of it. And not that I'm trying to be mean that I don't like farmers or anything like that is not the case. Willie Nelson will come for you. Yes, they will definitely try to figure that part out. But for us, you've got to pick who you're trying to help. You've got to try to help people. Because if you can't help somebody, don't go into business. Solve a problem. And that problem for us was, how little they get out of a box of hops. And every year those boxes of hops go higher and higher in price. Like I heard recently that it's like $650 for a box of pellets. But they're not the beer makers. They're an ingredient supplier. And when your box of hops gets over the thing, that's why we're seeing the cost of a beer to the consumer being $7, $7.50, $8. It's just crazy. It should go back down. It should be something that they can make money on, and everybody can enjoy the beers that they can make, and they can start growing. And we can help people a lot. Like you were asking, what other benefits are there? Think about a small brewery that has eight to 10 beers on tap. Takes them right now about two to three weeks to make a beer. They have a 10 barrel system. You're talking about six months worth of work just to get the beers they currently have on tap. Using our product, they can make a tank of alcohol, pour it into kegs, and then flavor the kegs to each one of their beers and put them on tap. They did that, now you're talking about seven days, and now they can take a break. They can actually not work 24 hours a day for weeks on end. And those margins improve. All the margins improve, and they actually start making money. I mean, isn't that what business is? Is helping other businesses make money? And those are the connections. It shouldn't be so much one-sided.

[00:22:51] Brewbound Podcast: Are there any types of hops that are more optimal for the process than others?

[00:22:57] On Location: None. They're all the same. Wow. The only cool part about all this is when you really look at hops, it's just compounds. Well, interesting. Well, we extract compounds. And so I can make mosaic or citra or any of these TM products by combining these different compounds and have the same flavor. So what do they actually have? Nothing. Wow. And I'm sorry, I'm saying it this way, but if somebody has to like speak up, because this is kind of wrong the way it's been going.

[00:23:27] Brewbound Podcast: I mean, I would rather have you on our podcast with some spicy takes than not. I mean, I think that's a perfect place to leave it. Thank you so much for joining us, Eric. And thank you for that hot water yesterday.

[00:23:38] On Location: You're more than welcome.

[00:23:42] Justin Kendall: We are joined now with the man who is probably the least stressed out person here, Tom McCormick, the former executive director of Acme California Craft Brewers Association. Thanks for being here, Tom.

[00:23:53] California Craft: Well, thanks for having me. And I will confirm and verify that I'm not very stressed right now.

[00:23:59] Justin Kendall: That's awesome to hear. So this is your first year at the Summit, you know, as just somebody that's attending. What's it like?

[00:24:08] California Craft: It's not stressful. Well, it's really great to be back. I did not make it here last year, of course, 2019, when I was executive director here. So that was my last summit going into the pandemic. But it's great to be here. And the one thing I miss the most is the people. And so it's great to reconnect with all my good friends that I still stay connected with many of them, but it's great to see them in person and just great to hang out with everybody.

[00:24:41] Brewbound Podcast: Tom, remind me when you retired from your director role.

[00:24:45] California Craft: Was that 21? It was January 2021. Wow. It was intended to be the middle of 2020, but with the pandemic, I stayed on a little bit longer. But January 2021 was when I left after 15 years.

[00:25:03] Brewbound Podcast: You've Acme California is the country's biggest craft market, and you were at the helm of the trade organization that represents all of those brewers. How would you say the craft scene has evolved here over the years? I know that's an enormous question, so feel free to... take bites out of it however you want?

[00:25:21] California Craft: That's a huge question. And I got started in the industry here Acme California in 1983. So I've seen it, you know, I've kind of had a front row seat from then. But in those 15 years, I started at the CCBA in 2005. You know those were kind of the boom years coming out of the late 90s where we had a slowdown in the industry and by 2005 the momentum was really picking up and so it was a wild ride and you know if I had to pick one word to describe it I would say growth I mean the growth in the number of breweries and in craft beer sales obviously as well during that period of time is phenomenal so it was a very fun time and a great time to to be working here at the Trade Association.

[00:26:21] Brewbound Podcast: I bet. I mean, what were some of the wins in the sales at that time, like style-wise? I mean, I know IPAs have reached a majority of scan data dollar sales, Acme California Craft obviously always been heavy on IPAs, but style-wise back then, what was popular?

[00:26:37] California Craft: Well, you know, interesting as these IPAs were definitely popular, there was a kind of growing awareness of the whole barrel-age, Belgium-style beers that were coming out at that time. The porters and stouts were popular then. We had a real surge in popularity and red ales in kind of the late 90s that had kind of faded out by 2005. But yeah, I mean, you know, it wasn't really too different than it is today. We didn't have the hazy IPAs and, you know, some of the really fruity things going on, but there was a lot of innovation Acme California Craft that time, so there were a lot of different styles that were popular at that time.

[00:27:28] Justin Kendall: So you're into 9% ABV hazies now?

[00:27:31] California Craft: Still not yet.

[00:27:32] Justin Kendall: Still not yet?

[00:27:33] California Craft: Do you think that will come with age, maybe?

[00:27:35] Justin Kendall: Speaking from experience, I think it lessens over time.

[00:27:40] California Craft: That's kind of what I expected too. So yeah, I haven't gotten there yet.

[00:27:45] Brewbound Podcast: Never say never.

[00:27:46] California Craft: But never say never. Who knows?

[00:27:49] Justin Kendall: Well, we're a few years removed now from COVID. How would you describe the health of Acme California Craft beer market at this point?

[00:27:58] California Craft: I think it mirrors the country very closely. You know, I like to think that the health of the craft beer industry is good, but it's evolved obviously dramatically in the last couple of years since the pandemic. I think a lot of the trends that we have seen in the last five years were developing and emerging in 2019. And I think a lot of us kind of saw that coming. And I think the pandemic really accelerated some of those evolutions in alcohol beverage in general. But, you know, the craft brewing industry is here to stay. There's going to be players that continue to do very, very well. And we are going to continue to see those that aren't able to make it and go out of business or try to find a partner. But I think at these conferences, we're hearing the same mantra over and over, which is you just have to really be on your game. with the most important elements, which are quality and business control, and knowing your consumer, knowing your community, and being a partner in your community. And I think Rob Todd had some really good messages during his talk today. So there's Obviously a lot of room for good things to happen in the craft brewing industry, but it's not open the roll-up doors and people will show up no matter what you do or what environment you provide for them.

[00:29:38] Brewbound Podcast: this isn't the first time we've seen contraction in the industry and you've, you know, been part of this industry for so long that you've seen some of those periods. Thinking that the last time we had this much of a contraction, say like, I don't know, like the 90s? Late 90s, yeah. Do you see any parallels between that time and now?

[00:29:57] California Craft: No, not really. I mean, that was driven by a lack of quality. There were just a lot of new players coming online that craft beer had been so popular up to that point that people were just opening breweries or contract brewing was very popular at that time. And coming out with brands that didn't have very good quality, didn't have good shelf stability. There was less management of the product once it left the brewery. Breweries didn't have the very good partnerships with their distributors at that time because they just didn't know how to do that. You know, there were some that did very well because they did know how to do that, Jim Cook being one of them. And so there was what we call a slowdown at that time, and as Dave Edgard, who was head of the, I think the Association of Brewers at that time, which is now the Brewers Association, famously said, I think it was in 1997 at CBC in Seattle, craft beer is at an all-time high, which means that even in that period of time where things were slowing down, they were still growing. So we had gone from growth in the high teens to 20% down to 5, 6, 7% during that period of time. So that's a big difference from today where we're really seeing the growth go backwards, go down. So it's dramatic. I mean, I've been in the industry a long time and I've never seen a period like this in our industry that has occurred so quickly. And again, I think it's accelerated by the pandemic, but the pandemic is not the only reason for these changes and evolutions that we're seeing right now.

[00:31:49] Justin Kendall: You used to guide the CCBA. You've held the line on so many of the legislative issues, whether it's beating back franchise law reform and those sort of things to, you know, keep the ability for brewers to move. So many other issues, you know, you've really led the charge on. But, you know, with a fresh perspective and an outsider's perspective, you know, what do you see as some of the biggest legislative battles that, you know, craft brewers are facing right now?

[00:32:19] California Craft: Well, there's always going to be franchise, so there's always that. Now, California Craft what we kind of refer to as mini-franchise, so we do not have a full-blown franchise here Acme California Craft's kind of in bits and pieces scattered throughout the statute. Not all the wholesalers, but some of the wholesalers would very much like to see what is called more of a strict franchise legislation here Acme California. And so I think that at some point is probably going to resurface. The wholesalers have tried that numerous times here in the state and not been successful. So I think that's kind of always out there. taxes. Now that's one where all the stakeholders in the industry come together and it's a pretty powerful coalition. But I think we're definitely going to see an attempt to raise the excise tax on alcohol Acme California. There's always the BAC lowering the limit from 0.08 to 0.05. You know, there's been repetitive attempts in other states and I think California is probably on the radar at some point over the course of the next couple of years. And I think that those in the other segments of the industry and particularly in spirits would like to see more equalization in terms of the rules and regulations and taxes for spirits compared to beer and wine. So I think we may see some efforts there as well. So those are probably the main ones. The other, the ones that we fought a lot in the past were more around trade practice issues, and we seem to be seeing less of those. Those seem to be of less importance to some of the other players.

[00:34:19] Brewbound Podcast: Tom, you were leading the organization when recreational cannabis became, you know, legal. And this is one of, this is probably the biggest market in the country. How much interplay has there been with craft beer? And what can you, I think, you know, maybe the panic over, you know, when this becomes legal, people will drink less beer is subsided. But is there anything that people in other states can learn from how these two industries coexist Acme California?

[00:34:46] California Craft: Well, I think the more that our industry can work hand in hand with them, at least be in communication, the better. We spent a lot of time with the cannabis industry when that recreational legislation was moving forward. It was a pretty splintered group on the cannabis side. There were multiple organizations that were kind of heading that up, so it made it a little bit more difficult because there was not one single organization to kind of work with. But we spent a lot of time talking and comparing notes. Cannabis would be well served to follow what has been done in the alcohol segment in terms of things like trade practice, direct sales, and things of that nature. Eventually, cannabis is going to become more accepted, and it's going to become legal across more states, and eventually, I think, it's going to be legalized on the federal level, and this is going to take some time, 10 to 15 years, I think we'll look back and think that it was pretty silly where we are today and, you know, what's allowed and what's not allowed. I don't really see it to be a big competition to craft beer or to beer or to alcohol. I mean, it is, you know, everything competes. But I don't, I mean, it's just, I think it's part of our, a growing part of our culture that will continue to evolve into a much more accepted product. You know, there's just a lot of dividing lines now that I don't think will exist in the future.

[00:36:33] Justin Kendall: Well, Tom, it's always great to hear from you. So thanks for checking in with us.

[00:36:37] California Craft: Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Enjoy the summit. Yeah, you too.

[00:36:42] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Jess and Zoe for all they do. Thanks to our audio team, especially Joe and Ryan for holding it down on these On Location podcasts. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.