Brewbound Podcast: Anchor Back From the Abyss; Monster Closes Another Texas Brewery; and Boston Beer Sale Rumors

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Next on the Brewbound Podcast, Anchor gets pulled back from the abyss, Monster closes another Texas brewery, and Boston Beer is in talks to sell, or maybe not. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:26] Jessen Fante: I'm Jessen Fante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:29] Justin Kendall: And welcome back, Jess.

[00:00:31] Jessen Fante: Thanks, guys. It's so good to be back. I love how I said my own name like I was surprised by it.

[00:00:36] Justin Kendall: You're surprised that you're back.

[00:00:37] Monday Night: Oh, I'm surprised everyone that's listening that they hear your voice.

[00:00:42] Jessen Fante: I mean, were people confused? Like, did she have another baby? I'm sure there may be some people, but... Maybe. My cousin legit did that last year. Her first baby turned one in July and her second baby came in August. And if that were my case right now, I don't know. The struggles would abound. But no, I just took some time to hang with Cora. you know, before her first birthday, as allowed under the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and supported by the generosity and support of you two fine, fine human beings. So thank you very much. We had a great time. We are happy to facilitate.

[00:01:20] Monday Night: I wouldn't call what our time was a great time. We survived. I'm glad you had a great time. I'm very happy that you're able to do this and that our Commonwealth allows people to do this.

[00:01:32] Jessen Fante: I think everyone should do this because like when you're immediately in like the, you know, foggy five months after birth, like you don't have your wits about you. And you know, I personally didn't really feel confident in momming. But now that I've had, you know, had a whole 11 months down, I felt good. And you know, we really, we bonded as what the leave is for.

[00:01:53] Monday Night: Right? Isn't that the whole thing is like bonding. You can't really bond if you're just trying to live, just trying to live and then also feed a child from your own body.

[00:02:02] Jessen Fante: Yeah. But I mean, Zoe, if you want me to put you in a baby hiking carrier on my back, we can go for some hikes, because that was really fun.

[00:02:11] Monday Night: I don't know if I'll fit into one of those, but I'll accompany you on one of those. Sounds good.

[00:02:16] Justin Kendall: Well, a lot of news happened, so a lot of news happened and we have guests this week. We have three guests and they were all conversations that we recorded on the floor of the Craft Brewers Conference. We're going to be joined by Monday Night Brewing co-founder and CEO Jeff Heck, free agent Rob Day, and the new owners of Cicerone, Dan Imdieke and Jason Pratt. So stay tuned for that. And yes, we have a lot of news and it just kept coming on Friday and All I want to do is send an easy breaking news newsletter right at two o'clock central, I think three o'clock eastern. It just never goes that way. So a lot going on on Friday, and we're going to talk all about those three stories that I sort of keyed up in the cold open. Where do y'all want to start? Do you want to start with Anchor, Boston Beer, or Monster?

[00:03:15] Monday Night: I feel like we need to start with anchor because we've been waiting for this for so freaking long. Yeah, let's so glad it's over.

[00:03:24] Justin Kendall: Let's go there. So Anchor Brewing, we found out, was saved by billionaire founder of Chobani, Hamdi Ulukaya. He acquired the brand and the property. No sale price was revealed, but we had heard that the real estate was going for around 40 million. And then in talks that we sort of had with others who have been through M&A processes, they said that the IP would go for around probably 10 million.

[00:03:54] Jessen Fante: That's a lot for IP, but when you look at what the anchor brand is and means to Craft Beer, I get it.

[00:04:01] Monday Night: Yeah. And that was also with them sold potentially separately, so we don't know what it's like now that he's bought everything as a joint package.

[00:04:10] Jessen Fante: Yeah, because one of the possibilities that I think was laid out was that this storied brand could be sold basically for parts. I think a lot of people are going to take comfort in the fact that it's all staying together and hopefully making a comeback. But did you guys have Greek yogurt magnate on your list at all of potential buyers?

[00:04:30] Justin Kendall: That's my question that I have here is like in your wildest dreams, could you have ever imagined this scenario? And I would say if you say yes, you're an absolute liar.

[00:04:43] Jessen Fante: No, I will say I do very much enjoy Chobani's coffee creamer.

[00:04:48] Monday Night: Oh, I haven't tried that.

[00:04:50] Jessen Fante: Yeah, really good.

[00:04:51] Monday Night: Yeah, no, I did not think this at all. I didn't even think that there was going to be anybody who would buy it wanting to keep the brand going. Like I didn't think that was going to be a possibility. There was lots of people who said they wanted to, but I really didn't think it was going to happen, especially with the value of San Francisco real estate right now and all of that. So I am shocked. all around. And then there are going to be a lot of very, very happy craft enthusiasts out there because of it, if he can make it work.

[00:05:22] Jessen Fante: It'll be interesting. I mean, I think the notion of like benevolent billionaire swooping in to save business, you know, beloved business in a troubled industry is something we've seen like Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post. But we're also seeing that is a little shaky and not really looking so good right now. So how this plays out, I think, is anybody's guess. You know, I think Hamdi himself even mentioned that he doesn't know anything about beer at all, right?

[00:05:50] Monday Night: Yeah, he hasn't been involved in the industry before. He really just enjoys and he had like a little video that came out during the announcement. And it was really talking about how much he just loves San Francisco and like the city itself and the potential of the city. And so he likes the idea of having something that's like historically connected to the city and to be a part of like the next chapter or whatever San Francisco could be. The thing I keep thinking about is like Tilray almost, like how Tilray brought on all these new craft brands where they weren't entirely sure they had some experience the past few years, but they're kind of just jumping into cold water and figuring things out. This guy has even less experience, but seems just as enthusiastic about the potential.

[00:06:37] Jessen Fante: Yeah. I mean, that's like a great analog, Zoe, particularly within beer, like Tilray just gobbling up various brands and just hoping it goes well. And it's nuts to me to be like, I love this city. Let me buy a craft beer brand in it, which is an interesting thought. Like it's very romantic. Do we know anything about the anchor union? I know the workers there really were trying to stay involved in any kind of a deal. So it'd be interesting to know whether like they'll get to stay on, or how many have left by now? I'm sure a good amount.

[00:07:09] Monday Night: The union posted on social media on the 31st, so that Friday, and said that they just had received the news that morning, and they're excited to hear that he wants to bring back as many workers as possible. We want to bring back the good jobs from San Francisco workers that Anchor provided. The people who have made anchor for decades stand ready to return to work and start making the beer the city loves. This is a new chapter in the story of anchor and the workers are ready to help write it." Hamdi had also said in his announcement that he had met with some of the former workers beforehand as well and talked about some of the history of the brewery and the brewing process and everything. So he seems to be in communication with some of the leadership over there within the union to see what's going to happen next.

[00:07:54] Justin Kendall: Cool. After 10 months off though, definitely not going to be easy to get things going from basically zero to, you know, back up and in distribution, but. He did say he was hoping to have Christmas ale out this year. I don't know how realistic that is, but we shall see. And I don't know. I think that it's hard to find fault with this. He definitely has the resources to support this venture. Still, I would not have anticipated this would even be an option for Anchor. And it's hard to find fault with it. And I guess we will see, you know, how it plays out over time. But this brand keeps rising up like a phoenix.

[00:08:42] Jessen Fante: How the Yogurt Man Saved Christmas. Ew.

[00:08:46] Justin Kendall: There you go. That's the new title for this episode, I think, or at least a future conversation.

[00:08:56] Jessen Fante: Should we continue the deal conversation? I think we should. Speaking of other. Mostly benevolent billionaires, Boston Beer Company.

[00:09:06] Justin Kendall: Rumors that in the Wall Street Journal, this hit Friday, that they are in talks with Suntory, which Suntory came out and said, not so fast, we are not in talks. So I don't know who you wanna believe, you know, the company that's supposedly in talks or, you know, people familiar with, I can't remember the exact verbiage, but it was like, people familiar with the process or something like that.

[00:09:37] Jessen Fante: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's nice to think that the Wall Street Journal would not be running something so thinly cited if they didn't have it on lock.

[00:09:49] Justin Kendall: Mm hmm. I mean, it's it's tough because, you know, sometimes when these things happen, they usually hit. And then like a week later, there's a deal. And then this one, it's interesting because there's just the complete denial from Suntory on talks. Boston Beer released several statements, one from Jim Cook to employees that we obtained. He said, rumors are rumors, but he didn't say, no, we're not in talks, which, you know, could be easily explained by there being non-disclosure agreements. And then there was the external, like, first they declined to comment to us. And then after trading closed, they sent out an official statement. Here it is Tuesday afternoon when we're recording this and Green Thumb Industries, a cannabis firm, has apparently sent a letter to Jim Cook saying they're interested in acquiring the brewery and that they could provide a price better than Centauri. And I believe one of the analysts pegged a takeout value at between $5 to $7 billion for Boston Beer.

[00:11:00] Jessen Fante: If you look at the stock ticker, which I know we all know is not necessarily the perfect record of a business's health. But in this case, it is telling a story. And if you Google, you know, Samstack right now, it is up and down and up and down and up and down. And now I sound like Miss Rachel, who I just spent a lot of time with. But right now, at 11.24 a.m., it is at $295 a share. That is down from its market open rate of $302 a share. So there's a lot of chatter that's affecting this, which is interesting to me. You know, I should know this and it shouldn't surprise me and it doesn't surprise me, but it never doesn't interest me how news stories affect stock prices, which is exactly what we saw on Friday.

[00:11:52] Monday Night: Yeah, we had talked about on Friday when this came out of like, oh, is there like a strategy here for Boston Beer about getting these kinds of stories out and improving their stock? And then we saw the opposite effect happen today with green, what is this, green industries, green thumb industries? So I guess not in all scenarios. But I mean, I was talking about this earlier. Boston Beer, one, has made it a point to separate cannabis from its main business and does not involve any of its cannabis operations, which are happening, I think, almost exclusively in Canada, right, or only in Canada, with teapot. Separate from all the other stuff that Boston Beer is up to, I don't know if they would change their view on that so quickly in order to get bought by this company.

[00:12:40] Jessen Fante: My one beef with the journal story was that they threw in the Beam Boston Beer JV as like an afterthought at the very end, the very last sentence. And I think that these two companies do have a joint venture that has turned out quite a few products, I think really needs to be considered when you think about, you know, why rumors like this might be bubbling up because they are working together and maybe they really like each other. I mean, I think they must because This partnership was announced in the summer of 2020, I think.

[00:13:12] Justin Kendall: It's either 2020 or 2021.

[00:13:16] Monday Night: I feel like that's incredibly important, too, when you think about the products that seem to be getting the most attention right now.

[00:13:29] Justin Kendall: Yeah, they formed this strategic partnership, long term, this was the quote, long term strategic partnership in 2021. And this would fit toward the goal that Centauri has of being the number one F&B maker out there. If you have that goal and you have the shot at acquiring Twisted Tea and Truly, one's arrow is pointing up, the other is pointing down. But that other arrow pointing up is a very convincing one.

[00:14:00] Jessen Fante: These two companies know each other. They like each other. I don't know about you guys. It wouldn't surprise me if this really did have a good deal of truth behind it. But we'll see what happens.

[00:14:11] Justin Kendall: There's a lot of smoke. And I think the question that maybe we should ask is if this strategic partnership is still active or how active it is, especially after they killed off Sousa. So that's what sort of comes to my mind. And then the other part is if Jim Cook is ready to move on because he he is stated a million times over that his succession plan or retirement plan is to not die. And I think you can put that in quotes.

[00:14:43] Jessen Fante: Oh, that is a tried and true Jimism.

[00:14:46] Justin Kendall: Changes over a decade, but.

[00:14:48] Jessen Fante: I mean, I think, you know, he does have, if he wanted, a pretty obvious, also, you know, charismatic and knowledgeable and front-facing successor in Sam, but who knows?

[00:14:59] Justin Kendall: Definitely.

[00:15:01] Jessen Fante: If you wanted to retire, you could. You could. Have fun.

[00:15:04] Justin Kendall: The man's first name is Sam.

[00:15:06] Jessen Fante: The man's first name is Sam.

[00:15:08] Justin Kendall: All right, well, let's talk about one more, and that is Monster is closing or has closed the Deep Ellum Brewery and Taproom in Dallas. Deep Ellum will live on with its beer produced at other facilities. I'm guessing Colorado and or North Carolina, but. This follows Monster closing the Oscar Blues production facility in Austin, Texas, and then changing the purpose of the Cigar City Taproom in Tampa into an R&D innovation hub.

[00:15:45] Jessen Fante: Deep Ellum's always an interesting one to me because when you look at what, you know, had been the canarchy fam, it didn't have the nationwide reach that Oscar Blues or Cigar City, you know, eventually grew to. And I don't know if that had ever been part of the plan, but now we know it will never be part of the plan, I think is pretty safe to say.

[00:16:04] Justin Kendall: Unless Dallas blonde catches fire being produced, you know, out of state, but it's something that we have seen three times now from Monster. And you have to wonder what their, that elk strategy really is in craft at this point. beyond HiLi and Dales. You know, we've seen this happen before where essentially these brands become, they're not contract produced, but they're essentially ghost brands, right? So like Platform is a ghost brand, assuming that it's still in production. They recorded 15,000 barrels last year, according to the Brewers Association, but then, you know, Magic Hat, or something like that, you know, that had like a storied history, and is now just it in a pyramid or like, just hanging by a thread.

[00:16:57] Jessen Fante: Yeah, I mean, it's been interesting to watch monsters, the Valk strategy take shape, because they're, I mean, I don't want to call them monster branded, but like they're homegrown FMBs, you know, Nasty Beast and the Beast Unleashed. Those, I believe, the last scan data that I saw, you know, a month ago was those two were outselling the Canarchy, like quote unquote traditional beer brands. And I don't think the distribution on those FMBs is the same as the Canarchy family. So it's almost interesting to be like, I don't, what did Monster really want with Canarchy?

[00:17:34] Justin Kendall: I think it was the facilities and the alcohol permits and all that infrastructure was number one. And we've seen that in other deals. I mean, Sapporo, they got stone, but they also got bi-coastal brewing facilities.

[00:17:52] Jessen Fante: I mean, and, you know, we saw, you know, not too long after the Monster Cane Archie deal, you know, Three Weavers founder Lynn Weaver bought her brand back. I mean, do you think there's potential for John Reardon to want to do this with Deep Ellum? I don't know. He's been through the ringer here, so.

[00:18:07] Justin Kendall: I sent it to him and I told him, when you buy it back, let me know. He laughed. So yeah, those stories are available, plus comprehensive craft production data, largely from Zoe, news on Chris Herron stepping down as CEO of Creature Comforts and Adam Beauchamp taking over, and our latest Around With feature featuring the Brewers Association's Nancy Johnson. But before we close out with our conversation, our trio of conversations, Let's play another round of tabbing out. And Eminem has a new video and a new single. It features a time portal traveling Slim Shady wearing a Bud Light shirt. It also features some prominent product placement for Liquid Death. Are you buying another round or tabbing out on these obvious product placements having an effect on these brands?

[00:19:09] Jessen Fante: This is a good question. And I don't think these things are gonna have any meaningful lift for the products involved, no.

[00:19:17] Justin Kendall: I just wonder about the crossover between like art and commerce. And I don't mean to sound like a sweet summer child here. And I know I do it because like, I'm watching this video, and it's just like, everything jumps out of paid for, paid for, paid for, paid for, you know, and it's like, They even have like a Bud Light lyric in there. Like I can't remember. Something about perks and a Bud Light shirt. But it totally read to me like this is an advertisement more than it is like... a song at this point. So he's looking at me like I'm a fucking idiot.

[00:19:53] Monday Night: So I think I'm probably just like jaded because that's like, I don't know. All the content I've consumed for as long as I can remember has been filled with product placement. So I expect it everywhere. And they become so blatantly obvious with it. Was it like the new Mean Girls movie that came out got shade because they had super obvious elf like lip gloss placement throughout the whole movie. And it actually helps the lip gloss, I think. It was already kind of viral on TikTok, but it's just everywhere all the time. The freaking Twilight movies had like a super obvious car advertisement through them that like everyone makes fun of in my generation because it's like we watch them all the time and it stands out. So I don't know, it seems like such just a part of any piece of media to me now that it is just part of what you sign up for.

[00:20:46] Jessen Fante: Like if this is going to be one of the last ways that media can make money, then I think we, I don't want to say root for it, but accept it.

[00:20:55] Monday Night: I was reading something about how like AI is also helping with product placement where you don't even need to have a product there anymore. You can just kind of like use AI to integrate whatever you want into content. And you can curate things based on what the person who is consuming that content is. So that could change based on where you're watching or what your consumer demographics are. So it's only gonna get worse.

[00:21:23] Jessen Fante: Yeah. I mean, within the context of the conversation that we have, I think it's pretty obvious what Bud Light is doing.

[00:21:31] Monday Night: We talked about this a little bit where Post Malone had a song that came out last year where he normally had before it always referenced Bud Light and he had referenced High Nudes. They're like, oh, does this mean his partnership with Bud Light is over or something? But then a new ad with Bud Light came out. He's in Bud Light commercials. Yeah. Post that song and everything too. I don't know if there's any exclusivity in any of these deals either.

[00:21:54] Jessen Fante: Yeah. What an interesting little six degrees of Kevin Bacon separation here, like Post Malone does Bud Light, Eminem does Bud Light, Post Malone duets with Taylor Swift, who I'm sure is pretty much is, at least in fan base terms, as far as you can possibly get from Eminem. So the world is an interesting place.

[00:22:19] Justin Kendall: It is, and for more conversations stick around for three of them. Up next, Monday Night Brewing's Jeff Heck, followed by the new owners of Cicerone and a conversation with Rob Day. This is Justin Kendall, and I'm here at the Craft Brewers Conference. We are on the trade show floor. I'm joined by Jessen Fante. And our next guest is the co-founder of Monday Night Brewing in Atlanta, Jeff Heck. What is up? Hey, great to see you guys. It's great to see you. So you've been busy. You've opened your What, fifth and sixth tap rooms in the last year? Just recently, you opened Knoxville. Why Knoxville? So, as you mentioned, we've opened two in the last year. Charlotte was the one we opened last summer. And Knoxville was a rational next step, too. We really have targeted metro areas that have some good density, but also really thriving city centers and communities. And Knoxville is just a place that's, it's beautiful. There's a lot of great breweries that are already there, but also we found like a really awesome project that we got to be a part of. So we're in a hundred year old bakery that's been renovated into a food hall. So it's about 75,000 square feet. And we get to be a part of this revitalization. It's been closed for decades. And so now it's opening up to this new food hall that's really preserving a lot of the original building, a lot of the culture behind the place. And we're getting to be a part of a great community of a lot of other purveyors of great food. And they're small, independent restaurant operators. So two weeks in, it's been amazing.

[00:23:56] Jessen Fante: I feel like a food hall in a hundred-year-old, previously decades-long abandoned bakery sounds like it is like just primed for ghost stories. Exactly.

[00:24:06] Justin Kendall: Yes. Yes.

[00:24:07] Jessen Fante: Is there a ghost baker?

[00:24:08] Justin Kendall: So there's not a baker, but there is. The piece of lore about the bakery is that there was a old carousel, like a small little kids carousel that the bakery would rent it out to families for birthday parties. And it disappeared, but it's lure in Knoxville. So that for decades, people have been trying to find where's the Kearns carousel, the Kearns bakery carousel. So if there's any listeners out there who have a lead on the Kearns carousel, give us a call.

[00:24:34] Jessen Fante: This is amazing. And can one of your first beers in the new spot be like missing carousel IPA?

[00:24:39] Justin Kendall: Something like that. Yeah. That's a good one.

[00:24:41] Jessen Fante: Thank you. It's like I know things.

[00:24:44] Justin Kendall: It's not quite, that spot is not quite as primed for ghost stories as our Nashville location.

[00:24:48] Jessen Fante: How many ghosts are in your brewery?

[00:24:50] Justin Kendall: So listen, the Nashville location is in a hundred year old slaughterhouse.

[00:24:54] Jessen Fante: Stop it.

[00:24:54] Justin Kendall: Seriously. So you want to talk ghost stories, they got to start in Nashville and then maybe they can, I don't know what it is with Tennessee and our ghost stuff, but we found some really cool spaces in Tennessee. Do you throw like awesome Halloween parties? We throw a great Oktoberfest.

[00:25:09] Jessen Fante: Okay. Well, I think you're going to have a spooky Octoberfest.

[00:25:13] Justin Kendall: So tell us a little bit at the Charlotte location, what you've learned since you opened there, what you were looking for in that market. I mean, it's a pretty prime craft market. So to go in there, what's it take to, you know, be sort of local when you're not local? Yeah. The thing in my mind that has changed a lot over the last five to eight years in terms of local is we find that we can earn the trust and credibility in a local market. as long as we are entering into the local community and culture. And so having employees who are deeply connected to Charlotte, having a location that's been really well researched, bringing in, we do like a weekend bazaar where we'll bring in pop-ups from local artisans. So from our experience so far, that's made a huge difference in terms of being able to get the buy-in from local community. So that's certainly been a huge part of it. The other thing with Charlotte, is again, is a lot of like real estate, like we find a space in a location that's kind of deeply connected to the city. So we're in the south end, right near this kind of walking path that cuts through the city near a light rail station. And we found an acre of outdoor space where there are high rises going up around. So it's just a really unique space that the neighborhood is looking for and craving. And so on a spring afternoon, it's packed with people just hanging out outside. So it's serving this dual purpose of kind of a public park and a new food establishment. So we have pizza. Our pizza program is there, as well as our beer.

[00:26:50] Jeff Heck: What about ghosts?

[00:26:51] Justin Kendall: No ghosts so far, though it's in an old mechanic's shop. So probably there's probably the ghost of some old mechanic creeping around there somewhere.

[00:27:01] Jessen Fante: Yeah, I mean, I think we just convinced the rest of the country that Monday Night is the spooky brewery. You're welcome. So, I mean, Charlotte's a really interesting place to me because the craft beer scene absolutely popping off. But there's a good mix of brewers who started elsewhere and are moving in and are finding success. And there's also like homegrown breweries that are doing really well. So what's the relationship in the community like in Charlotte.

[00:27:26] Justin Kendall: Yeah, you're right. It's a really interesting kind of community there. And I think in part, it's been spawned by the laws and regulations in North Carolina. So it's just a lot easier to operate as an out of state, as a taproom, or if you're in the state to operate multiple taprooms as well. So there are a lot of people that have multiple taprooms in Charlotte. So that's been part of the driver of that. And because it's been, you know, North Carolina's for so long been the East Coast Colorado in craft beer, there's just a receptivity and an openness to new and different things. So we found people nothing but friendly and excited, so. That said, it is a crowded market. And frankly, so is every other market that we're in. I mean, in Atlanta, when we opened our original location, we were the first brewery to get Anchor Brewing license in the city of Atlanta in 17 years. And now there are probably a dozen breweries within a couple miles of us. And so it's a different landscape than it was. I think we really try to take the posture when we go into anywhere new that we want to be a part of the community. There are certainly times when everybody's not excited for some competition. And I get it. And we don't hold that against anybody. And at the same time, we always want to be good partners and work together with everybody else who's in this really collaborative industry. You've got six. We're seven. Well, I think after two in a year, our team needs to take a little bit of a breather. And also, I think we're at a point where we need to really start thinking about what kind of infrastructure do we need to build in order to both sustain the long-term success of the locations we have, as well as think about, and then how do we build something that's scaled for continued growth. So, we're entrepreneurs, we've always got something up our sleeve. I don't have any bombs to drop in this conversation, but I promise you, you'll be the first to get any kind of tip as soon as I'm ready to let go of it.

[00:29:17] Jessen Fante: I'm going to hold you to that.

[00:29:18] Justin Kendall: Done. Deal.

[00:29:19] Jessen Fante: And potentially haunt you if it doesn't happen. So we've established you're in a bunch of different states. What's the main thing that brewery owners need to know before they start looking to expand outside the confines of their home state?

[00:29:32] Justin Kendall: Number one is have a strong identity, both in terms of your brand, but also in terms of your culture and what's important to you. Part of the reason we went slowly and methodically at first into, so Birmingham we opened after we'd been around for you know, seven years. And then Nashville was the following year, then Charlotte and then Knoxville. And so we really felt like it was super important to go slow and make sure that our locations that are outside of our home market are not only well supported, but also culturally aligned with what the rest of the company is and who we are as people. So that's number one. Number two is know the laws and regulations, like do your homework. Every state is totally different. We operate in four states. Every state has their own weirdness. And so that's huge. And then third, I would say is take your time picking a site and understanding what is it you're looking for in a location? What are your expectations for sales? How are you going to build the right team? Just having a really, really good plan. Sound advice. It's always a pleasure, Jeff. Thanks for doing this. Thank you, guys. Great to be with you. This is Justin Kendall from the Craft Brewers Conference. And right now I am joined by Jason Pratt. Thanks for being here, Jason. Absolutely. Thanks for having us. And Daniel Emdek. Thanks for being here.

[00:30:53] Rob Day: Thanks. Nice to see you.

[00:30:54] Justin Kendall: And you are the proud new owners of the Cicerone certification program. Congratulations. Thank you so much.

[00:31:01] Rob Day: Yeah, we're excited.

[00:31:02] Justin Kendall: So you're not strangers to the program, but how long has this plan been in place to acquiring?

[00:31:10] Rob Day: Yeah, I mean, I think as we look through our past, just beer education and teaching and training was always kind of the most passionate part of our jobs. So we've always been connected as we work through the levels of the program as graders, proctors, instructors, things like that. And kind of we're just at a crossroads deciding what to do next in the beer industry. And we kind of always talked about, you know, what if we took over Cicero? And there's some cool things we have some ideas for and every phone call between us would kind of end that way. And then one day we said, well, let's just let's just email Ray and see if he's ready to do this. And, you know, six months later, working through everything that goes into that, you know, here we are. So it started as an idea that came to fruition.

[00:31:48] Jeff Heck: Yeah. It was a how serious are you about this? Like, I'm kind of serious. Are you serious about this? Yeah, let's do it. So what was it about the program that made you want to invest in it? There are a couple things that really excited us. One, for us, like Dan mentioned, our favorite parts of our jobs were the parts that we were kind of leading beer education. And that's a huge thing. I think it's such a boost for the industry when beer education is, you know, kind of alive and well. So that's a big part of it. But the thing that excited us too, I think, is that a couple things. One, it's a global organization, right? We've got people in 90 different countries right now with some level of certification, which is really exciting. We just had our first certified Cicerone in Estonia, which was really cool to see just last week. So the global footprint is great. So we've got a chance in a far-reaching program. It's always been, to us, the gold standard for what education really is supposed to be in the industry. And that rising tide lifts all ships, right? So having something that's able to impact the industry at such a foundational level was important for us. And we're really excited about it.

[00:32:46] Rob Day: You know, it's all those things. It's just getting to do what you love every day. And, you know, it's meant so much to us over the years. It's opened so many doors for us career-wise and, you know, kind of the studying for the master exam. I think anybody who's gone through that would say they have kind of a love-hate with that study process. But some of the most, like, fun, as I look back, memories of my life is just going down that rabbit hole and just learning what there is to know about beer and how much more you can know. So I think As we talked about that, it was like, you know, how does that training piece come back into our life full time? And, you know, this is something that we've always thought was, you know, this is a job for us, but it's also kind of a responsibility to carry on what's been established here. And so that we look at it that way as something that's both exciting, but also there's kind of an obligation for us, we feel, to kind of continue to raise the bar and keep the standard where it is and take it higher from where it's been and what all the great work Ray and his team have done over the years.

[00:33:42] Justin Kendall: Now that you have invested in it, though, when do you start to put your own personal touches on it? Like, what do you want to add that maybe wasn't there before or tweak that you think would really improve the program?

[00:33:54] Rob Day: you know, the first month here has been just, you know, learning where everything is, just getting our feet under us and meeting with the team and all those things. And I think, you know, CBC was a big kind of, we all knew we're going to be out doing this meet and greet and great week. And so it's kind of like after this, we have some activation plans on just new projects and new ways of doing some things. So I think there's, A couple things, connecting the dots really on the relevance of beer education and how you can use it commercially to where it helps sell more beer, whether you're a salesperson, whether you're a taproom employee, whether you're in marketing. We have people in a diverse set of roles, so I don't know that those dots have always been connected directly with what the program's messaging was, and I think there's an opportunity to make sure, especially given some of the state of the industry recently, that education is great, in good times and in bad. And you could argue in bad times, it's an even better ROI because of what you can get. You're competing that much harder for all the sales and things like that. So I think just creating some new messaging around that, as well as some new products. We just rolled out one called Selling with Cicerone. which is targeted at brewery and distributor sales folks, which is again, taking that Cicerone knowledge and then now activating that in real life. And we've kind of lived that through some of our beer education roles, and we're excited to pass that on to others. And I'll let Jason talk about some other stuff.

[00:35:12] Jeff Heck: Yeah, and I think the other part of it is really the community engagement part, right? So I think that there's an opportunity to make sure that we're lifting up kind of people that are doing the cool stuff in the industry, celebrating those wins with people, and creating a real community of Cicero's, right? We've got such a large group of people. Getting a chance to get together, celebrate each other, and kind of put a spotlight on those folks is a really important piece of it that we want to make sure we're doing.

[00:35:33] Justin Kendall: You mentioned it being more important in a challenged time, and we're clearly in a challenged time. How do you drum up interest for the program when you have an industry that is facing some headwinds?

[00:35:47] Rob Day: Right. I think it's, again, seeing that the investment in education doesn't necessarily need to be a huge amount of dollars. I think we have an approachable kind of program in a lot of ways. and some turnkey ways to activate it. But I think no matter where you're at, whether you're a brewery competing for tap handle placements or a distributor that has collected a ton of brands during the beer industry boom, now more than ever, I think it's important to be able to differentiate those things, talk about them in a relevant way. And then the other side of it is keeping passionate, engaged people. The end game with education is like the consumer experience of beer in the category is as good as it can be. And I think we all are ramming our heads against the wall on how to get that momentum going. And so I think it's just pointing that out. And like I said, it doesn't have to be like so cost prohibitive to just introduce the culture of education and beer knowledge into your business model, and then how you talk about how to activate it. So I think that's what we're trying to do.

[00:36:45] Jeff Heck: And give people the tools that they need to do their job, right? And feel empowered to do the job that they need to do. And I think that that's something that beer education can do. One of the things we've always kind of talked about is that it's really hard to be passionate about something that you don't know anything about, right? When you think about the things that you're most passionate about, it's typically the things that you spend the time to get to know. So unlocking that door and kind of lowering that barrier for entry for folks, I think is a huge piece of helping people have a door into the category, right? And kind of opening that up and allowing people to really kind of celebrate being in beer with us.

[00:37:15] Rob Day: Can I add one more thing? I think as we, you know, one of the things you said about, you know, what made you want to invest in this, I think kind of aligned with this is there are still a lot of industry believers that are still, you know, participating in the Cicerone program at a high level. And I think that for us was a telltale sign of, okay, there's still people that understand how relevant and important this is. And even given the challenging times they're investing in it, let's play on that and continue to try to go find out more of those folks and be able to seek them out.

[00:37:43] Justin Kendall: A lot of folks in the industry are obviously aware of the program and knowledgeable about it, but if you can reach sort of the everyday craft consumer, what does that open up for you?

[00:37:54] Rob Day: Right. Yeah. You know, we know we got to do our part to do the heavy lifting, to continue to build value and notoriety for the program. And that's kind of been our, our conversation is we can roll out whatever we want to roll out, but ultimately like we want to make this as relevant and so that we're building the value for people as we go. So they go, well, what am I getting out of this? You know, we're doing our part to continue to build that up.

[00:38:16] Jeff Heck: Yeah, and making Cicerone a household name, to your point, right? I think there are other industries that have experts in their field that, you know, are widely recognized. And you say, you say Sommelier and people know what that is, right? And I think we want Cicerone to be that same level of recognition, right? And continue to make sure that we're building the program to that level.

[00:38:33] Justin Kendall: Well, Daniel, Jason, thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

[00:38:36] Rob Day: Thanks for having us.

[00:38:39] Justin Kendall: This is Justin Kendall, and I'm live to tape at the Craft Brewers Conference in Las Vegas. And our next guest is someone that I've worked pretty closely with over the years. You were at Jack's Abbey, you were at Lord Hobo, and now you're a free agent. So welcome, Rob Day. It's so good to be here. Thanks, Justin. I'm pleased to have you. I mentioned you're a free agent. What are you looking for next? Right now, I think we are in an interesting time in craft beer where, of course, everyone talks a little bit about the numbers and doom and gloom. But to me, it is the most competitive and puzzle-driven marketing we could possibly be getting into. So I believe there's going to be some people who really roll up their sleeves and do some of the most creative marketing we've seen in this business to date as a now mature industry. Everyone talks about connecting with consumers and it's gotten harder and harder and harder. And now is the time to be really clever and start solving those problems and doing the hard work to get there. And to me, that's probably the most exciting thing we could be doing. So yeah, I'm working with a few clients now, open to some others, but I'm a problem solver and I'm a traditional marketer prior to beer. And I've been doing this for seven years and I don't want all of this knowledge to go to waste. Yeah, neither do I. So it's great to have the connection. And I think that you're right. This is a moment that isn't going to solve itself and it's going to take some creativity. And so why do you think that we've gotten to the point that we're in where, I guess, you know, when you think about it, there wasn't a lot of marketing that needed to be done in those middle 2010s. Correct. And now we are at that point. And it's definitely, you know, post pandemic where You see the shift and like a lot of people got comfortable at home. And now it takes more to speak to those people. They're not just coming to you. So what are you seeing as like a big need or a solve there? Yeah, I think that's the epitome of how we've evolved right now. And it happened a little bit faster because of the pandemic. But this was already occurring. So you mentioned like the early 2000s, beer was novel. So you think about marketing, you think about your why first. Why do you exist? Why does anybody care? In the early days, why was just because it was interesting. It was new. Craft beer wasn't everywhere. There weren't four breweries in a small town. So just exploring even a poorly lit factory space with not working bathrooms, that was cool. And that was fun. That was your why. We're making better beer than the Goliaths. The David Goliath story is a great myth to tell. And this experience is something you've never had before. That's all gone now. So we've nearly 10,000 breweries. The experiences are getting upped everywhere you go. And then outside of beer, the competition has evolved to an extreme level in every type of substance, non-alcoholic, THC, every possible category is now getting more and more competitive and more choice than ever. And our consumers, we were talking about it earlier, no one has one social media app this day. They don't have one network. So everyone was bemoaning the days of like, oh, network TV is gone. It's hard to find people. I have to advertise on cable. I have to buy out of home. I'm going back in time because I don't think what we're dealing with is unique. Other industries have all been through this. And now that our consumer's attention is divided, and it's not just cool enough to be a brewery, you have to find that connection point and reestablish your why. And I think that's what a lot of people are coming to terms with, because it happened pretty quickly, but it was already happening around them. And when that hits, It can be a harsh reality. You mentioned sort of the blueprint that we saw for a lot of craft breweries out there, which was like industrial space. Does the bathroom work? Sometimes, you know, that sort of thing. And it was a vibe and it worked, but. it's definitely shifted where that doesn't work for everybody now and Bart Watson pointed it out today and he pointed it out last year and he probably pointed it out the year before but he's talked a lot about reinvention so What do you see as a potential next step evolution, you know, reinvention out there for craft brewers? Yeah, I think mainly it's going to start with that introspection, understanding why you exist and what matters and where you, where you're strongest, where do you have permission to play? And we're not really comfortable with that idea yet. Breweries sometimes want to do everything. We saw this a bit with seltzer. It got hot, everyone jumps in. It wasn't right for everybody. Being comfortable and curated in what you do and focused is going to be super important because the end result of quality versus quantity on the business side is going to matter a lot more. I think we get that on the beer side now. Fewer beers, higher quality, a lot more attention to detail and the education is there for it. I think that evolution is coming to the business side where You might look at reviews as a way to test your space, but most of the people are in the middle. They don't leave reviews, but they leave with a feeling. And are they coming back or not? And in your own space, you can create that brand experience that you're trying to tell. And it's not only powerful for your hospitality business, But those people leave with this innate feeling of who your brand is, and they are more likely to advocate for you outside of your space and purchase your product off shelf. And wherever and however you can create that connection point, media, advertising, real life experience, events, sponsorship, whatever it is, figure out that mix for each business and being focused on it. I think that's where we're heading. I think you touched on something there that I think is going to be so important in the next wave, which is experiential. Yes. And I think a lot of folks need to do that introspective work to look at their space, to figure out what they want to offer, you know, what experience they want to give beyond, you know, come in, get a flight, sit on a, you know, hard chair.

[00:44:35] Rob Day: Yeah.

[00:44:36] Justin Kendall: I think that there's there's got to be a lot of introspection in that. And I think that there are folks who are doing it well. I mean, if you look at Talaya as an example. Phenomenal example. Yeah. I think that that's one of those standout examples of providing an experience that is different, you know, catering to an audience that doesn't typically get catered to. Yeah. And you nailed it. And if you hear them talk, they're experience driven. They know why they exist. They know who they're talking to. And they try to bring it to every aspect of their business. and you can see it working. And that's what people really need to be doing more than ever. We mentioned that you're a free agent. Are you looking to stay in this space? Are you looking for like the nine to five, which I'm sure isn't nine to five really. It never is. In like one of those positions or are you comfortable doing something like consulting, you know, and taking sort of a step back and, you know, just reimagining what your work has been in the past? That's actually sort of what I've come to terms with this week. I think my longest strength is in development. It's tough for me to hand something off and walk away. I like to see things through completion. So that'll probably be the most difficult personality thing I have to overcome on the consulting side. But I'm working with a couple of people already. I think there's a lot of help that's needed. And with stretched resources, having someone like me do a single project to tune up your team and make you more efficient going forward, That's probably the best use of my skill set in the current climate. Now, if a dream job comes up, sure, I might raise my hand for that. But I really think there's a lot of help to be done at those mid-tier companies who they know they have to come to terms with this, but maybe can't afford to hire a full director, VP of marketing level person. And they may not even need it. So maybe a fraction of my time helping those people is really the best use. I think in times when things get tough, I think that there's a knee-jerk reaction that marketing is usually one of the first parts of the business that gets pulled back from when really, you know, that outward selling yourself needs to be there. So what do craft brand owners need to know about marketing that maybe they're not thinking about in these moments? That's an awesome question, and it could have a really long answer, so I'm going to cut that short because no one wants my marketing nerd answer. But ultimately, a lot of people see marketing as that final piece, the promotional portion, the Instagram post, the event. That's not all marketing is. To me, it's so much more important, the groundwork for that, the strategic vision and understanding how you create connection points. So marketing is four Ps. It's product, price, promotion, and placement. That's the basic first thing they teach you in marketing class. And understanding the strategy that leads to those outward expressions of your brand is probably the most important thing a professional marketer could bring to the table. Every brewer starts a little bit intuitive on that nature. They created this business, they know why they exist. Over time, that can get lost and muddy. And that's where professional help can just to refocus you or tune you up or catch you up. And a lot of people know how to promote themselves. They know in those first two years, especially, what got them motivated? Why are they here? Why are they excited about this? And they can sell themselves, like it's their story. And then business gets bigger and they kind of lose touch with it. And you see it all the time. And it's not for lack of trying, but that's where I believe the professional marketing strategy aspect is where they can really change how they approach the category of marketing and be stronger business people. I think that's a great place to leave it, Rob. Thanks for doing this. Absolutely. Really appreciate it. Good to be here. And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Jess for coming back. Thanks to Zoe for all she does. Thanks to our audio wizard, Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.