Brewbound Podcast: A Beverage-Alcohol Legal Update with Nutter’s Bev-Alc Team

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Next on The Brewbound Podcast, a pre-Labor Day legal update. Hello and welcome to The Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:46] Jessica Infante: I'm Jessica Infante. And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:50] Justin Kendall: And happy Labor Day to everyone out there. We are actively working toward getting that fourth day off for Labor Day. By the time you're listening to this, hopefully we'll be off doing anything other than work, taking advantage of Labor Day. Thank you, unions.

[00:01:06] Jessica Infante: Thank you, unions. We're not in one, but we appreciate what they've done for all of us.

[00:01:11] Nichole Shustack: Yeah.

[00:01:12] Justin Kendall: So any Labor Day plans for either of you this weekend that are more exciting than mine, which is just about anything's going to be more exciting than mine?

[00:01:23] Jessica Infante: Yes, I surprisingly find myself back at the Jersey Shore, which is a long story. And I didn't think I'd be here, but now I am here. And our little hood has a really fun Labor Day weekend party. And the theme is Olympics. Every four years, it's the Olympics theme. Everybody picks a country to represent. And my family picked France. So we're trying to figure out what food we can bring. So if you have any ideas, I would love to have them. We're thinking, I'm thinking like, We'll just go easy, baguette, brie. Maybe we get some six store made crepes and fill them with tasty things for dessert. Or we can make things really difficult on ourselves and make mini French onion soups, which my mom wants to do. But I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work.

[00:02:06] Nichole Shustack: Right? Just one regular French onion soup is a lot of work. A lot of labor. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:14] Justin Kendall: Stick with the brie and the baguettes. I'm a brie guy. Maybe pick up some like Cronenberg Blanc. There you go.

[00:02:21] Jessica Infante: Nice. Zoe, what about you?

[00:02:24] Nichole Shustack: We will be at the annual Labor Day party slash cornhole tournament that we go to every year. This is like the fourth or fifth year I think going.

[00:02:36] Justin Kendall: Have you won?

[00:02:38] Nichole Shustack: I'm not one. Last year, there was a lot of controversy because two of the neighborhood children were allowed to participate and they kind of messed with everything. So there was a lot of drama. They threw a fit that they weren't allowed to like be in the rankings, but then they also could cheat and just like place it in. So it was a whole thing. We played them. We had to play the children. So it was just and I was with paired with you get randomly drawn who your partner is. And my partner was this older guy who was very nice to the children. And so I was like, we're kind of out immediately. It's very controversial.

[00:03:17] Justin Kendall: Have you like brought this up?

[00:03:18] Nichole Shustack: Oh yeah. Everyone, everyone complained last year. So because I ended up having the little kids like going to the final basically. And everyone was like, this doesn't make any sense. So there are going to be changes this year and I'm going to redeem myself. Hopefully have a good partner, but it's kind of the luck of the draw.

[00:03:36] Jessica Infante: So we'll see what happens. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Is there a kid's bracket this year? There should be.

[00:03:43] Nichole Shustack: I think that's what's going to happen is there might be a kids bracket, but it depends on how many kids there are, because there aren't like a lot of them. It's mostly it's mostly folks around my age. Lots of Lawrence's friends, like everyone comes for this party. And then the host friend, his like parents and some of their friends are the ones that hang out with their neighbors and stuff. That's fun. I think we have similar parties. Yes. Yeah. It's a good time.

[00:04:09] Jessica Infante: My neighborhood party usually ends with a very lengthy flip cup tournament.

[00:04:14] Nichole Shustack: Oh, I am better at flip cups than cornhole. Same. I would enjoy that. Come on down.

[00:04:22] Jessica Infante: Can you make French egg and soup?

[00:04:23] Nichole Shustack: I can't make that many French egg and soups. I can contribute one to your supply.

[00:04:29] Jessica Infante: Usually I make jello shots, but I think those days are over.

[00:04:32] Nichole Shustack: We have someone who makes the jello shots, so we always have jello shots. I normally end up having to bring whatever various non-alcoholic beverages people want to sample. Not sure what I'm going to do this year, but there will be a total wine trip in my future this week. Nice.

[00:04:50] Justin Kendall: Well, that sounds like exciting plans that I look forward to hearing about next week. Before we get into the business of this episode, we should talk a little bit about our featured interview, and that's with the beverage alcohol practice team at law firm Nutter, McLennan & Fish. We're going to be joined by Nichole Shustack and Isabelle Cunningham, and we cover a lot of ground, Jess.

[00:05:16] Jessica Infante: Yeah, we had a great chat with them, as we always do. But, you know, we talked a lot about crossover beverages, you know, alcoholic beverages using non-alcoholic brands, various state legal updates and DTC stuff, and potential regulations for non-alcoholic adult beverages, which would be very interesting.

[00:05:33] Justin Kendall: I don't know if there's been a lot of calls for that, but we've seen some. And I think that that's something that's going to be on our radar in the near-ish future.

[00:05:46] Nichole Shustack: Yeah, even when I've noticed, like, shopping at the grocery store or something and picking up some non-ALCs, like, the people working at the register or something aren't quite sure what to do with non-ALCs sometimes and, like, they ID you and they're like, oh, wait, this is non-ALC. So there's, I feel like there's still some, like, guidelines and regulations that people are figuring out in general, let alone on, like, the actual, like, legal level. So it's definitely something that's going to evolve now that there's so many products out there.

[00:06:15] Jessica Infante: For sure.

[00:06:16] Justin Kendall: Well, stay tuned for that. And if you liked this episode, please like, rate, review, and subscribe. We've got a couple of other plugs that we got to do. We are going to be in San Diego for the NBWA's annual convention, and we're going to be pre-gaming the opening night party with a happy hour at the Lost Abbey's church. We'll have free drinks and apps. You can register at Brewbound.com and you should

[00:06:43] Jessica Infante: Yeah, church on Sunday. Very easy to remember.

[00:06:47] Justin Kendall: Yeah, this will be the best trip that you'll, well, a little biased, but you know, this will be the best trip to a church that I think you're going to have at the NBWA annual convention.

[00:06:57] Jessica Infante: I think that's a very safe statement.

[00:06:59] Nichole Shustack: Yes. At the event. Yes. I was going to say, is it going to be better than your trip to the Satanic temple? Because I don't know. That's competitive.

[00:07:08] Justin Kendall: You're telling all my secrets.

[00:07:11] Nichole Shustack: We've talked about it on the podcast before.

[00:07:14] Justin Kendall: Yeah, yeah. There are some photos out there of me and the Baphomet. You know, when you go to Jess's home city, you've got to check in all the sites.

[00:07:24] Jessica Infante: We went to the Satanic Temple's Easter celebration this year. So it was quite a time. Great members of the community. But, you know, at Tommy Arthur's church, probably no Baphomets. But maybe I'll have a few beers and sing some church songs. You never know.

[00:07:41] Nichole Shustack: So come and see what happens. Yeah.

[00:07:46] Justin Kendall: We'll also be recording some podcasts at the event, barring Jess just breaking out into song and not being able to make it to the podcast portion. Let's all make it to Monday. How about that?

[00:07:59] Jessica Infante: Monday should be fine. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:01] Justin Kendall: We've also got Brewbound Live coming up December 11th and 12th in Marina Del Rey, California. We just announced a host of speakers. Speaking of distributors, we're going to have Rebecca Meisel from Gulf Distributing there. We're going to have Lauren Dahl-Sheeter from Dahl Distributing in my neck of the woods of Iowa. We're going to have Jennifer Grant from Markstein Sales. So we've got a loaded distributor panel coming. We've got Zach Francis from Beatbox Beverages, gonna be there to talk marketing, along with Rebecca Dayanishunas from New Belgium, the new CMO over there. And then we've got Lindsay Kunkel from Foresight Factory lined up, and we're gonna talk a lot about Gen Z's drinking habits, as well as some other generations.

[00:08:49] Nichole Shustack: Yeah, Brewing Live is shaping up. There's a lot of awesome folks coming this year. So we always say we're excited, but like, It keeps being exciting this year. We meet it.

[00:09:01] Justin Kendall: Yeah, we made it more than last year before, but, you know. Trust us. You can get your tickets now, get those at Brewbound.com. It's a good time. We're going to have one-on-ones with Whole Foods and Extra Mile. So you can sign up for the possibility of meeting with them. We're looking to add more one-to-ones. Stay tuned for more information there. We're going to have parties, networking. There's some good stuff going on here. sells itself. Yeah. So with the business done, let's get to the news. And we'll start with your story that hit earlier this week, Jess, and that is left-hand brewing is crowdfunding to build a craft platform.

[00:09:50] Jessica Infante: Yeah. Shout out to the crew at Left Hand for spending a lot of time with me to talk through everything they have going on. But Left Hand out of Longmont, Colorado, you I'm sure are familiar with their Nitro Milk Stout. They are seeking safety in numbers. It's the sea otter corollary.

[00:10:09] Justin Kendall: Maybe that's what they'll name the platform. Are there a lot of sea otters in Longmont?

[00:10:16] Jessica Infante: No, I'm sure no.

[00:10:19] Nichole Shustack: In a landlocked state, probably not.

[00:10:22] Jessica Infante: So look, there's river otters and there's sea otters. And personally, I think river otters are a little creepy looking. It's the sea otters that you want, they're the fluffy ones. But they are seeking, you know, some other craft brands because, you know, co-founder Eric Wallace and I had a really good talk. He feels very, very strongly that it's really important to keep craft brands independent. And that's what he's seeking to do. He thinks that they, you know, need to shore up the business right now. with other partners to help it. And they're really in a great position to do so. Left Hand Brewery is built out to 100,000 barrels of capacity. They are definitely not using all of that right now. According to the BA's new brewer issue from this past May and June last year, Left Hand produced a little over 28,000 barrels of beer. which they've been on a journey. You know, I looked into some historical numbers, their peaks that I could find hit in 2015 at about 82,000 barrels. So quite a bit far off from that. And they're so not alone in this. You know, I asked how 2024 was shaping up and Eric said down, but he said we're in the majority, which is true. And a lot of craft brewers from the same generation that they're of, you know, like that, like early to mid nineties group, a lot of them are facing really similar challenges. They built out these national networks back when that was the thing to do. Like left-hands distributed in more than 45 states. But that's what you did back then, you know, like you just like added state after state after state. It totally predates the taproom model that has been really successful for a lot of new breweries. So they've started a WeFunder, they're looking to raise at least $1.1 million to help them with some acquisitions. And I think they're they're a little nebulous on what that could be. Like maybe it is they do acquire another brewery, or maybe they, you know, roll up together into a craft platform. I think they're really seeking to mobilize their capacity, lean on their distribution networks, and they're geographically located in a pretty good spot to do so. Longmont's just due north of Denver, where a bunch of, you know, interstate highways cross. So, you know, if you are out east and you want access to the western half of the country, they'd be a great partner to have if you're in Colorado. and you need help. Eric specifically called out a few different things that he's been hearing a lot of in the industry, which is breweries with unfortunate lease situations that they're trying to get out of. So he was specifically saying like, hey, if you had a bad land order, if you signed a bad lease, it's not working for you, get yourself out of it, come with us, we'll brew your beer, it'll be great, or at least we'll all be together. The history nerd in me, kept thinking as I was writing the story and going over my notes, that old Ben Franklin quote, like, we must all hang together or assuredly we will hang separately, which sounds bleak, but we're pretty close. I mean, he called out a lot of the acquisitions that have happened over the past decade. I'm sorry, I feel like I've been rambling at you guys, but.

[00:13:15] Justin Kendall: This is something that I've thought about and we've talked about and we've kind of gone over. It's like when you look at the acquisitions of the mid 2010s up until now, it's, Which of those are successful? And you can probably count on one hand, the number of success stories versus the ones who have hit a slide. And you know, if they're a publicly traded company, their new owner has taken an impairment charge on them, write downs, you know, they've either been sold sometimes back to their previous owners, sometimes to Tilray. You can call out Tilray by name now. Oh, yeah. Or, you know, something random like Kings and Convicts.

[00:14:01] Jessica Infante: The big guys are done making acquisitions, as you just said. You know, Anheuser-Busch is not coming to save you. And you know what, I think based on our conversation with Irwin Simon, for the most part, Tilray's not coming to save you either. Irwin said they were really interested in scale. He's looking for five, six brands at a time. I believe he specifically said disinterested in the onesie twosies.

[00:14:22] Justin Kendall: He did.

[00:14:22] Jessica Infante: So the vibe I got from Eric is that, hey, onesie twosies, call Left Hand.

[00:14:28] Justin Kendall: There are onesies, twosies out there that I think are attractive, but I don't think that they're attractive to the major strategics at this point. I think they've been down that path and they're like, well, we checked our box. We have Blue Moon, Lightning Kugles, Goose Island, whatever it may be.

[00:14:45] Jessica Infante: Yeah.

[00:14:46] Justin Kendall: They're probably out on anything else. And even the remaining stuff in their portfolio, they're probably thinking, you know, we can lighten this load even more.

[00:14:56] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And Eric specifically called that out. He was like, you know, these, these deals, like they've made some people really rich, but what ultimately did these deals do for, you know, those breweries communities? Like he's super passionate about making sure that craft beer remains a force for good in local communities. And he even said, they, they think of Left Hand as being Longmont's living room, you know, and he wants it to be a multi-generational business. Like his daughters now work for the company. And they do have regular full-time, I don't know, desk or brewing jobs. I'm not exactly sure what they do, but he told me he specifically asks them to pull a couple taproom shifts a week to keep them, you know, close to the drinkers and out in the community. And the people can see that these girls that they saw grow up, like are now also working for the same family business, which I thought was a very cool idea.

[00:15:47] Justin Kendall: Yeah. And you talk about what did it do for the community or the people who work there. The only example that really stands out to me so far, and maybe I'm not thinking of something else, is New Belgium is the example of, it was an employee-owned brewery that sold and a lot of those employees benefited from the sale. And I mean, that's great to hear when that happens. Left Hand in one of those situations where they are also employee owned.

[00:16:18] Jessica Infante: Yeah, their ESOP is pretty tiny now. I want to say that Eric told me it's like less than 10% of the company, but it is there. And he really wants to be able to make sure that the employees who do own parts, you know, it's valuable to them.

[00:16:34] Justin Kendall: So we can switch gears and talk a little bit about another acquisition out there. And that was Magnolia Brewing in San Francisco, and that was sold by New Belgium to a local group, a bar owner and a vet of 21st Amendment. And really, I mean, this is a brewery that's sort of been through it. You know, they were in a bankruptcy situation in the mid 2010s. New Belgium ended up acquiring them with DeCantwell and Odebeersell. Then New Belgium bought out the remaining stake in the business when the, uh, well, I guess Lion bought out the remaining stake in the business when that transaction went down. And here we are and New Belgium is exiting Magnolia as well as that tap room that they had in San Francisco. Sort of a big move, but sort of not. I mean, it's it wasn't a focus brand for them, and it never was going to be. It was more of a passion project, I think, for like Dick Cantwell back in the day. And here we are a couple acquisitions later.

[00:17:40] Jessica Infante: Yeah, all of this makes sense. I mean, plus, like that San Francisco taproom was that wasn't a New Belgium originated thing. It had been an Australian brand in the Lion portfolio. They had opened the taproom. They rebranded it to New Belgium. And I just think we're entering an age where if you're a brewery of a certain size, a little satellite tap room, not anywhere near one of your major breweries is probably not really worth all the work that it takes to keep one of those things going.

[00:18:10] Justin Kendall: No. And we've been seeing this for years now at this point, whether it's Goose Island or Dallas Point or Lagunitas. Yeah.

[00:18:21] Nichole Shustack: Yeah. I mean, consumers have so many more options to have to like, what are they going to choose to go to? Are they going to go to something that's kind of more of a nationally recognized brand? Are they going to go something they recognize as being a more locally associated brand? Probably the latter.

[00:18:36] Justin Kendall: Totally. crazy on the end of the spectrum when you think about it, because you've got the larger crafts that had these satellite breweries and tap rooms that they're like exiting. And then you've got like the brew pubs that have struggled and a lot of them are closing. Cambridge Brewing being one that you recently reported on. That sounds like a better story than most in that regard, but we've seen all kinds of group hub closures when they were chains or not chains.

[00:19:07] Nichole Shustack: Yeah. Bart Watson has talked about the brewpub business strategy too recently and how that just alone, because you have this like food aspect has been hit particularly hard by business changes since the pandemic. And so they just have not recovered at any way that the other sort of craft beer business styles have.

[00:19:28] Jessica Infante: I mean, there's some craft brands that this works for, like specifically thinking of like a tree house or an other half. But I don't think consumers think of them as being the same size as, say, a Longinus. So yeah, there's something about it that works. There's something about it that doesn't work on the other side.

[00:19:47] Justin Kendall: I think we can wrap up real quick with a chat on Beatbox. And I had traveled to Houston for their meeting, their first national sales meeting. There was no reason I should have been there. Absolutely Zoe should have been there as we talked about on this podcast before she and I Left Hand went our separate ways to Sierra Nevada and Beatbox. And it was trippy. They had a tea garden that was straight out of Alice in Wonderland. They had mad scientists that look like Rick from Rick and Morty offering samples. It was like a carnival. They had casino games. And then they had a distributor meeting on top of that. It was Shaq there. Shaq was not there, but that's sort of the big news that came out of it is Shaquille O'Neal is going to collaborate on their new blueberry lemonade flavor and he's reinvesting the royalties from that into the business. So he's going to be an investor in the business and he's going to try and open up doors for them where they need it, if they need it. And yeah, that's a big get for them. I mean, you go from Avril Lavigne to Shaquille O'Neal. They had his shoes there, too.

[00:21:06] Jessica Infante: Oh, my God. Of course they did. I've seen him play. Like, he makes everybody else look like a toddler. He's just so big.

[00:21:15] Justin Kendall: And he's everything.

[00:21:16] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And he's, like, also made, like, a ton of, like, really smart investments.

[00:21:21] Justin Kendall: Like he's resurrecting Papa John's after that fiasco. And he's on their commercials all the time. He's on the general commercials all the time. He's probably on other things that I'm not thinking of. Icy Hot, you know, doing the shimmy shake.

[00:21:35] Jessica Infante: Mm hmm. Oh, the shimmy. He also he has like a fried chicken sandwich chain. That's right. It might just be called Big Chicken.

[00:21:42] Justin Kendall: I think it is Big Chicken.

[00:21:44] Jessica Infante: So do you remember when he was a Celtic for a hot moment and like he marked his arrival by being a guest conductor for the Boston Pops? It was great.

[00:21:54] Nichole Shustack: I don't remember that happening, but I, I do always take pride in he was a part of our history for a moment in time.

[00:22:04] Jessica Infante: I want to say it was like the same fall that I moved to Boston. So you were probably in middle school, but yeah, it was like a whole thing. Oh, and he conducted the Boston Pops at Symphony Hall on December 20th of 2010, which must have been a holiday pop show, which is one of my favorite things. But yeah, he was like super into Boston stuff for like however long he was here.

[00:22:26] Nichole Shustack: Oh, yeah. One thing you can say about Shaq is he has a lot of enthusiasm and dedicates it to whatever he is currently excited about, whether that's Boston when he came here or now beatbox or Papa John's pizza. He gets really into it.

[00:22:45] Justin Kendall: So one of the things that maybe I didn't do the connection on at first, but when I talked to Zach Francis from Beatbox, their marketing director, Shaq is a DJ and plays a lot of festivals that they sponsor as DJ Diesel.

[00:23:05] Jessica Infante: What a name.

[00:23:05] Justin Kendall: I am not really familiar with the works of DJ Diesel, but I could see where that overlap would hit. I don't know that Beatbox probably reached him in that way.

[00:23:17] Nichole Shustack: I wouldn't be surprised if that's how they first like connected or how he first kind of heard about them because that's like their bread and butter is these festivals.

[00:23:26] Justin Kendall: Well, they tried to settle on not doing a deal as Shaq, but as DJ Diesel. But then, for whatever reason, the opportunity opened up for it to be with Shaq. And I mean, a lot more people probably know Shaq than DJ Diesel. Absolutely.

[00:23:45] Nichole Shustack: I feel like that might have been a Mark Cuban advice thing, where he was like, hey, one of these names has a bit more awareness to it.

[00:23:56] Justin Kendall: And if you are a Rebound Insider, you can see the type of advice that Mark Cuban has been giving Beatbox since 2016. And famously, Mark Cuban has invested a million dollars in the business on Shark Tank. And our parting shot from this past Tuesday was an email from 2016 that Mark Cuban sent to the founders of Beatbox and just basically berating them for the strategy they were doing. And I think it's, there's a good lesson somewhere in there of keeping your top investor happy and also keeping your focus on where it needs to be.

[00:24:39] Jessica Infante: Yeah. And Mark's points were great. I think he, it seemed like. They had been sponsoring spring break type stuff and sending themselves there to go. And Mark was like, get brand ambassadors so you don't have to be everywhere because you're spending a ton of money on this. And if you're not a Brubein insider, Parting Shot is a cool feature that we do for the insider community, whether it's, you know, like an image of something that we're at or a cool product shot or a screenshot, it's just like a fun visual representation of something that we've thought has been interesting. And it's a fun way to close out those newsletters. So there is plenty of stuff that, you know, we reserve just for the insider community.

[00:25:20] Justin Kendall: We pack these newsletters every day for these insiders. And if you're just getting the free version, you're probably seeing a quarter or less of what we put into an actual newsletter. So, become an insider.

[00:25:35] Jessica Infante: Yeah, we do a lot of work.

[00:25:38] Justin Kendall: Yeah, we do. We earn our keep.

[00:25:40] Jessica Infante: We earn our keep.

[00:25:43] Justin Kendall: With that, we should probably get to our featured interview with Nichole Shustack and Isabelle Cunningham from Nutter.

[00:25:52] Jessica Infante: Joining us today are Nichole Shustack and Isabelle Cunningham of the beverage alcohol practice team at law firm Nutter, McLennan and Fish. I know Brewbound Podcast listeners are no strangers to Nicole. Nicole, it's always lovely to see you. Welcome back. How you doing? Thank you so much for having us, Jess. Oh, of course. And Izzy, it's your Brewbound Podcast debut. Welcome. How are you today? Thank you. I'm great. I'm so happy to be here. Well, we have a bazillion topics to dive into, so let's get it going. But something that we are super interested in, and I know you're both really interested in, and I know everybody else is interested in, even though we're a few years into this trend now, is the topic of crossover adult beverages. So non-alcoholic beverage brands that, through various partnerships, joint ventures, and who knows what, end up becoming alcoholic beverages. So, you know, like in recent years, we've seen an explosion in this area. So, you know, alcoholic beverages that use the brand names of popular non-alcoholic beverages, such as Hard Mountain Dew and Sunny D Vodka Seltzer. And I know a lot of this is because us millennials are slightly beaten down by the world and can use a little bit of warm, fuzzy nostalgia from the drinks of our youth. But there's a lot of things to consider. So in a recent newsletter that you guys sent out to your clients, you covered a joint commitment from several industry groups to ensure that these products would be marketed responsibly. So what does that statement entail?

[00:27:14] Isabelle Cunningham: So good question, Jess. And I think one thing that we've learned as we've kind of seen this category emerge is that while, you know, nostalgia is important from a marketing perspective, you know, it brings kind of the unique challenges, right? Legal challenges to the alcohol industry. Right. And most notably, because You're applying these traditional marketing categories and products to an alcohol beverage that's highly regulated, right? And unique in the sense that it's not available or it shouldn't be sold to a large portion of population. So, as these categories have emerged, we've seen these legal challenges kind of pop up and. A response from the industry at large, right from all tiers, recognizing the need for the industry to come together and market these responsibly, right? Both from an obvious underage perspective, right? Ensuring that these products are marketed. towards people of the legal drinking age, that they're not appealing even inadvertently to minors, but also to ensure that there isn't consumer confusion because you're trying to strike the right balance between both capitalizing on the nostalgia and the marketing of these products and the brand value but doing it in a responsible way to ensure that consumers know that they're drinking a different product than the original one, that it says it's clearly marked that it contains alcohol and that, you know, what that alcohol is. So the consumer is very well aware of what is in the products. And so when the industry kind of came together to implement these guidelines, Really, they stuck to the basics and it's to avoid those two kind of things, right? Consumer confusion and appeal to minors. So it calls for the industry at large, right? To do things and market these products in a responsible way to achieve those goals. To ensure that your products look, you know, at least from the naked eye, very different, right? Utilizing different colors, imagery. speaking maybe to the original product and still capitalizing on that of that brand equity. But ensuring that you're doing it and again, a responsible way by utilizing some techniques to differentiate the products, marking them clearly that they contain alcohol. So that's obvious when they're sitting at the shelf and potentially where it is allowed marketed together. So a consumer can clearly, clearly determine what is what.

[00:29:47] Justin Kendall: There was a pretty aggressive push on regulation of these items. And maybe this is just personal bias, but it seems like that has died down. Do you relate that to this sort of joint agreement? Or, you know, why is it sort of different now? Because, I mean, we've seen obvious things like Heart Mountain Dew was sort of the big one for a lot of folks. Now that that's moving to the beer network, maybe that's died down a little more.

[00:30:17] Isabelle Cunningham: Yeah, so, Justin, it's an interesting thing and I always notice that the alcohol industry is so cyclical. And I think it's because a large part of that. is because when a new product category emerges the industry at large always has this moment of like panic right. Like oh no the sky is falling. This is going to change everything. And I think you know a lot of it is as new players kind of enter into the alcohol industry. Right. them not being aware of how highly regulated it is and not knowing all of the nuances of the laws and regulations that control these products. So there's a little bit of a lag, I think, with the industry kind of waiting to see how the new players are going to incorporate. And once I think this agreement was kind of decided on, I think the industry kind of took a breath a little bit because I think for the vast majority of the new players kind of entering into the crossover product space, they are doing it responsibly and they care about this very much and they want to ensure that their products are confusing consumers or marketed towards underage drinkers. So there's always that panic point in the beginning where I think the industry kind of embraces for the worse. And then as things kind of play out, right, and the category ages, I think that time will tell kind of how the industry comes and ensures that the marketing and the new players mostly are kind of abiding by the rules. And I think that's very much the case here. And that's what we've seen over with crossover products. Largely, you know, people want to comply with the rules, right? And they're very well aware and very, you know, they do their due diligence to ensure that, you know, they understand the rules and regulations regarding alcohol products. And they're adapting and really trying to meet that.

[00:32:16] Justin Kendall: I think what's interesting too is that panic is matched by the excitement for the product. By the time like the regulation comes in, the excitement for the product is often like leveling out or on the decline. So you've got that push, pull, boom, splat going on at the same time as all this and it's like. What did we just go through?

[00:32:37] Isabelle Cunningham: It's so true. And it kind of happens with everything, right? It happens like back in the day with the emergence of F&Bs, right? Everybody was so worried that they were appealing to minors and, you know, that minors get a taste of these F&Bs and there'd be like tons of underage drinking. And that didn't really end up being the case. And I think you even saw a little bit with hard seltzers, right? This new category, or certainly, you know, when we went through the hard soda a few years back where, you know, the hard root beers and the traditional kind of hard sodas, this was all kind of being circulated and talked about then. And I think you're right, it definitely directly correlates with kind of the excitement of the product, right? And then kind of dies down and levels off.

[00:33:24] Jessica Infante: So are these products that crossover drinks, are they regulated any differently from other Bevalk offerings?

[00:33:32] Isabelle Cunningham: That's a good question. So it depends on the base, right? And whether it's a TTD-regulated product or an FDA-regulated product, because innately there are, you know, the labels look a little bit different and the regulations are a little bit different. For FDA products, just as a reminder, most commonly right there, something other than malt-based. So fermented hard sugars is really the most popular, which is what most of the hard seltzers have. Those fall outside of the TTB's jurisdiction. They're FDA products. For example, they don't need a certificate of label approval, and their label looks a little different, right? It requires a nutrition facts label. So yes, they're not all necessarily regulated differently, but based on their base, they could be. I think what's really interesting, right, is while the regulations are the same across, you know, all alcohol-related alcohols, I think what crossover beverages kind of touch on is the cross-section of these products which, you know, traditional utilizing the IP of a product that's not regulated, right? And what that has or what impact that has on the alcohol regulation. So, for example, utilizing brand equity of a traditional non-alcoholic product is a great marketing tool. But there are lots of things that you can do in relation to those non-alcoholic products that you can't do for alcohol products, right? And there's a little bit of natural gleaning of that. For example, the easiest thing to think about for this is slotting fees. It is perfectly legal in the non-alcohol world to pay slotting fees for soda products, or juice products, or water products. That's industry standard. It's common. Now, that is illegal for alcohol products. So when you're utilizing the IP for an alcoholic product, For something where it's again perfectly legal, you know, the crossover, the bleeding of that, right? Kind of the indirect how that works, right? Are you utilizing some of those things that are legal for the non alcohol product to. advantage, the alcohol product, is some of what states are now looking at, how that plays out. So they're not necessarily regulated differently, but I think that states are taking a little bit of a harder look at some of these products because they introduce kind of unique legal challenges that aren't present there in a standard alcoholic beverage.

[00:36:21] Justin Kendall: So Izzy, if I'm a supplier out there and I've found the one non-alcoholic beverage that hasn't been made into an alcoholic beverage yet, what are some best practices for me? And is there a size, a business model, a network that is better suited for these types of products?

[00:36:41] Brewbound Podcast: I mean, I think you kind of have to outline the responsibilities of everybody involved. So you have the supplier's responsibilities and that's going to be the labeling, the marketing, the sort of promotion around the product. That's going to be your first line of defense. And then, you know, working obviously with the brand owner who you have identified as having, you know, some equity in their marks that might be valuable in the alcohol space. and working with them and their team and understanding what's important to them and how you guys can collaborate in a responsible way and in a way that still acknowledges that this is your product and you're the manufacturer and you have a whole host of responsibilities that you are carefully monitoring and following and selling the product. And then you sort of flow that down to the wholesaler. And that's when you can get into, you know, the merchandising obligations and the, you know, trade practice considerations that certainly the owner of the mark probably isn't particularly aware of, although maybe now they're, if they're entering this late in the stage, then they may have a little bit of a, a sense about, you know, what their obligations are with respect to selling this product. But I think it's about sort of outlining responsibility and having a game plan through each stage. So whether you as a supplier, you're going into it, you're labeling it in a way that is mindful and thoughtful to ensure that you're both one, not obviously, you know, targeting children, but that, you know, you're adding on that extra 21 plus band around the top, you know, maybe marketing pushes you a little bit, but throw it on there. It's not going to hurt you. It might actually help you. You might be in a label review process where a state says, oh, well, you have this extra added on 21 plus logo here. I like that. I think I'm going to approve it because of that. So having those conversations internally at the supplier tier and then flowing down from wholesaler to retailer and working on the merchandising elements where it's going to sit in the store and just sort of having a game plan like that as you go into this process. instead of trying to be reactionary and trying to, you know, send your label out there and now you're in all of these needs corrections and you're in all of these sort of long protracted disputes with states about what's on your label. So being proactive as much as you possibly can and understanding what, you know, what everyone else is facing, using all those sort of a use case, like, you know, this person faced this, so I'm going to throw this on my label or I'm going to take this off my label because I saw that so-and-so got dinged for it. In some ways, it's tough to be late to the party sometimes, but it can also be good because you can get to market faster because you can learn from everyone else's mistakes and missteps.

[00:39:15] Justin Kendall: We want to switch gears and talk about non-alcoholic adult beverages for a few minutes. It's been one of the few growth areas in the beer category of late, but we've seen an increase in the number of groups calling for greater regulations and guardrails around the sales of these products. How do you see this playing out at a legislative level?

[00:39:40] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, I think that the non elk expansion is another great opportunity and Nicole and I talked about this earlier for FDA and TV to sort of. reinforce their continued working relationship. You know, they have a great history of sort of deferring to each other. You know, they have very focused expertise. I mean, FDA obviously has an incredible breadth of things that it's responsible for. And TTV has an incredible wealth of knowledge about alcohol specifically. And so I think, you know, as they have with seltzer and as they have with cider, this is another chance for them to sort of you know, come back together and we would love, I think industry would probably love to see some, maybe industry guidance, some informal tips about, you know, product safety that things that, you know, alcohol manufacturers aren't really necessarily having to think about because bacteria can't grow in alcohol. So, you know, when you're starting to produce a product that has some product safety considerations that you're not really used to confronting, Some guidance from FDA, some guidance from other trade organizations that are sort of in tune with these issues would be really helpful. I think the growth of the category is going to inherently drive regulation ultimately, whether it's something formal that's coming out. I don't know that I would expect that, but just some sort of tips, guidance. Again, I hope it's not reactionary. I hope it doesn't come from some sort of consumer exposure or sort of health and safety issues. or something like that, I would love for it to be, you know, sort of forward thinking and helping people who are trying to enter the space, particularly those brands that make alcohol as their kind of bread and butter and want to expand into the category. You know, I think a lot of very large non-alcoholic brands right now, that's their focus and that's all they do. So they are, you know, adept at that. They are well aware of the pasteurization processes and, you know, other sort of food safety considerations that your typical brewer might not be aware of, particularly a small brewer. And so, you know, as more people want to wander into this category, it would be great if there was some guidance, even if it's informal. So I think it'll come, but who knows when.

[00:41:49] Jessica Infante: What are some like best practices for merchandising NA beer and other adult NA drinks? Because I think this can be somewhat similar to the crossover beverages situation.

[00:42:00] Brewbound Podcast: Absolutely. Yeah, that was great. It's a great segue. It's a lot of the same things, you know, obviously the sort of targeting children and that sort of issue is a little bit quieter in the space, although, you know, There have been some conversations about non-alcohol as kind of an introduction to alcohol and how that kind of interplays. But ultimately, the guidance is the same. You want to merchandise these products like alcohol. You want to put them near alcohol. You want to put them in the same place that you would find alcohol. I think the place where this gets a little tricky is that there are channels that are open to non-alcohol beverages that are not open to alcohol. So you can find a non-alcoholic beverage in a place that you wouldn't find even a normal alcoholic beverage So a grocery store, for example, may not allow the sale of any alcohol, but you could see a non-alcohol on the floor. And so how you merchandise and present that to consumers in a retail outlet is important. And it's tricky because there's not, you know, in a store that does sell alcohol, it can be kind of easy to place it near the alcoholic counterpart. And that's when you're really leaning on your labeling to differentiate from the alcohol version and the non-alcohol version. But in a place when there's no alcohol, it's really on all parts of the supply chain here. It's on the supplier to label appropriately. It's on the wholesaler to merchandise as best they can. And it's on the retailer as well to ensure that the labeling around the next space and that the communication to the consumer is clear about what this product is, what it contains, what it doesn't contain. So, you know, it's tricky, but it's a lot of the same themes. And it's really about giving as much information to the consumers you possibly can in as many ways as you can.

[00:43:41] Justin Kendall: If you've got a client that comes to you and they say, I'm interested in getting into the non-alcoholic beer business, what are the first questions that you're asking them?

[00:43:52] Brewbound Podcast: So the first questions that we would be asking would be, what do you do now? Are you coming to this space as a brewer? Are you coming to this space as someone who is fully operational in the alcohol space, and you're looking to add, say, a non-alcoholic brand that's playing off an existing beer? Or are you coming to this space completely green? You don't do anything in alcohol. You want to start brewing. You're going to have to become a brewer, because a lot of the TTB rules about breweries will still apply, even if you're going to de-alcoholize the product down the line. So the sort of line of questioning will wildly diverge whether or not you're set up already in the alcohol space, or you are, you know, you have an idea, you have a brand in mind, and you want to make a non-alcoholic only with it. And then obviously from there, you know, the questions will flow. So, you know, that's sort of the threshold question that we would get for someone who's looking to enter the space. The next steps with the brewers are going to be, you know, How can we help you with labeling? What are you wanting this product to look like? How can we ensure that it's sufficiently distinguishable from your alcoholic offerings? Can we work through the food safety considerations with you? You know, we need to talk about trade practice implications. Sometimes your behaviors are going to be tied to your activities as a licensee. It doesn't matter that you're selling a product that's not. an alcohol beverage. For the other side, we're going to be going way back to basics on alcohol. You're going to have to really understand the industry and sort of that baseline about what it means to be a brewer. And there are a handful of states that will still treat your product as an alcohol beverage. So you're going to have to get in tune with all of those things. And if you want to go into those markets, you're going to need to understand those issues. And if you want to be sold by a beer wholesaler, for example, then you're going to have to be prepared to sort of engage in those conversations and enter those relationships. And we'll have to talk through what the expectations are going to be there. So it's very different conversations, a lot of the same themes. But that's sort of the threshold question that we go to when we get a client who is looking to enter the non-ox space.

[00:45:51] Isabelle Cunningham: Yeah, fundamentally, Justin, so much stems from the base of the product, right? Like what you are making, are you making a product like hot water, right? That's not made like an alcohol product, right? And it's treated like a non-alcoholic product kind of universally, as opposed to something that is de-alcoholized, right? That's made exactly like an alcohol and the alcohol is extracted. Those two categories is kind of categories really drive the legal questions because they have implications basically, you know, at every stage, right? Both from what Izzy was talking about from a labeling, you know, a categorization perspective, but also from a distribution perspective, from a channel perspective, right, where it can be sold. And so really, we're going to ask, I think, fundamentally, like, exactly what the base of your product looks like, because that's going to really be the legal drivers of how that product is ki universally down the roa perspective, what do you w I think what their plans a lot of the quality issu are really, you know, I'm of them, but you know, ou The supplier is planning that this is going to be a big draft. This is going to be a big on-premise product. We would want to see definitely some testing from a quality perspective and that they have their chops from a quality perspective regarding these products. the proper testing is done, both on, you know, when it leaves the manufacturing facility, but down the road, right? Like, how self-stable is this product? And are you doing this, you know, ensuring that you're doing everything you can to ensure the quality and safety of the product? It's a whole different ballgame, right, to Izzy's earlier point with non-op products. And it's something that hasn't been Tested in a robust sense, and so there's still a lot of questions and truly the quality and the safety of these beverages out there. And unfortunately, I think this is another example just into your earlier earlier point of kind of the industry playing catch up a little bit. Right? Where, you know, it's certainly not being proactive on kind of the testing of these products. Everybody's kind of like, I don't know. But, you know, time will tell to see, you know, what the quality issues really are.

[00:48:32] Brewbound Podcast: I think that a lot of the press, I mean, as the category gains popularity, you inherently get the clickbait. sort of messaging around it. And I think a lot of that, if you dig into what these studies are really showing from the ones I've seen, obviously, it's more of a theoretical exposure and not necessarily an actual concrete risk to consumers. It's more of a XYZ bacteria can grow in a draft line that's serving nano. It's not necessarily that they're walking up to a bunch of bars in some sort of test market and doing a swab and running an analysis and saying that these risks are actually out there and consumers are taking them on. From what we've seen so far, it seems like it's more of a threat as opposed to a concrete real exposure at this juncture. Although I will say, draft non-ALC is probably the least popular format I would suspect for non-ALC consumption right now. It's probably growing along with the whole category. But yeah, that's when you dig into the studies, they seem to be more of, this is something to be aware of, but maybe not something that's beating down the door in terms of exposure.

[00:49:46] Jessica Infante: Izzy, you brought up wholesaler relationships a little bit ago, and is there anything different about those partnerships pertaining to NA beer that suppliers need to be aware of?

[00:49:56] Brewbound Podcast: Yeah, so it really depends on a lot. You know, ultimately, to Nicole's point, the base of the product is informative here as well. If it's not a non-alcoholic beverage in the state where the wholesaler that you're looking to appoint sells, Arguably, a lot of the rules and regulations that, you know, if you're a brewer, you might be accustomed to, franchise implications, all of those sorts of, you can't terminate without good cause, a lot of those rules arguably fade away. Does that mean that you shouldn't expect a wholesaler to be looking for those same kinds of protections when you come to present your product to them? Maybe not, you know, that might be something that you need to be a little bit aware of and sort of mindful of and prepared to navigate and to get yourself, you know, a good deal, but still sort of, you know, acknowledging that this is what the wholesaler expectation is. The other issue, you know, that we touched on earlier is about channel, the channel distribution. So there are going to be accounts that, you know, they might seem like a great fit, but they don't call on this account and that account can sell your product. And so you might be looking at a lot of, you know, maybe specialty distributors in places where it's, you know, not treated like a alcohol beverage. You know, there are maybe like a billion system that could sell your product. I don't think that these big wholesalers are going to call on that account. So, you know, you might be looking at some partners that if you're a brewer, you might not be overly familiar with. And the other piece of this too, is that if you are selling a product that, you know, is an existing brand, you're going to get into the brand extension conversation. you know, that conversation with your existing network can be tricky to work through. And, you know, depending on how your contract is set up, if you have one or if you don't have one or franchise implications, as well about what wholesalers are entitled to in terms of brand extensions, that can be another tricky conversation. You know, maybe you don't actually have a ton of choice and you're kind of stuck with whoever has the foolproof offering, the foolproof version. Maybe you need to go into that wholesaler and have them sell this product as well. There's a lot of moving pieces and ultimately it comes down to what your business is set up to do now, what you're doing now, what you're selling now, what brands are out in the market, and what the base of the product is. Is it an alcoholic beverage or is it a true non-alcoholic? Then we can go from there in terms of how you're going to work with your wholesalers to get the most distribution that you possibly can, but still acknowledging that there are rules and regulations that sometimes don't apply that you may have to work through a little bit with your wholesaler partner.

[00:52:31] Isabelle Cunningham: What we've noticed is that obviously your wholesalers and why it's there so much for that matter, right? Try and treat these products, right? Because it's beneficial to them. As traditional products, right? So they're negotiating products, but what suppliers need to be aware of is that you're likely limiting contractually a lot of the privileges that you have with selling these products that aren't regulated. For example, I mean, and is he brought up several of those, but. For non-alcoholic products, one of the nice things about it is that you can legally dual them, right? Meaning you can appoint multiple wholesalers to carry your products within the territory, right? So you can assign it to a traditional beer wholesaler, right? We can also assign it to a food and beverage distributor, right? That'll get it into the Williams and Sonomas of the world. So being aware of, A, how your product is categorized, And B, the states that you're distributing in, how they treat that product, both from franchise perspective and distribution and channel perspective, right, is really imperative when you're entering into new markets to ensure that you're capitalizing on all the privileges that are afforded to you with these products, because especially as an alcohol supplier, you're not used to that, right? That it's kind of a whole new world. And you have a lot more leverage than you might think you have, especially as related to, you know, traditional alcohol products. So, you know, making sure that you're aware of those and are trying to capitalize on them as much as possible is imperative for startups.

[00:54:10] Jessica Infante: So let's change gears a little bit and get into direct-to-consumer because there's been some news on this topic lately. So last week, New York Governor Kathy Hochul signed into law DTC shipping privileges for spirits and cider makers for both in-state and out-of-state producers. Why was it important for New York to grant the expansion to both groups?

[00:54:30] Isabelle Cunningham: What we're seeing with DTC is there's innately some inequity, you know, where we're starting out with the alcohol industry is there's great inequity for DTC, right? Wine has supported all of these privileges, right? And that's because of years of lobbying and getting states, right, to kind of back regulations that benefit the wine producers.

[00:54:51] Jessica Infante: And that's like 20 years, right? It's not like five. It's like a very long time.

[00:54:56] Isabelle Cunningham: It's been been around forever, right? There's a few stragglers, and there's still a few stragglers, right, who are kind of slow to the game, Pennsylvania being one of them. But eventually, you know, most states have caught on. And I think what you're seeing with the popularity, especially of spirits brands and this emergence of especially popularity of localized spirits brands, you're seeing there's a lot more pressure right for state to kind of. you know, help at least level the playing field a little bit. And a lot of that goes to the, I think, the category itself, right, of the products. Wine, it always made sense to me, right, that DTC laws for wine were what they were, right, because it's so regional, right, and it's specific, and it's made in this, you know, area, and there's you know, the consumer base is fundamentally different. You're usually DTCing, you know, something like a wine club or something from Sonoma or maybe upstate New York or something of that nature. You know, we didn't really have that for beer or spirits. And I think that the emergence of kind of this craft distilled space and, you know, cider and beer, right, and this appreciation for localized Product and being able to access that has definitely increased the pressure to make DTC a reality, you know, across the board. And so we think, you know, especially with these most recent state legislations. I think what you're seeing is states recognizing and responding to a consumer demand of being able to not only access what's in my state from a local perspective, but also being able to order from my favorite distillery and wherever, and creating an even bar just as they can for wine, almost matching what the privileges are for a category. We have the roadmap. it's just kind of, you know, it's been a slog getting there. And I don't know if it'll ever look like wine, right? DTC for spirits and beer. I think it's just inherently different. But, you know, I think it's a step in the right direction. I hope to see it continue, for sure.

[00:57:08] Brewbound Podcast: I think the other piece, too, is trying to avoid being sued because the theme right now is Dormant Commerce Clause challenges which every lawyer listening probably have a shiver down their spine thing about the Dormant Commerce Clause. But basically, you know, the theme of DTC litigation is that you're you are discriminating against me as an out of state seller and can't do that. And so trying to avoid that whole litigation theme, which is smart. I mean, it's, you know, it's an international economy, guys, let people ship across state lines, it's going to be okay. So, you know, opening it up to out of state producers and treating them in the same way that in state producers are giving them the same, you know, benefits and privileges and rights is, is important. And I think you can circumvent a lot of trouble for yourself if you just sort of start there as a baseline.

[00:58:00] Jessica Infante: So real quick, before we let you go, and I'm going to let you take the lead on this because I couldn't explain it if I wanted to, but basically PFAS, which for the longest time in my head, I was calling PFOS. And this has really only touched my life because apparently the brand of baby wipes I've been buying are now caught up in a class action lawsuit for allegedly containing them. But this thing also has the potential to impact, you know, Bev-Ox suppliers. So what if I'm a craft brewer? What do I need to know about PFAS right now?

[00:58:31] Isabelle Cunningham: Great question. And I'm going to keep it really simple because I think, please, it's simple right now, right? So PFAS, for those who have not kind of kept up on it, are the forever chemicals, right? There are certain chemicals that basically are around forever. You can't get rid of them. And one of the unfortunate things is PFAS are everywhere, right? They're in drinking water, they're in rainwater, they're in everything. And so what we're seeing, right, is this emergence of both state regulators, right, taking this issue and trying to combat the amount of PFAs out there, as well as class actions focusing on this area and bringing some cases that, you know, against really not just the alcohol industry, every industry, right? And so What we're seeing right is this like a little bit of a fever pitch right a scrambling from the industry of how to ensure that you're complying both. you know, with any applicable state regulations, because states are, have already enacted regulations against industry members that affect alcohol, and more are kind of being added every day and contemplated every day. So it's one of those things that alcohol suppliers, everybody actually in the industry, like needs to be focused on, it's coming. And, you know, whether it's going to be reporting requirements, right, of any intentionally added products, or, you know, a class action suit. What alcohol industry members need to be aware of is they have to start asking questions, right, and understanding what is in their products. And that does not just mean the liquid that is in the can, but it's the packaging and everything that touches the packaging. And it's incredibly important to ask your suppliers if they are aware of any intentionally added pizzas within the ingredients that are touching your products, whether that's the cap on your product or the strap that's holding down the palate, right? everything. And I think one of the things that suppliers can do to mitigate their risk at this stage is ask that question and incorporate in your standard agreements with your suppliers, right, across the board, whether you're buying malts, whether you're, you know, buying, you know, your cans, whether you're buying your, you know, your label, right, or the glue for your label or the glue for your boxes, right. adding some standard language into those agreements that warrant that the person that is supplying the products is not aware of any intentionally added PIVAs within whatever they're supplying you. That is at a very basic level, something that every single supplier can do today, and at least helps put this on your radar and helps put you on the right track to ensure that you're staying a little bit ahead of this curve, is unfortunate because it's going to affect everyone. There's no threshold that if you're small enough, this is going to impact you. It's going to. I think consumers as they become more aware of this are also going to start demanding it. What we're seeing is it's there at a consumer level, at demand level, but it's also being required from retailers. As soon as the retailers have this on their radar and they start asking the question and you have to warrant, for example, that your product doesn't contain PFAS before they put it on their shelves. You've got to make sure that you have all of your docs in a row or doing your best to ensure that your product doesn't have these in it. Again, I think the thing that most suppliers can do right now is to start asking every supplier, every single supplier, anything that touches your product, you know, whether there are intentionally added pifas or pivas, you know, at all that they know of are present in the product and adding some contractual language to help ensure that everybody kind of along the chain of a product is doing their due diligence and doing what they need to do in regards to this.

[01:02:44] Jessica Infante: Crazy. I mean, PFAS everywhere, microplastics everywhere. Everywhere. If you think about it too much, it hurts your brain. At least that's my personal experience. Well, you two, this has been a delight. You're so smart. You're so wise. Where can the people find you if they need to reach out?

[01:03:02] Isabelle Cunningham: Absolutely. So easiest is to email us, you know, Nicole and she stack or I Cunningham at Nutter.com or go check out the Nutter website or email us and subscribe to our newsletter, which we are issuing every now again on all the legal happenings in the industry. So any of us or we're both on LinkedIn or all the other means of communication these days.

[01:03:29] Jessica Infante: Perfect. Well, thank you both for the time. So generous. Justin, thank you for co-piloting this lovely chat with me. Joe, thank you for making sure that all of this is pleasant to the ear. And if you enjoyed this conversation, we will be back with another Brewbound Podcast episode next week. Please like, rate, review, subscribe, and thanks for listening.