Brewbound Podcast: 3 Tier Beverages’ Donn Bichsel Jr. & Mary Mills; Plus, New Belgium’s Kelly McKnight

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Next on the Brewbound podcast, we dive into data trends, people moves and innovation. Hello and welcome to the Brewbound podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:48] Zoe Licata: And I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:50] Justin Kendall: And this week, we have a pair of conversations from the Craft Brewers Conference. We were on the trade show floor there, recording future episodes of the Brewbound Podcast. And this week, we're gonna bring you two conversations. One with Tier Beverages, Donn Bichsel Jr. and Mary Mills, and they are gonna break down why... Getting a total beverage alcohol view is important. They'll get into some package trends and a lot more. And then Jess and Fonte is going to have a one-on-one conversation with Kelly McKnight, lead research and development brewer for New Belgium Brewing. I'm sure they're going to talk about Voodoo Ranger and all of the things that are happening with the New Belgium brands. And, you know, when we look at the scan data, There is one new brand on that list, and it's a New Belgium Voodoo Ranger brand, Tropic Force. So stay tuned for that. But first, we gotta plug Brewbound Live. It's coming up December 11th and 12th in Marina Del Rey, California. So we've got the first handful of speakers announced for the show, but we're gonna be adding to that in the weeks and months ahead. We got a lot of feelers out, so I don't know, Zoe, December is a long way away, and in some ways it is not.

[00:02:11] Zoe Licata: Yeah, it's somehow still coming up very fast, but we've already had some pretty big planning meetings for this that I think we continue to find new ways to have really fun, engaging conversations. And we also are going to have a new ad to the conference this year with some one-to-ones with retailers. We have Whole Foods signed up for that. potentially some more signing on as well in the future. So stay tuned for any future announcements there, but that's going to be a really awesome opportunity for people to have the ability to sign up and have direct conversations with buyers from retailers.

[00:02:49] Justin Kendall: So let's get into some of the news of the week and it was a lot of job moves. And let's start with some promotions over at Sierra Nevada. One very big one, Ellie Pressler, the VP of sales is now the chief commercial officer.

[00:03:06] Zoe Licata: Yes, we first got introduced to her in 2021 when she joined Sierra from Procter & Gamble. She was their VP of sales before this, and now she is filling this chief commercial officer position that has been empty for a few months now since the fall after Joe Whitney retired. She's just a really awesome person. She's spoken at a lot of events and is incredibly intelligent, but also so kind. So I'm excited to see that she got this promotion. And it comes on top of several other moves that have been happening at Sierra. We know they have a new CEO as of the beginning of this year. Jeff White retired last year and Ken Grossman had been serving as interim CEO for a little bit. And then they brought on Price Greenau to serve as CEO. So he's been doing that since February. Then we also have heard that there is a search for a new brand director. So Kyle Ingram, who has spoken at Rebound Live before, he has been promoted to Director of Insights and Innovation, which is a new position, and he's going to be really focused on a lot of their future innovation growth plans, as well as the stuff that's happening at that CanDo facility, which is where they're doing some co-packing of other beyond beer type of offerings. So potentially future news about who takes that brand director position.

[00:04:38] Justin Kendall: And we're going to have a conversation with Sierra to go a little bit deeper into these moves and just what their plans are for the rest of the year. So stay tuned for that. Another job move, sort of, I guess. James Watt from BrewDog is stepping down as CEO, but he is going to take the newly created role of Captain and founder or co-founder, I guess. Can't forget Martin Dickey, but that is effective immediately. And I don't know what else there's to say about this because it was likely a long time coming. There's been some controversies at BrewDog. Former employees have said that leadership from Watt had created a toxic environment.

[00:05:28] Zoe Licata: Yeah, it was a culture of fear, I think is how they characterized it, that you created. that was from some reports that happened in 2021, but they're specifically quote, inappropriate behavior that was coming from James himself. So he had denied all of it and he even pursued some legal action because of it, but it seems like he has finally decided to step away and filling in for him will be their chief operating officer, James Arrow.

[00:06:00] Justin Kendall: And the BBC reported that BrewDog is working to return to profitability after three years of significant losses driven by higher energy costs, supply chain disruption, and rapid expansion of its on trade. And there's an SEC filing out there where you can really dive into the numbers. We have them all over at Brewbound.com. If you're an insider, you can get deeper into this story and what's going on over there. Zoe, we got to visit BrewDog while we were in Las Vegas.

[00:06:37] Zoe Licata: We did. The BrewDog slash Olive Garden.

[00:06:43] Justin Kendall: It's the wave of the future, right? You know, it's like the old like. What was it like Kentucky fried chicken, pizza hut, Taco Bell combo, but this time it's Olive Garden and BrewDog. So you can get your Elvis juice with unlimited breadsticks.

[00:07:02] Zoe Licata: I'm sure there's some consumer for that. Yes, I will say the rooftop section of that location is very cool.

[00:07:10] Justin Kendall: Yeah, they have a giant roof deck and it just constant blowing of cool air, a slight mist.

[00:07:19] Zoe Licata: Yeah, very misty, a cooling mist for the hot, dry desert of Vegas.

[00:07:26] Justin Kendall: Yeah. All right. Let's get to our final move and that's at Great Lakes Brewing Company. Mark King resigned. He stepped down as CEO at the end of April and they have co-CEOs or interim co-CEOs.

[00:07:41] Zoe Licata: Interim co-CEOs for now, yes. So, Mark King, who has been in the industry for a while, has been at Great Lakes for three years now, and he has stepped down. So, the Chief Commercial Officer, Chris Brown, and the Chief Operations Officer, Stephen Powells, they have taken over as interim co-CEOs, effective immediately. which Patrick Conway, who's one of the founders of Great Lakes, he founded it with his brother, noted in the press release announcement about that, that, hey, this is perfect. We were founded by two folks, we liked the idea of being led by another two people, this might work for us. We mentioned it's an interim tag, so they're still going to figure out what works best. Their communications person, chatted with me for a little bit just via email and noted that they'll probably readdress it in about a year and see where they're at and if they want to make it a more permanent tag or not. But for now, yeah, those two guys are going to lead the way.

[00:08:45] Justin Kendall: And I'm personally very familiar with Steven Powell's work. I lived in Kansas City for 11 years, and he is largely, greatly responsible for the Boulevard Brewing portfolio of brands. So he is quite the innovation brewer.

[00:09:04] Zoe Licata: Yeah, and they said that he's also been pretty instrumental in doing a lot of the quality improvements at Great Lakes since he joined, he joined there in April 2022. And a lot of their innovation there as well. So it will be interesting to see if they come out with some new fun stuff now what that like their new innovation plans are going to be like. We know that Great Lakes kind of had a big overhaul of all of its brands a few years ago when Marking took over because it you know, this is an older brand. So they were trying to figure out How do we communicate with the next generation of consumers? And for Weisberg, it seems that that was a success in the company's view, and they were able to reverse some trends there. But now it's a, okay, where do we go from here?

[00:09:48] Justin Kendall: Another story up at Brewbound.com is that Wisconsin Brewing has launched a Harley-Davidson branded non-alcoholic beer. It's called Road King, named after the motorcycle of the same name. I did not realize that Harley-Davidson was a Wisconsin company. So this is two Wisconsin companies coming together. And I spoke with Paul Verdue, the president of Wisconsin Brewing about this. And he said, you know, We're not going to be the biggest NA beer brand. We know that, but we think that we can attract a niche part of this market and carve that out for ourselves while everyone else is chasing other sort of like I don't know. I mean, you see some of these brands that are basically, you know, very similar to athletic brewing. And this is very much not that and they're going to target biker bars, biker events, you know, the Sturgis Rally, Daytona Bike Week, they launched there. And I've had it. It's a pilsner. It was really good. So props to them.

[00:10:53] Zoe Licata: lot of appeals there. It makes a lot of sense. We know that it's different than athletic, but I think there's some similarity in that. Athletic was started because it was like athletes that wanted to have the refreshment and the taste of beer, but not necessarily the alcohol after they've just run a 5k or something. This is directly being marketed towards bike riders. These are guys that are probably going out for a ride for a couple hours and then want to meet up at the local bar and you can't have too many beers because you got to drive home afterwards. So it makes a lot of sense to me.

[00:11:31] Justin Kendall: And another place that they're going to be selling the beer network of Harley Davidson stores, which I guess are a hub for Harley riders. And so you can pick up a can or a four pack at these stores. And I think there are about 18 or 20 in the state of Wisconsin, but. Nationwide, there are like 600 of these stores. So there is this path to being national without, you know, going through like the normal channels. And they're also going to do e-commerce. Cool. Yeah. And then Paul bought himself a Harley.

[00:12:09] Zoe Licata: As you kind of have to.

[00:12:10] Justin Kendall: He told me the story that the person he's working with at Harley told him, like, you're the only person I know that launched a beer brand so you could buy a motorcycle. You can read all about that if you're a Brewbound Insider. There's all the exclusive stories that we do on the website, in the newsletter, a little bit of both. You can check out the latest edition of A Round With. Our Q&A with Urban South's Jacob Landry is up. He talks about getting into the THC seltzer space, how they've carved out their own niche within the hard tea space with rapper Juvenile. So lots of different perspectives in there, and we've got more of those that we'll be rolling out and all kinds of other stories that you can check out, data stories, whatever, at Brewbound.com, so become an insider today. Well, let's get to our featured interview with the folks at Three Tier Beverages and Kelly McKnight from New Belgium Brewing Company.

[00:13:12] Tier Beverages: Well, I am super psyched to be joined by our dear friends here from Three Tier Beverages. We have Three Tier founder, Don Bixel. How you doing, bud?

[00:13:21] Donn Bichsel: Doing very good, my friend.

[00:13:22] Tier Beverages: Oh, that's great. You are fresh here from Europe on a whirlwind trip.

[00:13:27] Donn Bichsel: London via Chicago to Las Vegas.

[00:13:31] Tier Beverages: Wild. I don't know how you're on three hours of sleep. Oh, my God.

[00:13:35] Donn Bichsel: It was good. It was a good three hours.

[00:13:36] Tier Beverages: Nice. Well, you know, quality over quantity. And joining us, the whole brains behind this operation and what's going to happen in this conversation is Mary Mills, Three Tier Beverages Consultant. What's going on, Mary? Hi, Jess. So good to see you. So good to see you. It's so nice to all be together. It is. So Three Tier is the one of the premier data providers to craft beverage producers. And you guys have worked out a really cool relationship with Brewers Association members. So what can you tell our listeners about the three tier dashboard that the BA provides?

[00:14:14] Mary Mills: Yeah, we're super excited about our relationship with the Brewers Association as well. So for about a year now, we've been providing dashboards that is free for all BA members. It's updated on a quarterly basis and it provides high-level trends of what's going on in craft. We break out the what we call regional views. So we strip out the top 15 brands so folks can get kind of that understanding of, you know, differences that we're seeing with small to midsize brewers versus the big national ones that might be driving some of the trends. And then we look at different styles and pack sizes, different geographies. So it's a great way for members to kind of dip their toe into the ScanData world. That's awesome. Now, why is it important to pull out the top 15? I think, you know, when you see what's going on with brands like Zudu Ranger and, you know, other big national brands, they're often going to show those trends of, you know, double IPAs are growing, or, you know, we see Kona Big Wave driving the Golden Ale trend. So when you take that out, sometimes it's a different story. So I think that's important for the mid to small size brewers to be able to see what might be a feel a little bit more specific to them.

[00:15:20] Tier Beverages: That's awesome. That's so, so important. Yeah. And I know, you know, we get our own three tier dashboard that we cherish and use all the time. Yes. So it's really helpful data. And I know that data can be expensive for craft producers, but it is really necessary in crafting a selling story.

[00:15:38] Mary Mills: Yeah, it absolutely is. And we talked about that. We did a sponsored session yesterday here and talked a lot about the importance of data. And certainly, depletion data is important, shipment data, your own internal metrics are really important. But to get the full picture of what's going on in the category, you need to be able to see that competitive data and how you stack up against others. So we think it's important. And to your point, I know people think it is somewhat prohibitive, but we have been able to work with suppliers of all sizes. Just a quick plug for us there. Yeah. Don, how many clients are you at now?

[00:16:10] Donn Bichsel: The real number or the Don number?

[00:16:12] Tier Beverages: Jesus Christ. We need both. Something in between.

[00:16:15] Donn Bichsel: No, I think as of last count, we've touched 271 different supplier partners. And full-time, I think that we're working with about 180 currently. So anything across both beer, wine, spirits, non-alcohol, and a lot of the emerging categories right now. So we've been able to make data approachable. And to kind of follow up a little bit with what Mary said, I think that there's this belief that data isn't affordable at all. And I think with the unique relationships that we've got with our providers with both Nielsen IQ and then working with Vermont Information Processing, I think we've been able to provide solutions that are affordable for suppliers and distributors and retailers of all sizes.

[00:16:56] Tier Beverages: So you get the high level, like cross-category Bev-Alc view. What are some things that are playing out, say for spirits, that could be, you know, helpful or insightful for craft brewers?

[00:17:07] Mary Mills: Yeah, I think it is important to see that. And we've talked to Bart about that as well as, you know, how can we incorporate some of that wine and spirits data for members to see too, because, you know, understanding the bigger picture of what's going on, not even just in Bev-Alk, but Total Beverage too. So we do try to get a sense of what those trends are. Obviously for spirits, the big thing in recent years has been the RTD And we haven't really seen that start to slow down yet. I think from a brand standpoint, there's some saturation, but certainly I think flavor is kind of the big thing. So we've certainly seen that in F&Bs and other things within the malt space. But yeah, there's certainly things to understand and take away from adjacent categories. That's great.

[00:17:52] Donn Bichsel: Yeah, I think the unique thing, I mean, flavor and definitely pack size as well. I mean, I think that we're seeing some very unique pack sizes out there in the industry right now. I think that retailers are more willing to take a chance on something that is beyond the norm, not necessarily an innovation as far as flavor or style, but innovation in pack size, making sure that that shelf position that they're holding is very profitable for them so that whatever they put in that space in both turns and in overall dollars generated, is working for them at the retail level as well.

[00:18:22] Tier Beverages: What's up in pack sizes lately? I've gotten a few press releases for 15 packs and it's a little bit like, wait, am I in a time machine?

[00:18:29] Mary Mills: What has happened? It feels like everything comes full circle in this business, doesn't it? But yeah, 15s are having a moment. Certainly singles, right? I mean, the 19.2 trend and convenience. But again, a lot of that's driven by Voodoo Ranger other big brands. So when we strip that out, it is a little bit different. And I think one point we made yesterday in our talk is, Obviously data is important. We think data is important, but it is an art and a science. And you as a brewer know your business better than anybody else. And so you have to consider that too. So just because 19.2s are having a moment or 15 packs are having a moment, that doesn't mean you need to jump into it. There's a lot of other things to consider, of course.

[00:19:05] Tier Beverages: What's up with the 16 ounce four packs?

[00:19:08] Donn Bichsel: Overall, as far as new innovation packages or just as far as new distribution out into the marketplace?

[00:19:13] Tier Beverages: both.

[00:19:14] Donn Bichsel: You know it's it's kind of interesting because the fact that I think that there's a lot of people that have kind of shied away from it but what I've really found is that a lot of the kind of middle tier brands are actually using 16 ounce cans whether or not they're in a four pack or not as they're offering in the on-premise. I think that that has been a big change seeing brands that are having their mainstay instead of it being available in 12 ounce. and in 19-2, we're seeing a lot of 16 ounces gravitate to the on-premise. I think that we saw brands such as Bells, especially with Two Hearted, out of the Chicago market through the Midwest, do such a great job as everybody kind of gravitated to cans and grab and go during the pandemic. I think consumers are looking for those larger pack sizes, especially in on-premise experiences.

[00:19:58] Mary Mills: Yeah, it's funny too. We were talking about on-premise yesterday and a stat that CGA, who's Nielsen's on-premise partner, has from some survey work they did is that they're actually seeing younger consumers are gravitating towards those canned packages as opposed to draft. And so I think at first people hear that and it's like some concern because draft is so key to the on premise. But when you think about it from a brand, that's free branding, you know, a young consumer walking around with your can. That's a good thing. So it's interesting.

[00:20:29] Tier Beverages: That's so interesting. I mean. God, so much to unpack there that I don't think we really have the time. But you know, Bart has been talking a lot about how the decline of draft beer should be extremely concerning to craft brewers. And it absolutely should be. But what I'm hearing from you guys is that there is still, there's a crack in the door in the on-premise to get in there through 16 ounce cans. And that's really interesting. Because draft systems are a lot.

[00:20:58] Mary Mills: They're a lot to maintain.

[00:21:00] Tier Beverages: And you have to.

[00:21:01] Mary Mills: Yeah. And if the younger consumers are gravitating towards those cans, maybe that's a good place to pivot.

[00:21:07] Donn Bichsel: Yeah. Mary, you bring up such a great point when it comes to branding. I know that that's the biggest struggle you've got. You've got that one opportunity, obviously, with the tap handles, with a lot of bars and restaurants pre-pandemic were moving away from. They were going for a cleaner look. So if you don't have that opportunity for branding, you're trying to push it into a glass. Once again, a lot of retailers were pushing against that. But when you are talking about branding, there is nothing more impactful. than seeing that can or bottle in somebody's hands in the on-premise. And then, you know, to think about what's happening with draft, there's a lot of factors at play. Draft pricing continued to rise and the retailers had to push that pricing to the consumer at the on-premise. And back to what happened during the pandemic, a lot of consumers were grabbing that one or two in a 19.2 ounce at a much more cost preferable rate from an off-premise location, they got used to being able to have that kind of feel and that opportunity when they drank a craft beer, that look and feel and that experiential was all drinking out of a can. So I think a lot of that is a carryover, and then there's some price factors involved as well.

[00:22:15] Tier Beverages: It's really interesting. What is one takeaway that if you could give to every craft brewer who has trekked out here to Las Vegas that will help them in their business this year, what would you tell them?

[00:22:24] Mary Mills: I think what we talked about yesterday is, and I'm probably stealing this from Don, he'll be mad because this is probably the point he wanted to make, but we talk a lot about, and Nielsen talks a lot, NIQ talks a lot about the full view, and so making sure that when you are utilizing data, you're looking at the full picture, and so that's what we focused on a lot yesterday was the consumer side of the data. So you've got three tiers of beverages, you've got three tiers of data, and, you know, not forgetting sort of that last piece of it and really trying to understand who your consumer is. And we can help you do that.

[00:23:00] Tier Beverages: The Tier Beverages branding you just snuck in here. Yes. Pro move. That's right. Thank you.

[00:23:07] Mary Mills: You're welcome, Don.

[00:23:08] Donn Bichsel: That was well done. I wasn't going to go with the fuller view with the utilization of VIP, but I'll sneak that one in as well. But I think the biggest takeaway is to remember this, is it's time to slow everything back down. I think that beer is going to do what beer does. I think that Lester does a great job of making sure that when he talks about the fact that beer keeps the lights on for all the distributors, for the retailers. But I would go back to slowing down and focus on your mainstays. I think that there's always a place in your tap rooms for innovation. I don't think that all that innovation needs to be pushed out into the marketplace. I think to concentrate on your branding, and push all in with your mainstays, your flagship brands. And flagship isn't necessarily a word that I necessarily have always embraced, but if there ever was time for you to really concentrate on that one brand, that one brand in your portfolio that you're going to push out there, this is the time to do it.

[00:24:09] Tier Beverages: Amazing. Flagship, perhaps the second best F word there is. Well, thank you both. This was delightful and always good to catch up with you. And I am so excited to hang out with you in Vegas. Absolutely.

[00:24:21] Donn Bichsel: Can't wait to see you tonight. A lot of great events happening on. Great seeing you, Jess.

[00:24:24] Tier Beverages: Thanks, guys. Bye. Welcome back to the Brewbound podcast, where we are recording live in the Brewbound podcast on location studio here at the trade show at the Craft Brewers Conference in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. I am psyched for this guest, Kelly McKnight, lead R&D brewer from a brewery you may or may not have heard of, New Belgium Brewing. But Kelly and I have a mutual bestie, and I feel like we've both known each other, of each other, for so long that I am thrilled that we're actually meeting in person for the first time. So Kelly, how you doing? I'm great. The conference has been awesome so far. Yeah, I mean, I had my doubts about what CBC in Vegas would be like. I feel like people have been pleasantly surprised. Yeah, it's less terrifying than I thought it would be. Right? I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm excited to go home. But it's been nice. People are psyched. People are enjoying the vibes. So let's just get into it. You lead R&D for New Belgium and you guys have had some absolute bangers and innovation in the last few years, which I feel like I'm way too old to be saying things like that, but it's too late to stop the tape and fix it. So we're just going to roll with it and accept it. But New Belgium is really like kind of leaning into being a little bit of a house of brands. You know, you've got Voodoo, which has its own identity. Then Voodoo Ranger out into hard tea. There have been hard seltzers. Like when you're innovating, in general, like do you do it with a brand family in mind or do you just kind of say, hey, let's get this going and see where the wind takes us?

[00:25:58] New Belgium: It's a little bit of both. So obviously Voodoo has really turned into our number one. Fat Tire was it for a while, and then we evolved. And when Voodoo started coming out and just going insane with sales numbers, we were rolling with it. We're still rolling with it. And that's really cool in the R&D process because You know, I know some things can be confusing because it's like voodoo, hard charge T, you know, it extends. But pre moving into beyond IPA stuff, you know, we really were like, this is it. This is doing well. And we need adaptability and we need to survive. So we're going to invest a lot. And it is actually its own brand, like you're talking about. I mean, under New Belgium. So yeah, with R&D like that, either we have marketing come to us and say, this is what we want you to make because we think this is cool. And I actually gave a talk yesterday with a panel of amazing people. Natalie Baldwin from Wayfinder, Megan Parisi from Sam Adams, and Tanya Cornett, who just won the Russell Shearer Award for Innovator of the Year from 10 Barrel. And yeah, so when we were talking yesterday in the innovation panel, I kind of explained how our team is kind of symbiotic with marketing. So we constantly are working on new beers with new raw materials and ideas. And part of my job in particular, you know, is being like kind of the GM manager of the pilot brewery where everything at New Belgium is made, whether it's via brewing or bench topping with natural flavor or other raw materials that could turn into hard charged tea or whatnot. But yeah, we are always cooking up stuff for marketing and marketing is always cooking up stuff for us. And I think kind of something that differentiates us between some other breweries is that we have a high trust relationship. So it's like a two sided arrow. We bring them stuff, they bring us stuff.

[00:28:04] Tier Beverages: That sounds like a great way to do it, because I, having been in marketing at various places, sometimes there is a little friction. So when that's not there, Really great things can happen as, you know, your portfolio clearly attests to. So I do have a really specific but maybe a silly question. When you're doing new IPAs, is it just a given that those are going to go up under VUDU or could some of them go under the broader New Belgium flag?

[00:28:29] New Belgium: No, I think at this point in time, because Voodoo has such a large footprint in the marketplace, every IPA is just going to be made for Voodoo. And we have a specific marketing team just for Voodoo. And then we have a specific marketing team for everything else. Cool. And then small brand too. But yeah, new IPAs, we're just constantly, it's Voodoo. Awesome. How much interaction do you have with the Bells crew? A lot. So they have their own R&D team and we have ours, but we have been brewing stuff there. They've been brewing stuff at New Belgium. And so we have to talk all the time. And as part of the larger production process, we have to stay in touch with all kinds of raw materials, safety things. And so anytime we're coming up with brands in our pilot that could go to production and maybe hit their system, we have to talk about it. So we are actually working together all the time. And that's not to say that Bell's isn't doing their entire own thing either, but we're doing ours, they're doing theirs. But now as we build brands and we build recipes, we have to make sure that, oh, okay, like for some reason, there's a little extra capacity at New Belgium. Can we brew it here or can we brew it in Nashville or Daleville? And so we have to make sure that things site-wide could be processed and produced at each location.

[00:29:57] Tier Beverages: Awesome. I mean, there's so much that I'm sure you can all learn from each other. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, just more people on the team, the better, which is great. So how do you balance where the trend lines currently are in craft versus where you think they're heading when you're working on innovation products?

[00:30:13] New Belgium: Our team is a very small team. So now I'm just talking about New Belgium. Yep. How do we balance that out? We do and we don't. I mean, we hear numbers, we see numbers and what's trending in the market from Nielsen and this, that and the other. But at the same time, we have a ton of freedom to do whatever we want. And that's really cool because let's say like, OK, there's this big old push for a certain type of beverage, but In the end, it didn't do very well with sensory or with test market stuff. And then we can, bam, pull out of the pocket, like something that we've been working on independently in the pilot. So I don't really know if I answered your question. I mean, I don't know that there is an answer to that. We want to be relevant. So we're working with trends, but at the same time, we're trying to get abreast of that. And so we kind of look at everything all out there and make prototypes of stuff that is wild. And kind of what I talked about at the talk at CBC yesterday about innovation was we nearly view now beer as a raw material in itself. And so you overlay like with Juice Forest, for instance, that was at the time hazy were popular, imperialization was popular. Fruits and fruit natural flavors were popular. And so were seltzers. And so how we actually made up Juice Force, we just worked with all that and tried to put it in one bottle. So we keep all that stuff together. And then we're like, maybe we can launch this and it'll be really cool. Or, okay, there's a need for whatever style of beer. Let's go after that. So we, I guess we do both.

[00:31:56] Tier Beverages: Yeah. I mean, how important are taproom sales in your process?

[00:32:00] New Belgium: They're important. We track them. So we have tap rooms in Fort Collins and Asheville right now. And then with Magnolia, we still have Magnolia. And we look at that. And then part of my job being the main pilot brewer is brewing things and putting it on tap and all that and seeing what people think. But if you look at our footprint in the beer world, our tap rooms are very small. It's like a very small amount of consumers compared to where we are right now. So we have to kind of look more at marketing and R&D. We have to look more at consumer trends and then beyond that, which is like total beverage trends.

[00:32:44] Tier Beverages: That's really helpful because at the size of New Belgium, like, yeah, taproom sales are important for for all brewers. But you're right. It's such a small piece of the pie when you are sold in, you know, all 50 states in almost every class of trade. But it is important. But the other thing is you got to think about the people that come in your taproom are self-selecting.

[00:33:02] New Belgium: Right. And I would say, you know, obviously taproom sales are important and huge shout out to our taprooms and what they tell us and what they discover. But in addition to that, the volume of sales isn't mainly coming from taprooms, it's coming from everywhere else.

[00:33:18] Tier Beverages: Right. One thing I think, and you touched on this a little bit talking about the development of Fruit Force, is it is important to look outside craft beer. And I think some people maybe might scoff at that idea, depending on where you are in your journey in the craft world, might think like, what do I have to learn from hard seltzers? But here's the thing, like I think looking across broader, all beverages, not just beer and not just beverage alcohol, like looking at everything really helps tell you what consumers are into.

[00:33:47] New Belgium: Yeah, and that's the thing is like, you know, there's a whole new generation of drinkers and you are starting to hear it. You heard it in Bart's talk, but palates are changing. People are drinking, grew up drinking different things. And so I think something we're focused on is how do we capture new consumers, right? And that as a larger brewery, you're into that. And what I was asked in that talk I did, so I'm just repeating some stuff that maybe some people didn't hear is, you know, innovation for us means breaking your brain, thinking outside the box, And in the beginning, I was a traditionalist to style, but now, and I love traditional styles, don't get me wrong, but to survive in the world right now of beer and craft, you have to think differently and be okay with breaking all the boundaries. So I think that's what we're doing well right now. and we'll see what happens.

[00:34:42] Tier Beverages: I can't think of anybody doing that better than you guys right now. Thanks. You're welcome. Well, let's talk about your talk yesterday because I meant to get there and I'm so sorry, but we just, you know, we were here recording and it just kept going and going and going and it was delightful, but great. I can't be in many places at once. So give us some highlights from that talk.

[00:34:59] New Belgium: It was really cool. Like I said, I already mentioned that there was Tonya, Natalie, Megan in it. And one thing that I thought that was really, that we brought to the table for the BA and especially the entire craft brew conference was there were brewers from all different size breweries. So Natalie at Wayfinder, you know, was speaking from a perspective that was a few thousand barrels a year, all the way up to Sam Adams, right? They have a whole different R&D approach that even we do, which we're, I don't know how Mary Mills of barrels Sam does with all their products. We all know it's pretty high. We're about 1.8 million. And then Tanya at 10 Barrel is similar, but she's owned by Tilray, which is a huge parent company. So anyway, I think we brought perspectives from all different sizes and it was really cool. It was really nice. The audience had great questions. We kind of got cut off because I think we went, we didn't go horribly long, but yeah, if you have a chance to watch it, check it out. But there's just, like I said, perspectives from all over the place.

[00:36:04] Tier Beverages: Awesome. And I think I've heard that everything will be recorded. Everything that's been recorded is going to go up within a month for BA members. So I can't wait to check that out. One thing, and I've talked to Megan about this, but I think what I loved about what you did, and I know the point is to act like it's normal and not call it out, but I'm going to call it out because until it becomes normal, there's something that all four of you have in common.

[00:36:27] New Belgium: Are you going to say it?

[00:36:29] Tier Beverages: I'll say it. You were all women having a conversation that clearly was super in demand and listened to and well attended and really well engaged with. And until, like, there comes a day when that's normal, like, I think it's worth shouting out. Hey.

[00:36:47] New Belgium: Yeah. I mean, it was kind of the unspoken. Yeah. I mean, we had it as speakers in the background line and we knew other people did, but we actually didn't want that to be called out at all.

[00:36:57] Tier Beverages: I know. And I think that's the way to do it.

[00:37:00] New Belgium: Yeah. And it was cool because it's like, OK, this is the featured talk. Yes, it happens to be all women. And again, it could have been even more diverse. I'm not going to lie about that. But it's a step. It's a step in our brewing industry. And I think the fact that it wasn't focused on our genders or our queerness or anything like that was some sort of progress.

[00:37:24] Tier Beverages: Totally. And one thing that Tanya mentioned in her award acceptance speech was how, you know, she was really jazzed for her beer to win awards and medals, even though, like, I feel like the conventional wisdom is nobody cares about that. But like, yeah, it matters.

[00:37:39] New Belgium: It matters.

[00:37:40] Tier Beverages: She said that the judges don't know when the beer is brewed by a woman.

[00:37:43] New Belgium: Yeah, I love that quote. That was a laser. Good job, Tonya.

[00:37:47] Tier Beverages: Great job, Tonya. I saw her at Starbucks, but I was a little too fangirled out to say anything because we don't actually know each other.

[00:37:52] New Belgium: She's very nice.

[00:37:53] Tier Beverages: I'm sure. I did a panel at Brute Bound Live a couple of years ago on middle tier distribution stuff, and it was me and all women. And I felt about it the exact same way that you do. I was like, let's not even call it out, call attention to it. We'll act like this is normal. But I'm also glad that you called it out on here. Right? That's the thing. This is like a weird, like... Can't totally ignore it. You can't totally ignore it. Well, Kelly, this has been so good. What has been your favorite thing about CBC in Vegas this week?

[00:38:22] New Belgium: Well, I mean, Vegas has been like you kind of asked in the beginning. It's a lot. Being in Vegas has been a lot more chill than I expected. Yeah. You know, we always have wonderful speakers. I would say, you know, there was like the whole Thrive sessions and things like that. But I feel like There's just been a lot of progress. And look, there's a lot more to go. But I feel like overall, the situation here feels safe. It's nice. And it's just been wonderful meeting tons of new brewers, especially from all over the country that have had the chance to be elevated to higher platforms. So it's been really good talking with leaders in more diverse groups. But also, you know, Vegas is just a good host city.

[00:39:08] Tier Beverages: For sure. Perfect place to leave it. I know you're so busy, so I'm so glad you took the time to chat with us today. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:39:15] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Zoe for doing all she does. Thanks to our audio team, including Wizard Joe. And thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.