Brewbound Podcast: Craft Beer Production Data Christmas Arrives

[00:00:00] Justin Kendall: Heading to CBC? Kick things off the day before at Brewbound's meetup at Love City Brewing in Philly, Sunday, April 19th from 5 to 7 p.m. Connect with beer industry leaders, grab a drink, and catch up with the Brewbound team. It's free to attend and walking distance from the convention center. Head to Brewbound.com slash lovecity.rsvp. And don't forget to catch the Brewbound team at booth 956 during CBC. Craft Brewer Production Day to Christmas is finally here, next on the Brewbound Podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Brewbound Podcast. I'm Justin Kendall.

[00:00:48] Zoe Licata: I'm Zoe Licata.

[00:00:50] Justin Kendall: And I'm Sean McNulty. I get to do it myself. Awesome. Welcome Sean McNulty, BrewBounds Weekend Insider Newsletter writer. Where you been?

[00:01:00] Sean McNulty: I'm holding it down in New Jersey, because Jess, you know, is taking a break. So I'm here to finally represent New Jersey in the conversation again. I know it's been lacking the past few weeks. We've gotten some, I'm sure we've gotten a lot of viewer mail about this. So I'm happily filling that slot for you guys. It's much needed after Memorial Day. I would say so. But you know, my personal opinion, it's summertime, beach season in the Jersey Shore. So a lot of beer to drink. So that's for sure.

[00:01:23] Justin Kendall: Yeah, well, this week's episode features an interview with Breweria co-founder Agustin Ruelas and Norwalk Brew founder Ray Ricky Rivera. They'll be discussing Los Farmworkers, a collaboration series that benefits nonprofits supporting migrant workers. But before we get to that interview, I am woefully out of the loop. I've been in Maryland and then back home here in Iowa. And Zoe, you were doing a great job of holding things down, but how are you doing?

[00:01:59] Zoe Licata: I'm alive. I made it. I survived. That's where I'm at. Not too much else to add there. I was very happy for the three day weekend. I will say that I needed some recovery. Last week was a very long week.

[00:02:14] Justin Kendall: You did a great job of steering the ship, even with an iceberg of news coming at you. From the looks of it, I tried to stay out of the loop as much as I could. Well done. Other than doing a little bit of facilitating behind the scenes when some emails were bouncing back. But I don't know. Where do you want to start?

[00:02:33] Zoe Licata: That's a great question. I'm curious, Sean, what you thought the most exciting news from last week was.

[00:02:38] Sean McNulty: Most exciting news last week. Oh boy. I mean, the, you know, the past innovations were all, I love innovations. You know, I'm a sucker for any end of day. We have spike that beat us, which is tequila inspired. That was a new term terminology in my handbook here. Yeah, but obviously the BA numbers, as someone who's done a data dive himself, I know what your brain's like after doing that process. So you seem to have your sanity and your ability to communicate has returned, which is nice. So that's probably where we should start, I guess. I mean, anything that really was like, wow, I didn't know that or that was unexpected, I guess, since you're the expert in this area.

[00:03:14] Zoe Licata: Yeah, so for people who may not have seen yet the BA released the 2023 production numbers, which is what we like to refer to as our Christmas normally, which I feel like is typically a very happy occasion. But when I was by myself on a Friday, it was a little a little crazy. And so we're going to have data coming out from that throughout the whole week. But last week, I was able to go through just the top 50 craft numbers. And it was quite a mixed bag of results in that just over half of those breweries recorded declines, but the ones that really gained production or increased production were doing it by quite a significant percentage. The total pie for the top 50 volume was up 3% year over year, and their share of total craft volume went back over 50%. It's now at 51.5%. Last year, we know that they went below 50%. It was the first time it had happened since 2018. It feels like it was a little more depressing last year, and this year showed some improvement for folks. So yeah, I'm trying to remember what even happened on Friday.

[00:04:24] Sean McNulty: Well, there's some, I'll look at some of these numbers up now. I mean, it's so many, like, I'm going to put asterisks on this list. Like, you know, I can look at the pure percentages, look at the numbers. I mean, on the whole year to year, the BA list just changes because of sales of companies that have to leave it. So therefore, it's not like it's one group they know that has been set. If you compare 2017 numbers to 2024 numbers, it's like, I don't know how many breweries in 2017 are no longer on this list. So there is that variance, which is important to remember here. It is what it is. But even looking at the ones you mentioned, some big gainers here, Yingling, plus 17%, but you know, they have the MC partnership. It's like, is that organic growth? Or is that distro growth? It's probably distro growth. And then you look at the second big, or number six, Tilray. Well, plus 29%. Well, they added a bunch of brands. So like, that's not organic growth. And then, you know, then I guess Brooklyn was plus 20. And Athletic is plus 51%. And those seem to be probably more organic. Brooklyn, is that all u.s. Or is that include international? I guess it's only us, right?

[00:05:22] Zoe Licata: Yeah only us but a lot of that similar to athletic, you know athletics all non-alcohol in has been doing a lot of non-alcohol Good percentage of that is is there non-alcohol stuff? Yeah, one of the the largest gains that stood out to me was from Jack's Abbey and this does not include we know they are in plans to acquire Wormtown but these numbers don't include any of Wormtown's production they increased 30% to 67.5 thousand barrels. So that's a pretty significant increase. And we've asked before, we know they do contract brewing as well, we've asked if they include contract numbers in this production and Bart says he tries to keep those separate. So that is hopefully not including any of their contract stuff for brands like Night Shift, but not 100% certain there.

[00:06:09] Sean McNulty: Yeah, and one other big one, or the biggest one here, Fiddlehead at number 28 was plus 23%. That's the largest other big gainer I can see on here of the gainers last year. And I will say it was that doing my Jersey Whole Foods visit, as I do, and I often text Justin photos and what I find on the shelf. I didn't text you this one, Justin, but I will say pricing-wise, Fiddlehead, they're in 12 packs now on Fiddlehead IPA and Second Fiddle, which is, again, an all-time beer, and they're 20 bucks. for 12 packs. And you look at every other player in the craft space, whether it's industrial arts, which are big, you know, big player in the Northeast to, to bells with two hearted, they're all 22 to $27. Like it's amazing that the price space that that fiddlehead is playing in is really, I mean, seemingly showing in the gains of the volume, but they're playing a different game. Yeah, it feels like and it's seen that on the shelf. So that's interesting to see that manifest in the numbers there. So one curious thing that kind of stuck out to me.

[00:07:05] Zoe Licata: That is interesting. I think they're able to play in that slightly higher price point because they are all about coal distribution too, right? They're like emphasizing how fresh their products are.

[00:07:18] Sean McNulty: Yeah. All right. Well, who, uh, who, who lost over here? Can I be winners in the craft beer business as the new BPI is telling us, which we can talk about as well.

[00:07:27] Zoe Licata: The steepest decline percentage wise was from Minhas, which was down 44%. And so they fell below 100,000 barrels. In 2022, they were at over 162,000 barrels. And 2023, they were at just over 90,000. So that's a pretty steep decline. Yeah. They also fell quite a few spots in the list. They were 15 last year and earned 2022's rankings. And for 2023, they're number 29. So that was a pretty significant loss. I don't have any other context to add to what that decline is from, but something to check in on. And then the next largest one there was Summit, who ranked number 37. They were down 32% to a little over 70,000 barrels. So they fell down 11 places from 2022.

[00:08:17] Sean McNulty: One thing else to note, I mean, Montucky was, there was four breweries that were flat in the top 50, including Montucky, which is, I mean, look, it's a high number there. I think it was 63,000 barrels, but it is interesting that they just sold out their flat ear or sold a stake in it, not a full sale. But you know, usually those brands that sell are still on that skyrocket boom. So that was one thing that. Yeah, just interesting to note, obviously, you guys wrote the week before in the sale, their sales are primarily in three states. So there's a lot more runway there, which is probably what they're banking on. But then, you know, looking at the other ones, Two of the things that stand out here was that, you know, there was a 26 dropped or 20, whatever it was, you know, so a lot of these drops are pretty small. Like these are 1%, 3%, 5%. This is, you know, a lot of these breweries. So that's not a lot of major drops. There's a couple of them you noted here. A brewery is over 10% there, but, you know, so it's, the decline is relative, Zoe. Maybe that would be something to kind of keep in mind here, thinking about this.

[00:09:16] Zoe Licata: Like I said, there, it was such a mixed bag of results that...

[00:09:20] Sean McNulty: They craft beers, Zoe? What are you talking about? I thought we were pretty uniform in the industry here.

[00:09:26] Zoe Licata: So shocking. Yeah. A lot of these were just some single digit declines. Majority of the declines were single digits. And we would expect some of these to be up for 2024. Like you said, Mantucky Gallo mentioned they're planning to expand the reach of that brand significantly. So we should see some increases for their production for the next report. It seems to be almost mellowed a little bit in the general scope of things versus last year. Last year was kind of like some red alerts happening.

[00:09:58] Sean McNulty: Some would say that's bottoming out, Zoe. You know, Melvin is a much better term there. That's good. And maybe has found its equilibrium, perhaps, as a way to put it.

[00:10:07] Zoe Licata: Potentially, at least with the top 50. We'll see what's going on beyond that. We know kind of the the people who have the largest share seem to benefit the most, I think, and then it's the smaller breweries that are really struggling to figure out what their place is.

[00:10:26] Justin Kendall: Yeah. Yeah, and looking at the total volume number, it was down 3% for the top 50, and that top 50 made 11.947 million barrels of the, what, 23.4 million barrels of craft beer. made and produced in 2023. That's just a start of the data.

[00:10:51] Sean McNulty: Yeah, there's more to come here, right guys? Plenty.

[00:10:54] Justin Kendall: We're working on beyond the top 50. We'll have big beer craft. So those owned by larger beer companies. and probably even more than that. But one of the things that jumped out at me from the New Brewer that I just started to read this morning was there was a column about the Great American Beer Festival and changes that are being made there. And I was a little bit surprised because I hadn't seen this anywhere else yet. was that the Brewers Association is doing away with the Saturday night session. It's gone. So the Brewers Association is down to three sessions of the Great American Beer Festival. And we know that tickets didn't sell out for all sessions last year. And, you know, they're saying that they're going to redistribute some of those tickets across the remaining sessions. So they're expecting to hit around 40,000 people at the 2024 festival. But there were a couple of other things that stood out to me that Anne Obenshain announced there, and that's Brewers can pour anything they want and that includes spirits this year. And that really surprised me because that's something that I think that they had been sort of reluctant to do. I don't believe they could do that last year. I think that they could have done like hard seltzer or some other things.

[00:12:18] Zoe Licata: Yeah, they could do seltzers, ciders, kombucha, still like fermented malt beverages last year.

[00:12:25] Justin Kendall: Yep. And this says pour your beers, RTD cocktails, non-alcoholic beverages, craft spirits, and whatever else you're making.

[00:12:35] Sean McNulty: Whatever. Or non-alcoholic beer.

[00:12:37] Justin Kendall: That'd be great too, you know.

[00:12:39] Sean McNulty: Yeah. We're now pouring shots at GAB. I'm not sure it's a great idea. I'm not voting yes. Is there a thumbs up? Thumbs up. Is it tabbing in, tabbing out? I may be tabbing out on spirits pours at GAB. That's a rough day as it is, man. I don't know. The last thing you need to be doing is tasting your botanical gin three or four times in one day.

[00:12:57] Zoe Licata: Yeah, that's a lot of like mixing of different alcohol, too. That could be.

[00:13:03] Justin Kendall: Always ends well. Yeah. Thankfully, the Saturday night session is gone, I guess. I'm not doing Friday night. If you're doing Friday night, you know, you're on your own, Zoe.

[00:13:13] Sean McNulty: That's the Zoe. That's the Zoe. Yeah, the Zoe section. Sorry. Yeah. Zoe, you have to handle the reporting.

[00:13:18] Zoe Licata: I'm bringing a lot of liquid IV.

[00:13:20] Justin Kendall: You're gonna need it. Stop the clock. We have some updated information from the Brewers Association. Although the latest edition of the New Brewer Magazine says craft spirits would be allowed to be poured at this year's Great American Beer Festival. That is not the case. It is just spirits based, ready to drink, canned cocktails. So just wanted to clarify that real quick. Now let's get back to this week's episode. The other change is that they say there's a new layout coming, that there are gonna be themed areas. And I think that's a good idea. Last year they had advertised, what was it, like a brew pub or like, not brew pub, like a taproom experience or whatever. And it really wasn't that. And I think and I hope that they are going full bore on this because I keep going back to years back, they had Buffalo Wild Wings there, and they also had Jameson. So Jameson had a big thing, yeah, yeah. I didn't think Jameson was a great idea, but it was a cool experience.

[00:14:31] Sean McNulty: They spent a lot of money to make it a cool experience. Yeah, that was a well-invested experiment, I guess, yeah.

[00:14:38] Justin Kendall: Exactly. And the Buffalo Wild Wings area, you could get free wings, and it was an experience. And I remember they used to have mountains of cheese there, too. The point is, we've heard Bart Watson talk about how experiences at breweries are so important. And I don't know what year of GABF we're in at this point. It's been a long time. And Ann is saying this is a reimagined GABF. And I think it needs it. If you see the ticket sales declining, if you see that sort of waning, if you're down to three sessions, You know, we've gone, I've been going since, what, 2016, something like that. It's essentially the same experience each time, you know. Some of the breweries may change, you know. Some of the special experiences, like Jameson isn't there, or, you know, Buffalo Wild Wings wasn't there, or Red Robin, whatever it was, you know, like, those come and go. But those are the things that stick out, and, you know, I remember those years more than I remember even the most recent years, because, To me, the experience is largely the same. And I think that if they really are re-imagining this, then it could be something worth going to again. You know, if you've gone and you felt like you've done this before, like maybe they are finally giving us a reason to come back.

[00:16:06] Sean McNulty: I hope so. I mean, I remember the photos you guys posted last year. And it wasn't that that Southwest experience that was like a couch or something. And you mentioned that taproom thing, which, again, the description, you guys read the description of the podcast before going. And then you know, we post the photos in the in the newsletter. And it was just it was it was, you know, these two things are not what was in my head for sure. So yeah, And to your point, this isn't CBC. This is GABF. This is the Consumer Focused Festival. This is not about the brewers coming together to hang out and share ideas. I mean, that happens, certainly, but you need to be focused on drawing in people flying in from various parts of the country to come do this, or the world for that matter. I know COVID was tough. It's changed a lot of things, but this festival has not rebound from those pre-COVID years, Justin, where I went to that Jameson year. It was, I mean, I'll say what you will about the combination, but it was, it looked great. The B-dubs thing, I think they had sports on there. The football games were on. They had, you know, great food and a great setup and investment. And the past year, the investment was like, this looks like a cardboard table and a punch out of a, you know, of a sign somewhere. And, you know, so this has to be a reason to come to draw people in the door. I mean, Zoe, you've kind of bridged this. What was your first GABF? Now that I'm trying to think about, you may have entered the pantheon here.

[00:17:23] Zoe Licata: Yeah, the first one would have been 2021, I think, because they had post COVID.

[00:17:29] Sean McNulty: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Zoe Licata: Yeah, I've only been post COVID. And it's been a slightly underwhelming every I mean, you're just you're very aware that you're in a giant, like cement floors, warehouse area, basically. And it's a bunch of folding tables. Sure. It felt like they were trying to do stuff different a little bit last year when they had like the non elk section and they had like this cider sections. It almost felt like a half thought. Nona was all the way in this corner and there wasn't any other displays going on there. So you, if you didn't really know what it was, you'd have no idea what, or be intrigued to go over there at all.

[00:18:06] Sean McNulty: Yeah, which a thing like that should probably be mixed in among the other offerings so you can balance your day like this isn't thought out with the user in mind. And that's something that needs to take, and Justin, your point, take a step up here. This is going to find its future to be, you know, what's this in 2028, you know, whatever it might be. So that's a good, that's a heartening announcement for you to hear that, you know, they realize that they need to make some changes, Justin, and, you know, maybe they don't need all those sessions and certainly Costs and things like that that go into this every you know, the more time you have in there I'm sure the more expensive it is for the BA. So it's a Point of reckoning.

[00:18:41] Zoe Licata: Yeah, I'm curious what the general reaction of brewers is gonna be to it This year, it also has their homebrew con integrated into everything. So what that's going to look like with these additional things, I guess it makes sense now more why they said this is kind of like your safe space because there's going to be a lot more going on than the other places. So this is kind of like the homebrewers spot to actually talk industry. So yeah, we don't know what exactly that's going to look like yet either. They just say there's going to be a designated spot that only people who are part of that Homebrewers Association, they can go into that spot. So TBD.

[00:19:19] Justin Kendall: It's going to be all about the execution. And that's what it could have been last year. And I just didn't think that it reached the level that I was like, you know, what it was going to be in my head. Let's move on to another story. And it was a big one. And that's Logonitis is shuttering its Chicago production facility. And it had only been reopened about a year, right? Since the pandemic, there was talk, you know, we kept hearing, oh, well, taproom is going to come back. It's going to come back. And I guess in a way, you know, it's surprising that they even brought it back if this was going to be the end result.

[00:20:00] Zoe Licata: Yeah, they were trying to be optimistic about it. And I think a lot of it there was, at least on social media and everything, it seemed like they were really hammered with calls to open it up again, because it took them a while to do it post pandemic. I mean, it was in, they did it in 2022, which, you know, some folks had already done it by 2021. So Yeah, it's interesting. They said it was a need, I think their words exactly, where they needed to future-proof the organization. This is just, they have to do it to make things make sense. Breweries are cutting costs where they can and something like moving all of your production to one facility is going to have a significant impact on your bottom line in a positive way. It makes sense. I was interested, when I was writing this story, I forgot about the other locations that they had had as well, these other outposts outside of California, just taproom-wise. They had the one in Portland, Oregon that closed in 2019. They had one in Seattle that closed in 2023. This was their last one outside of California, and now they're solely just in that one original location.

[00:21:12] Justin Kendall: And Seattle was a brewery too, right?

[00:21:16] SPEAKER_??: Mhm.

[00:21:16] Justin Kendall: So not entirely surprising that Heineken is cost-cutting. Unfortunately, 86 workers affected there. It sounds like some of them will be retained. Some will work remote, but just a rough situation, obviously, for everyone involved. And then production moves to Petaluma. If I remember right, they were finishing an innovation center there, you know, about a year ago, right?

[00:21:42] Zoe Licata: Yeah, and they said they're going to have an even more focus on innovation now with this production move. So yeah, that's going to start in early August. The taproom is officially closed. It closed the same day that the announcement came out. But production is still going on in Chicago until until the kind of end of the crazy summer season.

[00:22:03] Justin Kendall: And do we know what's going to happen with the facility?

[00:22:07] Zoe Licata: I don't believe we have any knowledge of what's happening there yet.

[00:22:11] Justin Kendall: Anybody want to buy a brewery?

[00:22:14] Sean McNulty: 2024?

[00:22:15] Zoe Licata: You're going to see the auction in the BrewBow newsletter in like three months.

[00:22:20] Sean McNulty: If you want to buy a Chicago area brewery with how many, 30 barrel, 60 barrel fermenters.

[00:22:31] Justin Kendall: We joke about it, but that's... That's what happens. You know, I think we just saw like the Oscar blues one go up not long ago in Austin.

[00:22:40] Zoe Licata: Yeah. The Aeronaut one just went up. That's because they they merged with Dorchester, moved all their production there. So, yeah, we see it like a few months, like three to six months after the news officially comes out. We were reminded by these auction posts.

[00:22:56] Sean McNulty: And how much equipment they actually had in that, that Oscar blues one was just like, I mean, it makes sense when you think about the brewery, but just like, that's a lot of, you know, a lot of gear that's up for sale probably at. you know, a hefty discount. I'll put it that way. Uh, if you're looking to, you know, to brew, but who wants to brew that much? Who's putting that much capacity in, in 2024 is like, you know, even if it's cheap. Yeah, exactly. A few of, yeah, maybe the folks at Yangling or a few of the people we talked about on the list there. Potentially athletic, I guess. Athletic, yeah. If you just paint over the Oscar blues sign with your athletic logo on the, uh, on the fermenter.

[00:23:29] Justin Kendall: Look what happened with the ballast point. I mean, so lots of, uh, rumors swirling there as well. All right, before we get to our featured interview, Sean, do you want to give us a rundown, a beer report from Central Park?

[00:23:45] Sean McNulty: Would I? I mean, come on, why don't I? This is what I do my weekends now. So yes, it is peak summer season here in the East Coast, Zoe. I think you can attest to that. We had a lovely Memorial Day weekend. Surprisingly, usually it's kind of a... kicking the teeth to start the summer, but this time it was a mid 70s, sunny, sunny outside. So yes, I did a stroll through Central Park, Sheep Meadow, which is where all of Zoe lived in New York City, all of her and her friends would be hanging out since the heavy, heavy Gen Z contingent of people. I'll put a photo in the in the weekend newsletter on Saturday, just a lot, you know, a large amount of people living. I'm the you know, 40 something guy walking around trying to look inconspicuous looking at what people are drinking.

[00:24:26] Justin Kendall: I'm not looking at you. I'm looking at your drinks.

[00:24:28] Sean McNulty: Yeah, I'm not staring. I know. I swear I'm just looking at your drinks. Exactly. I didn't I didn't bother to like, say, excuse me, ma'am, do you want to tell me why you purchased this product? But I'll tell you what, we see this, you know, hard seltzer taking the hits that it's taken. But you know, that that's the overall narrative here, right? And surely has been driving a lot of that. But White Claw has been pretty flat. And White Claw was everywhere in Central Park. I will say that was the most popular drink I saw out there. And that just kind of, again, like to that core consumer who I'll put, you know, quote, unquote, grew up with it. They seem to be again, these are generally folks, mid 20s to late 20s, you know, an age, maybe early 30s to a degree of an age group. And they, you know, that was by far the most prevalent was, was White Claw and not and a little bit of Truly, but like it was mostly White Claw. And then hi, your best friend. Hi, noon there, Zoe. You know, it's definitely still going strong. So those are the two highest ones. I saw zero Bud Light. Not a one, or Coors Light, I think, but Miller Lite had a decent, of beer, of big beer, Miller Lite was definitely the winner. Heartened to see that out there, and some good Central Park representation. On the craft front, Sierra Hazy was probably the one that I saw, you know, a handful of times of anybody craft. One guy drinking Allagash White, going strong out there. And Montauk, which is a big brand here in New York, certainly, so that one, among the Gen Z and Millennial set, Montauk is pretty big, so. But yeah, this, you know, the amount of hard seltzer out there, not, you know, high noon for RTD certainly, but, you know, White Claw was going strong among that demo. I was not surprised, but I was, you know, surprised to see, but...

[00:26:03] Zoe Licata: It's a nice reminder, because we're always talking about, like, hard seltzers doing rough, but...

[00:26:08] Sean McNulty: So troubled, nobody wants it, but I'm like...

[00:26:10] Zoe Licata: They're still holding on.

[00:26:12] Sean McNulty: If you're White Claw.

[00:26:13] Zoe Licata: I was shocked to learn a couple of weeks ago that, so Tall Ship is one of the big, like, outdoor spots that's pretty popular over here in East Boston. And high noons are like the drink that almost everyone was getting, because that was basically the only Seltzer-esque thing that they offered there. It has been replaced with White Claw vodka soda. So I don't know what deal that Marc Anthony made to get that going, but that might convert some folks back over to White Claw.

[00:26:43] Sean McNulty: All right. White Claw could be resurging this year. Who knows? We'll keep an eye on the numbers, but something to check out for sure. What about imports, Sean? No, I'm still light. Sorry, Justin. That was not a I Was concerned there was a smattering of Modelo I will say I think Sierra probably was the biggest Miller light was a was the beer I saw the most Sierra probably next and then Modelo had some But not as much as the numbers would indicate and maybe that's you know Just based on the demos and sheep meadow in Central Park and on a sound on a Saturday afternoon which is probably more to do with that, but yeah, not a Again, no Bud Light, no Of Course Light, a little bit of Modelo. So the leaders in Michelob Ultra did not see that at all out there. So again, Miller Lite was the Gen Z choice of light beer.

[00:27:30] Zoe Licata: What was the package format of choice?

[00:27:35] Sean McNulty: A lot of 12-packs. If you were to picnic with a bunch of friends, so definitely a lot of the White Claw 12-packs, Miller Lite 12-packs. Sierra was more of a six-pack kind of thing. I think that was a little bit smaller. 12-pack cardboard box, just a fun day in the park. There you go.

[00:27:51] Justin Kendall: Well, I will say, you know, to your seltzer point, my mother-in-law's fridge, Michelob Ultra Hard Seltzer.

[00:27:59] Zoe Licata: Interesting. Do they still make that one?

[00:28:02] Justin Kendall: Definitely a thought that crossed my mind.

[00:28:04] Sean McNulty: How old is this? What's the date on those? Can we check? I should have.

[00:28:12] Zoe Licata: Sean is our designated New York and New Jersey person right now. Did you get to be involved in the cheeseball eating fiasco that happened a month ago? Did you get to witness this event?

[00:28:26] Sean McNulty: I generally stay away from anything called cheeseball in Jersey. That's generally maybe that maybe is more Jess. I think she would be fine with me saying that. That may be something more dear to her heart. So no, I missed this. Do you want to fill our audience in on what this might be here, Joey?

[00:28:40] Zoe Licata: Yes, this was a New York thing. This was yes, there was a gathering. I guess it was like three weeks, three or four weeks ago now of a man put out advertisements that he was going to eat a whole container, giant container of cheese balls.

[00:28:53] Sean McNulty: As one does.

[00:28:54] Zoe Licata: It drew a very, very large crowd. Hundreds and hundreds of people came and he did it.

[00:29:00] Sean McNulty: Okay, well, listen, New Yorkers are people of their word. So that will that will go down as a stands for entertainment in New York City these days.

[00:29:08] Zoe Licata: There's plenty of videos out there highly recommend checking them out to just see the size of this crowd that'll come watch a man eat cheese balls, cheese balls. Yes.

[00:29:19] Sean McNulty: Yeah. Puffy. Yeah.

[00:29:21] Zoe Licata: Like you went to Costco and got one of the giant.

[00:29:25] Sean McNulty: Okay. Yeah. So I love the new, uh, social media ads in the newsletter as well. So hope those keep coming. So good, a good idea there. Love that. What do we, what do we call it? What do you call it?

[00:29:34] Zoe Licata: Social stream, I think is what I used last week. We're still working on the title, but yeah.

[00:29:38] Sean McNulty: Still work shopping.

[00:29:39] Zoe Licata: Fair enough. I had to, I had to include some TikTok in the newsletter. If I'm controlling it, I gotta, I gotta add some, what I'm seeing on my FYP.

[00:29:47] Sean McNulty: I vote for more, so loved it.

[00:29:50] Justin Kendall: I look forward to learning more. Anything else I missed?

[00:29:57] Zoe Licata: I think that I think that was the most rebellious thing I did.

[00:30:01] Sean McNulty: Yeah, she didn't do too much to the newsletter about adding another element. Yeah, didn't go too rogue there. So yeah, on the up and up. Good to know.

[00:30:08] Zoe Licata: Next time.

[00:30:10] Justin Kendall: Surprises abound for after a week off. So well, with that, let's get to our featured interview with Broweria co founder Agustin Ruelas and Norwalk Brew founder Ray Ricky Rivera.

[00:30:26] Agustin Ruelas: Breweria co-founder Agustin Ruelas and Norwalk Brew founder Ray Ricky Rivera are here to discuss Los Los Farmworkers, which is the fifth iteration of a collaboration series that benefits nonprofits supporting migrant workers. The program dates back to 2020, but this release is the first time that United Los Farmworkers Union has partnered with the brewery for this particular beer. And we're going to get into all of that. But I thought that was really important to call out right here at the top, especially given with how much focus there's been nationally on labor unions lately. So guys, welcome to the podcast. Thrilled to have you both and to be with you again. I know, you know, we go back a couple of years, so it's lovely to be together. But tell us about this collaboration.

[00:31:07] Norwalk Brew: First off, thank you for the invite. Always excited to talk to the team at Blue Brown. You guys are doing great work. I'm a big fan, been a long time fan. So thank you for having both of us here.

[00:31:18] Agustin Ruelas: Okay. Future guests take note. That is always how you should start your time with us. Beautiful. Thank you.

[00:31:25] Ray Ricky: Well, yes, thank you for having us. Excited to have the opportunity to talk about this beer, talk about our collabs. So, you know, we started, yeah, we did about four others before this. And yes, it was always very kind of local. kind of hyper-local focused. But the first one, right, was Los Vendors. I had been working with the street vendor campaign. And Norwalk Brew, South Central Brewing Company, and Brewhidia came together and we're like, well, let's do something to try to help. Especially this was during the pandemic. And the brewery was closed, it was all pick up to go. And we just thought, oh, you know, this is like a really cool idea. It'd be nice to try to raise some money. And I think we sold out like within a couple of hours. Wow. At that point, we knew like, all right, this is something, you know.

[00:32:15] Agustin Ruelas: So for people who aren't in Southern California, tell us a little bit about the street vendors.

[00:32:20] Ray Ricky: So street vending has been illegal. in Los Angeles County pretty much for, I mean, forever. Obviously it still happens, but I think in the last, I wanna say eight to 10 years, there's been like an organized push to basically change the law, which it has been changed in LA city specifically, but there's still so many barriers where the law is just not clear and also other business owners and brick and mortar spaces don't like the vendors and it's a constant battle. But yeah, so it was illegal, and we thought, hey, street vendors, I knew them, so it was kind of easier to kind of work that out in terms of how do we donate, who do we work with, how do we make this happen, how do we kind of make sure your people also get some of the four packs. And it just kind of went from there. This last one with the UFW, it was actually Lalo Alcaraz who's done the artwork for all five of the iterations. I think it was a third one where he was like, you know, what would be great is if we could work with the United Los Farmworkers. And I was like, oh, wow, that's awesome. Like, he's like, I know somebody, you know, that works there. And so I was like, that sounds awesome. But this was, I want to say, two years ago. And I just don't think we felt that we could make that happen.

[00:33:42] Norwalk Brew: Street vendors are basically like small, tiny ventures. And it's usually undocumented immigrants who are in the streets serving food, serving various drinks during summer. And so those are the types of vendors that we're talking about when we say street vendors. I just kind of want to make that clear. And in some cases, or many cases, you know, it's the people that you see when you're getting off the freeway, and they have flowers, and they have oranges, and these types of products. These are hard workers that are out there daily. And when the pandemic was happening, in the thick of it, when everybody else was shut down safely at home, like I was, these street vendors had no choice but to be out there in a dangerous time, risking their lives, literally, to try and earn a buck to feed their families. Those are the type of street vendors that we mean when we say street vendors.

[00:34:37] Agustin Ruelas: Yeah. And a lot of those like food stands, like I've, I've seen and Zoe, I know I'm sure you have too on all of our trips to LA are sometimes like really like important to the communities that they're in. They're gathering places. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:51] Norwalk Brew: Some of the street vendors, you'll see like they've been on a certain block or a certain intersection for like years and even decades. And they get to know the locals, they get to see kids grow up. And when you're used to seeing a street vendor, years and years and years, when you don't see them there, you question, hey, where did so-and-so go or what's up with him or her? So yeah, they're super important to our neighborhoods out here in Los Angeles.

[00:35:19] Agustin Ruelas: So putting all of this in context of, you know, the time and the people for the first collab makes a ton of sense. And now we're on Los Los Farmworkers. And what can you guys tell us about the work that went into this with getting the UFW in on the project?

[00:35:35] Norwalk Brew: The idea came up with Lalo. It's safe to say that we all have been big supporters of the United Los Farmworkers and their work over the years. But Lalo was the one who kind of brought the idea forward and was like, it'd be great to work with the Los Farmworkers. And so I think each of us kind of went back to our own networks and tried to make contact with UFW. Lalo had some contacts. Agustin knew somebody who knew somebody. I, as well, knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody. So what we learned was the United Los Farmworkers don't just work with anybody. You know, you have to be aligned and in tune with their mission. And so there is a process when you wanna work with the Los Farmworkers, you wanna collaborate, you wanna use their IP, you do actually have to file for a license. So that was news to us. And so I think what ended up happening, and Agustin could jump in here, Agustin made contact with, I believe it was like maybe one of the presidents. There's like several people in leadership over there with the union. So there's like multiple presidents, multiple VPs. Agustin made contact. and then started that process. And really it was Agustin who led the effort to bring them on board because he had to explain to them like, look, hey, this is not like a super macro beer product. Like we're small Latino owned breweries. And Agustin, you want to talk about how you had to explain what this was to the UFW?

[00:37:06] Ray Ricky: Sure. Yeah, so it was this long form that we had to submit to them. And then they reached out and they were like, well, yeah, what exactly are you guys trying to do? So I sent them all the labels for the four previous iterations and explained to them, hey, we did this release with the organization together to benefit. Right. And so we explained to them how it worked, that a portion of proceeds basically would go back to the organization. And so instead of them charging us that licensing fee, they basically gave us a license knowing that they were going to get this donation in return. But then also, I mean, once we explained kind of everything, and yes, that we were small Latino-owned breweries, I mean, they just were like super excited about it and wanted to do it. And, you know, they're in Central California, Northern California, and they're like, oh, you know, we wish we could be there. But they did have definitely some local representation. And actually, I mean, I'm maybe getting ahead of myself here, but at the release, I did meet another one of their, I think it was a treasurer, And they asked us, you know, I mean, they saw how just successful it was. I mean, the brewery was just bustling and four packs were just flying out the door. And he asked if we could do it again in September for their national United Los Farmworkers Convention. I was like, absolutely. You know, like, tell us when you need it by.

[00:38:30] Agustin Ruelas: That's amazing.

[00:38:32] Ray Ricky: It was awesome to hear that for them to say like, yes, this was a great thing. And we appreciate what you guys did. And we want you know, we want to do it again, and show our members right that this is something that can be done.

[00:38:43] Agustin Ruelas: That's great. I mean, this organization is so like, it can't be overstated how important they are to you know, the history of organized labor in this country and that you guys have been able to work with them and you had to do a little education on, you know, what a craft beer collaboration is and all of that, but so, so cool. Was this just at the brewery?

[00:39:05] Ray Ricky: So the release itself was at the brewery. And then we also have a, we're opening up, Breweria is opening up a second location. So we do have some available there as well. And then we started shipping it last week.

[00:39:18] Agustin Ruelas: Cool.

[00:39:19] Ray Ricky: So it's been going. Yeah. It's funny, like seeing all these cities I've never heard of, right? Like, because it's all, you know, Central California and Northern California. obviously agricultural cities, right, or towns. And so it's great to see that people from all over the state want to have this in their hands. I mean, somebody reached out to me last week and said, can I just have a label? Like, I just want to have something that shows that this happened, you know?

[00:39:45] Zoe Licata: That's so cool. So you've gone basically the first iteration of this series was super, super local because it was like directly addressing something that like it's been talked about in LA about we got to like support people here with the farm stands and everything. Now, this is technically a national organization, something that people across the country can understand what's happening. Did you have to do anything? I know you're still selling this locally, but did you have to market it any differently or did you have to make any adjustments for working or helping something that was super hyperlocal to something that might be more broadly understood?

[00:40:25] Norwalk Brew: I'm going to say no, mostly because the support that these releases have received so far, it's basically our target consumer. And when I say our, that includes Norwalk Brew, South Central Brewing Company, Breweria Company, and the artist Lalo. There's a lot of overlap there in terms of, you know, who's looking at these brands and who's supporting these brands. And those are the people that want to support these releases. And so the consumers, the customers, they really do a great job of getting the word out on our behalf. You know, everybody's retweeting, reposting, resharing, all of those things on social media. And really, there's a big word of mouth push. And working with the United Los Farmworkers, I think we knew going into this that this was going to be exciting for a lot of people. A lot of people were going to be kind of surprised to see this. Like, wait, the United Los Farmworkers and these breweries? Like, what? And so that kind of shock is like, that piques people's interest. And then the people who just generally want to support good causes, who want to get behind Los Farmworkers and unions in general, that's a large portion of the people that follow our brands. we knew those people were going to be excited. And we're small, so we don't have like a press team, you know, there's no publicists on staff or any of us, you know, it's all of us together getting the word out, drafting our own press releases. So we knew like somebody was going to be interested in the story in terms of media coverage. And that's why we're talking about it here today. But I don't think we have to like change the approach or the marketing. And because the United Los Farmworkers is so storied and so historical, like you just put that out there and it takes off on its own.

[00:42:10] Ray Ricky: For sure. I would add too, though, to that, that, again, all of these collabs have been working with these organizations. And so, yes, the United Los Farmworkers being such a large national organization, when they basically promoted it on their social media, it blew up that much more. That post for them was probably their biggest post in the last couple of months. And people started following, you know, the three breweries and started asking already, like, when can we get it? So that's always been a big part of it, too, is that the organizations themselves are excited about it. And not only the benefit of it, but like the fact that they get to promote, you know, their work, that we raise awareness. It's just, yeah, it's a lot of things that people can kind of, I guess, say, you know what, this is why I want to support this.

[00:42:59] Norwalk Brew: Yeah, you know, it's been really interesting to see, because this hasn't been done before, like there's no Latino-owned breweries working with the United Los Farmworkers, supporting the cause. But a lot of people are familiar with the history of the United Los Farmworkers. So there's been some folks who will come onto our social media pages and they're confused. And some of them almost don't even like the fact that beer companies are working with the United Los Farmworkers. They just don't get it. And they're like, this doesn't make sense to me that this union is working with this beer company. Because when they think about beer, they're thinking about the big macro companies that are they don't really have a presence in our neighborhood other than their products at the local liquor store, you know what I mean? They're not out here supporting the Los Farmworkers. And so that's been really interesting to see. And I think we all, all of us involved, expected to receive some, not so much backlash, but people who are like, what the hell is this? Like, this doesn't make sense kind of thing. So for me, I think that's been really interesting to see play out a little bit.

[00:44:01] Zoe Licata: Yeah. There can be a lot of skepticism sometimes around these sort of cause-based collaborations. Our friend Kate Bernat has done a story, she did it in 2020, analyzing what... There were so many happening at that time. And she said sometimes they can be seen as, quote, a Band-Aid on a gaping wound. You know, like what is the actual impact of this? People question that. So how are you making sure it connects with consumers that this is a really authentic and impactful mission? It's not just something you're throwing out there.

[00:44:38] Norwalk Brew: And from my perspective, I think it's super important to let people know who's behind the collaborations. And once they learn about our stories, our brand stories and where we come from. One of the cool things, and we talked about this a little bit more when we did the first collab, was all of us, Agustin and the team at Brujeria, Norwalk Brew, South Central Brewing Company, we all come from the SoCal Cerveceros Homebrew Club. So we're actually friends. We've all gone through and continue to go through the struggles of starting a small business. We're doing the best we can to give back to the neighborhoods we do business in. And I think it's important to tell that story and let the consumer know who we are and what we're about. We're not this faceless conglomerate. We're not backed by venture capitalists. So I think telling that as part of the story is super important and getting that message across to the public that lets them know like, oh, these are like genuine business owners. These are genuine people who really just want to give back and do their best to help.

[00:45:43] Ray Ricky: You know, this is not something that we, you know, just did once or, you know, like we're talking about today, that this is like the fifth generation. I mean, this is something that at least for, for again, for all three of us and even all the so-called custodians that are working to start their own small business, giving back has always been part of our mission of our business purpose. So people see this happening several times every year where we do these kinds of collabs. And so I don't think at least our followers, right, again, like what Ray said about we all know each other, we're in the same groups, we're all trying to support each other. So they keep seeing this happening and it's like, yeah, and the organizations that we work with also have a positive experience and we get to donate money and again, keep helping the community so that it's something that just keeps happening over and over that we do intentionally. So I think people just already know that we're not coming from a negative place.

[00:46:41] Zoe Licata: Yeah. And it's integrated into your business, basically, year-round. So, like, the similar missions and just who you guys even are, like, representing this brewery, having Latino-owned breweries, like, this is, like, part of what your brewery brand identities are, right, is just, like, supporting your communities. And so I think people can recognize when something is just, like, a one-time thing and something's actually, like, you just are continuing to do your business in the same way you do year-round.

[00:47:10] Norwalk Brew: Yeah, I think now the people who know about our brands and buy our products, once they see another beer come out, they're like, oh yeah, of course they're doing that. It's the people that haven't been following, that are just getting wind of who we are and what we're doing. Those are the people that we have to convert and tell our story to them. Those newer people are probably like, wait, what is this and who are they? Are they actually doing what they say they're doing? I think, Jess, you mentioned earlier how previous bigger breweries had issues with doing collaborations and actually getting funds to the organizations they say that they're supporting. I've done many of those collabs prior to the stuff I'm doing with Agustin and his brewery, and it's hard working with breweries. And I'll say in my experience, some of the breweries their intentions are great and good, and the business just sometimes may not allow for them to make that donation. They do the work, they put the word out there, they release the beer, and for whatever reason, they sometimes just can't get that money to that organization. And then there's other breweries who just forget to make the donation, and so it's a lot of work. I definitely tip my hat to Agustin and his team and everybody over there, because they stick to their word. They say we're going to make a donation and they make the donation. And that's why we continue to do these projects. And that's why I, for one, continue to be involved, because I know I'm working with good people who keep their word. So important.

[00:48:43] Agustin Ruelas: You know, I was working at Sam Adams at the time of Resilience, which was, you know, Sierra's big relief fund for that terrible wildfire. And they just kept sending emails that were clearly going to everybody that had signed up to participate, but they were kind of like, hey, you need to donate. And I was panicking. I was like, oh my God, did they not get it? Did we not do it? And like, we of course did it, but I was just so like, ugh. So yeah, I mean, you know, the way this industry is, there's such a huge community feeling, but it's kind of like herding cats. It makes sense. I mean, you both brought up SoCal Cerveceros, and I'm so glad you did. That's the homebrew club that you both grew out of, but you've got a lot of fellow alums who have turned pro. So how many, you know, how many craft brewers in your area have come from the club now? I know Brady talked about this years ago, but has anybody else joined the ranks since then?

[00:49:36] Norwalk Brew: I used to keep closer tabs, but we're so busy and there's so many, like there's a ton of members. I don't even know, I've never even met. I've been so, like, my head down in my own business.

[00:49:47] Agustin Ruelas: Yeah, that means you have, like, a million things to do.

[00:49:50] Norwalk Brew: But I think it's over 12, maybe under 20, since, I want to say, like, 2019-ish. That's amazing. I'm not entirely sure. I wrote a story for Good Beer Hunting on the club, I want to say a year or two ago, maybe two years ago now, and I actually counted and reached out and confirmed some numbers. And I think it was 10 when I wrote that story two years ago. And there's been a couple since then at least. So yeah, somewhere between a dozen and 20, somewhere in there. Yeah.

[00:50:22] Agustin Ruelas: And the club is just such a huge success story for both homebrewing and craft beer. What a great community that formed. Oh, thank you. And I agree.

[00:50:32] Ray Ricky: And it all started on Facebook.

[00:50:35] Agustin Ruelas: Did it really? Wow. That's like the one good thing Facebook has done for society.

[00:50:41] Norwalk Brew: Amazing. But yeah, I think that the club is also a reflection on what's happening in Los Angeles. And I've said this many times on many podcasts, there's roughly, what, five million Latinos in Los Angeles. So something like a SoCal Cerveceros, I believe, could only happen here because there's so many of us, right? So many Mexican-Americans, so many Latinos. And of course, today, the SoCal Cerveceros are a super diverse group, not just for Latinos. It's diverse, there's various people in the club. But back when we started it in 2015, when it was still very new, and we started to see members join, like more people just coming out. From there to now, you see the growth of the LA beer scene and the industry in general. It's like Latinos have a lot to do about it. And it just goes to show you that We drink craft beer, we buy craft beer, and we make craft beer. And yeah, I've been saying it for a while, that Latinos are gonna be the next wave in craft beer. We haven't quite hit that wave, but I still think it's on its way.

[00:51:49] Agustin Ruelas: Yeah, it's gotta be coming, especially when you look at the trends of macro beer. Yeah, oh yeah. So that just makes sense, yeah.

[00:51:58] Zoe Licata: all we're talking about when it just comes to positivity and growth in beer is just the amount of growth in imports, and particularly blowing everyone out of the water is Mexican imports or anything that's inspired by... Even in F&Bs, flavors inspired by mango and spice are super popular right now, and those are flavors that we know come from those Latino consumers. So it's speaking to a lot of trends that are happening right now. I feel like it makes a lot of sense. There should be some more stuff happening in craft.

[00:52:35] Norwalk Brew: Yeah. And the rest of us are like, we've been trying to tell you we've been drinking, we've been pulling from these flavors forever.

[00:52:43] Agustin Ruelas: Ketchup. Well, so speaking of flavors, why don't you guys tell us about the beer itself? Because we actually haven't touched on that yet.

[00:52:50] Ray Ricky: So it's Great American wheat ale with pineapple and mango.

[00:52:54] Agustin Ruelas: Delicious.

[00:52:55] Ray Ricky: And initially, right, the idea was it's for the street vendors and it was a fruit cart. And that was the worker that was depicted on the label. And so we're like, oh, that's that kind of makes sense. You know, a fruit cart, a wheat beer. So we just went with it. And I mean, it came out amazing. But it was just so good that we decided that would just be the flavor regardless of the organization or the group that we were working with.

[00:53:21] Norwalk Brew: That's cool. Yeah. So the beer recipe is pretty much stayed the same for each release. And we just add a new label.

[00:53:29] Agustin Ruelas: Awesome. I mean, that helps with the complexity.

[00:53:32] Zoe Licata: Yeah. I feel like that makes a lot of sense too, just for, I don't know, like consumers are going to want to buy beer that they really want to try too, even like regardless of the cause or not. So to know that you're giving them something they know that they're looking for and you have this addition of this is actually really benefiting people is going to really help more people be like, yeah, I want that all day.

[00:53:55] Ray Ricky: And also we've tried working with orgs to come up with recipes, right? And I mean, They're not craft beer people. And sometimes they'll suggest ingredients that we're just like, that doesn't, that's not, that's not a beer ingredient, you know? So I think it's, it's easier to not even have, have them have to worry about what type of beer. And again, the beer itself is amazing though. So it's not, not so much that we're not thinking about the beers, just that it came out so good the first time that we've been replicating it ever since.

[00:54:27] Norwalk Brew: Yeah, they definitely have dialed in the recipe. So from those vendors to those Los Farmworkers, the recipe just, it's tightened up. It's delicious.

[00:54:36] Agustin Ruelas: I mean, why mess with a good thing?

[00:54:38] SPEAKER_??: Yeah.

[00:54:39] Agustin Ruelas: Amazing. Well, it's always so great to chat with both of you. It was lovely to hear about this collaboration. We can't wait to see if it resurrects itself in the fall. Congrats on working with the UFW. What a storied group. You guys should be so proud.

[00:54:54] Ray Ricky: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having us again.

[00:54:57] Agustin Ruelas: Oh, of course. It was our pleasure.

[00:55:00] Justin Kendall: And that's our show for this week. Thanks to Zoe for holding down everything at Brewbound the last week. Thanks to our special guest co-host, Sean McNulty. Thanks to all of you for listening. We'll be back next week.